Debuffer/Face: Bard vs. Sorcerer? Or Wizard?

[Hiro Quester]

TLDR: in a game with a large party and no other "face", where enemy debuffing is a better use of magic than ally buffing, would you play a bard, sorcerer or wizard?

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In our up-coming game, we are starting with PHB only for classes, feats, etc. Some PHB race and deites and +0LA variants and alternate features from RotW, RoS, RoD. (So whisper gnome, but not chaos gnome.)

DM has run this campaign before, and has run a large party like ours before, and says he wants to avoid things that will "break" the game. Low-ish ability array: 15, 13, 13, 11, 11, 9.

It's a low-magic game. There's a limit of character-level within of spell levels you can have operative as buff spells; so a third level barbarian can only have two first-levels spells or one second-level spell on him.

Everyone (even clerics, who only get domain spells automatically) has to learn spells by seeing or learning about them in-game.

Non-core PrCs approved on a case by case basis.

It's a big group, with few of us particularly optimized. A bit of redundancy in the party, because we are middle-aged players with lives, and some people can't play on any particular game night.


Human Fighter (tank)
Elf Monk
Half-orc Barbarian (frontline)
Human Rogue
Half-Elf Cleric of Fharlanghn [Domains: Protection, travel]
Human Cleric of Boccob [Magic and Trickery domains]
Wizard Necromancer


Plus me.

My original plan was to play a gnome bard, as buffer (IC, haste) but focussing most of my resources on being face, BFC (grease, illusions), and especially being enemy debuffer (esp with fear spells; Bard PrCing into Dread Witch was approved by the DM).

One reason is that enemy debuffing has no limit, in the way that ally buffing will have (see spoiler above). And a Bard's IC, as a Su ability, doesn't count as a buff spell on allies, too.

But a couple of us (including the DM) are concerned about our main arcane caster wanting to play a necromancer wizard. This player believes D&D should be like real life, so when you find a bunch of friends you can't design them to be able to do all the things, but just make the best with the people you have.

Some of us believe a bit of meta gaming at the beginning to design a well-balanced party (fun for everyone because we can do all the things, and everyone has a role) party.

We worry that a wizard built on what will be fun for that player, might be not-fun for the rest of us and might leave us without some of the tings a wizard will usually bring to the party (for all I know he could ban transmutation and conjuration!!).

So I'm thinking that perhaps a fear bard won't be a good complement to his being our main arcane caster.

I'm considering switching. Either to Wizard or Sorcerer.

The fear-bard looks very fun for me to play. I like being "face", and I'm usually the player keeping good notes to remember the over-arching plot of our campaign.

A sorcerer can also be face, even if diplomacy is cross-class (maybe the DM would approve a PHB2 apprentice feat to get diplomacy and perform in-class. And face/debuffer fear-monger could also be done well by a sorcerer. Sorcerer has more magical resources to do what I was intending the bard to do, plus it can be better at dispelling/counterspelling, and other ways of debuting enemies.

But the Cleric of Boccob can also be a "face" in the sense of having the other cleric pump knowledges, and he pumps Diplomacy and Bluff and 13 CHA.

But a "God" wizard might be more awesome at BFC, summoning, buffing, and can be more flexible, able to seek out and prepare the spells need to deal with threats we face. (And I'm not sure the necromancer (which might fit into what Treantmonk calls the "Waste of Space" category of wizard) will see the wizard's job that way.

What would you do?
1. Stick with bard's social roles (fun for me to play), buffing, and fear-debuffing.


1.b Stick with Bard, but kill him off and replace him with a sorcerer or wizard if it seems we need one. Would bard be more fun at lower levels, then switch to a more arcane caster class at higher levels? (Note: DM has vetoed a sublime chord bard that would do this more naturally.)

2. Just start as a gnome sorcerer without the augmentation of bardic music, but still focussed on BFC and debuffing (including fear, illusions). Maybe still PrC into Dread Witch.

3. Full-on whisper-gnome conjurer God wizard (with a side business in illusions and enchantments and transmutation, probably banning evocation and necromancy). Let the cleric be face.

[Nifft]

With that many characters, a Bard's Inspire Courage (with optional Dragonfire Inspiration) will be unusually effective. So IMHO you wouldn't need to go BFC in addition to using your music in combat -- you could focus on utility (which silent image certainly fulfills) or whatever. I'd recommend allocating a level 1 slot to inspirational boost for another +1 in key fights.

Would your Bardic Music count as a spell for the purpose of limited buff stacking? Or is it a separate category? If it's separate, then that's another plus for the Bard.


Being a GOD Wizard is obviously awesome, but I do wonder if the DM might see that as violating the spirit of a low-magic setting. In terms of social optimization, it might be better to focus on subtle effects.

[Hiro Quester]

The force multiplier of inspire courage (and the fact that as a buff it isn’t limited by magic limits) is a good reason to stay with bard. Plus bard is kinda fun.

DM is kind of encouraging wizard or sorcerer. He also
Worries that the necromancer may not b able to carry the weight of main arcane caster.

I have never played a wizard. I do think it would be fun. But I also know I have a tendency to power-game. And that much power in my hands could be too much.

So sorcerer maybe. I like the CHA focus is social and casting.

I haven’t played one before. But I have played a bard /sublime chord which is a singing sorcerer. Can a sorcerer be a good way to complement the wizard without stepping on his toes too much. And can a sorcerer be an adequate party face?

[Nifft]

If the DM is encouraging you to be a Wizard, and you want to be a Wizard, then be a Wizard.

If you want to be the party face, then be a Bard.


Sorcerer is not a good compromise that gets the benefits of both. It's good for Sorcerer tricks (e.g. Sandshaper list expansion, or Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans), but it's not going to cast like a Wizard, and it's not going to socialize like a Bard.

Sorcerers have too few skill points to cover basic casting skills (Concentration, Spellcraft) let alone


If you want to be the party Face, then consider spending a feat to get access to social skills as a Wizard -- for example, a human with Able Learner (from Races of Destiny) pays only 1 point for cross-class skills, so you could keep a bunch of social skills at half-ranks until you took a level in an PrC which gave access to them as class skills.

A build might look like:

Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / full-casting PrC 10 / other full-casting PrC 4

-- -- --

Another way to be a BFC + Face character might be Druid, using one of the druid sect feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting to expand your skill list. Druids get 4+Int skill points per level, so you've got a bit more leeway relative to what a Sorcerer gets. Also, you don't need to put any points in Str or Dex since you're going to be a bear all day, so that could buy you a bit more Int and Cha.

[Hiro Quester]

Hmm... Yes, being a face is hard with Sorcerer. Might be easier with Wizard. I'll try building that and see how it looks.

I played a Druid in our last game. I loved it, but want to try something else this time.

[Eldariel]

I once ran a do-it-all Wizard with Nymph's Kiss and Keen Intellect going Rogue 1/Wizard 5 [Spontaneous Divination]/Unseen Seer. Losing a level of casting hurts like a truck but you do get all the skills and a vast skill list in return. Not worth it but not horrible. The other option is using feats to expand your skill list or outsourcing the face skills. But a Wizard face isn't impossible at all; a Wizard can afford some Cha (though with that array, unless you go undead or make heavy use of form changing spells, it's going to come at the cost of Dex or potentially Con) and spells help as ever.

[Hiro Quester]

Hmmm.... another option could be a "face" wizard: a specialist Enchanter, using the UA variant here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enchanterVariants

The specialist enchanter can trade the wizard bonus feats for Social Proficiency (Ex): gets Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills, and a +2 competence bonus to one of these skills every 5 levels

It could also trade the familiar for a cohort (a definite trade up), and trade your bonus spells for a free extend on enchantment spells (not worth it).

I know its not as ultimate-god-powered as a specialist conjurer or transmuter. And giving up your wizard bonus feats hurts. A lot. But our group is not terribly optimized. And toning down my tendency to power game by giving up these feats for the face role would make the wizard fun in social situations as well as when using magic.

I'd also have to give up dex for charisma. Being a middle-aged gnome might be a good idea (16 int, 14 cha and con, 10 dex and wis and 8 str).

am I crazy for considering this?

[Nifft]

am I crazy for considering this?

Yes.

Spontaneous Divination is incredible.

Elf Generalist or Abrupt Jaunt are both incredible.

You get most of the value of Social Proficiency by being Human and taking Able Learner -> one level of Mindbender + Mindsight feat, both at level 6 after you lock in Spontaneous Divination.

-- -- --

If the Necromancer banned Enchantment, and you want to be an especially nice person by taking the other PC's banned school as your specialist school -- that is a valid reason to be an Enchanter.

If you're already going to be an Enchanter, then it's reasonable to consider Social Proficiency. It's still a bad trade if you intend to hit Wizard 5, because Spontaneous Divination is incredible, but maybe you plan to PrC out before level 5. In that case, it's valid to take the variant.

But that's an unusual case.

[Hiro Quester]

Complete Champion isn't in the books we can use. So not having the bonus feat perhaps doesn't foreclose on that, because it probably isn't an option, anyway.

Since PHB2 also isn't in our books, I probably can't use Abrupt Jaunt as a specialist Conjurer, either.

Again, these options are powerful. But the group isn't that optimized, and I like the idea of having the social skills to be face.

[Nifft]

Complete Champion isn't in the books we can use. So not having the bonus feat perhaps doesn't foreclose on that, because it probably isn't an option, anyway.

Since PHB2 also isn't in our books, I probably can't use Abrupt Jaunt as a specialist Conjurer, either.

Again, these options are powerful. But the group isn't that optimized, and I like the idea of having the social skills to be face.

Ah yeah, then it's not so bad to lose out on those features.

If the SRD variants section is available, then you're missing out on the opportunity to be a Domain Wizard... but whatever, it's not that big a deal.

What's your starting Intelligence?

[Hiro Quester]

If I play a middle-aged gnome, then int starts at 16.

I have never played a wizard before (druid, bard and cleric, though). So the spellbook mechanics is new to me.

Domain wizard didn't look that awesome. And with two wizards in the party I figures specializing would prevent us from stepping on one another's' toes. What's the advantage?

[Nifft]

If I play a middle-aged gnome, then int starts at 16. Hmm, at 16 Int you may be short of skill points. If you want to be the face, then I recommend Human for the bonus skill points.

Gnome gives you 2 class +3 Int = 5 skills at max, of which you need Spellcraft + Concentration just to be a Wizard, and you've got 3 skills worth of points to spread around 4 social skills.

Human gives you 6 skills at max, which gives you Spellcraft, Concentration, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive.


Domain wizard didn't look that awesome. And with two wizards in the party I figures specializing would prevent us from stepping on one another's' toes. What's the advantage? + Bonus spell slots.
+ Bonus spells known.
+ No banned schools.

It's nothing game-breaking, but it is a solid set of goodies with no downside.

[Hiro Quester]

My reason for gnome was originally to be a gnome illusionist.

I thought perhaps the bonus to DC of illusions, and small size, plus Con boost would be a good reason to stick with it, even with an enchanter.

But perhaps human would be better. An extra feat would matter if I give up wizard bonus feats for social proficiency.

Maxing out sensemotive and intimidate probably isn't as important as diplomacy, gather information and bluff, though. It would probably help to know some things, too.

[Eldariel]

Just be a Gray Elf or another Int bonus race. Bonus skill points AND bonus DC. Squishy but by not banning Necro you can use False Life to alleviate it relatively early. Could go 6/14/10/18/12/14 or drop 2 Cha for 2 more Dex. Either is fine.

Domain Wizard or Elf Generalist would work. Just enter Unseen Seer (you lose out on the precision damage bonus but whatever), Ruathar, Mindbender or whatever on 6 to get the social skills. Feats work too. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) goes in detail about the myriad of ways; get something accepted. Though of course, Enchanter banning like Evocation and Abjuration is also possible. I would keep Necromancy on a 10 Con Wizard just for life insurance.

And definitely put at least one rank in all the key Knowledges. Preferably all. Your Int lets you roll quite high.

[Nifft]

My reason for gnome was originally to be a gnome illusionist.

I thought perhaps the bonus to DC of illusions, and small size, plus Con boost would be a good reason to stick with it, even with an enchanter.

But perhaps human would be better. An extra feat would matter if I give up wizard bonus feats for social proficiency.

Maxing out sensemotive and intimidate probably isn't as important as diplomacy, gather information and bluff, though. It would probably help to know some things, too.

IMHO Sense Motive is awesome.

I'd rate the skills Diplomacy = Sense Motive > Bluff > Intimidate = Gather Info

Bluff is great if you have a focus on Illusions, as a support skill to make your illusions more plausible.

Ooo, on the subject of illusions, have you got access to Changeling from Eberron? There's a really neat racial substitution level set for Changeling Wizards, which allows you to specialize in both Illusion and Transmutation. You also get to transmute your Familiar to change around the Familiar's bonus, which is neat, and you get (4+Int)x4 skill points at 1st level, and (4+Int) skill points at levels 3 and 5. That's instead of being an Enchanter, but they do get Bluff, Disguise, and Sleight of Hand -- so you'd want Able Learner at level 1, to cross-class Diplomacy / Sense Motive / Intimidate / etc., and then get them up to class-skill level with Mindbender at level 6.


Looking at your DM's stat array: 15, 13, 13, 11, 11, 9... hmm, yeah, being Middle Aged is a fantastic idea.

As a Human or Changeling, you could do something like:

Str 8 (9 -1 age)
Dex 10 (11 -1 age)
Con 12 (13 -1 age)
Int 16 (15 +1 age)
Wis 12 (11 +1 age)
Cha 14 (13 +1 age)

As a Gnome, you might want to go like:

Str 8 (11 -1 age, -2 race)
Dex 10 (11 -1 age)
Con 14 (13 -1 age, +2 race)
Int 16 (15 +1 age)
Wis 10 (9 +1 age)
Cha 14 (13 +1 age)

You're a jolly, fat, hearty Santa Claus type of person. Gregarious and charming, you use magic to entertain, and for your own convenience (prestidigitation to clean your sweaty clothing for example). People naturally like you... so when you charm someone specific into unnaturally liking you, their behavior doesn't seem suspicious to a casual observer.

Ban Necromancy and Evocation, and use Illusion & Transmutation in public, with a healthy portion of Conjuration & Enchantment when you need to make things happen.

[Hiro Quester]

As I built the wizard last night, I kept feeling sad the it wasn’t a bard. I kept trying to find ways to get the social and out-of-combat fun of bard into the nerdiness of wizard.

I like the awesome Arcane power of a wizard, but perhaps in a low-magic game, we shouldn’t have too much of that awesome power. (Two clerics, a wizard, and a bard should be enough.)

And I know I’m going to be tempted to power-game the wizard, which probably works counter to our DM’s low magic plans for the game.

So I’m going to just stick with my original plan of being a bard. DM has already approved gnome substitutions and PrCing into Dread Witch. I thing it will be fun to play. And a good force multiplier in a large-ish group like ours.

I’ll keep the wizard in my back pocket, if it seems like the party needs a wizard more. Perhaps the bard will die a heroic death and be replaced by a sorely needed wizard?

But in the meantime the bard will be fun to play.

Thanks for helping me think this through.

[Vaern]

If you ever have the option of playing a bard, play a bard. Especially if your goal is to be the group's face. Their exclusive access to Glibness makes them unparalleled in situations where your best option is to talk your way out of trouble. Perks of glibness include being literally the only bard spell without a verbal component, granting an opportunity to avoid magical effects that detect lies or compel you to tell the truth, and a +30 untyped bonus to bluff which will stack with the +10 enhancement bonus from Voice of the Dragon and up to a +10 insight bonus from Serene Visage and any competence bonuses you may have from equipment (such as a wink brooch or a mask of lies). By level 10, you're looking at a potential +70 bonus to bluff checks.

Bluff and diplomacy ultimately have the same effect of getting the other person to agree with your point of view and potentially improving their disposition towards you. Relying on bluff is just a matter of adding enough extra misleading information to convince the DM that the situation calls for a bluff check rather than diplomacy ("The villain is threatening our village and we'd appreciate your help," vs. "We overheard the villain's henchmen mention that they're going to be coming here to raze your village as soon as they've wiped ours out, so it's in your best interest to help us get rid of them as soon as possible").

If you want some sorcerer/wizard spells, going into Lyric Thaumaturge gets you a few spells from their list. You only get one at each spell level so you'll need to pick them carefully, and it won't take you all the way up to 9th level spells like Sublime Chord will. Lyric Thaumaturge also grants Captivating Melody for free, which will allow you to expend bardic music uses to boost the save DC of enchantment and illusion spells by 2, which is a nice extra bonus if those are the two schools of magic that you're most interested in playing with.

Bard will always be the best face character, though buffing may not be as easy for them as other classes. Inspire Courage is great at lower levels and, as it affects all allies who can hear it rather than having a subject cap like most spells, only becomes better the larger your group is. Unfortunately, it doesn't scale well into higher levels. Unless you're consistently leading an army of low-level NPCs into battle, the extra +1 bonus by level 8 isn't going to be especially noticeable. What's more, the bonus comes after you've most likely already leveled out of your base class and into a prestige class. Without access to Sublime Chord, you may eventually decide that your character's impact on the game is underwhelming in the mid to high level range and wish to roll up a new character. If this occurs, do not play a wizard. If you've never played a wizard before, create your first one between levels 1 and 4.

As someone who rarely plays wizards to someone who has never played a wizard before, trying to roll up your first wizard past level 5 is pretty much the worst thing ever. If you're inspired to play your first wizard by the forum's general mindset that they should have a spell for every occasion, be able to do anything, and overcome any challenge, you will likely overthink every aspect of your character and over-prepare for situations that will likely never occur to the point that the character is simply not fun for you. I once tried rolling up a level 7 wizard, and deciding what spells I might need, working out the cost of buying and copying those spells into my spellbook (in multiple ways in case the DM let me get away with a less expensive approach), deciding what spells to have extra scrolls of on hand just in case and figuring in the crafting cost and experience drain from all of them, and planning contingencies in case my spellbook was stolen was probably one of the most stressful and nerve-racking experiences I've ever had with any tabletop game, and in the end I said %#$@ it and rolled a rogue instead. If you're building a character to use social skills and specialize in just one or two schools of magic anyway, a sorcerer has high charisma and should be able to learn enough spells to cover the essentials of your build while being much less stressful to create and play at higher levels.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has various traits that let you easily be an Int-based face. You could maybe convince your GM to let you port one or more of them backwards. Examples below:

Clever Wordplay (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/clever-wordplay/)
Student of Philosophy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/student-of-philosophy/)
Bruising Intellect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/bruising-intellect/)
Cunning Liar (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cunning%20Liar)

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I suggest asking your GM if you can play a Beguiler. They're not bad debuffers, great faces (they have the skills and far more skill points that other spellcasters, and their spells synergise well with it), and are pretty fun. They also avoid the "I can make everyone else irrelevant" issues of wizards by being a little more balanced, good single-classed all the way through, yet still open to some great builds.

About the "watch spells to learn them": maybe you could have to know that you can cast a spell to cast it? And watching a spell (or reading it from a scroll or something) could make you aware that you have access to a spell?

[Nifft]

As I built the wizard last night, I kept feeling sad the it wasn’t a bard. I kept trying to find ways to get the social and out-of-combat fun of bard into the nerdiness of wizard.

Bards are awesome, especially in a big party like you've got.

Are you using Races of Stone? Can you use the Gnome Bard racial substitution levels?

What books can you pick spells & feats from?

[Hiro Quester]

I have played a bard before and it was fun enough that I want to do it again (last time was bard/sublime chord, who had diplomacy to ththe sky and persisted glibness, until the DM just has to ask me to stop bluffing (or just rule "he believes that you believe that's true").

Toning that down a bit this time.

I did try out beguiler. But we have to start with PHB Races and classes only. So no. We are using Races of Stone, at least for the gnome bard substitutions.

It makes a good fear-debuffer bard with the possibility of PrCing into dread witch.

Spells only from PHB to begin with, though. I'm giving the DM a long list of other spells I'd want to learn, though, if he works them into our world and encounters.

[Nifft]

In terms of spells, my go-to list would be:

Core:
L1: silent image, grease
L2: alter self, glitterdust, suggestion
L3: glibness, dispel magic

Non-Core Requests:
L1: inspirational boost (+1 to Inspire Courage), improvisation (2x level as floating skill bonus)
L2: mask of the ideal (bonus to Charisma skills and Charisma checks)
L3: disobedience (one target immune to mind-affecting effects for 1 hour/level)

Pool party funds to buy a wand of identify, which 3 of the PCs can share.


In terms of feats, you don't qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration (from Dragon Magic), but whatever. It's great but it's not necessary -- the attack bonus your regular Inspire Courage grants is probably going to be amazing on the Monk, for example.

The first non-Core feat I'd suggest you request is Obtain Familiar (C.Arcane, available at character level 3), which gives you free Alertness, another +3 bonus to a skill, a helper who will sneak through the bars and steal the cell keys, and you can share spells -- hilarious stuff like glibness but also straight-up powerful stuff like improvisation or alter self.


Regarding skills, the big question is: UMD or not UMD? Your required skills are Concentration + Perform. With 10 Intelligence, and without UMD, you could snag 4 social skills.

On the other hand, using Wizard & Druid wands might be great -- but you're in a low-magic world, so you might never see one of those. I dunno how to advise you here.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks, Nifft.

I don't understand why a bard would not max out UMD. The limited list of spells known, and many of the good spells being not on your list, means that you need wands. Lots of wands. Or runestaves, but I don't we'll see any of these in our game.

I have similar lists of spells to know
I'm adding Cause Fear and Scare (prerequisites for Dread Witch)

And Haste at L3, of course. I'd spam that all day with four martial types in the party.
Major image is also good (to enable replacing silent image at higher levels).

I had never noticed Mask of the Ideal before. Wow.... that's excellent for a spell you might learn at low levels, and then perhaps trade out when you have many ranks in those skills. Thanks.

For out-of-books I would endorse Improvisation, and Inspirational Boost. Those are incredibly useful.

Also:
L1: Master's Touch (grant +4 to skill check): I', train out inspire competence for inspire defiance.
L2: Harmonize (start bardic music as a move action), Swift invisibility
L3: Adoration of the Frightful (scared creatures are friendly; very useful for a fear bard with +10 untyped bonus to intimidate from Dread Witch)
L4: Sculpt sound, Ruin Delver's Fortune. Sirine's Grace is good for CHA to AC. But Greater Invisibility is probably a better choice.

Desirable out of book feats include:

Melodic Casting (can cast while maintaining bardic music, use perform for concentration checks)
Haunting Melody (add fear to any performance)
Doomspeak (curse enemy for -10 to saves, attacks and skill checks --possibly the best debuff in the whole game!)
Captivating Melody (use a BM to increase DC of illusion or enchantment)
Disguise Spell Metamagic (mask spell V and S components of a spell cast while performing)
Chaos Music (bardic music is discordant; Up to +4 to Bard levels (max of your HD) for bardic music, make up for lost bard levels from Dread Witch.)
Requium (Music affects undead --Helpful if my necromancer friend makes undead minions)
Trickery Devotion


I had not considered Obtain Familiar. That's a good choice too. Hmmm... I usually avoid adding minions in a game with this many players (I just played a druid, and the AC's actions slow things down). But a raven who can talk and scout and bluff.... that has a lot of RP comedy value. Plus it fits with the fear and spookiness theme I'll have going.