Polymorph subschool nerfs Polymorph?

[Anthrowhale]

The Polymorph subschool (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5) was added late in 3.5, with all Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) based spells retrofitted to be in the subschool. People have generally ignored this, but if you don't it seems there's a significant nerf embedded in this change. The key bit is this:

The target loses all of ... its class features...
Stripping away all class features is a pretty incredible drawback making the use of polymorph subschool spells troublesome. There is a caveat though:

...the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.
As a consequence, we need to examine the spell text carefully.

With respect to class, Alter Self says:

Your class and level... all remain the same.
which isn't relevant since the Polymorph Subschool says you lose class features not that you lose the class. We also have:

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels...
which implies that just extraordinary special attacks and qualities from class level are preserved. The subschool defaults therefore imply that class features that are not Extraordinary Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) are not preserved. Nothing higher up in the Polymorph line of spells appears to alter this outcome. The key change here is from class features kept by default (as per PHB rules) to class features lost by default (as per polymorph subschool rules).

That means Spells are lost! Many other class features like Sneak Attack and Bardic Music are also lost.

The obvious implication here is that Wizards gishing by Alter Self/Polymorph are nerfed, since they lose the ability to cast spells. That's not the end of the world---the spells remain useful for utility and other niches with Shapechange remaining extremely strong due to the large library of possible Supernatural racial traits. Classes based on Ex abilities (like Barbarian) benefit relatively well from Polymorph.

So, is there a flaw in this logic? I'm aware of "The PHB is the primary source for these spells so later books cannot alter the PHB definition." but nothing else.

[flappeercraft]

Actually according to the description of the Polymorph Subschool


Spells That Have Come Before

For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).

You can see it yourself here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5)

[Anthrowhale]

You can see it yourself here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5)
I totally agree---that's why I quoted the same text and discussed the text of Alter Self.

[Troacctid]

I think you've tunneled on that one line and forgotten some others.


You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

[...]

You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

[Anthrowhale]

I think you've tunneled on that one line and forgotten some others.

Good. So Ex, Su, Sp, and spells are retained using the other lines. What about class features which are none of these? For example, sneak attack?

[Necroticplague]

Good. So Ex, Su, Sp, and spells are retained using the other lines. What about class features which are none of these? For example, sneak attack?
You keep those.

Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You still have the class level, so you still have all the benefits of that class, which includes all its abilities.

[zergling.exe]

You keep those.
You still have the class level, so you still have all the benefits of that class, which includes all its abilities.

The problem is that the Polymorph subschool in the PHB2 strips you of class features except where a spell permits you to have them. So just because you have the class levels, doesn't mean you keep the class features, since they were taken away. They have to be given back by the spell.


The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features).

[Crake]

I'm pretty sure the purpose of the polymorph subschool was to remove the need to re-write the same text for every single polymorph based spell, to provide a baseline that can be referenced. It's purpose was not to alter how old spells work, and since the old spells were not re-written to include the few specific corner cases that the subschool introduced (such as class features that were not Ex, Su or Sp) I would just run the old spells, ignoring the polymorph subschool rules, just for your own sanity.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm pretty sure the purpose of the polymorph subschool was to remove the need to re-write the same text for every single polymorph based spell, to provide a baseline that can be referenced. It's purpose was not to alter how old spells work, and since the old spells were not re-written to include the few specific corner cases that the subschool introduced (such as class features that were not Ex, Su or Sp) I would just run the old spells, ignoring the polymorph subschool rules, just for your own sanity.

I agree this is the sane and plausible RAI. The RAW of losing non-{Ex,Su,Sp,Spell} class abilities primarily degrades polymorph utility for relatively mundane classes which doesn't seem particularly desirable.