Making tough choices on a gish build

[SinDreamer]

Hey everyone,

I'm taking part of a new game starting from level 1.
The other party members are:
Elf Mystic Archer from the new compendium book
Half Elf Draconic Bloodrager
Human Paladin
Me

We will also have a few players that may bounce in and out of sessions:
Bard
Rogue
Druid
Undecided

The mystic archer is the only experienced player, and I have some knowledge, but I am new.

I'm pretty committed to an Elf gish build, but I wanted some advice for a weapon and feats.

Everyone rolled for their stats so I've got:

Elf with:
STR: 11
DEX: 19
CON: 15
INT: 20
WIS: 12
CHA: 14

Traits: Magical Knack, Student of Philosophy, Sentimental, Warrior of Old

My planned build is Arcanist 1, Swashbuckler 2, Arcanist 3-7, Eldritch Knight 8-17, then 3 classes of something else.

Current build plan is (open to changes):
1: Arcanist (blade adept) - Bond Wakizashi, Feat: Extend
2: Arcanist (blade adept)
3: Arcanist (blade adept) - Empower Spell
4: Arcanist (blade adept)
5: Arcanist (blade adept) - Dimensional Slide, Extra Exploit - Quick Study
6: Swashbuckler (I need to ask the DM if I could use the Ronin Archetype)
7: Arcanist (blade adept) - Leadership
8: Eldritch Knight - Deadly Aim
9: Eldritch Knight - Extra Exploit Eldritch Blade
10: Eldritch Knight
11: Eldritch Knight - Maximize Spell
12: Eldritch Knight - Improved Critical: Wakizashi
13: Eldritch Knight - Extra Exploit - Magus Arcana Arcane Accuracy
14: Eldritch Knight
15: Eldritch Knight - Spell Perfection (Telekinesis)
16: Eldritch Knight - Weapon Focus: Wakizashi
17: Eldritch Knight - Critical Focus
18: Weapon Specialist: Wakizashi
19: Bleeding Critical? Blinding Critical? Greater Weapon Focus?
20:

Due to story reasons, I have to start as my spellcaster class or risk not having enough spells (we will be finding our spells rather than leveling up, so I won't start with any if I level up into it).

From the looks of it, my role in the group is the 9th level spells, being the face (I'm a noble in the group), and essentially be a middle line. This way I can cast heavy spells as needed or wade in with the front line assuming I have bracers of armor or mage armor for early game.
Leadership is for kingdom building and potentially explain the players that would bounce in and out.
We haven't worked out how crafting would work here or if anyone would get it.
I'm told that we are going to be on a boat at some time.

I plan on maxing, Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft, and Diplomacy.
What ranks should the rest of my knowledge skills, fly, bluff, and acrobatics should be?

My build is leaning towards the Telekinesis spam build, hence the chosen metamagic, though I am worried about the lack of quicken.

I'm partial on the blade adept as the sword is great for roleplaying, and may be necessary if I am getting thrown off the boat. Also it lets me get Arcane Accuracy.
Does arcane accuracy double from spell perfection?

I went with Wakizashi's because I was concerned that we may run into something that we may need to vorpal, so I wanted weapons that I can throw that can vorpal.

This build is eating up large number of my feats, as inspired blade would open up a feat slot, but the gm would not let me change from rapier to Wakizashi. So any advice on feat management would help.

Would it be better to take a different Martial?
I chose swashbuckler for the parrying and dodging for combat and the Derring-Do to make up for my weaker strength (again boat).
What about focusing on a different weapon?

What should the last 3 levels be, either more arcanist or prestige classes?

Any recommendations on 3.5 prestige classes? The gm mentioned that if he had the book, we may be able to convert it.

I've been looking at Spell Sword, which would allow me to have armor but needs more armor feats, and Dragon Slayer but that needs dodge and iron will.

Note: I've been calling this the Noctis build after FFXV, as that's the theme I was focusing on for the game. I'd appreciate any recommendations on this end, even if it's for roleplaying.

People on another board mentioned that my group lacks a dedicated healer, blaster caster, and a tank. While the game will be more role playing focused, is the group really missing that much?

[SpamCreateWater]

First off, nice rolls!


People on another board mentioned that my group lacks a dedicated healer, blaster caster, and a tank. While the game will be more role playing focused, is the group really missing that much?

I'll leave the build advice to those more experienced, but those listed things are not needed.
Healing can be done via scrolls and wands, and is (usually) more optimal when done out of combat.
Having a tank is an MMORPG thing - in D&D the enemies are (again, usually) gifted with some form of rudimentary intelligence that says, "Kill the weak looking one that makes fire/dragons/walls appear from nowhere."
Blaster Caster can be done by the non-magical folk - it's sometimes the only thing they can do. As a spellcaster you are (or can be) above HP damage. Summon things to do the damage for you, change the battlefield to suit your parties needs, trap the enemies in a suddenly-appearing mudpit.

[Kurald Galain]

Wait.

You're starting at level one and worried about 9th level spells. How long do you think it'll take your campaign to reach level 17, or will it even get there in the first place? It may be good to focus on lower-level abilities. Also, note that for the purpose of damaging enemies, Telekinesis really isn't a very good spell; are you sure you want to compete with a dedicated blaster caster like that?

Either way, this handbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) should give you some more ideas for feats.

[Eldariel]

Telekinesis isn't bad at all as a damage spell vs. low/mid AC targets. GMW a bunch of Colossal Arrows/Bolts (one casting suffices) and launch 'em all in a volley. Even colossal Arrows and Bolts go nicely under the weight limit with good damage and you get 50 per GMW. Add buffs to taste, optionally with Beads of Karma and other CL buffs.

[Florian]

Hey everyone,

People on another board mentioned that my group lacks a dedicated healer, blaster caster, and a tank. While the game will be more role playing focused, is the group really missing that much?

Your core group already has three damage "heavies" (hopefully the Pally is not the sword and board kind, that doesn't really work for that class). That should normally be sufficient to flatten anything in record time, provided it can be pinned down long enough for the melee types to full attack.

Problem that I see is that the other characters will continuously rise in raw power, while your character will take baby steps in developing the combat style and seriously lose in the spellcasting department, already skipping 3 caster levels for very limited gain. In addition, while aiming for a vorpal weapon might be cool, it only triggers on a natural 20 and you still have to pass the confirmation roll, a thing that your character might have trouble with.

Coming back to the previous point, your party is apparently lacking in consistent battlefield control, which also means reducing/negating incoming damage so a Paladins healing ability will not be overwhelmed.

[Kurald Galain]

Telekinesis isn't bad at all as a damage spell vs. low/mid AC targets.

Yeah, so "not bad vs some targets" means that it's not a good choice when you've got a dedicated blaster in the party already (the 18d6+36 damage of Empowered Scorching Ray easily trumps the DPR of telekinesis).

Plus, if the purpose of your build is to be an artillery character, why would you spend levels on a gish?

[Eldariel]

Yeah, so "not bad vs some targets" means that it's not a good choice when you've got a dedicated blaster in the party already (the 18d6+36 damage of Empowered Scorching Ray easily trumps the DPR of telekinesis).

Plus, if the purpose of your build is to be an artillery character, why would you spend levels on a gish?

Uh, a CL 12 Telekinesis can hurl 12 Colossal Bolts. Colossal Bolt is 1d4 > 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6. Cast Greater Magic Weapon for +3-+4 on each. Now you're doing 36d6+72 each casting for instance. It's not bad.

[SinDreamer]

Hey Everyone!

Thanks for taking the time to give advice!


Wait.

You're starting at level one and worried about 9th level spells. How long do you think it'll take your campaign to reach level 17, or will it even get there in the first place? It may be good to focus on lower-level abilities. Also, note that for the purpose of damaging enemies, Telekinesis really isn't a very good spell; are you sure you want to compete with a dedicated blaster caster like that?

I like theory crafting a lot, so I end up doing this when building in any game. The game's plan is to go 1-20. Although you do bring up a point that it is possible to retrain.


Uh, a CL 12 Telekinesis can hurl 12 Colossal Bolts. Colossal Bolt is 1d4 > 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6. Cast Greater Magic Weapon for +3-+4 on each. Now you're doing 36d6+72 each casting for instance. It's not bad.

I'm hoping to surprise the DM with 12 Colossal mythril wakizashis for 48d6 + 72. If this is backed by Arcane accuracy, that should be pretty good, right? Or is the damage too low?


Your core group already has three damage "heavies" (hopefully the Pally is not the sword and board kind, that doesn't really work for that class). That should normally be sufficient to flatten anything in record time, provided it can be pinned down long enough for the melee types to full attack.

Problem that I see is that the other characters will continuously rise in raw power, while your character will take baby steps in developing the combat style and seriously lose in the spellcasting department, already skipping 3 caster levels for very limited gain. In addition, while aiming for a vorpal weapon might be cool, it only triggers on a natural 20 and you still have to pass the confirmation roll, a thing that your character might have trouble with.

Coming back to the previous point, your party is apparently lacking in consistent battlefield control, which also means reducing/negating incoming damage so a Paladins healing ability will not be overwhelmed.

I had considered the white mage archetype to help with healing.

[Eldariel]

Hey Everyone!

Thanks for taking the time to give advice!

I'm hoping to surprise the DM with 12 Colossal mythril wakizashis for 48d6 + 72. If this is backed by Arcane accuracy, that should be pretty good, right? Or is the damage too low?

Yeah though mind the expenses and weight. Arrows are convenient in that you can GMW 50 at a time and just use normal arrows that are almost free. Not to mention all the Abundant Ammunition tricks you can do to kinda just buff the whole volley (Greater Named Bullet...).

And yes, ways to make your volleys hit are obviously nice (that said, Telekinesis uses casting stat by default so that helps).


I had considered the white mage archetype to help with healing.

Honestly, between Infernal Healing and Summon Monster 3 ->, arcane casters have healing covered just fine. Just master the Summon list.

More important is preparing and casting battlefield control, debuffs and disables (Grease, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Slow, etc.) as necessary to take down the enemies or cut them to manageable chunks.


Ultimately I'd probably roll a Wizard just for the faster spell progression (if you lose caster levels, it becomes all the more critical). Also I'd burn the two feats on Prestigious Spellcaster to keep full progression. And probably only take a single level of any martial class at least until hitting 9th level spells. There's nothing as useful as higher spell levels in the game and I'd loathe to give them up for any reason. Prestigious Spellcaster makes getting 19/20 with 16+ BAB pretty easy

[SinDreamer]

Yeah though mind the expenses and weight. Arrows are convenient in that you can GMW 50 at a time and just use normal arrows that are almost free. Not to mention all the Abundant Ammunition tricks you can do to kinda just buff the whole volley (Greater Named Bullet...).

And yes, ways to make your volleys hit are obviously nice (that said, Telekinesis uses casting stat by default so that helps).



Honestly, between Infernal Healing and Summon Monster 3 ->, arcane casters have healing covered just fine. Just master the Summon list.

More important is preparing and casting battlefield control, debuffs and disables (Grease, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Slow, etc.) as necessary to take down the enemies or cut them to manageable chunks.


Ultimately I'd probably roll a Wizard just for the faster spell progression (if you lose caster levels, it becomes all the more critical). Also I'd burn the two feats on Prestigious Spellcaster to keep full progression. And probably only take a single level of any martial class at least until hitting 9th level spells. There's nothing as useful as higher spell levels in the game and I'd loathe to give them up for any reason. Prestigious Spellcaster makes getting 19/20 with 16+ BAB pretty easy

You're right about the arrows. I'll carry some around.

For spells, I was going to focus on battlefield control and summoning.

I'd considered an exploiter wizard/regular arcanist with magus vmc to keep dimensional slide, quick study, and arcane accuracy. This opens up feats to build into arcane archer or hellknight signifer.

Would it be better to just go with the longsword build? Colossal sawtoothed sabres deal 6d6 and has 19-20 crit. If I have to use arcane accuracy to hit, this would help in the damage department.
What AC's am I expecting at later levels?
Should I just go with rapier and give up on the 30 attack vorpal dream instead?

What was your idea for the 19/20 spellcasting and 16+ BAB?

[Eldariel]

You're right about the arrows. I'll carry some around.

For spells, I was going to focus on battlefield control and summoning.

I'd considered an exploiter wizard/regular arcanist with magus vmc to keep dimensional slide, quick study, and arcane accuracy. This opens up feats to build into arcane archer or hellknight signifer.

Would it be better to just go with the longsword build? Colossal sawtoothed sabres deal 6d6 and has 19-20 crit. If I have to use arcane accuracy to hit, this would help in the damage department.
What AC's am I expecting at later levels?
Should I just go with rapier and give up on the 30 attack vorpal dream instead?

What was your idea for the 19/20 spellcasting and 16+ BAB?

It's too bad Exploiter Wizard gives up Arcane School which prohibits access to Acadamae Graduate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/local-feats/acadamae-graduate-local/), which in turn is kinda big for summoning. As for 19/20 and 16+ you need two PRCs; e.g. X 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard +1/Hellknight Signifer 3 (19/16) or Arcane Archer 3 with Prestigious Spellcaster (19/17). Of course, 18/16 off X 1/Wizard 5/EK 10/Wizard +3/X +1 has way more feats to use so that's nice. I like Ranger [e.g. Poison Darter or Freebooter] as the X; access to good Wands, tons of skill points, good list, some handy minor stuff. Barbarian is also good for speed and a bunch of extra physical rounds but that's kinda whatever. Certainly better for summoning and casting but obviously missing out on Int to hit a few times per day can hurt (and the like). Though you can make do, of course. Conjurer with Teleportation alternative class feature matches up nicely with Dimensional Dervish for example, though being limited to 15' a turn isn't all that amazing of course.

Eh, weapon, kinda whatever. Most work. The Vorpal Dream is fine but mind that it'll take forever to get there; Vorpal itself is not the cheapest though so that means planning far down the line. All of those are workable; just pick whichever you prefer.