Perpetual DM Struggling as a Player

[strangebloke]

Hi, I'm Strangebloke, and I'm a control freak.

Rant Incoming

Other than the first DND campaign I played in seven years ago, I'm the only person in my circle of friends who has DMed for more than 5-6 sessions. In the last campaign I got a bit burnt out due to the constant bickering, and now I'm a player again.

My best friend is the DM, and she is... really bad at DMing. She's only ever played one character, and her grasp on the rules and of the setting information is tenuous. She will frequently pause for several minutes in the middle of a session to figure something out. I help her with RAW stuff, but sometimes it's stuff like her deciding what town an NPC originally hails from. I don't mind when she messes up the rules, but I feel that all of her constant pausing really kills the flow of the game. I've tried to encourage her to be more confident, but this has only had limited success.

She's a really permissive DM, and many players (self included, at this point) spend most of the game on their phones or laptops. Many players show up late or leave early, which is slowing down the progress of the game even further. We're six sessions into Lost Mines of Phandelvr and we've had exactly one combat since we beat up the first goblin camp.

Other than her and I, all the players are new to TTRPGs, so this apparent slowness doesn't seem to bother them. They're fun, creative folks, but they tend to struggle with even the extreme basics of the rules. ("How do I attack?" gets asked about every three turns in combat.) They're also a lot younger than I am.

I'm a veteran player with a very forceful and competitive personality. It strains every fiber of my being to avoid dominating the game. I want to take charge in social interactions. I want to dictate party tactics. I want to pressure the DM into making rulings favorable to the party. This is how I've always played, but usually there's other strong-willed players and/or DMs to counter me. I built a very support-oriented character (grave cleric with 7 CHA) but the problem is mostly OOC.

TL;DR: Everyone elses' noobishness is hurting my enjoyment of the game. My loudness is probably preventing others from coming into their own as players. How can I:

1. have fun with a bunch of noobs without being a jerk
-and-
2. Restrain my well-intentioned impulses to meddle.

[GlenSmash!]

I found that my favorite way to handle something like this is to use a third party. If you come right out and say "Here's something I learned as a DM" you might come off as overbearing and controlling.

However, if you say here's where I learned some cool stuff and provide links to Mathew Coleville's, Matt Mercer's, or Satine Phoenix's tips and tricks for running the game (I'd wait on pointing any one to the Angry GM until they have more experience under their belt) it comes off far more helpful. Especially if you introduce it as "I was having a real hard time when I started DMing, here are some things that would have been a huge help to me".

[Angelalex242]

Ask permission:

"Would you like me to help you with ideas/your character/etc?"

They say yes or no, you respect the decision either way.

[Lombra]

Relax, and follow the pace of the game, she'll get better, the others will get better, just don't add pressure. Use your experience to roleplay between characters during the long pauses and help others understand their character. Don't be competitive... and that's a general rule of mine, let or help others shine, pick your character's specialties (which should be few) and just lead on those. Just enjoy the time spent together, take it easy.

[tatsuyashiba]

Hi strange bloke!

Couple ideas:

(1) Model good behavior. Show other players how to be ready for their turns in combat, e.g. knowing your actions, having cue cards/notes prepared, essentially modeleling the behavior for them. Try to use an easy system you think they could adopt, rather than just your expertise. Same goes for constructive party decisioning (rather than bickering).

(2) Take the noob GM out for drinks or coffee, tell her you really enjoy the game and a chance to play, and then offer constructive feedback. Use the “sandwhich” technique aka compliment constructive criticism compliment. Rather than one nice thing and then a long list of gripes.

(3) Breathe. It’s just a game, hopefully with friends. Try to enjoy the social aspect maybe by preparing food or snacks, and enjoying the fact that others are enjoying themselves.

(4) Be a party facilitator/leader. This is where you engage that competitive part of your mind. Compete with and challenge yourself. Can you help mentor newbie players on D&D 5e and what it means to be a gamer? Can you learn group facilitation techniques- essentially the same as the real world / business world when it comes to group dynamics and leadership?

Good luck!

[LankyOgre]

A couple of thoughts that might help could be
1) put away your phone and lead by example. You've said that everyone is showing up late, leaving early, and on their phone. So do your best not to do these three things. Keep yourself engaged, whether its RPing with other party members or just flowcharting crazy options.
a)If you are there at the beginning or end with only a few players, see if they are willing to talk about their characters. Chat about character options. See if they have RP ideas, etc. or chat with the DM about these things. See if you can help her find some random generation table. I frequently keep a randomly generated list of names and cities to refer to when I'm GMing.

2)See if you can create a flow chart or cheat sheet for some of the players. Boil down the basic attack and spell options and make numbers and dice easy to identify. I once color coded a players character sheet with dice color and pictures of the appropriate size dice.
(I feel your pain on this one though. I'm currently in a game and we have a couple of players who continuously ask how to attack, what damage dice to roll, never know any modifiers, etc. For some reason the d8 and d10 are really confusing.)

[strangebloke]

However, if you say here's where I learned some cool stuff and provide links to Mathew Coleville's, Matt Mercer's, or Satine Phoenix's tips and tricks for running the game (I'd wait on pointing any one to the Angry GM until they have more experience under their belt) it comes off far more helpful. Especially if you introduce it as "I was having a real hard time when I started DMing, here are some things that would have been a huge help to me".
I actually have already done this! When I hang out with the DM outside of the game, I have usually taken to pulling up Matt Mercer's videos. Ostensibly, its for my own entertainment. :smallwink:

Ask permission:

"Would you like me to help you with ideas/your character/etc?"

They say yes or no, you respect the decision either way.
They always say yes. What they need to do is struggle a bit and figure things out. If they get used to leaning on me, they'll never learn.

Relax, and follow the pace of the game, she'll get better, the others will get better, just don't add pressure. Use your experience to roleplay between characters during the long pauses and help others understand their character. Don't be competitive... and that's a general rule of mine, let or help others shine, pick your character's specialties (which should be few) and just lead on those. Just enjoy the time spent together, take it easy.
TAKE A BREATH? RELAX? I'm SUPER relaxed, thank you very much.

I am trying to do this, of course. But saying "Relax!" is the surest way to make sure that I'm stressed out. I'm not competitive in the sense that I need to be the best damage dealer or whatever. I'm playing a horribly unoptimzed goliath cleric who predominantly takes the aid action or casts support spells. I'm competitive in that I want the party as a whole to destroy the next encounter, hence why I want to give out 'advice.'

Hi strange bloke!

Couple ideas:

(1) Model good behavior. Show other players how to be ready for their turns in combat, e.g. knowing your actions, having cue cards/notes prepared, essentially modeleling the behavior for them. Try to use an easy system you think they could adopt, rather than just your expertise. Same goes for constructive party decisioning (rather than bickering).

(2) Take the noob GM out for drinks or coffee, tell her you really enjoy the game and a chance to play, and then offer constructive feedback. Use the “sandwhich” technique aka compliment constructive criticism compliment. Rather than one nice thing and then a long list of gripes.

(3) Breathe. It’s just a game, hopefully with friends. Try to enjoy the social aspect maybe by preparing food or snacks, and enjoying the fact that others are enjoying themselves.

(4) Be a party facilitator/leader. This is where you engage that competitive part of your mind. Compete with and challenge yourself. Can you help mentor newbie players on D&D 5e and what it means to be a gamer? Can you learn group facilitation techniques- essentially the same as the real world / business world when it comes to group dynamics and leadership?

Good luck!

1. Good point. I do try to stay attentive and engaged, although it is hard when several of the other players... aren't.

2. But what if she thinks, that its, like, a date??? (I kid, she's my SO. I have talked to her. She is getting better, but it's a long road.)

3. My issue here is that while I can easily play video games or drink alcohol or eat food to relax, this kind of conflicts with point #1.

4. Not quite sure what you're saying here. I've been trying to prompt players. For example, if I want the elven ranger to scout ahead in a dark cave, I'll grumble: "I hate caves. Can't see worth anything in this murky dark. Elves or Orcs can watch you without you ever knowing they're there." Or I'll get into a social encounter and if no one replies to the NPC I'll just elbow the bard. "You deal with this guy, if I talk to him I'll just punch him."

[GlenSmash!]

I actually have already done this! When I hang out with the DM outside of the game, I have usually taken to pulling up Matt Mercer's videos. Ostensibly, its for my own entertainment. :smallwink:

They always say yes. What they need to do is struggle a bit and figure things out. If they get used to leaning on me, they'll never learn.

TAKE A BREATH? RELAX? I'm SUPER relaxed, thank you very much.

I am trying to do this, of course. But saying "Relax!" is the surest way to make sure that I'm stressed out. I'm not competitive in the sense that I need to be the best damage dealer or whatever. I'm playing a horribly unoptimzed goliath cleric who predominantly takes the aid action or casts support spells. I'm competitive in that I want the party as a whole to destroy the next encounter, hence why I want to give out 'advice.'


1. Good point. I do try to stay attentive and engaged, although it is hard when several of the other players... aren't.

2. But what if she thinks, that its, like, a date??? (I kid, she's my SO. I have talked to her. She is getting better, but it's a long road.)

3. My issue here is that while I can easily play video games or drink alcohol or eat food to relax, this kind of conflicts with point #1.

4. Not quite sure what you're saying here. I've been trying to prompt players. For example, if I want the elven ranger to scout ahead in a dark cave, I'll grumble: "I hate caves. Can't see worth anything in this murky dark. Elves or Orcs can watch you without you ever knowing they're there." Or I'll get into a social encounter and if no one replies to the NPC I'll just elbow the bard. "You deal with this guy, if I talk to him I'll just punch him."

Sounds like you are trying all sorts of good things.

From after here I'd try to find my exact point of intoxication where I'm not bothered by things but not too impaired either. Something I like to call 2 whiskey Glen :smallwink:

[strangebloke]

Sounds like you are trying all sorts of good things.

From after here I'd try to find my exact point of intoxication where I'm not bothered by things but not too impaired either. Something I like to call 2 whiskey Glen :smallwink:

Part of the problem is, I usually come into the campaign straight off of work, so I'm really still stressed when I show up. My level of stress tends to accumulate as I inevitably wait an hour or two for the dern kids to show up. (or flake completely and just not tell us.) I'm the only one with a full time job, but the others just seem to have trouble planning their social calendars. Which is understandable, to some extent. Younger folks don't have as much control over some things.

Nonetheless, were I DM, I would have kicked out of a few of these players a while ago.

...But I'm not, and therein lies the rub.

[GlenSmash!]

Part of the problem is, I usually come into the campaign straight off of work, so I'm really still stressed when I show up. My level of stress tends to accumulate as I inevitably wait an hour or two for the dern kids to show up. (or flake completely and just not tell us.) I'm the only one with a full time job, but the others just seem to have trouble planning their social calendars. Which is understandable, to some extent. Younger folks don't have as much control over some things.

Nonetheless, were I DM, I would have kicked out of a few of these players a while ago.

...But I'm not, and therein lies the rub.

That's tough. We don't even get to play until after the little ones go to bed, so I usually get some time to de-stress and eat before we get into it.

Our struggle is tired parents trying to stay awake past 2 hours into the session.

[LankyOgre]

That's tough. We don't even get to play until after the little ones go to bed, so I usually get some time to de-stress and eat before we get into it.

Our struggle is tired parents trying to stay awake past 2 hours into the session.

I understand that.

[OzDragon]

I would have her watch the Matt Mercer DM tips video series. They seem to be made more for the newer DM and are short and easy to understand.

Youtube: Matt Mercer DM tips

[Contrast]

2. But what if she thinks, that its, like, a date??? (I kid, she's my SO. I have talked to her. She is getting better, but it's a long road.)

Maybe try doing the session prep together with her then to try and figure out if there are going to be any bumps that session and how to smooth them out?

Assuming you trust yourself not to metagame of course/that wouldn't spoil your enjoyment as a player.

[KorvinStarmast]

My best friend is the DM, and she is... really bad at DMing.
We all had some problems as starting DM's. Work with her, in an encouraging manner. Growing new DM's is a duty of all DM's. (See a variety of posts on Angry DM's site about this .. he's right). All you can do is suggest to her "make a ruling and play on!" is the right thing to do. Cleaning up mistakes is for afterwards.

She's a really permissive DM, and many players (self included, at this point) spend most of the game on their phones or laptops. Many players show up late or leave early, which is slowing down the progress of the game even further. We're six sessions into Lost Mines of Phandelvr and we've had exactly one combat since we beat up the first goblin camp. Here's where you can exercise some leadership, specifically peer leadership. You need to talk to your fellow players and encourage them to (1) put the phones / laptops away (2) show up on time ... because they are being rude to you, and any other engaged player, by doing that.

Other than her and I, all the players are new to TTRPGs, so this apparent slowness doesn't seem to bother them. They're fun, creative folks, but they tend to struggle with even the extreme basics of the rules. ("How do I attack?" gets asked about every three turns in combat.) They're also a lot younger than I am.Your mentorship can greatly help them get the most out of the TTRPG. Use A Light Touch. That's your guiding principle. Coax, don't coerce.


I built a very support-oriented character (grave cleric with 7 CHA) but the problem is mostly OOC. Well done, I've done similar. Give the new players the spotlight whenever you can.

1. have fun with a bunch of noobs without being a jerk
-and-
2. Restrain my well-intentioned impulses to meddle.
See above, and best wishes.

[mephnick]

Honestly I have this problem as well. Not with mechanical issues or bad calls per say, I can help with that, but the ability to control the table is what I miss. Sitting there while all the other players go off on tangents, the DM tells a story about a different campaign, then talks about a movie they saw. A couple minutes here or there is fine, half the session is not. I want to just tell everyone to shut the hell up and focus on the game like I do as a DM. I feel my authority to do that when I'm just one of 6 players isn't really there to do that.

[KorvinStarmast]

I want to just tell everyone to shut the hell up and focus on the game like I do as a DM. I feel my authority to do that when I'm just one of 6 players isn't really there to do that. But you do have that authority, in a more limited sense, as a player at the table. You have every right to at least encourage your fellow players to focus on the game and the adventure, as you showed up to have fun rather than to waste your time on the other stuff. The difference is that you need to be encouraging rather than authoritative.

D&D isn't the only venue where people get together and some folks need to be encouraged to stay 'in the moment.' (Golf is one such, since slow play screws over the people playing behind us .. my son in law is awful about pulling out his damned cell phone while we golf. I have to sometimes be very direct with him about that degrading the golfing experience. Other times, if the day is just slow due to people in front of us, I don't mention it).

[mephnick]

The difference is that you need to be encouraging rather than authoritative.

Yeah, that's the problem :smalltongue:

[Hudsonian]

What is the environment like while yall are waiting? Where are yall playing? I have recently discovered that sitting down with a journal for a little while really helps de-stress quickly and privately even in a public setting. This also provides the opportunity to come up with some real zingers to let loose on the rest of the party (oneliners). But that is probably just my personality coming out. I too am team competitive, but if I have time I would also like to be the funniest character in the party. (which is hard as the DM :( )

What tools is the DM using? Is she using an excel sheet or quick reference for known NPC's? Is there a reference sheet for nearby towns/villages? Does she have a list of pre-built generic NPC's complete with character traits and physical descriptions? Does she have a DM screen (official or self made)? (note: this is more as a reference material... I have found that my table plays better without the screen. Personal preference FTW.)

If she is open to it, are there any ways that you can help her realize when the table is getting off track and pull the discussion back to the game? Does she view you as the experienced DM that can help her get better at this new skill? I know that early on in my marriage if I had started trying to "teach/Mentor" it would have been bad for the relationship. Which is more important than the game and how it is run. I don't want to say that you should ask to advise her if it would create undue tension.

[willdaBEAST]

(4) Be a party facilitator/leader. This is where you engage that competitive part of your mind. Compete with and challenge yourself. Can you help mentor newbie players on D&D 5e and what it means to be a gamer? Can you learn group facilitation techniques- essentially the same as the real world / business world when it comes to group dynamics and leadership?

I think you've addressed this point a bit OP and I recognize the conflict between trying to role-play a character with 7 CHA and trying to avoid being an OOC player dictator. I'm dealing with it in the AL game I play in. I went from playing a brilliant strategic genius character to playing a simple minded follower and that has led to a lack of leadership, making even simple party decisions bog down. I constantly feel like I have to compromise the type of character I'm trying to role-play in order to accommodate the somewhat random party composition.

As a fellow competitive person, I've learned a lot about interpersonal skills playing pick up basketball. The standard coached approach to someone making a mistake is "wtf are you doing, you suck!" That may work for some people, but for the majority it'll make them shut down (not saying you're doing this). I would try a varied approach, feel out your party members and see what kind of communication reaches them. Some may respond to your role-playing prompts, some may need OOC advice, some may need encouragement and some may need conflict. This is a fair amount of work for you upfront, but I've found that after you find what motivates each person, you can influence them much more effectively and help get the best performance out of them.

As far as the DM making long pauses, I would help her foster improvisational skills, or help her with resources like the tables in Xanathar's guide that can quickly randomize personality traits, backgrounds, etc. I'd also reinforce that it doesn't have to be perfect, even making up a town name that sounds silly can open the opportunity for the party to visit it later. You can help her by taking notes on those kinds of details, so she can focus on keeping the pace of the game flowing.

[strangebloke]

I would have her watch the Matt Mercer DM tips video series. They seem to be made more for the newer DM and are short and easy to understand.

Youtube: Matt Mercer DM tips
Honestly we have been watching those, and I don't know how much they're really helpful in this case. Her main problem is a lack of confidence, not that her descriptions are bland or anything. I mean, her descriptions are kinda bland, but that takes practice. I'm doing a pretty good job coaching her, but ultimately this post is more selfish than that.

I want to have fun at this table.

What is the environment like while yall are waiting? Where are yall playing? I have recently discovered that sitting down with a journal for a little while really helps de-stress quickly and privately even in a public setting. This also provides the opportunity to come up with some real zingers to let loose on the rest of the party (oneliners). But that is probably just my personality coming out. I too am team competitive, but if I have time I would also like to be the funniest character in the party. (which is hard as the DM :( )

We're working through the starter set on Roll20. Most of the players are tagging in through the internet, and from there many of the problems come. All the NPC information is loaded into roll20, so from my point of view, all the heavy lifting has been done. The number of times i say "Just click 'perception' on your character sheet." Is frankly shocking.

Having an open journal is a good idea.


As far as the DM making long pauses, I would help her foster improvisational skills, or help her with resources like the tables in Xanathar's guide that can quickly randomize personality traits, backgrounds, etc. I'd also reinforce that it doesn't have to be perfect, even making up a town name that sounds silly can open the opportunity for the party to visit it later. You can help her by taking notes on those kinds of details, so she can focus on keeping the pace of the game flowing.
The rest of your post I agree with, but this I vehemently disagree with.

Consulting tables and rolling d100s does not under any circumstance make for a faster game. She is well aware of the towns though.

[Angelalex242]

If the other players give you permission to help, then get your Gandalf/Aragorn on and mentor those hobbits. They may make something of themselves, if you guide the way. Particularly with permanent decisions like "Which spell do I take" "Which feat do I take" etc.

[strangebloke]

If the other players give you permission to help, then get your Gandalf/Aragorn on and mentor those hobbits. They may make something of themselves, if you guide the way. Particularly with permanent decisions like "Which spell do I take" "Which feat do I take" etc.

I'm more concerned with them learning how to play in a meta game sense. I don't mind if the bard picks poor weapon sets too much, I mind if the player shows up two hours late.

I'm actually trying to prevent myself from mothering them regarding character creation. Even if they choose poorly, this is 5e. Everything does about what you'd expect, so it isn't like they're going to be punished for picking 'tavern brawler.' The feat will make you good at brawling in taverns!

[Armored Walrus]

Has your SO ever been in a game other than one you've run? She might feel she's in your shadow - so might the other players. I'd hate to give advice that entails not playing D&D, but you might try skipping one session? Maybe they and she, if they don't have you to lean on for a session, will find themselves growing to fill in that space. It would also put you in the position of not being the one with all the answers, since you'll come to the following session not knowing what happened in the previous session. It will turn the table, so to speak, and put them in a position of having to tell you what's going on, rather than vice versa.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, that's the problem :smalltongue:
It doesn't have to be. You need to give yourself a little mental routine to go through before each session, a couple of keywords in your head that will reset you, that will act to direct your effort to aid rather than direct. (I am a type A personality, so I've had to in teaching things use a mental "count to three, then speak" reminder to self key as one method to get around my instincts).

That said, people showing up late need to get peer pressure on them to not be rude. Make sure that they understand that you are not being funny when you mention how rude it is to the other players, and to the DM, to be late.