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Crisis21
2018-03-06, 06:54 PM
So here is my attempt to recreate the Mystic Theurge, master of spellcasting flexibility, as a prestige class for 5e. The attempt was inspired by a previous poster submitting a Feat called 'Unified Spell Theory' that basically allowed multi-class spellcasters to always use Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier (or for Wisdom or Charisma casters to replace their spellcasting modifier with Intelligence).

As always, Please Evaluate And Comment Honestly.


Prestige Class: Mystic Theurge

Mystic Theurges are those who dedicate themselves to studying all forms of magic, from those that arise from rigorous study (Wizard), those that come from dedicated living (Cleric, Druid), and those that form from cultivated talent (Sorcerer, Bard). The requirements to even begin the journey as a Mystic Theurge are stringent and unforgiving.

Requirements:

Overall Character Level 15th: Becoming a Mystic Theurge requires a great deal of dedication, planning, talent, and study. Aspirants must have cross-trained in at least three different primary spellcasting classes as follows:
- 5 levels in a single primary spellcasting class using Intelligence (examples: Wizard).
- 5 levels in a single primary spellcasting class using Wisdom (examples: Cleric, Druid).
- 5 levels in a single primary spellcasting class using Charisma (examples: Bard, Sorcerer).

Intelligence 17 or greater: Training as a Mystic Theurge requires a great deal of intellect to even attempt. Those who do not display at least this much intelligence, understanding, and education will be turned away.

Magical Research Paper: Aspirants to become a Mystic Theurge must complete a well-composed and researched paper on their cross-class magical studies to be presented to an institution of higher magical learning for review. The minimum time necessary to complete such a paper is either one year or five levels, whichever is longer in-game. There is no guarantee that they will accept your paper and agree to train you as a Mystic Theurge, requiring you to spend at least six months revising your research paper before resubmitting it to the same or different institution.

Proficiency in the Arcana Skill: Those who cannot show at least basic understanding of Arcane knowledge, as an institution of magical learning judges such matters, are likely to be summarily dismissed. Depending on the institution being petitioned, proficiency in Religion, Nature, and/or History may also be required.

No levels in Warlock: The Warlock class carries with it a certain stigma among magical scholars. While many consider Warlocks a viable subject of magical study, almost all magical scholars view cutting a deal with another being for magical power in much the same way as non-magical scholars view a student sleeping with the Dean/Teachers in exchange for higher grades. As such, any aspirant found to have Warlock powers can expect to have their application summarily dismissed.

Class Stats:

Hit Dice: 1d6 per Mystic Theurge level level
Hit points 1d6 (4) + Constitution modifier per Mystic Theurge level

Proficiencies: Choose two of Arcana, Religion, Nature, or History. If you already have proficiency in the chosen skill, add double your proficiency bonus to checks made with that skill.

Leveling Guide:

Level 1: Unified Spell Theory, Bonus Cantrips, Triple Minor
Level 2: Triple Minor Improvement
Level 3: Triple Minor Improvement
Level 4: Triple Minor Improvement
Level 5: Triple Minor Improvement

Unified Spell Theory:
Intelligence is your spellcasting modifier for all of your spells, regardless of origin.

Bonus Cantrips:
You may select one cantrip from each of the spell lists of the three spellcasting classes you studied prior to becoing a Mystic Theurge. You learn these three cantrips.

Triple Minor:
The Mystic Theurge class is considered a full caster class for purposes of multi-class spellcasting progression as detailed in the PHB.
Each level in Mystic Theurge counts as an additional level in your three other full caster classes for purposes of preparing spells, spells known, and gaining class and archetype features. Note: This does not grant extra hit points, Ability Score Increases, or spell slots beyond what you would normally have as a full caster of your character level.
You gain each class's sixth level features at your first level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's seventh level features at your second level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's eighth level features at your third level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's ninth level features at your fourth level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's tenth level features at your fifth level of Mystic Theurge.

Enlightenment:
At your 5th level of Mystic Theurge, your Intelligence and Wisdom increase by 4. Your maximum Intelligence and Wisdom also increase by 4.

JNAProductions
2018-03-06, 07:18 PM
Eh... Really strict entrance, but you effectively end as effectively a level 30 character, with a 24 in your casting stat. I'm really, REALLY not a fan of "You start off less/more powerful, but end up more/less powerful, so it's all okay!" because (in this case) it'd SUCK being the level 15 person who has nothing better than cantrips and 3rd level spells, but then you'd overshadow everyone five levels later.

Crisis21
2018-03-06, 07:45 PM
Eh... Really strict entrance, but you effectively end as effectively a level 30 character, with a 24 in your casting stat. I'm really, REALLY not a fan of "You start off less/more powerful, but end up more/less powerful, so it's all okay!" because (in this case) it'd SUCK being the level 15 person who has nothing better than cantrips and 3rd level spells, but then you'd overshadow everyone five levels later.

The general idea is that this class requires at least as much dedication as remaining a single class character. Also, spellcasting progression for multi-classing is pretty straightforward in 5e. Each full caster class (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Sorcerer) gives +1 level for spellcasting progression for each level you have in it, each half-caster class (Paladin, Ranger) gives +1 level for spellcasting progression for each two levels you have in it, and each third-caster class (i.e. spellcasting archetypes for non-casters and Artificer) gives +1 level for spellcasting progression for each three levels you have in it.

So a 15th-level character who is Wizard 5, Cleric 5, and Bard 5 has available spell slots as if they were 15th level in any one of those classes. And remember, 'spells known' and 'prepared spells' can be for any level you have a spell slot for. So, this hypothetical character could know an 8th-level Bard spell and/or prepare Cleric or Wizard spells of that level. They just might not have as many of each as a typical full Cleric or Bard would at that level. The biggest downside is the MAD complexity of the triple-class, which Unified Spell Theory is meant to simplify, making it all dependent upon Intelligence.

JNAProductions
2018-03-06, 08:01 PM
I don't think you quite understood.

At level 15, you are a 5/5/5 multiclass. That's generally pretty supoptimal-playable, but not as much fun as a straight 15.

At level 16, you are effectively a 6/6/6, just with a little less HP and whatnot. That's still weaker than a straight 16, IMO.

But at level 17, you're effectively 7/7/7. That might be the tipping point.

By level 20, you're effectively a 10/10/10, or a level 30 character. That's insane. Plus, you didn't say how slots worked-do they get the slots of a 20th level character? Or a 30th?

To be clear, my main issue with the class is as follows:

To get into the class, you have to be significantly worse than a straight caster.

But, by the end, you are FAR more powerful than pretty much anything else.

Argothair
2018-03-06, 09:14 PM
You've both got a good point; as currently worded, the OP sounds like maybe it would award 30 levels' worth of multiclass spellcasting slots, but it's also true that D&D 5e is perfectly capable of handling multi-class casting, and the obviously correct way to interpret this class is that when you're Level 20, you have 20 levels of multiclass casting -- you just get the non-spell-casting tenth level features from all three of Wizard, Cleric, and Bard, or whatever three classes you picked.

I'm not convinced that D&D 5e needs or has room for Prestige Classes. I could be convinced, but this post doesn't really lay out the argument for them; it just sort of assumes that Prestige Classes would be cool. I worry that the player trying to get into Hogwarts or whatever to get his graduate degree will wind up hijacking the plot repeatedly to try to achieve his leveling goals. I imagine that would quickly stop being fun for the other players, and, frankly, for the GM. "Quick, Bob the Unimaginably Wise! We've got to stop the Vampire Lord from hypnotizing the heir to the throne of Ravenfell! Only you know the secret lore that would give us a chance to resist his fell powers!" "Eh, you guys go. I'm busy working on my thesis. Just like last week."

I'd also like to see some argument showing that it's both safe and effective to combine a bunch of 6th-level or 10th level abilities. If I mix War Cleric and Paladin, don't I just wind up with a wasted Extra Attack at 6th level? Seems ineffective. And there's *got* to be a way to abuse mixing the 10th-level abilities of three different classes. Seems unsafe.

I could be wrong, but I *think* this concept wants to be a subclass of Wizard or Sorcerer, not a prestige class. What if Wizards could trade away their spell refreshers and mastery of a particular school of arcane magic, for the ability to cast some kinds of Druid or Bard spells using her INT stat? Wouldn't that accomplish many of the goals of this prestige class without introducing entirely new mechanics?

Crisis21
2018-03-06, 09:32 PM
I don't think you quite understood.

At level 15, you are a 5/5/5 multiclass. That's generally pretty supoptimal-playable, but not as much fun as a straight 15.

At level 16, you are effectively a 6/6/6, just with a little less HP and whatnot. That's still weaker than a straight 16, IMO.

But at level 17, you're effectively 7/7/7. That might be the tipping point.

By level 20, you're effectively a 10/10/10, or a level 30 character. That's insane. Plus, you didn't say how slots worked-do they get the slots of a 20th level character? Or a 30th?

To be clear, my main issue with the class is as follows:

To get into the class, you have to be significantly worse than a straight caster.

But, by the end, you are FAR more powerful than pretty much anything else.

You don't get extra spell slots. I explicitly stated under Triple Minor that a level in Mystic Theurge counts as +1 level in a full caster class for purposes of spellcasting progression. At level 20, you have the spells of a level 20 full caster.

While you do get extra class features, what you don't get are:
Extra Ability Score Increases. Just the standard ones at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th. and 19th level. Multiclassing doesn't change that (except with Fighter and Rogue, but they're irrelevant here).
Extra hit points. Mystic Theurge gives you +1d6 (4) plus Constitution modifier hit points per level and nothing else.

Now, if the extra class features make this overpowered, then I can understand, but you seem to be arguing that this makes a player a level 30 spellcaster when they will really only be a level 20 spellcaster. Just one with a few more options than most multiclassing characters.


So, here's what a character may or may not be getting as a Mystic Theurge based on level 6-10 class features:


Intelligence-Based Casters

Wizard:
6th: +1 Wizard Spell Prepared, Arcane Tradition Feature
7th: +1 Wizard Spell Prepared
8th: +1 Wizard Spell Prepared
9th: +1 Wizard Spell Prepared
10th: +1 Wizard Cantrip, +1 Wizard Spell Prepared, Arcane Tradition Feature


Wisdom-Based Casters:

Cleric:
6th: +1 Cleric Spell Prepared, +1 use of Channel Divinity, Divine Domain Feature
7th: +1 Cleric Spell Prepared
8th: +1 Cleric Spell Prepared, Destroy Undead (CR 1), Divine Domain Feature
9th: +1 Cleric Spell Prepared
10th: +1 Cleric Cantrip, +1 Cleric Spell Prepared, Divine Intervention (10% success, recharges after long rest on failure or 1 week on success)

Druid:
6th: +1 Druid Spell Prepared, Druid Circle Feature
7th: +1 Druid Spell Prepared
8th: +1 Druid Spell Prepared, Wild Shape (CR 1 and Flying)
9th: +1 Druid Spell Prepared
10th: +1 Druid Cantrip, +1 Druid Spell Prepared, Druid Circle Feature


Charisma-Based Casters:

Bard:
6th: +1 Bard Spell Known, Countercharm, Bardic College Feature
7th: +1 Bard Spell Known
8th: +1 Bard Spell Known
9th: +1 Bard Spell Known, Song of Rest increases to d8
10th: +1 Bard Cantrip, Bardic Inspiration increases to d10, Expertise in two Skills you have proficiency in, Magical Secrets (+2 Bard Spells Known chosen from any class's spell list)

Sorcerer:
6th: +1 Sorcery Point, +1 Sorcery Spell Known, Sorcerous Origin Feature
7th: +1 Sorcery Point, +1 Sorcery Spell Known
8th: +1 Sorcery Point, +1 Sorcery Spell Known
9th: +1 Sorcery Point, +1 Sorcery Spell Known
10th: +1 Sorcery Point, +1 Sorcerer Cantrip, +1 Sorcery Spell Known, +1 Metamagic Option


Note that almost all of this relates to spells prepared or known, or what a spellcaster has the option of casting at any given time, NOT how many spells they can cast overall.

Actually, looking at this, I think I should leave off the 'capstone' of Enlightenment and just let the character have all the level 10 features as that comes to an impressive amount.



You've both got a good point; as currently worded, the OP sounds like maybe it would award 30 levels' worth of multiclass spellcasting slots, but it's also true that D&D 5e is perfectly capable of handling multi-class casting, and the obviously correct way to interpret this class is that when you're Level 20, you have 20 levels of multiclass casting -- you just get the non-spell-casting tenth level features from all three of Wizard, Cleric, and Bard, or whatever three classes you picked.

I'm not convinced that D&D 5e needs or has room for Prestige Classes. I could be convinced, but this post doesn't really lay out the argument for them; it just sort of assumes that Prestige Classes would be cool. I worry that the player trying to get into Hogwarts or whatever to get his graduate degree will wind up hijacking the plot repeatedly to try to achieve his leveling goals. I imagine that would quickly stop being fun for the other players, and, frankly, for the GM. "Quick, Bob the Unimaginably Wise! We've got to stop the Vampire Lord from hypnotizing the heir to the throne of Ravenfell! Only you know the secret lore that would give us a chance to resist his fell powers!" "Eh, you guys go. I'm busy working on my thesis. Just like last week."

I'd also like to see some argument showing that it's both safe and effective to combine a bunch of 6th-level or 10th level abilities. If I mix War Cleric and Paladin, don't I just wind up with a wasted Extra Attack at 6th level? Seems ineffective. And there's *got* to be a way to abuse mixing the 10th-level abilities of three different classes. Seems unsafe.

I could be wrong, but I *think* this concept wants to be a subclass of Wizard or Sorcerer, not a prestige class. What if Wizards could trade away their spell refreshers and mastery of a particular school of arcane magic, for the ability to cast some kinds of Druid or Bard spells using her INT stat? Wouldn't that accomplish many of the goals of this prestige class without introducing entirely new mechanics?

Prestige classes for 5e were brought up in one of the Unearthed Arcana articles posted on October 15, 2015 (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf). In it, some guidelines for a Prestige class were given, such as more stringent entry requirements than your typical multiclassing and 5 levels worth of features. I haven't done many prestige classes (this is my second), but I try to follow the general guideline and present features assuming a character took the class at the earliest opportunity.


Edit: Removed Enlightenment and clarified some wording on Triple Minor. What this class is designed to grant a player is not superior spellcasting power, but superior spellcasting options. Assuming an Intelligence of 20, a level 5 Mystic Theurge would be able to prepare 15 Wizard Spells and 15 Cleric or Druid Spells each day as well as know either 12 Sorcerer Spells (with 3 Metamagic options and 10 Sorcery Points) or 14 Bard Spells (2 from any class's spell list). In addition to this, they would know 6 Wizard Cantrips, 6 Cleric or 5 Druid Cantrips, and 5 Bard or 7 Sorcerer Cantrips.
In comparison, a straight level 20 Wizard with 20 INT would be able to prepare 25 Wizard spells plus what Spell Mastery and Signature Spell (and possibly their level 14 Archetype feature) allows them and know 5 Wizard Cantrips.

Actually, the most problematic thing about this class would be giving a player so many options that it slows down the game when they try and choose which one to use.

What I want to know most of all is if this increase in spellcasting options would be too powerful.

AvatarVecna
2018-03-06, 11:00 PM
In a normal game, you could play a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 who has spellcasting as a 20th lvl MC Caster, the class features of a Wizard 10, and the class features of a Cleric 10. In a game with this, you will have a Bard 5/Cleric 5/Wizard 5/MT 5 who has spellcasting as a 20th lvl MC Caster, the class features of a Wizard 10, the class features of a Cleric 10, and the class features of a Bard 10. Presuming that spellcasting is effectively half of a full caster's class features, that's 15 half-levels worth of non-spellcasting and 5 half-levels worth of spellcasting. However you slice it, you're getting the equivalent of 10 levels of features for 5 actual levels.

Of course, it's only worth it because your triple caster runs all their casting off of Int for some weird reason. If I were making a character any lower level than 16th level, I wouldn't even consider aiming for this. To get the most bang for my buck, realistically I need to be an Int lvl 5/Wis lvl 5/Cha lvl 5 character who has dumped Wis and Cha for more Int. The normal problem with theurge builds is that once you get into the late-game, you're so many spell levels behind that even upcasting your best low-level spells just isn't cutting it anymore, and this class actively forces you to make that problem worse for the vast majority of your career in exchange for the promise of it being slightly better at level 20 - whereas normally you'd have to theurge as Wizard 10/Cleric 10 (9th lvl slots, but max of 5th lvl spells in both classes), no you can add bard spells up to level 5 into that mix.

Crisis21
2018-03-06, 11:27 PM
In a normal game, you could play a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 who has spellcasting as a 20th lvl MC Caster, the class features of a Wizard 10, and the class features of a Cleric 10. In a game with this, you will have a Bard 5/Cleric 5/Wizard 5/MT 5 who has spellcasting as a 20th lvl MC Caster, the class features of a Wizard 10, the class features of a Cleric 10, and the class features of a Bard 10. Presuming that spellcasting is effectively half of a full caster's class features, that's 15 half-levels worth of non-spellcasting and 5 half-levels worth of spellcasting. However you slice it, you're getting the equivalent of 10 levels of features for 5 actual levels.

Of course, it's only worth it because your triple caster runs all their casting off of Int for some weird reason. If I were making a character any lower level than 16th level, I wouldn't even consider aiming for this. To get the most bang for my buck, realistically I need to be an Int lvl 5/Wis lvl 5/Cha lvl 5 character who has dumped Wis and Cha for more Int. The normal problem with theurge builds is that once you get into the late-game, you're so many spell levels behind that even upcasting your best low-level spells just isn't cutting it anymore, and this class actively forces you to make that problem worse for the vast majority of your career in exchange for the promise of it being slightly better at level 20 - whereas normally you'd have to theurge as Wizard 10/Cleric 10 (9th lvl slots, but max of 5th lvl spells in both classes), no you can add bard spells up to level 5 into that mix.

Rules As Written say that you can prepare/know spells of any level you have a spell slot for.

AvatarVecna
2018-03-06, 11:50 PM
Rules As Written say that you can prepare/know spells of any level you have a spell slot for.

Incorrect. (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclassing.htm)


Spells Known And Prepared

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.

...

Spell Slots

If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don’t have any spells of that higher level.

A bard 5/Cleric 5/Wizard 5 has slots as a MC Caster 15 - 8th level at the highest - but only knows/can prepare 3rd level spells from each of the three classes. Slots for level 4 through 8 are solely for upcasting spells.

Crisis21
2018-03-07, 12:21 AM
Incorrect. (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclassing.htm)



A bard 5/Cleric 5/Wizard 5 has slots as a MC Caster 15 - 8th level at the highest - but only knows/can prepare 3rd level spells from each of the three classes. Slots for level 4 through 8 are solely for upcasting spells.

Ah. Whoops. Must have glossed over that part of the PHB when I looked it over. Sorry, my bad.

Argothair
2018-03-07, 12:48 AM
Thanks for the Unearthed Arcana link! That's pretty neat.

I think you're probably straying far enough from the vision of Prestige Classes sketched in UA that you're going to run into trouble. Like, the requirement to become a Rune Master is that you need 13 INT, 13 DEX, proficiency in Arcana, 5 total levels, and you need to find or buy a rare magical object and bring it to an appropriate tutor. This is hard, but you don't have to shape your entire character around it; one could imagine many different types of characters who could meet that requirement. An Arcane Archer, a Rogue Thief, an Illusionist Wizard, or even a Monk who happened to have 12 INT at character creation and felt like burning a feat on Keen Mind could all plausibly wind up as a Rune Master anytime between Level 6 and Level 20. The process of becoming a Rune Master takes, at most, three scenes: one scene where you find the rune, one scene where you go searching for a rune master to tutor you, and one scene where you convince the rune master to tutor you. These scenes can be worked into ordinary campaigning pretty easily; maybe you find the rune while killing a cult of evil warlocks in a dungeon, and maybe you find the rune master while traveling along a road or stopping at an inn on the way to your next encounter.

By contrast, your prereq's include 15 very specific levels, plus scene after scene of academic research, which is very unlikely to fit into a classical adventure arc. You pretty much have to build your character around Mystic Theurge from Level 1 or Level 2, otherwise it's not worth it. As others have pointed out, Mystic Theurge barely pays off until you've got all 5 levels in it...which means that you're really talking about committing all 20 of your 20 levels to this PrC. That's limiting and not usually much fun.

I do think there's some room in 5e for a class that emphasizes breadth and variety of spellcasting over raw power in any particular discipline...but this doesn't look like that class. Your character is going to have a real hard time being competitive all the way through Level 15 -- either you dump all your physical stats and wind up as a target, or you dump some of your casting stats and wind up knowing a bunch of spells that you can't cast efficiently. What is your class offering players that they can't get by playing a Warlock with Mystic Arcanum, or a Bard with Magical Secrets, or, frankly, a Wizard who finds somebody else's Spellbook?

Crisis21
2018-03-07, 01:24 AM
Thanks for the Unearthed Arcana link! That's pretty neat.

I think you're probably straying far enough from the vision of Prestige Classes sketched in UA that you're going to run into trouble. Like, the requirement to become a Rune Master is that you need 13 INT, 13 DEX, proficiency in Arcana, 5 total levels, and you need to find or buy a rare magical object and bring it to an appropriate tutor. This is hard, but you don't have to shape your entire character around it; one could imagine many different types of characters who could meet that requirement. An Arcane Archer, a Rogue Thief, an Illusionist Wizard, or even a Monk who happened to have 12 INT at character creation and felt like burning a feat on Keen Mind could all plausibly wind up as a Rune Master anytime between Level 6 and Level 20. The process of becoming a Rune Master takes, at most, three scenes: one scene where you find the rune, one scene where you go searching for a rune master to tutor you, and one scene where you convince the rune master to tutor you. These scenes can be worked into ordinary campaigning pretty easily; maybe you find the rune while killing a cult of evil warlocks in a dungeon, and maybe you find the rune master while traveling along a road or stopping at an inn on the way to your next encounter.

By contrast, your prereq's include 15 very specific levels, plus scene after scene of academic research, which is very unlikely to fit into a classical adventure arc. You pretty much have to build your character around Mystic Theurge from Level 1 or Level 2, otherwise it's not worth it. As others have pointed out, Mystic Theurge barely pays off until you've got all 5 levels in it...which means that you're really talking about committing all 20 of your 20 levels to this PrC. That's limiting and not usually much fun.

I do think there's some room in 5e for a class that emphasizes breadth and variety of spellcasting over raw power in any particular discipline...but this doesn't look like that class. Your character is going to have a real hard time being competitive all the way through Level 15 -- either you dump all your physical stats and wind up as a target, or you dump some of your casting stats and wind up knowing a bunch of spells that you can't cast efficiently. What is your class offering players that they can't get by playing a Warlock with Mystic Arcanum, or a Bard with Magical Secrets, or, frankly, a Wizard who finds somebody else's Spellbook?

All good points. Any suggestions for redesign? Here's my thoughts at the moment:


Reduce overall character level needed. Makes it easier to achieve and not need a specific build.
Keep Unified Spell Theory, because it's what I built this class for.
Drop multiclass requirements to 2 classes (one still needs to be an Intelligence-base caster of course but the other can be either Wisdom or Charisma-based).
Make one entry requirement the ability to cast a 3rd-level spell.
Rather than allow advancement of class features of you pre-existing spellcasting classes, the Mystic Theurge gains the following:

The maximum level of spells they can prepare/learn is calculated based on Caster Class Level + Mystic Theurge Level, so you can get higher level spells as a Mystic Theurge than normal multiclassing.
You can prepare/learn +1 spell in each Caster Class for every level of Mystic Theurge you have.
You get more cantrips, because casting options.


So, you could in theory overload this by being Wizard 1, Cleric 1, Druid 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer 1, and Mystic Theurge 5, learn up to level 3 spells in all of them at 10th level, and literally have more spells at your disposal than you know what to do with, but you'd pay for it with lack of features from specialization.
Any of these sounding good?

Arkhios
2018-03-07, 01:55 AM
All good points. Any suggestions for redesign? Here's my thoughts at the moment:


Reduce overall character level needed. Makes it easier to achieve and not need a specific build.
Keep Unified Spell Theory, because it's what I built this class for.
Drop multiclass requirements to 2 classes (one still needs to be an Intelligence-base caster of course but the other can be either Wisdom or Charisma-based).
Make one entry requirement the ability to cast a 3rd-level spell.

In order to make Mystic Theurge enticing to more characters and to keep it in-line with the Rune Scribe (currently the only semi-official prestige class; however scrapped the concept of prestige classes may be), I would make the entry requirements as follows:


Must have Spellcasting feature from at least two separate classes.
At least 13 in ability scores relevant to the requisite classes.
Capable of casting 2nd-level spells with at least one class.1

1:This is because Rune Scribe requires a character with at least 5 levels. Obviously, if you multiclass as a full-caster, you won't be able to cast 3rd level spells with one class at 5th level, which would in turn make the Mystic Theurge less tempting than Rune Scribe. However, if you were a full-caster who multiclassed after 3rd level into another class that could cast spells with either Spellcasting or Pact Magic, you would be able to meet the prestige class requirements within 5 or 6 levels, which is much more fair, to be honest.

As per Rune Scribe, there should be a maximum of 5 levels in a Prestige Class.
As the Mystic Theurge entry feature (Unified Spell Theory), you would be able to substitute one of your spellcasting modifiers (either a) your choice or b) whichever is higher) for the other class or classes from now on. I agree that it makes absolutely no sense that for some reason you would suddenly use Intelligence to cast your spells regardless of their origin. In my opinion, that you could use any ability score you have used so far, would be more sensible.

One particular thing I liked about Mystic Theurge in 3.5/PF (honestly, I can't remember which one was it) that you could effectively cast two spells at once. I think you could make a cap-stone feature that lets you do this.

Maybe like this: When you cast a spell as an Action, you can use a Bonus Action to cast another spell simultaneously while using only one spell slot.
The spells being cast would have the following limitations and requirements:
Casting time: The spells being cast must have a casting time of 1 Action or 1 Bonus Action.
Concentration: If either spell requires concentration, both spells must require concentration. Whichever spell has the shortest duration, both spells will have that duration instead of their own durations. Both spells share your concentration simultaneously, and whenever your concentration would be broken, both spells end at the same time. Likewise, if one of the spells would end before the duration is up, such as due to a trigger, both spells end at the same time.
Spell range: Whichever spell has the shortest range applies to both spells.
Spell area: Whichever spell has the smallest area of effect applies to both spells.
Spell attacks: If either spell requires a spell attack, both spells' effects are transferred through one hit.
Saving Throws: If either spell requires a saving throw, to avoid the effect or halve damage, the target is allowed to make that save as normal for each spell separately.



Rather than allow advancement of class features of you pre-existing spellcasting classes, the Mystic Theurge gains the following:

The maximum level of spells they can prepare/learn is calculated based on Caster Class Level + Mystic Theurge Level, so you can get higher level spells as a Mystic Theurge than normal multiclassing.
You can prepare/learn +1 spell in each Caster Class for every level of Mystic Theurge you have.
You get more cantrips, because casting options.


So, you could in theory overload this by being Wizard 1, Cleric 1, Druid 1, Bard 1, Sorcerer 1, and Mystic Theurge 5, learn up to level 3 spells in all of them at 10th level, and literally have more spells at your disposal than you know what to do with, but you'd pay for it with lack of features from specialization.
Any of these sounding good?

Oh, god, no. Don't do that. Class features mean less than the amount of spells prepared/known.
However, a prestige class should indeed provide its own class features and not advance the class features of classes that the character had previously. Spell slots progression is fine, however, because taking levels in a prestige class is exactly as multiclassing with another class, and the rules already cover how spellcasting advance via multiclassing. It's generally better to use the tools that are already there, than to create something entirely new instead while still aiming for same end results.
I would, honestly, advice against tinkering with the system how the character would prepare/learn spells. It's just 1 to 5 levels. With more than one class to choose spells from, with separate pools of prepared/known spells, the character would already have more than enough spells at their disposal.
I think you shouldn't allow any more cantrips, to be honest, because the character would already gain a ridiculous amount of cantrips via multiclassing. And if you use what I suggested for the spellcasting modifier substitution, there's even less reason to choose more cantrips, when one ability score can make all of them relevant again.

Argothair
2018-03-07, 02:11 AM
Reduce overall character level needed. Makes it easier to achieve and not need a specific build.

I'm in favor.


Keep Unified Spell Theory, because it's what I built this class for.

I'm in favor.


Drop multiclass requirements to 2 classes (one still needs to be an Intelligence-base caster of course but the other can be either Wisdom or Charisma-based).

I dunno; I kind of like the idea of needing to be able to cast at least one spell using each of INT, WIS, and CHR as your casting stat. You could pick up one of them using a feat like Arcane Initiate or Primal Initiate, or even a racial feature like the High Elves, but I still think if you're going to learn how to effortlessly fuse all three streams of magic, you should start off knowing how to do any casting at all in each of three magical sources.


Make one entry requirement the ability to cast a 3rd-level spell.

3rd-level spell slot or knowledge of a 3rd-level spell? Either is fine, but be clear.


The maximum level of spells they can prepare/learn is calculated based on Caster Class Level + Mystic Theurge Level, so you can get higher level spells as a Mystic Theurge than normal multiclassing.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. I thought all multiclassing works this way. Are you saying you want to award two full levels' worth of spellcasting slots for every level of Mystic Theurge? That sounds overpowered.


You can prepare/learn +1 spell in each Caster Class for every level of Mystic Theurge you have.

Seems fine.


You get more cantrips, because casting options.

Seems fine.


.

Is there anything else you want the class to do? I mean, it's fine if your big goal is just to get more spell options and allow for the use of INT to power non-INT spells, but it kind of feels like it's missing something. If not a capstone, then at least something cool that the Theurge can do that other people can't?

Crisis21
2018-03-07, 09:29 AM
I dunno; I kind of like the idea of needing to be able to cast at least one spell using each of INT, WIS, and CHR as your casting stat. You could pick up one of them using a feat like Arcane Initiate or Primal Initiate, or even a racial feature like the High Elves, but I still think if you're going to learn how to effortlessly fuse all three streams of magic, you should start off knowing how to do any casting at all in each of three magical sources.
I agree. Thanks.



3rd-level spell slot or knowledge of a 3rd-level spell? Either is fine, but be clear.

Er... I haven't decided yet?



I'm sorry, but I don't understand. I thought all multiclassing works this way. Are you saying you want to award two full levels' worth of spellcasting slots for every level of Mystic Theurge? That sounds overpowered.

Okay, so to try and clarify what I want to do here I am going to quote the PHB first.

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.

Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.

So, assuming the example character decided to multiclass to Mystic Theurge, they would be able to add their MT level to both their Ranger and their Wizard levels for purposes of determining what level of spells they can know/prepare in addition to being able to know +1 spell per MT level in both.

For the Ranger they would know 3 1st-level Ranger spells plus 4 that could be 1st or 2nd-level, and another 1 that could be up to 3rd-level. For Wizard, they could prepare eleven Wizard spells (assuming INT 16 still) and their spellbook could contain spells up to 4th-level. They would have available spell slots as a 10th-level full caster ((4 Ranger)/2 + 3 Wizard + 5 MT).

After re-reading that passage, I may also buff Unified Spell Theory so that the character can use a single Arcane Focus regardless of what kind of spell they are trying to cast.




Is there anything else you want the class to do? I mean, it's fine if your big goal is just to get more spell options and allow for the use of INT to power non-INT spells, but it kind of feels like it's missing something. If not a capstone, then at least something cool that the Theurge can do that other people can't?
The big thing I want for them is essentially to simplify the casting of multi-classing spells by collapsing things like spellcasting modifier and arcane focuses into a single package. (INT-based casting all the time plus one focus needed for all kinds of spells)

The second thing for them is to get more spell options they can cast at any given moment.

Beyond that... I don't know. Would an extra 1st-level spell slot or two be overpowered? Would recharging 1st-level spells after a short rest? Maybe at their 5th MT level, they can get something like the Bard's Magical Secrets and learn a number of spells from any class's spell list? When they prepare spells, they aren't limited to their spellbook or a class list? I don't know at this point.

Argothair
2018-03-07, 02:22 PM
For the Ranger they would know 3 1st-level Ranger spells plus 4 that could be 1st or 2nd-level, and another 1 that could be up to 3rd-level. For Wizard, they could prepare eleven Wizard spells (assuming INT 16 still) and their spellbook could contain spells up to 4th-level. They would have available spell slots as a 10th-level full caster ((4 Ranger)/2 + 3 Wizard + 5 MT).

OK, I think I understand that. It sounds like you're saying levels in Mystic Theurge give you twice (or three times) as many spells known, but only a normal amount of spellcasting slots. That sounds fine.


After re-reading that passage, I may also buff Unified Spell Theory so that the character can use a single Arcane Focus regardless of what kind of spell they are trying to cast.

Yeah, I would definitely do that; it seems essential to the feel of the class.


Beyond that... I don't know. Would an extra 1st-level spell slot or two be overpowered? Would recharging 1st-level spells after a short rest? Maybe at their 5th MT level, they can get something like the Bard's Magical Secrets and learn a number of spells from any class's spell list? When they prepare spells, they aren't limited to their spellbook or a class list? I don't know at this point...

I'm not in love with any of these ideas. Extra 1st-level spell slots aren't overpowered, but they aren't particularly exciting, either. Does it really matter if your seventh spell of the day is 1st-level or an enhanced cantrip? As far as learning spells from other disciplines, well, I think this class already has more than enough of that, just based on its pre-reqs. Arkhios's ideas about casting two spells at once are interesting, but they sound mechanically complicated and vulnerable to abuse.

What about reducing your dependence on having an Arcane Focus and/or Spellbook? I'm imagining a progression something like this:

Level 1: Unified Spell Theory, Omni-magical Focus. You can use your INT modifier to cast all types of spells, and you can use the same Arcane Focus to cast all types of spells.
Level 2: Ethereal Spellbook. As a 1-hour ritual, you can create a backup copy of your Spellbook that is safely stored in the aether. You can summon the backup copy to your current location via another 1-hour ritual. This allows you to more reliably and completely restore your spells if your Spellbook is stolen or destroyed.
Level 3: Intuitive Channeling. While you are openly displaying your Arcane Focus, you have advantage on checks to maintain your Concentration on a spell.
Level 4: Arcane Mastery. You gain expertise in Arcana and proficiency in Religion and Nature.
Level 5: Autochthonous Channeling. You may use your own body as your Arcane Focus whenever your are not polymorphed, wild-shaped, or shape-shifted. If you do so, your body glows with a faint magical light. This allows you to cast spells while both of your hands are full.

Crisis21
2018-03-07, 04:02 PM
OK, I think I understand that. It sounds like you're saying levels in Mystic Theurge give you twice (or three times) as many spells known, but only a normal amount of spellcasting slots. That sounds fine.



Yeah, I would definitely do that; it seems essential to the feel of the class.



I'm not in love with any of these ideas. Extra 1st-level spell slots aren't overpowered, but they aren't particularly exciting, either. Does it really matter if your seventh spell of the day is 1st-level or an enhanced cantrip? As far as learning spells from other disciplines, well, I think this class already has more than enough of that, just based on its pre-reqs. Arkhios's ideas about casting two spells at once are interesting, but they sound mechanically complicated and vulnerable to abuse.

What about reducing your dependence on having an Arcane Focus and/or Spellbook? I'm imagining a progression something like this:

Level 1: Unified Spell Theory, Omni-magical Focus. You can use your INT modifier to cast all types of spells, and you can use the same Arcane Focus to cast all types of spells.
Level 2: Ethereal Spellbook. As a 1-hour ritual, you can create a backup copy of your Spellbook that is safely stored in the aether. You can summon the backup copy to your current location via another 1-hour ritual. This allows you to more reliably and completely restore your spells if your Spellbook is stolen or destroyed.
Level 3: Intuitive Channeling. While you are openly displaying your Arcane Focus, you have advantage on checks to maintain your Concentration on a spell.
Level 4: Arcane Mastery. You gain expertise in Arcana and proficiency in Religion and Nature.
Level 5: Autochthonous Channeling. You may use your own body as your Arcane Focus whenever your are not polymorphed, wild-shaped, or shape-shifted. If you do so, your body glows with a faint magical light. This allows you to cast spells while both of your hands are full.


Hmm... good stuff. I can certainly work with that...


How does this look?


Prestige Class: Mystic Theurge

Mystic Theurges are those who dedicate themselves to studying all forms of magic, from those that arise from rigorous study (Wizard), those that come from dedicated living (Cleric, Druid), and those that form from cultivated talent (Sorcerer, Bard). The requirements to even begin the journey as a Mystic Theurge are stringent and unforgiving.

Requirements:

Knowledge of at least one 3rd-level spell: Any petitioner who does not know at least one 3rd-level spell (regardless of available spell slots) will not be considered experienced enough in magical matters to learn how to be a Mystic Theurge.

Cross-class study: To petition to become a Mystic Theurge, you must be able to cast at least one spell using your Intelligence modifier, one using your Wisdom modifier, and one using your Charisma modifier.

Intelligence 17 or greater: Training as a Mystic Theurge requires a great deal of intellect to even attempt. Those who do not display at least this much intelligence, understanding, and education will be turned away.

Magical Research Paper: Aspirants to become a Mystic Theurge must complete a well-composed and researched paper on their cross-class magical studies to be presented to an institution of higher magical learning for review. The minimum time necessary to complete such a paper is either one month or one level, whichever is longer in-game. There is no guarantee that they will accept your paper and agree to train you as a Mystic Theurge, requiring you to spend at least one week revising your research paper before resubmitting it to the same or different institution.

Proficiency in the Arcana Skill: Those who cannot show at least basic understanding of Arcane knowledge, as an institution of magical learning judges such matters, are likely to be summarily dismissed. Depending on the institution being petitioned, proficiency in Religion, Nature, and/or History may also be required.

No levels in Warlock: The Warlock class carries with it a certain stigma among magical scholars. While many consider Warlocks a viable subject of magical study, almost all magical scholars view cutting a deal with another being for magical power in much the same way as non-magical scholars view a student sleeping with the Dean/Teachers in exchange for higher grades. As such, any aspirant found to have Warlock powers can expect to have their application summarily dismissed.

Class Stats:

Hit Dice: 1d6 per Mystic Theurge level level
Hit points 1d6 (4) + Constitution modifier per Mystic Theurge level

Proficiencies: Choose two of Arcana, Religion, Nature, or History. If you already have proficiency in the chosen skill, add double your proficiency bonus to checks made with that skill. None

The Mystic Theurge class is considered a full caster class for purposes of multi-class spellcasting progression as detailed in the PHB.

Leveling Guide:

Level 1: Unified Spell Theory, Bonus Cantrips, Mystic Knowledge
Level 2: Ethereal Spellbook
Level 3: Improved Channelling
Level 4: Arcane Mastery
Level 5: Self Focus

Unified Spell Theory:
When you gain your first level in Mystic Theurge, you learn how to unify the principles behind your diverse spellcasting talents. This confers upon you the following abilities:

When casting any spell, you may use Intelligence as your spellcasting modifier.
Select one of your Arcane focuses. You may always use that Arcane focus for spellcasting regardless of what kind of spell you cast.


Bonus Cantrips:
When you gain your first level in Mystic Theurge, you learn up to three additional cantrips from the spell lists of your existing spellcasting classes.

Mystic Knowledge:
For each level you have in Mystic Theurge, you gain an additional spell known or prepared (as appropriate) for each of your other spellcasting classes.
Note: This does not in any way grant you additional spell slots beyond what you should possess according to the multiclassing rules for spellcasters.

Ethereal Spellbook:
When you gain your second level in Mystic Theurge, you learn a special ritual to create a backup copy of your spellbook (if you have one). This ritual takes one hour to perform and creates a copy of the spellbook in question inside an astral demiplane. The demiplane is tied to you and can only contain one spellbook at any given time, and performing the ritual again destroys any copy already in the demiplane. By performing the ritual in a different manner, you can summon the book from the demiplane as a physical spellbook.
When you gain your fifth level in Mystic Theurge, you gain the ability to review the spellbook stored in your astral demiplane without removing it and may prepare spells from it using simple meditation. You can also use the one hour ritual to add a spell to your spellbook without removing it.

Improved Channelling:
At your 3rd level in Mystic Theurge, your ability to channel magical energy improves. So long as you openly display your arcane focus, you have advantage on concentration checks.

Arcane Mastery:
At your 4th level in Mystic Theurge, your mastery of arcane knowledge is all but unmatched. You gain expertise in the Arcana Skill, doubling your proficiency in check made using that Skill, if you did not already have it. You also gain proficiency in the Religion and Nature Skills. If you already had proficiency in one or both of those Skills, you may add double your proficiency bonus to checks made with that/those Skill(s).

Self Focus:
When you gain your fifth level in Mystic Theurge, you gain the ability to use your own body as an Arcane Focus. You no longer need to hold or even possess an Arcane Focus for any form of spellcasting. When using yourself as an Arcane Focus, you glow with a soft visible light.

Triple Minor:
Each level in Mystic Theurge counts as an additional level in your other caster classes for purposes of preparing spells, spells known, and gaining class and archetype features. Note: This does not grant extra hit points, Ability Score Increases, or spell slots beyond what you would normally have as a full caster of your character level.
You gain each class's sixth level features at your first level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's seventh level features at your second level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's eighth level features at your third level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's ninth level features at your fourth level of Mystic Theurge.
You gain each class's tenth level features at your fifth level of Mystic Theurge.

Enlightenment:
At your 5th level of Mystic Theurge, your Intelligence and Wisdom increase by 4. Your maximum Intelligence and Wisdom also increase by 4.

Argothair
2018-03-07, 04:19 PM
Looks good to me! I say it's ready for launch. Thanks for working together with me on this; it was fun. :-D