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Nonah_Me
2007-08-29, 11:12 AM
I am playing a lawful good duskblade (I treat him like a sort of arcane paladin), but it seems all my player freinds want to play evil/chaotic characters. I've had to pull my character's sword out multiple times to stop my group from doing something that would grossly violate not only the laws of Sharn (we're playing in Ebberron) but also end up setting a couple of inevitibles onto us.

Why do people like to play evil characters? And what should I do regarding my demonic companions? I'd hate to have to play Lawful Naive just to get to the next dungeon.

Renegade Paladin
2007-08-29, 11:19 AM
People like to play evil characters because they're sadistic and playing that out. As for what you should do, smite their characters until they can't be smote anymore.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-29, 11:21 AM
Why do people like to play evil characters?

Escapism. It lets them to stuff they could never do in real life, and get away with it.

Nero24200
2007-08-29, 11:21 AM
Playing an evil character every now and then is a chance to see the realm of D'n'D from a different veiwpoint, play a dramaticlly different character, and explore different story routes from what you might normally take.

Players who -only- play evil characters are immature, and most probably, against any class that may have a morale code (such as the paladin, samurai, or even just lawful characters like monks). Quite frankly, if they're making it akward for a player to play a lawful good character -at all times- then they fall into this catagory. They're childish, selfish and refuse to partake in any story conceapt or idea that make so much as slow down their powerquesting and bathing in virgin blood.

Nonah_Me
2007-08-29, 11:23 AM
Great. Now, print-screen...and...done! Hopefully this will shame them into acting better.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-29, 11:26 AM
Why do people like to play evil characters? And what should I do regarding my demonic companions? I'd hate to have to play Lawful Naive just to get to the next dungeon.
People play evil characters for much the same reasons that they play different classes: a change of pace. And often, the DM likes it, because now he gets to be the good guys, giving him a change of pace too. Really, I think your asking the wrong question here. Its not why do people play evil characters, but why do they play them in supposedly good campaigns. In this case, sense it looks like your the odd man out, I would guess that you didn't get the memo. You should talk to your DM and the other Players out of character about how you thought that this was a good campaign, and their actions say differently. If your character is really the odd man out, I would suggest having him leave the group(he would be disgusted by the group, and refuse to work with it), and then make a new character that reflects the groups alignment.


Great. Now, print-screen...and...done! Hopefully this will shame them into acting better.

I think that this course of action is doomed to failure. People don't like being talked down to, or being told how to act. That's one reason why railroading Dm's are often resisted so much. I will reiterate, as the odd man out, you don't have the grounds to dictate the game. If it was one other player who was being difficult, then you would have some authority, because its every ones game so in some sense majority rules. But thats not whats happening here.

Spiryt
2007-08-29, 11:30 AM
Why do people like to play evil characters? And what should I do regarding my demonic companions? I'd hate to have to play Lawful Naive just to get to the next dungeon.

Beacuse it's RPG. So there is the same reason to play good characters as to play evil character.

Besides, some people indeed are evil, so maybe they'r just playing themself. :smallwink:

tainsouvra
2007-08-29, 11:39 AM
On one hand, the players in question being blatantly evil even when it doesn't benefit them (or even would be bad for them) strikes me as more Stupid Evil than Chaotic Evil. On the other hand...
Great. Now, print-screen...and...done! Hopefully this will shame them into acting better. If you want to shame your fellow players out of playing the way they feel is fun, you're playing D&D wrong.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-29, 11:43 AM
People play evil characters because they think they can get away with it. Its one thing if they are selfish evil, staying within the bounds of the laws and generally being socially acceptable. But those that act out and cause trouble on the assumption that the rest of the party will stick up for him are the troublesome ones. My suggestion, gather some evidence and rat him out to the authorities and have him put away for good. When players realize that their position in the group is not guaranteed, then they will be forced to have characters that can get along.

If you as a PC don't want an evil person in your group, just use Detect Evil on all the new applicants (and then detect chaos) and reject them out of hand. I don't believe Sharn has an Equal Rights Guild that will come down on you for not having the requisite balance of good and evil.

Mewtarthio
2007-08-29, 11:45 AM
People play evil characters because they think they can get away with it. Its one thing if they are selfish evil, staying within the bounds of the laws and generally being socially acceptable. But those that act out and cause trouble on the assumption that the rest of the party will stick up for him are the troublesome ones. My suggestion, gather some evidence and rat him out to the authorities and have him put away for good. When players realize that their position in the group is not guaranteed, then they will be forced to have characters that can get along.

If you as a PC don't want an evil person in your group, just use Detect Evil on all the new applicants (and then detect chaos) and reject them out of hand. I don't believe Sharn has an Equal Rights Guild that will come down on you for not having the requisite balance of good and evil.

But everyone is Evil. Quite frankly, that's tantamount to telling an Evil player to slit the throats of everyone else to show the Good guys that they're not guaranteed a position in the party.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-29, 11:46 AM
Get Vampiric Touch and kill them all, alone. :D

Failing that, play an evil character. If everyone else is doing it, they're going to kill you eventually anyways, I promise.

Nonah_Me
2007-08-29, 11:58 AM
I think that this course of action is doomed to failure. People don't like being talked down to, or being told how to act. That's one reason why railroading Dm's are often resisted so much. I will reiterate, as the odd man out, you don't have the grounds to dictate the game. If it was one other player who was being difficult, then you would have some authority, because its every ones game so in some sense majority rules. But thats not whats happening here.

I sometimes forget that text doesn't have voice tonal ques, so you didn't know that was a joke.

In any event, I've played my fair share of evil characters. My forum name is that of my first character, this thieving rogue who ended up losing his soul and having to become an assassin in order to get it back.

It only seems to me that it's hard to motivate my fellow players. My DM has a good idea, however: As we have no cleric and I seem to be one of the only ones with foresight enough to buy cure potions, force each character (who may or may not be at negative hitpoints) to recant their vile ways and take up the path of righteousness. There's no geas in effect here (duskblades aren't that powerful... an ironic statement at best), so truely chaotic characters would not be bound by such an oath.

In any case, my lawful good duskblade will probably be turned to lawful evil by the end of the campaign. It's so much easier to be corrupted than to be redeemed. Plus it sets Bastion (my character) up to be the next Darth Vader!

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-29, 12:02 PM
I sometimes forget that text doesn't have voice tonal ques, so you didn't know that was a joke.

Ah...sorry for the misunderstanding. For future reference, :smallwink: is usually considered a hint that the statement is jest.

blue_fenix
2007-08-29, 12:38 PM
If the rest of the group wants to play evil in this campaign, the easiest way to save yourself a lot of trouble is to join in and roll up an evil/neutral character. If this is a group of players who are doing evil this time around after a dozen "good" characters in a row, just go with it. If they are playing evil because it's their first time or because that's all they do, suggest that the DM require the characters made in the next campaign to all be good or neutral. Some DM's don't like the idea of forcing the party to be all non-evil (or even all non-good) but sometimes that's the only way to have a resonable level of party cohesiveness.

Wraithy
2007-08-29, 01:05 PM
if you are willing to change to evil then imitate a paladin of tyranny (LE).
by taking up lawful evil you can still (in a very perverse way) justify your actions.
"if I am controlling them, then it is better than these fools running around harming the innocent, and should the situation favour me at some point, all the better."

Person_Man
2007-08-29, 01:17 PM
Pretty much every geek I know (myself included) has gone through a "dark is cool" phase, typified by romanticizing villains and anti-heroes, rejection of mainstream culture and choices, and very poor clothing and hair choices. Roleplaying evil characters is just a normal outgrowth of this phase. For 90% of your friends, it will pass in a few years. The other 10% will most likely get lucrative careers in IT and will have a killer comic book collection that you can borrow from, so really, there's nothing to worry about.

de-trick
2007-08-29, 01:21 PM
I fell your pain, I don't know how I somehow usually play Lawful Good, or lawful neutral characters, last 4 characters were

LG human monk, with barbarian, chaos mage, ranger/rogue, and werewolf
you would think I would be fighting the chaos mage but he was party leader and I was his bodyguard

LN dwarf cleric of mordin, was not that bad, had paladin to help me

LG Dwarf knight of the crown, party 3 kender, 1 evil rogue, 1 fighter, 1 black robed mage

LG tiger-thingy paladin of Helm, bard, rogue, barbarian, druid

Threeshades
2007-08-29, 01:57 PM
Escapism. It lets them to stuff they could never do in real life, and get away with it.

That's pretty much it. Chaotic Evil is like the ultimate freedom. You can kill what and whoever you want (that doesnt kill you first of course)

Im not a sadist in any way and in fact i am against any kind of action that would be defined as evil in DnD terms but when it comes to roleplaying its fun to be chaotic evil and stab innocent commoners just for the heck of it. Insulting paladins and good monks and shred through the city guard of a big town for no apparent reason.
Also a nice way to live out aggressions.

But when youre evil all the time it becomes boring again. We've been playing an evil party for over a year and we stopped the random killings and unnecessary fights already some time ago (i remember some where in the beginning my rogue set fire to a slum quarter of a rather big town)

Renegade Paladin
2007-08-29, 02:44 PM
My very first campaign started out as a mix of good and neutral characters, but before too long the party's rogue and wizard both went to evil, the former by joining the Shadow Thieves and the latter by fireballing a bar full of commoners over a perceived insult. They then started trying to either forcibly convert (via a helm of opposite alignment) or off my character. My character at one point had his waraxe to the rogue's throat after rolling a natural 20 on Sense Motive vs. his 1 in Bluff; I should have driven it home then and there.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-08-29, 03:43 PM
Seeing as only the Paladin is the only class almost guaranteed to lose his powers by hanging out with the wrong crowd (though perhaps the Cleric would run the risk as well), I wouldn't see a problem with a Lawful Good party member in a group of evil folks depending on what the reason for the group to be adventuring.

For example, if a party of evil folks is out to do the typical dungeon delving, there's not too many problems with alignment conflicts, until you run into a few issues here in there. The good character mihgt smite the ogre den to save the local population from the monsters' depredations; the evil character might smite the ogre den because he knows there's a good bit of treasure there. Plus, he can charge the villagers for service.

If the party is out serving the whims of an evil authority, such as a king or deity, the conflict is a bit more difficult to navigate, but not impossible. A Lawful Evil king may elicit decrees that a Lawful Good hero could implement yet manage to save the citizens from the worst depredations of his ruler and his companions.

Though friends do tend to rub off on a person, it doesn't necessarily mean the Good character is doomed to become as Evil as his friends. It's quite likely the Good character will learn how to stem some of the darker impulses of the friends. Of course, it's likely they will learn how to quash the annoying, good impulses of the odd man out. It's like a Reverse Belkar Syndrome.

Matthew
2007-08-30, 01:34 PM
I don't think I will ever get this whole 'I want to be evil' part of D&D. I have only ever played in one D&D Campaign that was of that sort and it was agreed beforehand. Just never really made that much sense to me.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-30, 01:42 PM
I don't think I will ever get this whole 'I want to be evil' part of D&D. I have only ever played in one D&D Campaign that was of that sort and it was agreed beforehand. Just never really made that much sense to me.

I dunno, I understand the desire to play that way. Sometimes it's fun to play against character (at least, I hope evil is against character for most people) or to play the villian of the peice. I get it. I've done it. I find LE the most fun of the lot, since you are evil but you can't just do whatever the heck you want.

I just don't understand folks who decide to do that in a game that was supposed to be 'good'. Both good and evil games have a place, but everyone should know what they are getting into ahead of time.

Totally Guy
2007-08-30, 02:00 PM
I think next time I'll create a lawful evil character with an abition of becoming a good person but without the imagination that allows him to think and perform good acts. With a little help from his friends he may yet see the light.

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-30, 02:03 PM
Both can mesh well. Problems only arise if enough people are trying to go 'against the flow' to actually shift what everyone intended to be a 'good' campaign to an 'evil' one.

Having probably even up to a third of a party evil in a 'good' campaign can make things interesting for all involved, so long as players aren't thinking 'ZOMG!!1! Choatic E-Villll!!! Death to the children and livestick!!!!111!!'

Lawful Evil fits well with nearly any party and Neutral and Chaotic Evil can work if played maturely.

Prometheus
2007-08-30, 04:19 PM
As a DM, I try to have campaigns were the group has at least a realistic reason to be traveling together, so this one vs. the rest thing doesn't happen. It can be a good campaign, evil one, surprisingly enough a neutral campaign, and it can happen for another reason, but the beliefs should be close enough for all to actually except the premise of traveling together.

Evil campaigns are best for a couple of quick, action-packed sessions before killing them all or lteting them make away gloriously.

Mewtarthio
2007-08-30, 04:57 PM
I think next time I'll create a lawful evil character with an abition of becoming a good person but without the imagination that allows him to think and perform good acts. With a little help from his friends he may yet see the light.

So, like...

"Why don't you try giving to the poor?"

"Yes, that's a great idea! I'll open a soup kitchen and give food to anyone who comes by! And if they refuse, I'll make them eat it! I'll hunt them to the far corners of the earth, if I must! And then I'll use my soup-making skills to become royal chef! And I'll assassinate the king, take control of the army, and replace this pathetic benevolent monarchy with a fascist dicatorship! Soldiers will march throughout the streets with ladles, smashing into the homes of any poor that they find! And they will pour that soup down the throats of the impoverished until they sing my praises throughout the land! And then I'll march on the attack with my undead leigons to spread warmth and love and happiness all over the globe! Mwahahahaha!"

Telonius
2007-08-31, 09:06 AM
I don't think playing evil characters is necessarily a sign of childishness. DMs do it all the time. But then, DMs should also have a certain level of maturity. A well-played evil character doesn't necessarily go around plotting the destruction of society as we know it with each situation. He doesn't even need to attack things randomly, if it's not in his character to do so. (Remember, the character determines the alignment, not the other way around.) The evil acts of an evil character don't have to be epic in scope; they don't even necessarily have to be illegal. They can be the normal every-day sort of evil. Not stopping to help a guy whose wagon broke; being impatient with the waiter; insulting people because of their race, class, or economic level.

So, how does a character get to be evil? There are lots of ways. But usually, it involves either an emotion or a desire that's allowed to grow so much that it overwhelms the character. The emotion might even be a good one - desire to protect what you love is the most obvious. If the family down the road threatens your farm, you poison their well so they won't be able to hurt yoru wife and children. A king over-reacts to the threat another kingdom poses, out of a desire to protect his subjects. A miser forecloses on the widow because he's protecting an investment.

In D&D mechanical terms, they might use a high bluff check to pawn off a worthless piece of junk on an unsuspecting merchant. They might CDG a helpless opponent, or insult any captives you might take. Most of that stuff really shouldn't be all that disruptive to the gaming experience, if it's played well. If it's played really well, the other players might not even know you're evil, if it wasn't written on your sheet. Just like a Good character isn't required to have a blinking neon "I'm Good!" sign, an evil character doesn't need to wear all black, twirl his moustache, or kick every puppy he sees.

Wraithy
2007-08-31, 11:34 AM
an evil character doesn't need to wear all black, twirl his moustache, or kick every puppy he sees.

speak for yourself:smallbiggrin:

Lavin
2007-08-31, 10:03 PM
Escapism. It lets them to stuff they could never do in real life, and get away with it.


Hell, you can do that even if your good!

Situation: Corrupt policeman / guard
Action: I stab him.
Result: The town reward you.

The real life equivalent:

Situation: Corrupt policeman / guard
Action: I stab him.
Result: He pulls out his gun and kills you dead. Bang. Game over.

Anyways, one reason that I can speculate as to evil characters: They're more interesting. The bad guy is what makes the bond movie, so to speak. It's always good to spice up a campaign, and playing evil is one way to do it. There are only so many times you can be crusading for good before it starts to look vanila.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-31, 10:33 PM
Gah!!! I just found out that in my Rea Life Group, I am the only Good Character in a evil group. Not only that, I'm a LG Paladin. The only saving grace is the fact that I don't have detect evil(I'm using Fax's Variant), and they haven't done anything truly evil while I was present, or that I could pin them with. Though I would give it a level, tops. Plus my Dm new my character, and what everyone else's were, and he didn't tell me. The other players have already tried to kill me once, but they covered it with bluff checks( by the characters that didn't attack me, so I didn't consider my character too suspicious to listen), and I don't know what I should do at this point.

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-31, 10:51 PM
So, like...

"Why don't you try giving to the poor?"

"Yes, that's a great idea! I'll open a soup kitchen and give food to anyone who comes by! And if they refuse, I'll make them eat it! I'll hunt them to the far corners of the earth, if I must! And then I'll use my soup-making skills to become royal chef! And I'll assassinate the king, take control of the army, and replace this pathetic benevolent monarchy with a fascist dicatorship! Soldiers will march throughout the streets with ladles, smashing into the homes of any poor that they find! And they will pour that soup down the throats of the impoverished until they sing my praises throughout the land! And then I'll march on the attack with my undead leigons to spread warmth and love and happiness all over the globe! Mwahahahaha!"
Feeding the poor through scare tactics, secret police, and/or undead legions?

Sounds oddly fun.

"As their war cry of 'For Love And Peace!' echoed over the plain, the minions of the Dread Cook routed the defending knights, claiming another city in the name of the Necropolis of Happiness."

I suddenly want to create a coven of necromancers called the Flowers of Happiness. You know, just to throw the good guys off.

Drider
2007-08-31, 11:12 PM
So, like...

"Why don't you try giving to the poor?"

"Yes, that's a great idea! I'll open a soup kitchen and give food to anyone who comes by! And if they refuse, I'll make them eat it! I'll hunt them to the far corners of the earth, if I must! And then I'll use my soup-making skills to become royal chef! And I'll assassinate the king, take control of the army, and replace this pathetic benevolent monarchy with a fascist dicatorship! Soldiers will march throughout the streets with ladles, smashing into the homes of any poor that they find! And they will pour that soup down the throats of the impoverished until they sing my praises throughout the land! And then I'll march on the attack with my undead leigons to spread warmth and love and happiness all over the globe! Mwahahahaha!"

that is the best character story i've read in a good while, it sounds interesting to play.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-01, 08:58 AM
Anyways, one reason that I can speculate as to evil characters: They're more interesting. The bad guy is what makes the bond movie, so to speak. It's always good to spice up a campaign, and playing evil is one way to do it. There are only so many times you can be crusading for good before it starts to look vanila.

Another reason: Evil is proactive. The forces of Good can simply walk from town to town, find out what's wrong, and fix it. Evil doesn't have that option (except Chaotic Stupid and certain forms of Lawful Evil). Evil has to figure out what it wants, then take the necessary steps to get it. There's no Big Bad Good Guy whose death solves your problems. There's no portal to the Realms of Good which you just need to close to fix everything. You can't through the MacGuffin of Good into the volcano and watch everything wrong itself. Sure, those may be steps you can take, but in the end the entire plot was created by you to serve your own needs.

Atreyu the Masked LLama
2007-09-01, 09:15 AM
Gah!!! I just found out that in my Rea Life Group, I am the only Good Character in a evil group. Not only that, I'm a LG Paladin. The only saving grace is the fact that I don't have detect evil(I'm using Fax's Variant), and they haven't done anything truly evil while I was present, or that I could pin them with. Though I would give it a level, tops. Plus my Dm new my character, and what everyone else's were, and he didn't tell me. The other players have already tried to kill me once, but they covered it with bluff checks( by the characters that didn't attack me, so I didn't consider my character too suspicious to listen), and I don't know what I should do at this point.

a) Run with it, but don't get too attached to the character. It sounds funny while it lasts.
B) Have him wise up, leave, get a new character.
C) Buy pizza for everyone with the stipulation that the pizza is a mighty artifact and will alter the alignment of the PC's of every player who eats it.

earlblue
2007-09-01, 11:55 AM
Heh,

I have played evil for so long, that there was that one time where we all switch to play good, and one of the players (a relative new one to join the group) got a 'cultural' shock when I did something good.

If you have been playing correctly to alignment, Playing Good is often restrictive. The Experience DM often comes up with situations that tie the good guys hands and feet. For example, try to frame your players for crime they did not commit. It is fun to see how they react. On one hand, they can't just whack whoever is trying to capture them, coz the guys trying to capture them ARE the good guys. On the other, I doubt the players would want to be captured.

You have to understand that playing evil doesn't mean that you have to slay everything in sight. I know plenty of CNs that kill more often then I do. If you understand that everyone is NOT omnipotent, and that you need others to cover your back, you are less likely to try and off your companions. Rather you will 'use' them to get ahead. Playing evil as a group also means that each group member has to be somewhat competent or they will be left behind. This is not your usual powergaming. This is politics at its best. Each member has to earn the respect of the rest or s/he might just be killed by rest. Members will cooperate with each other not out of the goodness of their heart, but rather that by cooperating, they can achieve synergy that gives them more power.

If you are somewhat competent (and not just in fighting) and each group member is on par, no one will want to start a war that s/he may not win, or kill someone that might prove useful later on.

It is also a misconception that evil characters cannot do good. I can, as long as it benefits me ultimately. I have my motives for helping others, be it for gaining a 'good' reputation for myself, or to get others to do things for me.

While the group do not often have 'Good' aligned characters with us, we don't discriminate against them. We evil ones know that Good people have their use. And even if they do recognized that we are evil, we are competent enough to stop them thinking about getting rid of us, or even try. They know that if they do... our revenge (and yes, revenge is allow for evil character) will be devastating.

The only true barrier to playing evil character is admitting that your character IS evil in some of his/her actions. Given that fighting and killing is a big part in RPG, evil fighting and killings should be rather often. Just that we don't see them as 'evil'.

O'BeQuiet UWannaBe.

I mean, if being CN (i.e. Nut Case) is equal to being a homicidal maniac... If it were down to me, I will require that all 'good' characters to doing subdual damage as a norm, and can only do actual damage by taking feats.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-01, 10:54 PM
:smallamused:

Oooooo, beware the big scary vengeance of those evil people! After all, unlike all those other evil people we try to stop, they might actually do something evil... Oh wait.

Seriously, the prospect of evil beings possibly taking revenge has never stopped many adventurers that I've ever heard of. :smalltongue:

Mewtarthio
2007-09-01, 10:59 PM
Seriously, the prospect of evil beings possibly taking revenge has never stopped many adventurers that I've ever heard of. :smalltongue:

What about the prospect of three evil beings, each of which has been travelling alongside you for years and knows all your powers (including weaknesses) and is (in theory) just as strong as you?

Draz74
2007-09-01, 11:01 PM
Another reason: Evil is proactive. The forces of Good can simply walk from town to town, find out what's wrong, and fix it. Evil doesn't have that option (except Chaotic Stupid and certain forms of Lawful Evil). Evil has to figure out what it wants, then take the necessary steps to get it. There's no Big Bad Good Guy whose death solves your problems. There's no portal to the Realms of Good which you just need to close to fix everything. You can't through the MacGuffin of Good into the volcano and watch everything wrong itself. Sure, those may be steps you can take, but in the end the entire plot was created by you to serve your own needs.

Excellent points. Of course, there's no reason a Good character or party can't be proactive too, as long as the DM isn't overly controlling. But there's unfortunately no question that the Good characters need to be more creative and roleplayed more faithfully to be proactive, compared to the evil ones.

This is a problem I run into when trying to write fiction ... my heroes will really stand out if they are actually pro-actively trying to accomplish something, rather than just reacting to the deeds of villains or others. But that's actually hard to make up!