DMM:Persist v.s. Uberchargers? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Venger

2018-03-07, 05:31 PM

I was having a discussion with Segev in this thread:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552773-Where-s-the-line-between-high-optimization-and-TO

About which spells make DMM:Persist more powerful than Uberchargers, and he advised me to create a thread and ask the good people of this forum to answer the question as he cannot at this time.

So... which spells when persisted make the DMM Cleric more powerful than Uberchargers?

1. Reach Spell and Ocular Spell do not let a spell qualify for Persistent Spell, as touch spells (even ranged ones) cannot qualify for Persistent spell. The FAQ says this is true as well. Now I know people hate the FAQ, but for this exercise lets say we're going with the FAQ's ruling on the definition of a fixed range spell.

2. Spell levels 1-7 only. 8th and 9th level spells break the game by themselves, so persisting a game breaking spell to the point it's even more game breaking doesn't really matter (like shapechange).
3. This is a DMM:Persist discussion, not Illumian's Naenhoon Persist discussion.

I mean, all the threads I look up say "Persist Divine Power", but a persisted divine power cleric does significantly less damage than Uberchargers. Segev said that damage is beside the point for DMM:Persist so... which spells exactly make DMM:Persist more powerful than one shotting everything?

please don't ever cite the FAQ in a RAW discussion. FAQ ≠ RAW.

but let's ignore touch and rays for this anyway:

one of the most popular ones to persist is consumptive field. this will max out your caster level which helps make you better at everything else you do.

while persist is good, the reason persistomancers are better than uberchargers is because casters are better than mundanes. That'll be true regardless of other factors at play. even if the cleric can't do more hit point damage in a turn (which he probably can anyway) the many other effects give him the upper hand.

emeraldstreak

2018-03-07, 05:43 PM

I'm guessing because of feats. DMM:Persist is very demanding. Sure you can use domains to reduce the requirement to 2 feats, but that's still 2 feats weaker than a full ubercharger, meaning it will come online much later too.

Ubercharging is....

Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shocktrooper and Leap Attack, and you need to be a barbarian for pounce as well. Even as a human with Planning domain that's 6 feats, so it comes online at level 12. So having both isn't really a realistic option.

A lot of your assertions are questionable:

- you advertise the thread as DMM v uberchargers, so presumably full lvl 20 builds, but now you move goal posts to who does more damage at level 12. Why not 11 or 13?

- you said there are no questions about uberchargers RAW, but there are plenty. Leap Attack. Size stacking.

- spirit lion totem is hardly the only way to get pounce

- the ubercharger build you've outlined is unlikely to be the most damaging at level 12...or ever. Why compare DMM to an inferior ubercharger?

Segev

2018-03-07, 05:45 PM

one of the most popular ones to persist is consumptive field. this will max out your caster level which helps make you better at everything else you do.

And since we're using DMM:Persist, we can also consider greater consumptive field, which means anything that falls below 10 hp dies and feeds you.

Persisting Vigor or Lesser Vigor is also not bad, though not truly game-breaking by themselves.

True seeing, up all day long, gets a lot more annoying for most DMs than a guy who can kill one thing per round.

And while you're probably right that an ubercharger does more damage than a cleric under a persistant righteous might and divine power, the cleric is also still a full caster who is hitting at full fighter-like levels for less investment than the ubercharger. He can cast spells on himself that the ubercharger cannot, even if he doesn't persist them, and he need prepare fewer of his buffs because of the ones he can just have all day.

Venger

2018-03-07, 05:46 PM

How do you feed bodies for Consumptive Field? But wow! that spell is powerful!

Ok that qualifies.

That's like saying wizards are better than Uberchargers (which they are! By Miles! Or Planes! Or Extradimensions!), but the reason a person would go a Persistomancer is to be a gish right? And gishes are all about damage right and not BFC? If they're trying to do both then that just means that they are going to be subpar at both compared to their respective specialist, which makes them different rather than flat out better.

Except Consumptive Field's untyped uncapped bonus to strength would make them stronger than uberchargers XD

bag of rats (or chicken-infested if it's a TO discussion) or similar effect

gishes are about bfc/spells stuff and also a little damage. gishes are not all about damage. if someone wanted to be all about damage they would be an ubercharger or a mailman.

gishes aren't subpar at both (or good ones aren't anyway) a competently built gish will be able to do an ok job of both melee and spells, such as a normal swiftblade. he may not have 9th level spells, but he's still got a good amount of spells and can also do some brutish things if he feels like it.

gishes are different than brutes or casters, and they're a great way to keep challenging yourself with the system or willingly handicap yourself to play with a lower op group

yes, consumptive field does give you NI strength, another reason persisting it is pretty crazy.

Karl Aegis

2018-03-07, 05:51 PM

Huh, I thought Persistent Spell would more useful for something like Mass Lesser Vigor to heal over 10,000 hit points with a single spell. Sure, most of that is overhealing, but it's still impressive. More impressive than.... a few points of attack bonus and a handful of hit points.

flappeercraft

2018-03-07, 05:53 PM

emeraldstreak

2018-03-07, 06:09 PM

It may seem arbitrary but I'm drawing the line at level 14.

I wouldn't call it arbitrary, you are free to set the conditions, however what you get will be true for level 14, not higher, not lower.

As you can tell I am quite new at this stuff. What is the problem with Leap Attack and this "Size Stacking"?

The only Ubercharger build I could find was the spirited totem Barbarian on a mount with a lance with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, and spirited charge with all of its prerequisites.

Here's giantitp's build compilation answer about uberchargers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16939387&postcount=25). Mind you, that's not even close to highest ever numbers, but it's a good enough example how complex they begin to get.

Here's the latest Leap Attack RAW discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550793-Power-Attack-Leap-Attack-Question). These are recurring.

Here's my take on the RAW of Size Stacking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22812269&postcount=37). These are, again, recurring discussions.

Segev

2018-03-07, 06:12 PM

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Elation, Vigorous Circle, Divine Power and Empyreal Ecstacy would be my choices for this.

Edit: Forgot to add Consumptive Field, I know it has been mentioned and so has Divine Power but these would be what I would go for to cover the basics.

Mind elaborating on what RWotF, Recitation, Elation, Vigorous Circle, and Empyreal Ecstasy do? Full text isn't required, just a rough idea.

Venger

2018-03-07, 06:13 PM

Full 20 builds, Naked Featless Cleric >>> Uberchargers, so it can't be that, at least in my opinion. It may seem arbitrary but I'm drawing the line at level 14. The discussion is to determine which is more game breaking rather than pure power. I mean if the Persistent Spell Cleric can reach damage levels to one shot everything and can cast spells, it'll be more game breaking than uberchargers, whose excess damage is just overkill and doesn't do anything.

Do you think dealing hit point damage is breaking the game?

But yeah, like you said, since a cleric can deal damage and do spells, he'll always be stronger.

As you can tell I am quite new at this stuff. What is the problem with Leap Attack and this "Size Stacking"?

The only Ubercharger build I could find was the spirited totem Barbarian on a mount with a lance with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, and spirited charge with all of its prerequisites.

there is no problem with leap attack.

some people misread the feat and think "100% normal" means your naked unmodified power attack damage without taking frenzied berserker or two handing into account, forgetting that you always apply effects in the most beneficial order.

some size increasing effects spell out that they don't work with one another. others don't. not sure what ambiguity is present here, but there may be some poorly written size changing effects.

Huh, I thought Persistent Spell would more useful for something like Mass Lesser Vigor to heal over 10,000 hit points with a single spell. Sure, most of that is overhealing, but it's still impressive. More impressive than.... a few points of attack bonus and a handful of hit points.

mass lesser vigor is also a popular use for persisting.

emeraldstreak

2018-03-07, 06:22 PM

Do you think dealing hit point damage is breaking the game?

I personally think neither hit point damage, nor hit point damage immunity derived from Troll-Blooded, Starmantle or wherever breaks the game. But don't let this stop us from a discussion about DMM/ubercharger damage at lvl 14.

there is no problem with ...

Yes, there is. If people regularly make discussions about it, argue about it, don't be so sure your take is the right one, the only one, and even if it is that other people will agree.

Also, if people regularly make page-long discussions about it, bringing it here will only dilute and derail this thread. Be respectful and bring it up in dedicated threads like the ones I linked.

flare'90

2018-03-07, 06:25 PM

Mind elaborating on what RWotF, Recitation, Elation, Vigorous Circle, and Empyreal Ecstasy do? Full text isn't required, just a rough idea.

RWotF gives allies within 30ft of yourself an extra attack and +3 hit/damage (morale bonus though). Cleric 5, Purification 7.

Recitation gives all allies in a 60ft burst +2 AC/Attack rolls/Saves, +3 if they worship your deity. Cleric 4, Purification 3.

Elation is +2 morale Strenght/Dex morale bonus and a +5 feet movement bonus to allies in a 80ft spread centered on you. Bard/Cleric/Joy/Emissary of Barachiel 2, Sorc/Wiz 3.

Vigorous Circle is fast healing 3 to one crature/2 levels. Range 20 feet. Cleric 6, druid 6. Mass lesser vigor is similar, only fast healing 1 but cleric/druid 3.

Elation is from Exalted Deeds, the other from Spell cCompendium.

Venger

2018-03-07, 06:31 PM

I personally think neither hit point damage, nor hit point damage immunity derived from Troll-Blooded, Starmantle or wherever breaks the game. But don't let this stop us from a discussion about DMM/ubercharger damage at lvl 14.
I don't either, but I wasn't asking you, I was asking someonenoone11 so we could know where the goalposts for the discussion lie

Yes, there is. If people regularly make discussions about it, argue about it, don't be so sure your take is the right one, the only one, and even if it is that other people will agree.
People who don't know the rule about applying effects in the most beneficial order occasionally mention it, but once that rule is cited, no further discussion is necessary.

Also, if people regularly make page-long discussions about it, bringing it here will only dilute and derail this thread. Be respectful and bring it up in dedicated threads like the ones I linked.

I didn't bring it up, someonenoone11 did. when I wrote my post, yours wasn't up yet, but yeah, if you want to argue about leap attack, do it there.

flappeercraft

2018-03-07, 06:38 PM

Mind elaborating on what RWotF, Recitation, Elation, Vigorous Circle, and Empyreal Ecstasy do? Full text isn't required, just a rough idea.
RWotF gives an extra attack for Full attack and +3 Morale to melee attack/damage rolls (AoE buff). Elation is a +2 Dex +2 Str and +5 movement, all morale (AoE buff). Recitation gives +2 Luck to Attack rolls, Saving Throws and AC, +3 if follow the same deity as caster (AoE buff). Vigorous Circle is Mass lesser Vigor but Fast healing 3 instead (AoE buff) and Empyreal Ecstacy makes you immune to mind affecting, but not those that were taking place prior to it's casting, -4 to skill checks, must make concentration check DC 15 to cast and half damage from ranged and melee attacks (AoE buff).

So essentially not only you but the whole party gets +5 to melee attack rolls (+6 for members who follow the clerics deity), +3 on melee damage rolls, an extra attack, +2 Dex, +2 Strength, +5 movement speed, +2/+3 to ranged attack rolls, +2/+3 on saving throws, +2/+3 to AC, Fast Healing 3, immunity to mind affecting and half damage from ranged and melee attacks.

Venger

2018-03-07, 06:57 PM

Where is bag of rats from? Having trouble locating it. I also hear it's awesome for a great cleave whirlwind build.
Bag of rats isn't a specific magical item (there is a similar one called bag of tricks which summons animals but it's limited) I just mean a mundane burlap sack full of a bunch of rats for you to kill

The goal of this thread was to see just how the DMM clerics rank in terms of "Brokeness" and "OPness" relative to uberchargers. So if a table puts uberchargers as the optimization limit of the group, would they accept or reject DMM clerics? I'll put this in the first post.
If a table's limit is "hit things with a stick really hard," then persistomancer is probably too strong for the gm to come up with meaningful challenges for because clerics are stronger than normal brute classes by virtue of their spells. even if it's just hp damage, as mentioned earlier, consumptive aura gives you NI strength, so you can hit and kill anything susceptible to hit point damage too in addition to cleric spells.

Some people say yes. Unfortunately. Not me though, our group currently has an ubercharger. Not an optimized one, just a normal fighter one without pounce.

But I have dealt with my fair share of people who cry uberchargers are gamebreaking. Needless to say, I didn't join their games :P
I feel bad for those people. If he doesn't have pounce, then he's not an ubercharger (or even a charger) what out of idle curiousity is his build?

good call. life's too short.

Venger

2018-03-07, 07:12 PM

That actually makes things a bit more harder because you need to fill the bag of rats somehow every single time, and you can't use summoned creatures because the spell requires 0hp creatures, and summoned creatures disappear at 0 hp.

Unless there is a spell that instantaneously creates a swarm of rats.
I mean depending on your table you might catch some or go to the ratcatcher if you're doing default early medieval setting and give him a bowl or soup or a few coppers.

there are several spells that do that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonSwarm.htm)

but you don't have to use rats, anything works (spiders, roaches, flies, etc) "bag of rats" just has more inherently funny morphemes in it

Yeah so if the GM or DM does accept fully blown pounce uberchargers, would he accept DMM clerics?

Again I'm trying to gauge the relative "OPness" and "Brokeness" of the strategy rather than trying to get him into a game. Like Incantatrix Wizard is sky high, so is Planar Shepherd Druid even without the infinite wishes or the 10:1 time plane thing and Dweomerkeepers. Ubercharger is low compared to them, so where is DMM cleric here?

Like I said, no, not necessarily, because a cleric is several tiers lower than a brute.

DMM cleric isn't by default as powerful as a iotsv or ruathar or anything, he's just a very strong codzilla.

Not exactly sure but she's a first time gamer, and she's a pure 20 fighter with power attack, greater cleave, shock trooper, and leap attack so far. We're not high level yet.
That's horrifying. Well, if you guys are having fun, that's all that really matters. I hope your campaign goes well.

Venger

2018-03-07, 07:23 PM

Karl Aegis

2018-03-07, 07:24 PM

What, exactly, is an ubercharger in this context?

jindra34

2018-03-07, 09:05 PM

Any character capable of one shotting every creature they can possibly encounter in their entire campaign with a single charge.

I think even without pounce this is achievable, or at least almost achievable.

Its very achievable without pounce (i've seen single hit numbers of around +500 damage). The big thing is its always KILL THIS ONE THING, get shanked HARD by its friends.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2018-03-07, 10:06 PM

They're different kinds of powerful.

The ubercharger may be able to kill an enemy in a single hit, but what about encounters with multiple opponents? What about difficult terrain and other conditions that prevent charging? What if he wastes a round or two on weak enemies, illusions, miss chance, etc.? There are plenty of circumstances when the ubercharger isn't very useful, but the cleric is always able to contribute.

The Ubercharger is a glass cannon. A Cleric, especially with DMM: Persist, is one of the most resilient characters in the game. The best defense is often a good offense, but what happens when the ubercharger misses or misplays, then bears the full brunt of the enemies' attacks?

Let's get to the spells. Clerics can use DMM: Persist on a big list, I'm sure I'll miss a bunch:

Some spells directly improve your physical attacks:
Divine Power, a given.
Righteous Might, not as good as it was pre-nerf.
Divine Favor, not as good as it was pre-nerf.
Elation (BoED), it can be cast on the whole party and benefits from a Paragnostic Apostle dip for Spatial Awareness.
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SC), it can be cast on the whole party.

Some spells can be used to make attacks:
Ice Axe (SC), 2d12+10 cold damage as a melee touch attack, Str bonus doesn't apply but Power Attack does.
Cloud of Knives (PH2), personal-range so you may only be able to have one active at any given time, it hurls a dagger at a target every round for 1d6+5 and you can add metamagic like Fell Drain, Fell Weaken, Fell Frighten, which should only affect a given creature once per casting of the spell. Not very good unless you can have a bunch of them active and attacking at once.
Holy Star (SC), it creates an object so there's actually no limit on how many you can have active at once. Each one can automatically deliver 10d6 fire damage as a ranged touch attack every round. You can Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize this to deal 60 fire damage (and absorb 7 levels of spells with Spell Turning). You can have one in Spell Turning mode, one in +6 AC mode, and the rest in attack mode. When the Spell Turning one runs out of spell levels, switch it to attack mode and switch another to Spell Turning mode. This is seriously one of the most versatile spells you can persist.

Complete Mage has Divine Magician, which allows you to learn one abjuration, divination, or necromancy wizard spell of each spell level in place of one of your domains:
Shield, it's good for obvious reasons.
Death Armor (SC), as well as Fire Shield (both hot and cold) (in several domain lists) can be used with Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten so anything that hits you in melee gains three negative levels and/or gets shaken > frightened > panicked.
Ray Deflection (SC), seriously among the top defensive spells in the game.
Friendly Fire (EE), also one of the top defensive spells in the game.
(Greater) Anticipate Teleportation (SC), doesn't need persistent but it's worth mentioning.

There are also plenty of domains that grant additional spells, like Fire Shield (see Death Armor). I'm not going to get into those.

Plus you have plenty of spells you don't even need to make persistent:
(Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED), you can wear a Monk's Belt and add your Wis bonus to AC with this.
Magic Vestment, can be cast on the armor/shield effect of Luminous Armor and Shield to add an enhancement bonus to the armor/shield bonus they grant.
Greater Magic Weapon, can be cast on your Ice Axe or whatever your primary melee weapon is.
Energy Immunity (SC), use a Metamagic Rod of Extend and cast it every other day, get a 6th level Pearl of Power and cast it twice per day for only one spell slot to have immunity to four energy types. Spend a second spell slot to cast it every other day (for immunity to all five energy types), and on the days you don't spend that spell slot to cast that, you use it for...
Superior Resistance (SC), +6 to all saving throws, use the above Metamagic Rod of Extend to cast it every other day on the days you're not casting the fifth Energy Immunity.

Plus your spells give you access to plenty of attack options. Get a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell (CA) and use it with Destruction, secondary targets don't even get a decreased save DC because the spell deals damage.

The ubercharger is a one-trick pony, and that trick doesn't even work every time. Plus he's at the mercy of anyone he didn't outright kill once his turn is over. The cleric can be a Death Star of destruction with spells that automatically attack for him, and his defensive buffs make him outright immune to many damage sources and extremely difficult to hit with attack rolls, so he's one of the most likely characters to survive a given encounter.

The cleric can't match the ubercharger's damage numbers (when they happen), but he doesn't need to. He can just laugh at the enemies' attacks, and get consistent damage out every round to wear them down just as effectively.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2018-03-07, 10:45 PM

Thanks for the list. I'll be sure to put it in my notes.

So what you're saying is DMM:Persist clerics are unkillable and that's why DMs hate them?

Theres no need to persist 1hour/level spells so persisting Greater Luminous Armor is redundant.

You must have missed the "Plus you have plenty of spells you don't even need to make persistent" above the hour/level spells.

That's more or less correct, Clerics in general can be extremely difficult to challenge, adding DMM: Persist just adds another level to it and gives them an abundance of offensive options as well.

Goaty14

2018-03-07, 11:23 PM

(Greater) Anticipate Teleportation (SC)

As long as we mention spells (that can't be persisted), Starmantle (BoED, Sor/Wiz 6, Joy 7) gives a creature a DC 15 reflex save every hit or suffer 1/2 damage if the weapon is magic. If not... it destroys the weapon. Considering the reflex is probably a low save (+4 base at this level), a ubercharger might have to suffer 1/4 damage (presuming you have persisted empyreal ecstasy), which goes to negate a few of his multipliers.

AvatarVecna

2018-03-07, 11:45 PM

Thanks for the list. I'll be sure to put it in my notes.

So what you're saying is DMM:Persist clerics are unkillable and that's why DMs hate them?

Theres no need to persist 1hour/level spells so persisting Greater Luminous Armor is redundant.

DMM: Persist (and Incantatrix for that matter) aren't just OP because you can use them to become invulnerable - magic can already do that without Persistent Spell, it just takes a bit longer to come online. DMM: Persist is OP because it lets you spend a cheap resource in place of an expensive one to achieve an effect that shouldn't be available to you for a long time. DMM: Persist takes one of the more powerful metamagics (which is already one of the most powerful ways to affect your spellcasting, which is already one of the most powerful and versatile abilities in the game), and changes things so that you can get it for cheap a dozen levels before it should even be possible.

Even if you don't think "Range: Touch" spells should be persisted (since how far "touch" is can differ based on unarmed strike reach, creature size, and even {if you wanna get picky} character height), Ocular Spell and Reach Spell can turn them into "Range: 30ft" spells, which while not what the designers intended still fit within the parameters for Persistent Spell. But you know, who cares if you're upcasting a 1st lvl spell in a 7th lvl slot to get it all day? Sure, Shield (+5 AC) or Divine Favor (+3 attack/damage) all day is pretty nice, but it's a 7th level spell slot, it's probably kinda underpowered; better to get a much bigger effect for a shorter time frame.

But that's not the problem. The problem is the Cleric 1 casting Persistent Scholar's Touch and "reading" every book in the library and shortening an information search a great deal, or casting Persistent Bless to give the whole party +1 to attack all day. The problem is the cleric 3 casting Persistent Veil Of Shadow for 20% miss chance all day, or casting Persistent Manifestation Of The Deity to force every enemy who sees you in the next 24 hours to make a Will save vs 1 round of shaken, or Persistent Lore Of The Gods for +10 to all Knowledge checks all day; throw that one on a Cloistered Cleric with lots of Knowledge ranks and Knowledge Devotion, and you'll be wracking up +5 to attack and damage fairly frequently. The problem is the cleric 5 casting Channeled Divine Shield; normally, that spell's round/level duration makes taking two rounds to cast it risky, but when you get it all day...just spend two rounds casting it in the morning, and boom, DR 10/evil all day. At level 5.

emeraldstreak

2018-03-08, 02:56 AM

As long as we mention spells (that can't be persisted), Starmantle (BoED, Sor/Wiz 6, Joy 7) gives a creature a DC 15 reflex save every hit or suffer 1/2 damage if the weapon is magic. If not... it destroys the weapon. Considering the reflex is probably a low save (+4 base at this level), a ubercharger might have to suffer 1/4 damage (presuming you have persisted empyreal ecstasy), which goes to negate a few of his multipliers.

A ubercharger won't be suffering anything because this is not a PvP encounter but a comparison of PvE performance.

As for Starmantle or Starmantle Cloak, they benefit from Evasion/Improved Evasion, as from Ring of Evasion. Reflex +13 and a way to reroll natural ones, bye bye weapon damage.

Eldariel

2018-03-08, 05:36 AM

A ubercharger won't be suffering anything because this is not a PvP encounter but a comparison of PvE performance.

As for Starmantle or Starmantle Cloak, they benefit from Evasion/Improved Evasion, as from Ring of Evasion. Reflex +13 and a way to reroll natural ones, bye bye weapon damage.

At a certain level of play, the only credible opponents are high level casters and monsters with high level casting so PvE is fundamentally no different from fighting another PC; the line between PvE and PvP in a system with everyone using the same fundamental rule set is kind of drawn in water, particularly after the obvious and necessary omission of the whole concept of "CR" (which simply doesn't function on any level but particularly poorly past a certain optimisation level). As such, the same considerations need apply, particularly in any cohesive settings that integrate magic as it exists into the game world on any level.

@OP: But yeah, the problem with Charger is that doing more damage is irrelevant. I built a Cleric Charger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger) without Consumptive Field and its ilk that can oneshot a Hecatoncheires on level 11. It's not really optimised and it doesn't use tricks beyond persistifying anything [which you seem to argue against but ultimately that's not that big of a deal; it's just one way to acquire damage immunity, there are plenty of others] but it gets the job done. The principal difference is, casters get options while non-casters do one thing reasonably well. Casters can do just as much damage as non-casters if desired (or more; infinite damage loops exist on all sides of the coin and spell damage is trivial to pump) but casters can also prevent such damage from getting through (from the lowly Wings of Cover [Races of the Dragon] to more extreme options like Celerity, Contingency, etc.) and casters can also bypass things making the enemy not subject to such damage (Force Ward [Spell Compendium], Ironguard [Spell Compendium], Delay Death [Spell Compendium], Hide Life [Tome & Blood], Friendly Fire [Exemplars of Evil], etc.). Thus a mundane attacking something with casting gets to check if he can deal damage. If he can't for any reason (the target evading the attack as a free/immediate action, the target not being subject to the attack, etc.), he's pretty boned. ToB gets few toys to play with but ultimately they too must just happen to have the right magic item to this end.

Meanwhile, caster can try to strip the key defenses or negate them or attack from another angle; physical attacks, area spells, different traps, magic negation, etc. This is why versatility is power. You never know what defenses you might run into (I ran a fighter 6/wizard 1/arcane archer in my first 3.X campaign and eventually we fought a Ragewalker [MM3] which is just immune to missiles; imagine my joy at finding out the one trick I had did absolutely nothing). Of course, this raises the battle on another level when it's more about having the right spells and being able to take the action without the opponent interrupting it, which is where high optimisation games inevitably end up. Once we have crafted contingencies, Instant Refuge/Contingency/all equivalent spells (there's a few), etc. we have a lot of free action actions and one-two immediate actions available and Cunning Legacy Weapon or Foresight or certain class features (Divine Oracle at least) enables acting while flat-footed so it becomes a game of getting the right action edgewise, making the checks, figuring out/creating a chink in your opponent's armor and then capitalising on that before they can restore their defenses.

And of course, killing is useless; Revivify, Last Breath, True Resurrection and their ilk, Clone, etc. (used as Contingencies, consumables on minions, prepared stronghold resurrection tools or whatever) provide ample opportunities to completely ignore death so you must somehow end your opponent without killing them. Unnaming is good though ultimately recoverable, but generally just trapping their soul (Magic Jar, Trap the Soul, Thinaun weapon, etc.) and using it as a spell component or even better, Mindraping your opponent (after stripping them of key defenses) one way or another is the way to go. Annihilating the opponent's soul (provided they have one, but beings that don't are rarely that dangerous) just stops the threat while Mindraping them turns them into an asset.

death390

2018-03-08, 06:31 AM

the thing about DMM: Persist is that a LOT of the great buff spells are normally rnd/lvl.

you don't have to do a crap ton of damage like an ubercharger, buffing yourself (CODZILLA!!)/ allies are a viable pre-battle strategy. don't forget its not just cleric only things, Factorum, theurge cleric/x, cleric dipped casters, ect all benefit from DMM: persist

Don't forget it might cost 6 turn attempts at the begining of the Schtik but metamagic reducers are a thing, nightsticks, ect to get more than a couple persisted spells.

things like

Wraithstrike
Displacement
Blink (greater) etherealness, miss chance, invisibility
hell detect magic (i know kinda crappy to use on) or arcane sight for permanant i see magic effect.
Stat boosters
armor enhancement line
Weapon Augmentation line (don't forget the natural weapon version)
Greater Magic weapon

Blessing of Bahamut for DR 10/ magic
body blaze to trail fire where you walk (ground only)
Citys might +Str Con & DR based on size of city you are in

Any of the spells that give natural attacks, since you know having 15+ natural attacks would be impressive (done it on incarnum with DMM: Persist to get additional attacks)

Stone Skin
Daggerspell stance for early SR (5+CL while defensive fighting)
Deep Breath for preventing inhaled toxins or avoind drowning (underwater exploration anyone!)
Demonhide DR5/ good or cold iron
Diamondsteel for DR x/ adamantine x= 1/2 AC bonus (enhancement bonus does count(
Disrupting weapon = undead save or die = if HD <CL
Divine agility set dex to 18, get spring attack, reflex save bonus = rouge of CL
Divine power (i know you mentioned it but needs to be said agian)

Dragon breath: emulate a true dragons breath weapon (GOOD GOD MAN have you seen some of these? lets see: primatic dragon (70ft cone prismatic spray d4 recharge), brass dragon (cone of fire & sleep), Force (Foce damage), Bronze (Lightning & Repulsion), Copper (Acid & Slow), Silver (cold & paralyze), battle (sonic & fear), chaos (energy [random] & confusion), Howling (sonic & wisdom damaging), oceanic (lightning & dazing), Pyroclastic (sonic/fire & disintegrating), Styxx (persisting acid & int damaging), Shadow (energy drain [negative levels]), vampiric ( 14d10 50ft line fire)) depending on reading you could pick 2 or 3 of those and switch while waiting on recharge (prismatic, pyroclasitc, styxx anyone?)

Earth hammer: adamantine +1 damage size category
energized shield (lesser): reisistance & shield bash bonus damage.
enlarge/reduce spells (weapon or person, items meh)
Ethereal Jaunt
Produce flame (24hr duration spell that only reduces by 1min/lvl per attack? ha)
globe of invincibility (glacial for concealment)
Haste +30ft move speed & +1 attack on full round action
any of the transformative spells like alter self
greater invisibility (blink is actually better i think)
Magic fang spell line
Sanctuary (for a Vow of nonviolence char)

any of the aura/shield spells that deal retributive damge. imagine stacking multiple retributive damage abilities and being the "tank". oh you tried to hit me 3 times that round? 10d6 3 times = 30d6 damage? owch.

spells that give DR? stack them. having DR 15 would be nice.

stacking weapon damage/size mod/ enhancments for that mega weapon?

getting a bunch of natural weapons on a totemist (who get a bunch anyway) + natural weapon enhancers.

Reach spell and such to turn things fixed range to do all day minions and break action economy?
animate spell line, Summon anything spell line, Conjure spell line, Dancing blade.

or Delay death + diehard feat + can't die for the day (unless petrify/disintegrate ect)

Gnaeus

2018-03-08, 06:39 AM

Yeah see that's a summoning spell. So once those swarms hit 0 hp they don't make a will save and die as per consumptive field. Instead they just go poof.

So saying you can catch like 100 w.e. once every two days to fuel consumptive field seems a bit impossible. At least in my opinion, which makes consumptive field more like a "Lets go kill the boss now" prebuffing spell rather than an everyday spell.

In London in the 1800s there were 70 rat pits. Each would kill 100 rats per fight. Multiple fights per night. Professional rat Catchers provided thousands of live rats per pit. Not sure if that was daily or more of a once/twice a week thing. One common medieval method was to put something sweet on your hand and stick it down a rathole or into hay and grab the rat when it bites you. So, easily doable without magic. Still a thing in parts of India, where rat catchers catch 30-40 a day for about 15 cents per rat.

With magic, you get some pipes of the sewers. It’s not a summoning spell, you are calling nearby rats to you. Every single tavern likely has dozens if not hundreds of rats living nearby. If you doubt, try demolishing an empty restaurant before fumigation and see what comes running out from the foundations.

100 rats per 2 days? Easy peasy. You will be helping your community when you do it.

In D&D world if you agree to cast cure disease on the rat catchers every few weeks I bet they’d happily give you all the rats you want.

Anthrowhale

2018-03-08, 06:43 AM

If you are an Initiate of Mystra, then adding Anitmagic Field (persisted last), cast as a 6th level spell from the Magic domain, to the set of spells is highly desirable. You lose the benefit of magic items, but you gain nigh invulnerability to all forms of magic in combination with ray deflection/friendly fire. Non-magical threats can generally be dealt with using the repertoire of spells BF outlines.

DMM[Persistent Spell] also allows a soft ascension at level 13 as per Death Cults (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527654-Death-Cults-a-BBEG-guide) discussion.

Jack_Simth

2018-03-08, 07:57 AM

How do you feed bodies for Consumptive Field? But wow! that spell is powerful!Greater Consumptive Field + Summon Elemental (reserve feat, Complete Mage). Greater Consumptive Field kills things that fall below 10 HP to feed you. A small Air Elemental has 9 hp, and is an at-will standard action in that setup. I'll let you do that math.

magicalmagicman

2018-03-08, 08:44 AM

Pleh

2018-03-08, 10:14 AM

I am surprised a comparison of SLT Ubercharging barbarian vs Codzilla DMM cleric hasn't mentioned Travel Devotion yet (probably the second most popular method for what is essentially pounce).

Eldariel

2018-03-08, 12:19 PM

DMM:Persist is fine under the gentleman's agreement. Virtually everything in 3.5 can be used to break the game, especially the fun ones, so there's no point in making threads like this.

If you use DMM:Persist for stuff like lesser vigor or alter self there's no harm. If you use it for consumptive field it breaks the game. If you stack 1-4 persistent spells nothing's wrong, but if you're stacking 20+ then you're breaking the game.

If a DM bans DMM:Persist because it can break the game, he needs to ban everything that is not t4 or lower.

Definitely not true. DMM: Persist is in the high end of TO and can lead to insane number inflation at virtually no downside. Even just two persistent spells per day leads to 4 with Rod of Extend Spell and you're looking at ridiculous numbers compared to anyone not persisting buffs. And you can use temporary caster level buffs for all-day benefits plus nigh' immunity to dispelling while at it.

magicalmagicman

2018-03-08, 12:36 PM

Definitely not true. DMM: Persist is in the high end of TO and can lead to insane number inflation at virtually no downside. Even just two persistent spells per day leads to 4 with Rod of Extend Spell and you're looking at ridiculous numbers compared to anyone not persisting buffs. And you can use temporary caster level buffs for all-day benefits plus nigh' immunity to dispelling while at it.

I've been in lots of games where DMM:Persist wasn't an issue. The TO part is stacking nightsticks and using spells like consumptive field. You are not going to get more than 1 persisted spell without nightsticks. 2 with extend.

DM didn't even use dispel magic because it didn't matter.

In fact in our group you fully expect the cleric to go DMM:Persist to be a decent buffer. So claiming DMM:Persist is the high end of TO is wrong.

If you're saying we're using DMM:Persist suboptimally, then that just proves my point about the gentlemen's agreement.

Piggy Knowles

2018-03-08, 12:55 PM

Seems like a lot of people have already given you a satisfactory answer to this but it bears repeating....

As far as raw damage is concerned, there is very little that exceeds the damage of a properly optimized ubercharger (there are a few things that claim a higher spot, but not many). Even an only moderately-optimized ubercharger can easily put out numbers far exceeding what most non-mailman blaster mages are capable of putting out. In general, if an ubercharger has a clear shot to its target, its attacks hit, and its opponent doesn't have away of avoiding or negating HP damage, the target at the end of the charge is going to be reduced to a fine red mist. That's what uberchargers do.

Damage-wise, they significantly outpace almost anything your standard persist cleric will be doing in combat. So, if your metric is which build hurts things more, the ubercharger wins any day of the week. If you like big numbers, that's a good build for you.

On the other hand, the ubercharger generally can't do that much more than charge. They are incredibly defensively vulnerable. They are entirely reliant on being able to charge in order to successfully pull off those impressive numbers (and charging is laughably easy to shut down). And, for all their impressive damage, a lot of it is just straight up overkill; being able to announce that you just dealt five figures of damage sounds really impressive, but when the scariest monster in the Monster Manual only has about 700 HP, most of that really isn't that relevant.

Persistomancy, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal. While there are some straight up broken applications (the aforementioned consumptive field being a big one), that's not what it's about. Most of the buffs you will be using with DMM (Persist Spell) are defensive in nature. The point of a DMM (Persist Spell) cleric is to be near-unkillable and put out acceptable enough damage that it gives you something to do in combat, while still also being a full-casting cleric doing the usual tier 1 stuff like using commune or find the path or true sight to bypass entire encounters, or using the magic vestment/greater magic weapon line to save your entire party hundreds of thousands of gold pieces over the course of an adventuring career, or turning every fallen enemy into your own unstoppable animated army or... well, you get the idea. You're comparing two very different things. The advantage to being able to persist spells is that you can set it and forget it: you set up your buffs at the beginning of the day and then you can do whatever the heck you want for the next 24-48 hours, whether it's smacking someone upside the head with your huge spikes-boosted greatclub or destroying the fundamental laws of reality via divine intervention.

For what it's worth I don't consider either ubercharging or DMM (Persist Spell) as necessarily broken in and of themselves, but I also think even trying to compare them via such a metric is just the wrong way of looking at the game.

Pleh

2018-03-08, 02:23 PM

Segev

2018-03-08, 02:29 PM

This thread now has me wondering, can you build an ubercharger (even a lighter version that still does "enough" damage without quite so much overkill) that is ALSO a DMM near-full-casting cleric?

AvatarVecna

2018-03-08, 02:38 PM

Yeah you're right. I see my error.

I've mistakenly associated DMM Persist clerics with clerics that spend 100% of their spell slots to melee, what with Divine Power and Righteous Might constantly being suggested.

But yeah, DMM is about unkillability not damage.

DMM can be about damage too. Sure, it's damage won't be on par with a similarly-optimized ubercharger, but past a certain point more damage just means that people are extra dead (which isn't really an advantage). With just a few spells (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon, Bear's Endurance), your cleric 12 with is looking at these benefits:
Attack +18 (beyond normal bonus, plus an extra attack/round)
Damage +11-14 (beyond normal bonus, plus increase from 1d8 to 2d6)
Reach +5 ft
DR 6/evil
12 Temp HP
36 temporary Real HP

Throw PA on this build and you can trad away 12 of that extra to-hit for 24 damage per swing.

Alternatively, if you prefer to be a cheeky Incantatrix instead of a CoDZilla, just persist half a dozen (or more?) of the "anybody who attacks me/hits me/damages me takes damage" spells, and watch your enemies tear themselves to pieces.

AvatarVecna

2018-03-08, 02:40 PM

This thread now has me wondering, can you build an ubercharger (even a lighter version that still does "enough" damage without quite so much overkill) that is ALSO a DMM near-full-casting cleric?

It's easier with an Incantatrix Wizard, who has access to things like Heroics, Wraithstrike, Greater Mighty Wallop (not to mention FMI for HP). Still, can probably be done by a cleric built right.

Segev

2018-03-08, 02:54 PM

It's easier with an Incantatrix Wizard, who has access to things like Heroics, Wraithstrike, Greater Mighty Wallop (not to mention FMI for HP). Still, can probably be done by a cleric built right.

Incantatrix is better at persistomancy than DMM:Persist anyway, isn't it?

death390

2018-03-08, 02:58 PM

This thread now has me wondering, can you build an ubercharger (even a lighter version that still does "enough" damage without quite so much overkill) that is ALSO a DMM near-full-casting cleric?

yes, but not easily. the problem is the raw number of feats needed.

extend, persist, DMM: Persist.
Power Attack, Improved Bull rush, Shock trooper, Leap Attack.

so 7 feats. assuming 2 flaws, human, & the domain that gives extend spell (time? cant remember which it is) you still would have to wait until lvl 9 for the full shtick to come online.

on the other hand going full persistomancer, @ lvl 9 you could reduce the cost of Persist to +2 (using 4 metamagic reducers). i would reccomend going just dipping 1 level in cleric, and taking 3 levels of Metaphysical spell shaper (book of erotic fantasy, gets you 1 free metamagic & reduces metamagic cost by 1).

cleric 1/ x 5/ MSS 3 = ECL 9 & one unchosen feat (since MSS gives a metafeat and can't reduce persist past 1) eh lets say extra turning.

so Turning attempts: 3+ cha modifier +4 extra turning +4 single nightstick. lets say using a Cha caster with 18 base +2 from lvls 4&8 for 20 Cha, so 5 from that modifier. you could get 16 persisted spells by level 9. + 4 spells every 3 levels if you get extra turning each time.

at that point why do you need to be a ubercharger?

actually reduce that to 12 turning and pick ocular spell/ reach spell. break the game by setting up all the summons, hmm lvl 4 summoning spells, so 12 lvl 4 summons or 12d3 lvl 3 summons, or 12d4+12 lvl2 summons. yeah that can't possibly break the action economy.

Segev

2018-03-08, 02:59 PM

Take out Flaws, take out nightsticks, take out consumptive field, and take out ocular spell/reach spell (which I agree with the FAQ), and I think DMM:Persist is pretty tame. +to hit, bit more damage, more ac/miss chance, it's not that big of a deal imo. Then again I'm someone who thinks persisted wraithstrike is no big deal.

Take out Flaws, take out Pounce, take out certain stacking abilities, and Ubercharger isn't all the big of a deal either.

Of course, it's not that big of a deal ANYWAY, since it's still taking out one enemy or cluster of enemies per round. In terms of real hp dealt, it's possible for a non-optimized fireball-throwing sorcerer to outdo them in the right battlefield conditions, just due to how many orcs he can one-shot at a time.

The main reason ubercharger is not considered as bad as DMM:Persist is because it is just damage. And "just damage" can be handled by a number of means, even allowing it to run off to infinity. A d2 Crusader is even more damaging than an ubercharger, and still is much more manageable due to being much more vulnerable and needing more outside help to stay relevant than a DMM:Persist using cleric.

And I don't think you can fairly remove "all the other things" that make Clerics powerful in this consideration, because that's like saying "wish at will isn't broken as long as we remove magic from the setting, so it can't do anything."

Venger

2018-03-08, 03:00 PM

Incantatrix = Dweomerkeeper in TO power so our table pretend they don't exist :P. We also frown upon dragonblooded subtype for similar reasons.

What do you think is wrong with dragonblooded that puts it on par with incantatrix?

Piggy Knowles

2018-03-08, 03:09 PM

yes, but not easily. the problem is the raw number of feats needed.

extend, persist, DMM: Persist.
Power Attack, Improved Bull rush, Shock trooper, Leap Attack.

Shock Trooper probably isn’t necessary on a cleric charger, since they have other ways of mitigating Power Attack’s penalties (persistent ice axe, for example, can be as effective as heedless charge versus many enemies). That saves you at least two feats. The bigger challenge is getting your hands on pounce as a cleric without losing caster levels.

Eldariel

2018-03-08, 03:10 PM

I've been in lots of games where DMM:Persist wasn't an issue. The TO part is stacking nightsticks and using spells like consumptive field. You are not going to get more than 1 persisted spell without nightsticks. 2 with extend.

DM didn't even use dispel magic because it didn't matter.

In fact in our group you fully expect the cleric to go DMM:Persist to be a decent buffer. So claiming DMM:Persist is the high end of TO is wrong.

If you're saying we're using DMM:Persist suboptimally, then that just proves my point about the gentlemen's agreement.

Sorry, I meant to type PO. DMM: Persist games can function but equally those games invalidate the vast majority of the material available in the game and you'd be foolish not to have some means of persisting spells on yourself at that point (of course, Spelldancer and Incantatrix are both much easier to say nothing of metamagic reduction/demiplane traits and things of that nature, which don't even cost build resources). Thus, it's one kind of game but a very specific one and generally, I don't think Persistent buffs are needed with how powerful caster stuff is in general.

AvatarVecna

2018-03-08, 03:14 PM

Again that's not DMM's fault, that's cleric the class's fault. Naked Featless Cleric20 >>> Uberchargers, so to see just how broken DMM the strategy is, you gotta subtract all the regular cleric stuff from the equation.

See those stats don't really impress me. I played a persisted wraithstrike full casting gish before and i was not impressed. Sure it did more damage than any non-ubercharger mundane could ever hope to achieve, but that was it. Like Venger says, it's just HP damage. Battles are won and lost with BFC spells not damage, and gishes builds' save DC for their BFC spells are crap due to MAD. And 1 dispel magic meant the end of your entire character build.

So I categorized DMM clerics as clerics who built their t1 caster suboptimally to gish, and since they deal less damage than uberchargers, they ain't all that great, and was confused why people kept crying DMM clerics are OP. But as people pointed out, DMM makes clerics do above average damage AND be virtually unkillable too, so basically they are "god moding", which changes everything, because as others have pointed out, Uberchargers need a spellcaster to keep them alive between turns. But not DMM Clerics. Just walk in, laugh, hell even take a nap and they'll kill everything.

Incantatrix = Dweomerkeeper in TO power so our table pretend they don't exist :P. We also frown upon dragonblooded subtype for similar reasons.

I do agree with magicalmagicman though, that DMM:Persist isn't broken unless you set out to completely optimize it and use nightsticks. Take out Flaws, take out nightsticks, take out consumptive field, and take out ocular spell/reach spell (which I agree with the FAQ), and I think DMM:Persist is pretty tame. +to hit, bit more damage, more ac/miss chance, it's not that big of a deal imo. Then again I'm someone who thinks persisted wraithstrike is no big deal.

See, I don't think it's much of a problem either...by spellcaster standards. But when you're gishing, spell casters aren't your measuring stick, martial characters are. Persisted wraithstrike is tame by spellcaster comparisons, because it just lets you attacks with weapons almost as good as attacking with spells. It's only problematic because martials don't have options that let them compete with that. And that's without touching the potentially-NI Str bonus of (Greater) Consumptive Field.

The problem with avoiding the metamagic cost of Persistent Soell is that it makes it insultingly easy fir a caster to be a better beatstick than a beatstick...on top of still being a caster with slightly fewer resources.

Segev

2018-03-08, 03:37 PM

He also says spellcasters should dwarf maritals because "A barbarian in real life can't do **** to a gunship in real life, which is why it makes sense martials don't stand a chance against magic users, so play magic users so you can be a barbarian with a heavy machine gun instead of a greatsword." or something like that.

I disagree with this mindset. Not on what IS, mind you, but on what SHOULD BE. A D&D/fantasy barbarian should be able to cut "gunships" in twain with his mighty battleaxe. He should be doing inhumanly awesome feats that keep up neatly with spellcasters, just differently and perhaps more narrowly.

AvatarVecna

2018-03-08, 03:49 PM

XD

Our table doesn't do mundanes. If you're gonna be a swordmaster, then gish, don't mundane. This way they never get outclassed and the power disparity between players isn't that much of a big deal.

So our measuring stick is always compared to spellcasters. Our DM literally has no idea why people play martials when they can gish.

He also says spellcasters should dwarf maritals because "A barbarian in real life can't do **** to a gunship in real life, which is why it makes sense martials don't stand a chance against magic users, so play magic users so you can be a barbarian with a heavy machine gun instead of a greatsword." or something like that.

Well, here's your answer for why your group doesn't find it a big deal: you're comparing gishes to better gishes and wondering what the problem is, when the problem is that both gishes are miles ahead of their nonmagic "competition". I'm of the opinion that most classes should be in the T2/T3 range, where nobody can fill too many roles too well at once, and nobody's only got one thing they're good at.

I disagree with this mindset. Not on what IS, mind you, but on what SHOULD BE. A D&D/fantasy barbarian should be able to cut "gunships" in twain with his mighty battleaxe. He should be doing inhumanly awesome feats that keep up neatly with spellcasters, just differently and perhaps more narrowly.

Seconded. A barbarian 20 shouldn't look like Conan trying and failing to fight modern warfare vehicles, a barbarian 20 should look like the Incredible freakin' Hulk, in much the same way that a Wizard 20 looks like Dr Strange. When nonmagic classes are supposed to be equally-viable options in the eyes of the developers, and spellcasters are this good, it's more than fair for high-level noncasters to look like superheroes too.

AvatarVecna

2018-03-08, 04:18 PM

Well we do 25 PB and I think that's a good balancing factor. The gishes simply don't BFC because they got companions who can do it better. So I don't think everyone in our group fills all the roles.

But yeah u're right about the rest. We are a high-op table and mundanes don't have a place here, except some forms of uberchargers.

The eternal balance struggle. People want a vaguely-balanced system, but can't make casters too mediocre, and can't make noncasters too anime. Oh, and it has to work well into epic, can't forget that.

magicalmagicman

2018-03-08, 05:48 PM

Sorry, I meant to type PO. DMM: Persist games can function but equally those games invalidate the vast majority of the material available in the game and you'd be foolish not to have some means of persisting spells on yourself at that point (of course, Spelldancer and Incantatrix are both much easier to say nothing of metamagic reduction/demiplane traits and things of that nature, which don't even cost build resources). Thus, it's one kind of game but a very specific one and generally, I don't think Persistent buffs are needed with how powerful caster stuff is in general.

It's not needed but it's nice to have. Persisted Cloud of Knives can give a low level caster cleric a decent way of dealing damage without resorting to the awful crossbow. Players are happy when they cast a persisted spell. You should see the smile on their faces when they do such a thing, so let them be happy!

Jack_Simth

2018-03-08, 08:27 PM

Amazing. 7th level spell too.
There's a hilariously large number of ways to break the game. It only stays intact because of the "gentleman's agreement", which itself boils down to "We're all here to have fun. Don't do things to get in the way of everyone's fun." The exact details of that will vary from table to table. Best advice? Know your table, and stay within the confines of what's expected at your table.

Alright new quesiton, how many DMM:Persists per day before things get to TO? Excluding Consumptive Field. In your opinion.
The defining line is strictly opinion. For all practical purposes, the only answer of relevance is that of those with whom you play.

death390

2018-03-08, 10:06 PM

The sheer amount of game breaking DMM Persist abuse suggested in this thread overwhelmed my mind and temporarily made me forget about the Gentleman's agreement XD.

it was asked how DMM persist could be better than a ubercharger, i don't do halves. i am willing to adjust power to my tables power, but i wont pull punches when asked TO.

hell i avoid miniomnancy in general due to how it slows town a tables pacing, but it is technically one of the most powerful styles due to action economy.

Pleh

2018-03-08, 10:15 PM

Our table doesn't do mundanes. If you're gonna be a swordmaster, then gish, don't mundane. This way they never get outclassed and the power disparity between players isn't that much of a big deal.

Not sure what is "gish" about an ubercharger?

Also, the Natural Spell/Natural Bond/abberant wild shape/rashemi elemental summoning eggynack druid is bemused by your idea that gishes are never outclassed because they mix magic into their swordplay.

Anthrowhale

2018-03-09, 07:52 AM

I said in a later post uberchargers are allowed because they can contribute just as well as a gish in combat. But not non-uberchargers.

There are some alternate mundane builds that do significant damage.

War Hulking Hurler. Large damage by throwing large/dense objects. Comes online ~L10?
Fell Shot Multishot Power Shot archer. Comes online ~L6. Remember that touch attacks ignore DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction).
Master Thrower Palm Throw Two-with-one-blow Weak Spot Power Throw Rapid Shot (and possibly two weapon fighting..). Comes online ~L10. Again, touch attacks ignore DR.

Eldariel

2018-03-09, 10:03 AM

There are some alternate mundane builds that do significant damage.

War Hulking Hurler. Large damage by throwing large/dense objects. Comes online ~L10?
Deep Impact Multishot Power Shot archer. Comes online ~L6. Remember that touch attacks ignore DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction).
Master Thrower Palm Throw Two-with-one-blow Weak Spot Power Throw Rapid Shot (and possibly two weapon fighting..). Comes online ~L10. Again, touch attacks ignore DR.

Well, Deep Impact isn't on the same planet as the others. Hard to stack enough damage bonuses particularly since you need 16 BAB for 4 arrows. Factotum Manyshot spam is okay but with the same reservation. Extra attack stack with Rapid Shot/Whirling Frenzy/Arrow Swarm (Targeteer Fighter) with Knowledge Devotion/Woodland Archer is about the best you can do archery-wise.

But damage is still just damage. It doesn't really do an awful lot in the grand scheme of things until you can one-shot continents, mountains or planets. Then it gets some utility but spells are still obviously far superior.

Anthrowhale

2018-03-09, 11:04 AM

Well, Deep Impact isn't on the same planet as the others. Hard to stack enough damage bonuses particularly since you need 16 BAB for 4 arrows. Factotum Manyshot spam is okay but with the same reservation. Extra attack stack with Rapid Shot/Whirling Frenzy/Arrow Swarm (Targeteer Fighter) with Knowledge Devotion/Woodland Archer is about the best you can do archery-wise.

But damage is still just damage. It doesn't really do an awful lot in the grand scheme of things until you can one-shot continents, mountains or planets. Then it gets some utility but spells are still obviously far superior.

Oops, I meant Fell Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#fellShot) rather than Deep Impact. Technically, this also isn't mundane since you need to be able to do a psionic focus. W.r.t. manyshot damage, you can stack damage from strength and magic effects which make it reasonably potent---not ubercharger levels but adequate to be relevant.

Rapid Shot/Whirling Frenzy/Arrow Swarm aren't helpful for multishot since they require full attacks. They are relevant for Master Thrower Weak Spot.

Damage does have limited utility. I'm skeptical about continental scale damage (relevant to war hulking hurler approaches) having much utility in practice since it's the kind of weapon you can't use very often.

Mato

2018-03-09, 12:39 PM

1. Reach Spell and Ocular Spell do not let a spell qualify for Persistent Spell, as touch spells (even ranged ones) cannot qualify for Persistent spell. The FAQ says this is true as well. Now I know people hate the FAQ, but for this exercise lets say we're going with the FAQ's ruling on the definition of a fixed range spell.

Would spells that have touch range, such as spell
resistance, be considered to have a fixed range, and
therefore be usable with the Persistent Spell feat?

No. Range touch is not “fixed” for purposes of the Persistent
Spell feat. The spell must affect the caster’s person (personal
range) or have some effect that radiates from the caster’s
person (a fixed range, expressed in feet).
That entry does not exist.

I encourage every single person reading this thread to download the official 3.5 FAQ provided by WotC from their website (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) and either read it or use Ctrl+F search the document for the word "Persistent" to read the two entries contained in it.

Mato

2018-03-09, 01:23 PM

It's in the 3e faq not the 3.5.That doesn't help you. At best it is an outdated 3.0 ruling in 06-27-2003 on an outdated 3.0 entry wrote in July 2001. And it doesn't even disagree that a spell with a fixed range of 30ft should be disallowed, it says spells with a range [of] touch should like spell resistance (which has a range entry of touch, not 30ft).

The 3.5 rule set was released in July 2003 and persistent spell was rebalanced, including a spell slot adjustment from +4 to +6, for the 3.5 rule set and released in March 2004. The FAQ for the 3.5 rule set even contains an entry countering the 3.0 idea that it needs to radiate too.

The mass lesser vigor spell has a fixed range (of 20 feet), which makes it eligible for the revised Persistent Spell feat in PG. Does that mean a 17th-level druid could use a 9thlevel spell slot to give nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours, or does the built-in limit of 25 rounds make that pointless?
Unlike Extend Spell, Persistent Spell replaces a spell’s normal duration with a new duration of 24 hours. In this case, the effect overrides the normal maximum duration of the spell, so it would indeed grant nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours (a pretty reasonable effect for a 9th-level spell).Mass lesser vigor is not a radiating effect emitted from the caster capable of affecting everything within it's area, it is a target based spell that only affects the targets the caster is capable of selecting making it similar to chain lightning.

As I said before. Your entry does not exist. Claiming you think you can interpret the text to claim it for a different ruleset fifteen years ago doesn't change the validity of my statement anymore than you trying to argue that persistent spell doesn't alter the duration of a spell at all because Pathfinder's rule set says so.

Mato

2018-03-09, 01:46 PM

I should've looked into it a bit further before posting but...Yes, you should have.

And while it's nice of you to quote me while you know I was editing my post, and not address any of the changes, I really don't see how the fact that you cannot hold a ranged touch spell has any actual relevancy on the topic.

I can only assume that you are having a large problem with not understanding that the range entry of touch (or personal, close, medium, long, unlimited or some other fixed value (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range)) has very little to do with touch attacks. Like you are trying to argue you can hold ray because it requires a ranged touch attack to affect a target. No, most rays have a range of close or some such that prevents you from doing that, you can only hold a spell if it has a range of touch.

VisitingDaGulag

2018-03-13, 12:12 AM

OP: check out the twice betrayer of Shar. It's pretty much one of the early attempts to really use persist to its fullest. Just out of curiosity, what 8th level spells are you afraid of? I'd appreciate a PM if I don't see the reply come in. Shapechange clearly is superior to lower level spells in the same line. But I am hard pressed to find an 8th level spell that I fear more than a 7th level one.

Yes I am aware that other MM doesn't suddenly make nonpresistable spells persistable. Yes, I am aware that nightsticks might not stack by RAW and that getting 100 turns to fuel your DMM eats up all your ECL. But hey, atleast you're not dependent on getting into melee to kill things.

Mato

2018-03-13, 11:46 AM

Oh are we on topic now?

So there is no such thing as DMM:persist vs ubercharge, this thread's premise was silly to begin with. A cleric can trivially perform both at the same time and persisted buffs can only serve to augment your charging damage rather than competing against it.

DMM also wins out through versatility, like charging is a purely circumstantial offensive tactic that reduces your defenses (see shock trooper). Stuff like channeled divine shield's DR 10/evil or contingent energy resistance for resistance 10 provide defensive options. Positive energy aura and provide action-free healing in the middle of combat while freedom of movement can negate entire attack purposes and the monsters dedicated to using them. You can also persist find traps and use a sunder action to all but replace an entire class too. How the OP even made it as far as clicking on the new thread button without thinking of sadism in almost unfathomable to me. Trying to claim you should ignore half of the spell levels in the game and cannot use reach spell still doesn't somehow make charging better, it's just an attempt to drag out an argument longer than it should have gone on.

Mato

2018-03-13, 05:33 PM

I do not enjoy our discussions, and your attitude is something I don't need in my life, so I will not be reading anymore of your posts.I didn't enjoy you spinning off multiple threads every time someone else corrected you in a previous one either so you didn't have to read those posts either. So what?

Here, I pulled this out of my bookmarks for you.

Is there a resource that details which spells are worth persisting using methods to deny spell level cost? (DMM, artificer metamagic wand, etc)
Try this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15110369&postcount=6) for a list of 284 spells that are worth Persisting. :smallsmile: They are from Cleric as well as other classes (since the build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) in question has access to Miracle), and assume access to Reach/Ocular Spell in order to apply a number of spells of touch/variable range.Feel free to not read it and dismiss it for not agreeing with your complex standards.