How to Deal with a Chaotic Evil Druid (who is also your relative?)

[steinmon1920518]

Recently it came to my attention that the Druid of one of my groups was the direct instigator of torturing a captured NPC (an act that is designated unconditionally Evil).
Problem is, she is C"N" and has made her entire backstory out as though she were a Chaotic "Good" character.
When I attempt to encourage her to play to the character she created (even creating in-game opportunities to cultivate that) she blows me off and proceeds down the most destructive path she can find.
To add icing to the cake, Druid's cannot leave some form of Neutral alignment, and I have recently discussed this with her, but again, she seems to think that she hold a double standard with with her character (saying her character is CN leaning Good, but acting full-blown CE) when the D&D alignment system doesn't hold to double standards, something I have gone over in-depth with her.
I'd like to deal with this calmly, but every discussion we have is her digging a deeper hole (what's more, we're closely related, so I'm trying to avoid the "play by the rules or beat it" scenario)
I don't mind her playing Evil (we currently have a Viking-esque LE gracing the NG, CG, CN ranks of our group; playing to his character and alignment like a boss), but she won't let go of calling her character "good" at heart when her actions say otherwise, and she refuses to remain the partial Neutral alignment that is required of the Druid class.

Your thoughts and insights most appreciated on how to deal with this calmly and to the betterment of the group.

[Nifft]

One or two Evil actions won't necessarily make a character turn Evil in terms of alignment, though a single Evil action is certainly enough to violate a Code of Conduct (which a Paladin would have, and a Druid would not).

It's up to the DM to decide when a character's overall behavior changes his or her alignment.

Are you the DM?

[Falontani]

So she is playing someone that is misguided, who believes their actions to be good when they are in fact evil. And since she is very much in the chaotic she will begin to lose her druidic powers. I suggest a paladin blackguard scenario; Druid/Blighter or even Druid/Talontar Blightlord.

Another way you can show her alignment slowly degrading could be to have nearby plants begin to wilt in her presence. I know you've talked to her out of character and she has disregarded your warnings, so at this point you should either show in game that her druidic powers are slowly being lost, drop her powers fully, wait until she levels and then give her a level in blighter instead of druid, or do the worst one I can think of, DM character reposession. Take her character away as an NPC, tell her she'll get the character back at a later date, but at this time she needs to design a different character.

Or do something else, these are just ideas. Perhaps take her character away, then take her aside and tell her you'll run a solo adventure with her on that character. Advance the solo adventure at the same rate as the rest of the party and then reintroduce her character when it has gained enough evil prowess to not be super weak.

[steinmon1920518]

One or two Evil actions won't necessarily make a character turn Evil in terms of alignment, though a single Evil action is certainly enough to violate a Code of Conduct (which a Paladin would have, and a Druid would not).
Are you the DM?

The problem isn't just the torture (as I've had Good Clerics overlook fullblown genocide, but they did so to protect the group from also dying) but the continuous acts of Evil she instigates (attacking bystanders and NPC's cause they're in her Druid "bubble" namely) and her disregard for me explaining why a Druid has to remain some form of Neutral. I don't mind her becoming NE (and would gladly alter her background to suit such purpose), but ahe insists her character is CN with G tendancies while she acts out the role of the CE.
And I can't seem to get anything through to her in that regard

[steinmon1920518]

So she is playing someone that is misguided, who believes their actions to be good when they are in fact evil. And since she is very much in the chaotic she will begin to lose her druidic powers. I suggest a paladin blackguard scenario; Druid/Blighter or even Druid/Talontar Blightlord.

Would I insert these prestige levels even if she doesn't have the requirements? Or alter some of her own work so that she meets the requirements?

[KillianHawkeye]

attacking bystanders and NPC's cause they're in her Druid "bubble" namely

Can you explain what this means exactly? :smallconfused:

[Remuko]

A druid can become CE. She just loses her powers and cant advance in Druid levels anymore. Have you told her that? "If you keep doing this you alignment will change to Chaotic Evil regardless of how you or your character feel about these actions youre commiting, and if you become CE you lose your Druid powers and cant gain any more levels in Druid." Did you tell her that? If you didnt, do so, if you did, then you already warned her. Start putting it into effect if she doesnt change. Then when she becomes CE dont let any of her Druid powers work and when she levels up dont let her take more Druid levels. She will have to do something at that point.

[steinmon1920518]

Can you explain what this means exactly? :smallconfused:

An NPC gets to close for too long and her character either pushes them into harms way (people have been run over by wagons or trampled by horses on a few occassions) or personally does the harming ("lethal" harm, not "twist your arm cause your hitting on me" harm). Most issues end up solved because the others in the group stop the commotion, but its exceeded the line of repeat offender.
And NPC harm is just one "namely" act that comes to mind. Among others, casting spells that she knows can harm her companions, leaving her Animal Companion to die (right next to her I might add) as she chases down an enemy that is already long out of sight, and attempting to find a subject to use Contagion on because "it's a spell she can cast"

Thoughts? I may be nit-picky, but like I've posted, I already attempted to discuss these things with her

[steinmon1920518]

"If you keep doing this you alignment will change to Chaotic Evil regardless of how you or your character feel about these actions youre commiting, and if you become CE you lose your Druid powers and cant gain any more levels in Druid."

I've made this abundantly clear in more than a few talks, to which she replies that she knows already

[torrasque666]

If she wants to play "CN, but really CG, but ACTUALLY CE" then enforce it. Her actions have shifted her towards Evil. She is now no longer Neutral. The powers of nature abandon her. Her Animal Companion flees (if one is still alive) from her. And if she doesn't like it, tell her tough. She knew the rules and still chose to act that way. It doesn't matter what she says, but how she acts and she acts Evil.​

[enderlord99]

I've made this abundantly clear in more than a few talks, to which she replies that she knows already

Enforce it, then.

[Falontani]

Would I insert these prestige levels even if she doesn't have the requirements? Or alter some of her own work so that she meets the requirements?

Blighter requires non good (she met that before turning evil) BAB 4 (she's level 6+ druid), and been able to cast at least 3rd level druid spells in the past (oh hey chaotic evil, lost druid powers) She could take Blighter by simply picking up a metal weapon and using it now.

[steinmon1920518]

Alright. Thanks guys. I'll take to action what's been shared and see how it goes.
Worst case scenario: she quits.
Best case scenario: her character atones or accepts the new herself graceously

[Yogibear41]

Not a big fan of the Blighter Suggestions and here is why. You can be a CE psycopath killer, but you still revere nature/respect it, Blighters actively want to destroy nature, just becoming CE wouldn't make you a Blighter, you need to actively want to destroy ALL life to be a blighter.

Outside of being Undead or a lunatic (or maybe an evil outsider), the blighter (as written) never made alot of sense to me as a character choice. Its like a player character worshiping an elder evil, if you succeed in your mission congrats your dead along with the rest of the world.

Although I could see Ex-Druid Warforged who follows the Lord of Blades taking up the Blighter class, because the Lord of Blades more or less wants to annhilate everything that wasn't a Warforged anyway.

But back on subject, have her become CE and lose all her powers, don't even tell her just do it, all of a sudden she goes to cast a spell in the middle of combat and bam nothing.

Or if you are nicer, have her become NE.

[Celestia]

Frankly, I don't think the druid should even have an alignment restriction. Nothing about extreme alignments prevents one from revering or protecting nature.

Of course, that's not the question here. So, despite my better judgement, I'd say your best course of action is to enforce the restriction since you've already made clear the dangers of an alignment change.

[Crake]

Frankly, I don't think the druid should even have an alignment restriction. Nothing about extreme alignments prevents one from revering or protecting nature.

Of course, that's not the question here. So, despite my better judgement, I'd say your best course of action is to enforce the restriction since you've already made clear the dangers of an alignment change.

Personally I agree with this sentiment as well, I don't like the idea of druids being restricted by alignment, it doesn't make sense to me. Neutrality does not necessitate balance.

As for the player, explain to them that good intentions are irrelevant. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, it's how you execute. Explain that all but the most caricature-esque villains have good intentions, but they are evil because of the methods they're seeing to achieve those goals. The ends do not justify the means.

Also, being prone to random acts of violence to people? Ask the player how they think people would react to someone like that. A lot of inexperienced players tend to be very overly dramatic because they ignore the consequences of their actions in game, not considering the ramifications of what they're doing, because after all, it's just a game right? You get in trouble with the law, who cares, you're only there a couple hours a week if even.

[Falontani]

You could have a couple inevitables show up and drag her kicking and screaming off to the plane of law (usually mechanus) to spend the next hundred years as a prisoner. Sure it's a plot point to rescue her. Eventually. First you need planeshifting magic, and you need scrying to find her, a way to break into an extraplanar prison, and hopefully by that point your sister realizes the fault in her ways.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not a big fan of the Blighter Suggestions and here is why. You can be a CE psycopath killer, but you still revere nature/respect it, Blighters actively want to destroy nature, just becoming CE wouldn't make you a Blighter, you need to actively want to destroy ALL life to be a blighter.

Outside of being Undead or a lunatic (or maybe an evil outsider), the blighter (as written) never made alot of sense to me as a character choice. Its like a player character worshiping an elder evil, if you succeed in your mission congrats your dead along with the rest of the world.

Although I could see Ex-Druid Warforged who follows the Lord of Blades taking up the Blighter class, because the Lord of Blades more or less wants to annhilate everything that wasn't a Warforged anyway.

But back on subject, have her become CE and lose all her powers, don't even tell her just do it, all of a sudden she goes to cast a spell in the middle of combat and bam nothing.

Or if you are nicer, have her become NE.

Blighters are always fallen druids. They've had nature's blessing and lost it. Rather than accept they've done anything wrong, they feel betrayed and react with a "Screw me?! No! Screw you!" attitude and proceed to try to burn it all down. Resentment can be a powerfully destructive thing.

[Nifft]

Personally I agree with this sentiment as well, I don't like the idea of druids being restricted by alignment, it doesn't make sense to me. Neutrality does not necessitate balance.

As for the player, explain to them that good intentions are irrelevant. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, it's how you execute. Explain that all but the most caricature-esque villains have good intentions, but they are evil because of the methods they're seeing to achieve those goals. The ends do not justify the means.

Also, being prone to random acts of violence to people? Ask the player how they think people would react to someone like that. A lot of inexperienced players tend to be very overly dramatic because they ignore the consequences of their actions in game, not considering the ramifications of what they're doing, because after all, it's just a game right? You get in trouble with the law, who cares, you're only there a couple hours a week if even.

Mmm.

You're saying something true, but also something incorrect.

Good intentions do matter. They just don't matter enough to over-ride evil behavior.

The road to Heaven is also paved with good intentions. It's not the same road as the road to Hell. The point of "paved with good intentions" is to warn people that good intention alone is not sufficient to excuse bad behavior. Your behavior must also be good.

Intention is relevant. It's just not the only relevant thing.


Example of the road to heaven:


I did something bad, but my intention was good, so please allow me to make restitution for the bad action that was my mistake. It would be within your rights to punish me instead of allowing me a grace period to make restitution, but please allow me to work in support of good instead.


Example of the road to hell:


I did something bad, but my intention was good, so I refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of my bad action. Screw all of you for trying to make me shoulder responsibility.


Some people try to use good intention as an excuse for being bad, and those people are wrong, but good intentions are not inherently wrong or bad.

Good intentions are good.

[Karl Aegis]

What is your druid's deity? It sounds like an Erythnul or a Nerull worshiper, but could be a non-core deity.

[Quertus]

Attempt to disbelieve. Don't Druids require at least one component of their alignment to be neutral?

[Yogibear41]

Blighters are always fallen druids.

Blighters are always fallen druids, but
Fallen druids are not always blighters.

Is all I am trying to say.

[Crake]

Mmm.

You're saying something true, but also something incorrect.

Good intentions do matter. They just don't matter enough to over-ride evil behavior.

The road to Heaven is also paved with good intentions. It's not the same road as the road to Hell. The point of "paved with good intentions" is to warn people that good intention alone is not sufficient to excuse bad behavior. Your behavior must also be good.

Intention is relevant. It's just not the only relevant thing.


Example of the road to heaven:


I did something bad, but my intention was good, so please allow me to make restitution for the bad action that was my mistake. It would be within your rights to punish me instead of allowing me a grace period to make restitution, but please allow me to work in support of good instead.


Example of the road to hell:


I did something bad, but my intention was good, so I refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of my bad action. Screw all of you for trying to make me shoulder responsibility.


Some people try to use good intention as an excuse for being bad, and those people are wrong, but good intentions are not inherently wrong or bad.

Good intentions are good.

Yeah, that's a fair point, a miscommunication on my part. Evil is an OR gate, good is an AND gate. Only need one bit to be evil for it to be considered evil, it all needs to be good for it to be considered good. My point was that good intentions followed by evil acts toward those goals make the good intentions irrelevant, because the overall outcome is evil.

[steinmon1920518]

This player is a Druid who "specializes" (not as a wizard, but as a character preference) in fire- and summon- descriptor spells.
She doesn't adhere directly to a deity (as most Druid's and Ranger's don't in my experience) and none of her actions have anything to do with upholding her reverence of nature (if she wanted to destroy a town cause they were a Pelt and Fur Trade town, I would allow it, but still, that would be Evil, I'd just have an easier time justifying NE)

As far as the Blighter goes, I'll just reflavor text to suite the need if she feels bad about it. Not that she wants to destroy nature, but that now her destructive ways are infecting the very nature she reveers (maybe add a random chance for the Deforestation ability to suddenly burst out if that's the case)

But as of right now, Blighter fits her character all too well. "To crush, to burn, to destroy; for the sake of such things. To hell with who gets in the way"

Or I could cease her leveling as a Druid. Problem is, she's due for a lvl up here soon with the rest of the party, so I need to either hold her back from lvling up or give her a nonrefundable level in something she may or may not like

I don't want to be a jerk as her DM and relative, but I adhere wholeheartedly to "your actions have consequences, good or bad"

[steinmon1920518]

Attempt to disbelieve. Don't Druids require at least one component of their alignment to be neutral?

Yes they do, but Blighters can be any "non-good". Unless you were talking solely about Druids, in which case this came up several times already

[Red Fel]

Or I could cease her leveling as a Druid. Problem is, she's due for a lvl up here soon with the rest of the party, so I need to either hold her back from lvling up or give her a nonrefundable level in something she may or may not like

Or, you could let her level up, but simply note that she can't level as a Druid. Doesn't stop her from leveling up, and doesn't force you to choose a nonrefundable level of something else.

Just advise her, when her powers go kerflooey, that she is also precluded from taking additional Druid levels. Then, when you get to the level-up session, run the level-up as normal. Only no Druid levels.

Violating her alignment doesn't prevent her from leveling at all, it just means "no more Druid levels." You don't have to put her in Blighter, either, although you can recommend it.

This isn't you "being a jerk," this is you enforcing consequences.

[steinmon1920518]

Like I said, I'll see how it goes and act from there. If nothing else, it will add some epic quest line to tie in

Now, if only I can figure out how to dissolve the thread...

[InterstellarPro]

Like I said, I'll see how it goes and act from there. If nothing else, it will add some epic quest line to tie in

Now, if only I can figure out how to dissolve the thread...

The Blighter is a terrible class. It severely gimps the character for very little gain. I highly recommend homebrewing a version of Blighter that is not absolutely terrible. Here is a great start if you decide to go this path:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?198309-The-Blighter-Revamped

[DrMotives]

With regards to PrCs, there is at least one (Thrall of Dagon) that mentions fallen druids entering into it and meeting the CE requirement. It states that a fallen druid Thrall regains spellcasting once the Thrall levels start adding caster levels, and also they may have an animal companion restored, provided the companion fits Dagon by being aquatic. No other druid powers are restored. That's more generous than any other reading of fallen druid I've seen, outside Blighter and Shadowlord, both already mentioned by others in this thread.

[denthor]

I have a question.

Does she ever take into account the other characters alignment?

If not and an evil as well as a good gets tortured with the tactics I submit that she is really neutral evil.

No doubt Evil if she chooses her victims at random or without first checking for a given alignment good law evil chaos. That is an animal I am hungry let's eat. Paladins orcs meat is meat. Evil is intent with a stated purpose of. ..

[Karl Aegis]

You should introduce them to the combat maneuver rules. You'll be amazed how quickly they'll stop when they realize they have to roll initiative to initiate a bull rush and/or grapple to throw someone into a wagon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Blighters are always fallen druids, but
Fallen druids are not always blighters.

Is all I am trying to say.

Obviously. I was just trying to convey the mindset that would lead a former druid to become a blighter. It's the mindset of the mass-murderer; "The 'good' that everyone values is a lie. I'll show them how much of one and get my vengeance on the world that has treated me wrong." It's a really terrible mindset but understanding it makes for very chilling villains.

[Crake]

You should introduce them to the combat maneuver rules. You'll be amazed how quickly they'll stop when they realize they have to roll initiative to initiate a bull rush and/or grapple to throw someone into a wagon.

This is quite true actually. By just saying "okay you do that" it makes the players feel like they're so far above the regular joe, when in reality, a 10 strength druid should only be able to shove a regular joe about half the time, with maybe about a tenth of the time getting punched in the face for doing so (I'm sure there are some commoners out there with improved unarmed strike as a feat :smalltongue: plenty of barroom brawls going about)


Obviously. I was just trying to convey the mindset that would lead a former druid to become a blighter. It's the mindset of the mass-murderer; "The 'good' that everyone values is a lie. I'll show them how much of one and get my vengeance on the world that has treated me wrong." It's a really terrible mindset but understanding it makes for very chilling villains.

I don't think mass murderers and blighters have any real overlap.... Both blighters and druids can be mass murderers, and both can not be... There's little-to-no relationship there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think mass murderers and blighters have any real overlap.... Both blighters and druids can be mass murderers, and both can not be... There's little-to-no relationship there.

To cast their spells, they must blight a chunk of arable land in such a way that nothing can grow there again without magical intervention. They're attempting to genocide nature itself. It'd be like a former cleric of Moradin having to sacrifice dwarves and consuming their souls to recharge his spells. It's not mass-murder in the classic sense but it's certainly morally equivalent by druidic standards.

[Crake]

To cast their spells, they must blight a chunk of arable land in such a way that nothing can grow there again without magical intervention. They're attempting to genocide nature itself. It'd be like a former cleric of Moradin having to sacrifice dwarves and consuming their souls to recharge his spells. It's not mass-murder in the classic sense but it's certainly morally equivalent by druidic standards.

Yeah, I suppose when you put it that way.