Schism and Su abilities (Planar Shepherd's Planar Bubble)

[InterstellarPro]

Can a Schism create the Planar Bubble effect from the Planar Shepherd class? The schism is limited to purely mental actions, and many supernatural abilities fall into this category. But, I was not sure about Planar Bubble.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can a Schism create the Planar Bubble effect from the Planar Shepherd class? The schism is limited to purely mental actions, and many supernatural abilities fall into this category. But, I was not sure about Planar Bubble.

All (SU) abilities are purely mental actions unless otherwise stated or reasonably -must- involve motion of some kind i.e. breath weapons.

I don't see why planar bubble would require any motion.

[InterstellarPro]

All (SU) abilities are purely mental actions unless otherwise stated or reasonably -must- involve motion of some kind i.e. breath weapons.

I don't see why planar bubble would require any motion.

The reason it has me confused is that it brings the physical traits of the plane with it. Is it simply a conscious effort to call the physical manifestation of the plane? Or does it require physical interaction with one's current plane? I'm the DM, so in the end, it will function however I say it functions, but I want to wrap my head around the mechanics before I introduce the NPC.

[Venger]

Can a Schism create the Planar Bubble effect from the Planar Shepherd class? The schism is limited to purely mental actions, and many supernatural abilities fall into this category. But, I was not sure about Planar Bubble.
Yes.


The reason it has me confused is that it brings the physical traits of the plane with it. Is it simply a conscious effort to call the physical manifestation of the plane? Or does it require physical interaction with one's current plane? I'm the DM, so in the end, it will function however I say it functions, but I want to wrap my head around the mechanics before I introduce the NPC.

Yes, it's just a conscious effort, because as Kelb said, supernatural abilities are purely mental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) If you want your game to follow D&D rules, then yes, it's allowed.

[TallerSpine]

Yes.



Yes, it's just a conscious effort, because as Kelb said, supernatural abilities are purely mental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) If you want your game to follow D&D rules, then yes, it's allowed.
I do not disagree, necessarily, but nowhere in the link you provided does it describe a supernatural ability as a purely mental action. It says it does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but it appears to remain silent on the issue of physical requirements to activate. It likely leaves this up to the DM to decide. It seems to be activatable with less than a thought (As it never requires a concentration checks). Planar bubble requires concentration, but apparently being injured while concentrating either always or never breaks concentration (with the general consensus being never).

Anyway, I agree with the other two responses. This is a purely mental action.

[Venger]

I do not disagree, necessarily, but nowhere in the link you provided does it describe a supernatural ability as a purely mental action. It says it does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but it appears to remain silent on the issue of physical requirements to activate. It likely leaves this up to the DM to decide. It seems to be activatable with less than a thought (As it never requires a concentration checks). Planar bubble requires concentration, but apparently being injured while concentrating either always or never breaks concentration (with the general consensus being never).

Anyway, I agree with the other two responses. This is a purely mental action.

Like spell-like abilities, they have no components. With no verbal, somatic, or material components, it is a purely mental action. Unlike say martial maneuvers, it does not specify that you must be able to move.

[InterstellarPro]

Yes.



Yes, it's just a conscious effort, because as Kelb said, supernatural abilities are purely mental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) If you want your game to follow D&D rules, then yes, it's allowed.


Like spell-like abilities, they have no components. With no verbal, somatic, or material components, it is a purely mental action. Unlike say martial maneuvers, it does not specify that you must be able to move.

Thank you, Venger. I understand your ultimate decision, but I have not seen anything in the rules to define what a "purely mental action" is. As TallerSpine says, I think it may be an issue of the rules designers inadvertently leaving it up to the DM to make the determination of what exactly constitutes a "purely mental" action. The closest we have to a description is that the schism mind can manifest your powers as a "purely mental" action. It does not say if the schism mind has access to other abilities your character possesses. Are the abilities only granted to the schism mind if they are explicitly stated? Such as "Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is." Can it cast spells? The power does not specify. While it seems a decent ruling to say that the second mind can cast spells, but only as if it had six fewer levels in your caster class (meaning it will lose access to your highest three spell levels).

It does not say anything about other abilities. Since it set the precedent of explicitly stating that when it does allow the second mind to use a character's ability, the decided absence of activating Supernatural abilities may be lacking. Suppose the character activates the supernatural ability. Can the second mind concentrate on it? Again, that is unclear. The only "purely mental" action it expressly states is available is the ability to manifest powers. Perhaps that is all it can do.


I do not disagree, necessarily, but nowhere in the link you provided does it describe a supernatural ability as a purely mental action. It says it does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but it appears to remain silent on the issue of physical requirements to activate. It likely leaves this up to the DM to decide. It seems to be activatable with less than a thought (As it never requires a concentration checks). Planar bubble requires concentration, but apparently being injured while concentrating either always or never breaks concentration (with the general consensus being never).

Anyway, I agree with the other two responses. This is a purely mental action.

You bring up a good point. It does seem like it is up to the DM to decide. They give very little explanation of what a "purely mental" action is.


All (SU) abilities are purely mental actions unless otherwise stated or reasonably -must- involve motion of some kind i.e. breath weapons.

I don't see why planar bubble would require any motion.

I have not found this reference that all supernatural abilities are purely mental actions. Is that a "common sense" understanding? Or did you find that somewhere explicitly stated? It makes sense to me, too, but I want to verify whether this is established by RAW or whether it is personal interpretation.

I found a similar question in the Pathfinder forums:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n0s9?What-the-heck-is-a-mental-action

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have not found this reference that all supernatural abilities are purely mental actions. Is that a "common sense" understanding? Or did you find that somewhere explicitly stated? It makes sense to me, too, but I want to verify whether this is established by RAW or whether it is personal interpretation.

As Venger pointed out, SU abilities lack verbal and somatic components, meaning that they neither require specific words nor specific motions. They also lack any clause specifying that a creature must be able to move or not be helpless or anything to that effect. This being the case, requiring anything other than a simple act of will to activate them would be adding a rule where none currently exists; a houserule.

The only notable exceptions are those that are rider effects on some other action, breath attacks (for obvious reasons), and anything that explicitly requires some kind of motion in its description. The only things that are explicitly purely mental actions are activating psionic powers and psi-like abilities.

[InterstellarPro]

As Venger pointed out, SU abilities lack verbal and somatic components, meaning that they neither require specific words nor specific motions. They also lack any clause specifying that a creature must be able to move or not be helpless or anything to that effect. This being the case, requiring anything other than a simple act of will to activate them would be adding a rule where none currently exists; a houserule.

The only notable exceptions are those that are rider effects on some other action, breath attacks (for obvious reasons), and anything that explicitly requires some kind of motion in its description. The only things that are explicitly purely mental actions are activating psionic powers and psi-like abilities.

That makes sense. So, it is a houserule that it is anything other than a simple act of will, and therefore, also, a houserule that it is a simple act of will. Since the rules are silent on the issue, we have no choice but to create a houserule. I agree completely.

There is some verbiage in the Fuse Flesh power. There it says a creature who fails its save, but does not lose its senses can take purely mental actions (such as manifesting a power).
However, if it fails the save and loses its senses, then the creature also loses all Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-like Abilities, as well as its ability to manifest powers (if any).

That is anything but definitive, though. But, I do agree it seems like a decent houserule to say that any ability that does not involve motion or speech and is Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-like, a Spell (with Eschew Materials, Silent, Still, and no divine or arcane focuses?), Psi-like, or a Power would qualify.

Anyway, what about what abilities are available to the schism mind? It explicitly states that you can manifest with an ML six lower than normal. What about spellcasting? What about Supernatural or Spell-like abilities? Are those abilities available? Suppose I am a Telepath 5/Wizard 5/Cerebromancer 10? I have 8th level powers and 8th level spells. With Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell, can the Schism mind cast 8th level spells that are silent, still, and have no material components? Or does it lose 6 levels of spellcasting (so it can cast up to 5th level spells)? Can it use the character's spell-like and/or psi-like abilities? Or, as this thread is discussing, is it capable of using the character's supernatural abilities?

[Venger]

Thank you, Venger. I understand your ultimate decision, but I have not seen anything in the rules to define what a "purely mental action" is. As TallerSpine says, I think it may be an issue of the rules designers inadvertently leaving it up to the DM to make the determination of what exactly constitutes a "purely mental" action. The closest we have to a description is that the schism mind can manifest your powers as a "purely mental" action. It does not say if the schism mind has access to other abilities your character possesses. Are the abilities only granted to the schism mind if they are explicitly stated? Such as "Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is." Can it cast spells? The power does not specify. While it seems a decent ruling to say that the second mind can cast spells, but only as if it had six fewer levels in your caster class (meaning it will lose access to your highest three spell levels).
An action that is not explicitly stated to require movement, such as somatic components, is purely mental.

Schism lists manifesting a power as an example of a purely mental action. It is not an exhaustive list. Many other things are purely mental actions. That's why it says "such as" manifest a power and not "it can only manifest powers."

Of course you can cast spells because of transparency. It is not necessary for schism to explain this because the rule is already present elsewhere.



It does not say anything about other abilities. Since it set the precedent of explicitly stating that when it does allow the second mind to use a character's ability, the decided absence of activating Supernatural abilities may be lacking. Suppose the character activates the supernatural ability. Can the second mind concentrate on it? Again, that is unclear. The only "purely mental" action it expressly states is available is the ability to manifest powers. Perhaps that is all it can do.
That's because that isn't how the game is written. Every spell can't have an exhaustive list of all possible actions. It only lists prohibited ones. It says only purely mental so that means your second mind can't grapple or trip someone or what have you.

Yes, the second mind can concentrate on it because concentration is a purely mental action.

Again, it says "such as" manifest powers, not "you may only manifest powers."


I have not found this reference that all supernatural abilities are purely mental actions. Is that a "common sense" understanding? Or did you find that somewhere explicitly stated? It makes sense to me, too, but I want to verify whether this is established by RAW or whether it is personal interpretation.
It is RAW. Supernatural abilities do not require non-mental actions, so they are mental only.

[InterstellarPro]

It is RAW. Supernatural abilities do not require non-mental actions, so they are mental only.

So, because no supernatural abilities require non-mental actions...

Except breath weapons
Martial maneuvers
An Aboleth's Enslave ability, which requires sight
An Allip's Babble ability, which requires the allip's ability to physically produce sound
Any creature's alternate form ability, which requires the creature to physically change form, or would that be purely mental because they only need to think about changing form to enact a change in form?
An Astral Deva's Stun ability
A trumpet archon's trumpet, although it does say that it produces music if the archon wills it, so maybe it does not require a physical action... not sure on this one.
.
.
.

It actually appears that the majority of supernatural abilities are difficult to classify whether they are "purely mental" or not. So, by RAW, there is no ruling. There are far too many exceptions to say that it is RAW. You have generated a houserule. And as I said above, it is a decent one, but it is a houserule.

Back to my question: what houserule might I use for which abilities are available to the schism mind? Magic/Psionic transparency is a faulty argument. Psionics are limited by manifester level. A psion with a manifester level of 15 can manifest up to 8th level powers. A schism mind has a manifester level of 9, so can manifest up to 5th level powers. A wizard can still cast 8th level spells, even if his caster level is only 1st level. The lower caster level may affect the duration of spells, but it would not affect DC or spell level.

[Venger]

So, because no supernatural abilities require non-mental actions...

Except breath weapons
Martial maneuvers
An Aboleth's Enslave ability, which requires sight
An Allip's Babble ability, which requires the allip's ability to physically produce sound
Any creature's alternate form ability, which requires the creature to physically change form, or would that be purely mental because they only need to think about changing form to enact a change in form?
An Astral Deva's Stun ability
A trumpet archon's trumpet, although it does say that it produces music if the archon wills it, so maybe it does not require a physical action... not sure on this one.

by strict RAW, breath weapons actually don't require it, but Kelb is suggesting it as a reasonable house rule, such as the common one that monsters gain the prone condition when they die, which I think is fairly reasonable

martial maneuvers, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are not supernatural abilities.

the few that are fall under the larger rule of specific trumping general that you must be able to move to do a martial maneuver

allip is an example of specific trumping general, as Kelb and I both referred to.

alternate form does not require movement. that would be a houserule

astral deva's stun ability is separate from the attack (a physical action) itself

will is a mental action

again, no one said "no supernatural ability ever requires non-mental action," both of us said the exact opposite, so I'm not sure what you think this random list is proving.


It actually appears that the majority of supernatural abilities are difficult to classify whether they are "purely mental" or not. So, by RAW, there is no ruling. There are far too many exceptions to say that it is RAW. You have generated a houserule. And as I said above, it is a decent one, but it is a houserule.
No, they are not. If it says you have to move or speak, then you do. If it doesn't, you don't. You may also choose to houserule that you can't do things like breath weapon through schism if you want to.

There are dozens of exceptions to literally every rule in this game. It doesn't mean you ignore the rule. I have made no houserule.


Back to my question: what houserule might I use for which abilities are available to the schism mind? Magic/Psionic transparency is a faulty argument. Psionics are limited by manifester level. A psion with a manifester level of 15 can manifest up to 8th level powers. A schism mind has a manifester level of 9, so can manifest up to 5th level powers. A wizard can still cast 8th level spells, even if his caster level is only 1st level. The lower caster level may affect the duration of spells, but it would not affect DC or spell level.

What is your npc's build and special abilities so you can decide based on those rather than make houserules about every possible action one can take in the game?

It's not a faulty argument, it's citing the actual rules of the game.

The rest is all wrong. Due to transparency, you would be able to cast spells at your caster level -6.

A wizard cannot cast an 8th level spell with a caster level of 1, it's against the rules. You must meet the minimum caster level for a spell in order to cast it.

[InterstellarPro]

by strict RAW, breath weapons actually don't require it, but Kelb is suggesting it as a reasonable house rule, such as the common one that monsters gain the prone condition when they die, which I think is fairly reasonable

martial maneuvers, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are not supernatural abilities.

the few that are fall under the larger rule of specific trumping general that you must be able to move to do a martial maneuver

allip is an example of specific trumping general, as Kelb and I both referred to.

alternate form does not require movement. that would be a houserule

astral deva's stun ability is separate from the attack (a physical action) itself

will is a mental action

again, no one said "no supernatural ability ever requires non-mental action," both of us said the exact opposite, so I'm not sure what you think this random list is proving.
I went through the SRD, monster by monster, and about half of the supernatural abilities I found were difficult to classify as purely mental or not. I literally went in alphabetical order. I was not attempting to prove anything. I was giving fairly statistically significant evidence, though.



No, they are not. If it says you have to move or speak, then you do. If it doesn't, you don't. You may also choose to houserule that you can't do things like breath weapon through schism if you want to.

There are dozens of exceptions to literally every rule in this game. It doesn't mean you ignore the rule. I have made no houserule.

It is your rule that a "purely mental" action is one that requires no movement or speech. Nowhere in RAW is that listed. I am not ignoring rules by saying that by you creating those requirements, it is a houserule. Again, it is a good houserule, but it is a houserule.




What is your npc's build and special abilities so you can decide based on those rather than make houserules about every possible action one can take in the game?

It's not a faulty argument, it's citing the actual rules of the game.

The rest is all wrong. Due to transparency, you would be able to cast spells at your caster level -6.

A wizard cannot cast an 8th level spell with a caster level of 1, it's against the rules. You must meet the minimum caster level for a spell in order to cast it.

I see in the rules that a wizard must be of a certain level to cast a certain level of spells, but I see nothing stating that a wizard must possess any specific caster level. If the wizard is targeted by an effect that raises his caster level for spell effects, that does not increase the maximum level of spell he may cast. Similarly, there is no ruling that a wizard whose caster level decreases becomes incapable of casting certain spell levels. There are several creatures with spell-like abilities where the caster level is lower than the minimum level required for a wizard to cast the spell. If you have a rules reference for your point, I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

Let's look at similar spells that create duplicates of the caster at lower levels. There is similacrum:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm

You create a copy with half the original's hit dice (including character levels). This is not a decrease in caster level, it is a decrease in actual level. In fact, I have never seen a spell that only decreases caster level as a way to limit spellcasting ability. I have only seen ones that decrease actual level.

You are still creating your own rulings and claiming them as RAW. They are not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, because no supernatural abilities require non-mental actions...

Except breath weapons
Martial maneuvers
An Aboleth's Enslave ability, which requires sight
An Allip's Babble ability, which requires the allip's ability to physically produce sound
Any creature's alternate form ability, which requires the creature to physically change form, or would that be purely mental because they only need to think about changing form to enact a change in form?
An Astral Deva's Stun ability
A trumpet archon's trumpet, although it does say that it produces music if the archon wills it, so maybe it does not require a physical action... not sure on this one.
.
.
.

It actually appears that the majority of supernatural abilities are difficult to classify whether they are "purely mental" or not. So, by RAW, there is no ruling. There are far too many exceptions to say that it is RAW. You have generated a houserule. And as I said above, it is a decent one, but it is a houserule.

Back to my question: what houserule might I use for which abilities are available to the schism mind? Magic/Psionic transparency is a faulty argument. Psionics are limited by manifester level. A psion with a manifester level of 15 can manifest up to 8th level powers. A schism mind has a manifester level of 9, so can manifest up to 5th level powers. A wizard can still cast 8th level spells, even if his caster level is only 1st level. The lower caster level may affect the duration of spells, but it would not affect DC or spell level.

You misunderstand. What's been said, and continues to be the case, is that a SU ability is a purely mental action unless otherwise specified.

Most of what you listed is otherwise specified.

Martial maneuvers aren't SU normally but when they are they still follow the general rules for maneuvers; must be able to move in general and specifies how the character moves. Not purely mental.

You aren't rendered blind by paralysis so sight doesn't depend on motion by any rule I'm aware of. The aboleth's enslave ability doesn't otherwise specify any movement or speech therefore it is purely mental.

The Allip's babble, as you noted, requires it to make noise and is therefore not purely mental. Note, however, that it doesn't require any action and is more of an aura.

Alternate form requires no movement. Purely mental.

Astral Deva's stun is a rider effect that is activated as part of another action.

Do I really need to explain what it means to play a trumpet? Not purely mental.



It's not difficult it just requires you to pay attention. If the ability doesn't specify any particular act to activate then it's purely mental. This is the nature of an exception based system; it lays out general rules that you then need specific exceptions to break.

[Venger]

I went through the SRD, monster by monster, and about half of the supernatural abilities I found were difficult to classify as purely mental or not. I literally went in alphabetical order. I was not attempting to prove anything. I was giving fairly statistically significant evidence, though.
I'm not sure why you did that, we've stated many times what the rule is about supernatural abilities.


It is your rule that a "purely mental" action is one that requires no movement or speech. Nowhere in RAW is that listed. I am not ignoring rules by saying that by you creating those requirements, it is a houserule. Again, it is a good houserule, but it is a houserule.
It's not a houserule. That's how supernatural abilities work unless otherwise specified.


I see in the rules that a wizard must be of a certain level to cast a certain level of spells, but I see nothing stating that a wizard must possess any specific caster level. If the wizard is targeted by an effect that raises his caster level for spell effects, that does not increase the maximum level of spell he may cast. Similarly, there is no ruling that a wizard whose caster level decreases becomes incapable of casting certain spell levels. There are several creatures with spell-like abilities where the caster level is lower than the minimum level required for a wizard to cast the spell. If you have a rules reference for your point, I would be very happy to be proven wrong.
it's right in there (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel) where are you looking?

There is a rule about it. Not a ruling, because again, no amount of judgement is needed.


Let's look at similar spells that create duplicates of the caster at lower levels. There is similacrum:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm

You create a copy with half the original's hit dice (including character levels). This is not a decrease in caster level, it is a decrease in actual level. In fact, I have never seen a spell that only decreases caster level as a way to limit spellcasting ability. I have only seen ones that decrease actual level.
Irrelevant.

Reversed caster lens and damp magic impede caster level for this reason.


You are still creating your own rulings and claiming them as RAW. They are not.
No, I am not. I am citing rules and you are claiming that they're house rules.

I notice you didn't provide a list of your npc's powers so we could determine whether they might need to be nerfed under schism. Do you actually want any help with this, or what?


You misunderstand. What's been said, and continues to be the case, is that a SU ability is a purely mental action unless otherwise specified.

Most of what you listed is otherwise specified.

Martial maneuvers aren't SU normally but when they are they still follow the general rules for maneuvers; must be able to move in general and specifies how the character moves. Not purely mental.

You aren't rendered blind by paralysis so sight doesn't depend on motion by any rule I'm aware of. The aboleth's enslave ability doesn't otherwise specify any movement or speech therefore it is purely mental.

The Allip's babble, as you noted, requires it to make noise and is therefore not purely mental. Note, however, that it doesn't require any action and is more of an aura.

Alternate form requires no movement. Purely mental.

Astral Deva's stun is a rider effect that is activated as part of another action.

Do I really need to explain what it means to play a trumpet? Not purely mental.



It's not difficult it just requires you to pay attention. If the ability doesn't specify any particular act to activate then it's purely mental. This is the nature of an exception based system; it lays out general rules that you then need specific exceptions to break.
Once more, well said.

One more time: supernatural abilities are purely mental unless otherwise specified. Any other random example of a supernatural ability that requires speech or motion that you dredge up is "otherwise specified"

[InterstellarPro]

You aren't rendered blind by paralysis so sight doesn't depend on motion by any rule I'm aware of. The aboleth's enslave ability doesn't otherwise specify any movement or speech therefore it is purely mental.
Looking requires a lot of muscles in the eye. It is not purely mental.


Alternate form requires no movement. Purely mental.
You are willing your body to physically change. Does that require muscle contractions? If it does, not purely mental.


Do I really need to explain what it means to play a trumpet? Not purely mental.

You keep going on about "unless otherwise stated". The trumpet archon specifically states that it is an act of pure will to produce music from the trumpet. It does not state that the archon must play the trumpet. Follow your own rulings if you are going to make them.



It's not difficult it just requires you to pay attention. If the ability doesn't specify any particular act to activate then it's purely mental. This is the nature of an exception based system; it lays out general rules that you then need specific exceptions to break.

Unless it does not give a baseline rule to determine what a purely mental action is, which is exactly the problem. At this point, we are going to have to agree to disagree that this is RAW. It is obvious to me that it is a good houserule. Your points are not winning me over, so let's move on.


I'm not sure why you did that, we've stated many times what the rule is about supernatural abilities.
You have stated multiple times your houserule on the topic, which I have now accepted as a houserule for my own games.


It's not a houserule. That's how supernatural abilities work unless otherwise specified.

You stated that because it does not say otherwise, supernatural abilities are purely mental. That is not a rule anywhere in the system. There is no definition of a purely mental action. You made the ruling for what you believe to be a purely mental action. It is nowhere to be found in the rules. The only example given in the rules is manifesting psionic powers. Everything else is what you decided was purely mental because "it does not say that it is not". Yet, there is no definition given for what makes something purely mental. You are using your interpretation to make that decision.


it's right in there (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel) where are you looking?

There is a rule about it. Not a ruling, because again, no amount of judgement is needed.
Thank you, an actual rules reference. I concede that point.


Irrelevant.

Reversed caster lens and damp magic impede caster level for this reason.
Fair enough.



No, I am not. I am citing rules and you are claiming that they're house rules.
No, you are not. You have cited an irrelevant rule for supernatural abilities that nowhere states they are purely mental, then claimed they are purely mental. This rules reference for caster level is the first rule you have cited that is actually relevant.



I notice you didn't provide a list of your npc's powers so we could determine whether they might need to be nerfed under schism. Do you actually want any help with this, or what?

Yes, I did. It is in the title of the thread. The NPC is a druid/ardent/planar shepherd with Expanded Knowledge to pick up Schism. Can the schism mind activate the planar shepherd's Planar Bubble and concentrate on it? That was the question. It has always been the question. People have said yes, because activating the planar bubble is a "purely mental" action. So, I generalized to asking about other abilities (ones that my one NPC does not have) because I wanted a better understanding of Schism.


One more time: supernatural abilities are purely mental unless otherwise specified. Any other random example of a supernatural ability that requires speech or motion that you dredge up is "otherwise specified"

Once more, there is no definition in the rules for "purely mental". If you are assigning your definition that it means "requires no speech or movement", then everything you have stated qualifies as "purely mental". But, that is your definition. It is definitely not in the rules.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Looking requires a lot of muscles in the eye. It is not purely mental.

I'm not sure where you're even getting this. The enslave ability isn't a gaze attack and creatures in d&d have no facing anyway. The only requirement here is the general line of sight rule which has nothing to do with the creature's sensory organs only whether there's an obstruction between them and the target.


You are willing your body to physically change. Does that require muscle contractions? If it does, not purely mental.

It doesn't say it does so it doesn't. This isn't anywhere near as hard as you're trying to make it.



You keep going on about "unless otherwise stated". The trumpet archon specifically states that it is an act of pure will to produce music from the trumpet. It does not state that the archon must play the trumpet. Follow your own rulings if you are going to make them.

Let's look:


An archon’s trumpet produces music of utter clarity, piercing beauty, and, if the trumpet archon wills it, paralyzing awe. All creatures except archons within 100 feet of the blast must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based. The archon can also command its trumpet to become a +4 greatsword as a free action.

That doesn't say that playing the trumpet is an act of will. It says that the archon can will a supernatural effect to occur while it is playing its trumpet. I take it English isn't your native language?


Unless it does not give a baseline rule to determine what a purely mental action is, which is exactly the problem. At this point, we are going to have to agree to disagree that this is RAW. It is obvious to me that it is a good houserule. Your points are not winning me over, so let's move on.

In absence of something specific, words mean what they mean in English. "Mental" in this context is being contrasted with "physical." If you're doing something that requires no movement or speech, it's purely mental. You keep trying to add unspecified details to things to justify them being something other than purely mental but that's -you- adding things. Venger and I are trying to get across to you that the answer you were seeking is patently obvious if you simply take the text at its face value and don't add your own spin to things.

You're the DM. If you already knew what answer you wanted to hear, you didn't need to ask us.

[InterstellarPro]

You're the DM. If you already knew what answer you wanted to hear, you didn't need to ask us.

Do you really need me to quote the number of times that I have stated that I accept your houserule, and plan to use it in my campaign? I thank you for the advice. I accept the advice. Can we stop arguing over something that we clearly will never agree on? Even your quote about the trumpet archon betrays your point. It states that the archon's trumpet produces the music. It does not state that the archon must be playing it to produce that music. If it does not state it, then it does not happen. By RAW, a trumpet archon does not "play" its trumpet. It wills the music from it. Where did you read that the archon must play it?

My point is, we are discussing RAW = Rules As Written. Those rules are sometimes incomplete, or sometimes just silly and wrong. In those instances, we create houserules. Those houserules can be RAI = Rules As Intended. But, we have no way of truly knowing the authors' intents. It is not what the authors wrote exactly, but it makes sense as a rule. I agree with what has been written, as it makes sense. I disagree that it is RAW. Why is that such as issue for you?