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The Professor
2007-08-29, 01:30 PM
I can't seem to find it in any of the books, but as we all know, Mystra has a ban on all spells of 10th level and higher, but there's Epic Magic.

I was curious if you could pull off 10th level spells and higher if you're a Shadow Weave user? Or does Shar have a similar ban and/or is unable to put out that kinda power?

Quietus
2007-08-29, 01:42 PM
I can't seem to find it in any of the books, but as we all know, Mystra has a ban on all spells of 10th level and higher, but there's Epic Magic.

I was curious if you could pull off 10th level spells and higher if you're a Shadow Weave user? Or does Shar have a similar ban and/or is unable to put out that kinda power?

I don't remember reading anything like that, personally. However, I'm not 100% familiar with FR. That being said, I do know that the Shadow Weave seems to be separate in almost every way from the regular Weave, so I'd imagine that there'd be no such ban - which would be a huge draw for high level casters to switch over to casting through the Shadow Weave.

The Professor
2007-08-29, 02:08 PM
Lost Empires of Faerun goes over the ban a bit. Wow, if Shadow Weave users can pull that off, I don't see why more folks don't just convert over for the awesome power. Netheril all over again! :smallbiggrin:

bosssmiley
2007-08-29, 02:43 PM
Lost Empires of Faerun goes over the ban a bit. Wow, if Shadow Weave users can pull that off, I don't see why more folks don't just convert over for the awesome power. Netheril all over again! :smallbiggrin:

The answer's in the question I think. :smallconfused:


Netheril all over again! :smallbiggrin:

Yep, that'd be it, right there. Do you really think that Mystra, the Chosen, in fact any of the Weave-users of Faerun, want even the possibility of "Netheril all over again". I mean, look at how well it worked out first time around. :smallamused:

Plus there's the fact that the Shadow Weave ain't exactly common knowledge in Faerun. I mean, what's the point of a secret source of power that gives you an unfair edge if you're just going to tell everyone about it? Hardly the best way to keep the advantage. :smallwink:

tannish2
2007-08-29, 05:13 PM
and really... whats the fun in losing 2 wis points permenantly?

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 05:22 PM
Given what karsus did to mystra — I don't think shar would allow that possibility either. :smalleek:

Amiria
2007-08-29, 05:23 PM
and really... whats the fun in losing 2 wis points permenantly?

Well, low wisdom can lead to many funny situations. :smallbiggrin:

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-08-29, 05:32 PM
On the other hand, Shar is sneaky enough that she'd let some fellow think he's pulling a potential Karsus Manuever, and at the last moment, prove she's fooled him all along and leave him twisting in the wind feeling like a complete dope.

The Shadow Weave works more on subtlety as well as I recall. So some of the flashier spells really don't show up in the Shadow Weave.

SilverClawShift
2007-08-29, 05:51 PM
What would a hypothetical 10th level spell look like, in any event?

It's not just an epic spell (technically it's still be a level below epic spellcasting, right? A logical conclusion would be that 10th level spells were what a wizard learned at 19th level (assuming they're a shadow weave user, that the shadow weave supports 10th level spells, and that 10th level spells actually exist).

Soooo..

What would they be? :smallbiggrin:

I think it would be likely that these hypothetical spells would be Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy only, as those are the spells that the shadow weave focuses in. Ninth level spells in those schools are
Enchantment: Dominate Monster, Hold Monster, Mass, Power Word Kill
Illusion: Shades, Weird
Necromancy: Astral Projection, Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Wail of the Banshee

An obvious one is a 10th level "Shades" spell, which can emulate 9th level evocation spells, and is, say, 90% real. But where else can you theoretically go here? What does a 10th level spell that isn't an epic spell look like?

Douglas
2007-08-29, 08:57 PM
Back when spells above 9th level existed, the power curve was extremely steep. Karsus' Avatar, the spell that killed Mystryl and made its caster the new god of magic, was merely level 12. A 10th level spell was capable of duplicating the effects of several 9th level spells at once, I think.

NullAshton
2007-08-29, 09:14 PM
Epic level spellcasting counts as a 10th level spell for most if not all effects.

SilverClawShift
2007-08-29, 10:41 PM
Epic level spellcasting counts as a 10th level spell for most if not all effects.

For all practical intents and purposes yes, but not literally by the fluff. Lost Empires of Faerun says that, back in the days of Netheril, the elves tended to use epic magic as we get to play with, while the netherese tended to use 10th level (and higher) spells and slots.

It makes me want to talk to my DM about, maybe houseruling some 10th level spellcaster action for us in a game or two... I was just curious to see what directions others might take the '10th level spell' concept as a set power of arcane magic.

The Professor
2007-08-29, 10:55 PM
Yeah, I'd do that for my players. I'm sure there was a book containing some 10th level + spells, but I can't seem to find any... I know one of the Warcraft D20 books has "Paramount Spells" that are just a fancy name for 10th and up spells.

However, the biggest problem I see with that is just that they increase exponentially. Think about the power difference between an 8th level spell and a 9th level spell. Think about how powerful that 10th level spell is going to be in comparison to our favorites like Wish, Gate and Shapechange. Heck, a 12th level spell makes you a deity and kills the one you take the place of.

I'd love it, but I don't know if casters need more love? :smallconfused:

SilverClawShift
2007-08-29, 11:07 PM
Balance isn't a terrible concern for us. Our DM is very good at adjusting balance on the fly and keeping us close to the same steps... or at least making us all feel like we still have a use.

We've had games where we all played as bards (for cryin out loud), and we've had games where we all played as pure casters.

If we went into a game knowing that we'd get 10th level spells at 19th level, then there ya go, it'd just be the nature of that game :smallbiggrin:

leperkhaun
2007-08-30, 04:25 AM
as far as i know, the shadow weave may be capable of allowing 10th and higher level spells, but i think the main problem is a lack of arch shadowmagi.

Not only that but a spell greater than 9th in FR gets really really really powerful, and i dont think Shar has the base power for her mages to start flinging that sort of magic around. Meaning If her mages started throwing that kind of power around someone is going to notice and people other than the one shar has picked are going to know about it. I dont think Shar wants to let mystra know about her weave until she has a chance to mature it and find some casters who have a half way reasonable chance of surviving a confrintation with elminster and the sisters.