[3.5] Resurgence Spell

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the Resurgence spell (SC p.174), Cleric 1/Paladin 1/Blackguard 1.

It gives a new save against any ongoing spell, SLA or supernatural ability that allowed a save in the first place.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the spell. But it seems like it might be a tad OP for a 1st level spell, since it essentially can do the same job as higher level spells such as Remove Curse, Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment etc.

I won't be nerfing it in my game, but just curious what others think?

Cheers - T.

[Venger]

Hey all,

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the Resurgence spell (SC p.174), Cleric 1/Paladin 1/Blackguard 1.

It gives a new save against any ongoing spell, SLA or supernatural ability that allowed a save in the first place.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the spell. But it seems like it might be a tad OP for a 1st level spell, since it essentially can do the same job as higher level spells such as Remove Curse, Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment etc.

I won't be nerfing it in my game, but just curious what others think?

Cheers - T.

It's the exact opposite of OP.

Spells like baleful polymorph, insanity, flesh to salt, etc are bad game design because if you don't have a cleric in your party (or if your cleric is the one who got got) then that player has to essentally stop playing the game until you can fix him (assuming that's possible given the party's level, wbl, or travel if you're anti-magicmart)

resurgence fixes this, so it's a good spell. plus it can only be used defensively, so it's not like your pcs will steamroll over bad guys by zapping them with it.

[Thurbane]

It's the exact opposite of OP.

Spells like baleful polymorph, insanity, flesh to salt, etc are bad game design because if you don't have a cleric in your party (or if your cleric is the one who got got) then that player has to essentally stop playing the game until you can fix him (assuming that's possible given the party's level, wbl, or travel if you're anti-magicmart)

resurgence fixes this, so it's a good spell. plus it can only be used defensively, so it's not like your pcs will steamroll over bad guys by zapping them with it.

Absolutely. Ever since I discovered the spell, I consider it more-or-less a must have.

I dunno, just seems a little incongruous to have it alongside spells like the aforementioned Break Enchantment etc.

I don't really have an issue, just feels a little...off, and I can't put my finger on it.

[FelineArchmage]

And remember - the spell only allows you to reroll your save. There is NO guarantee that the character will make the save after casting resurgence. Definitely not OP since there's no definite success. Can't tell you how many times I've failed the save after someone has cast resurgence on me. Ha.

[Venger]

Absolutely. Ever since I discovered the spell, I consider it more-or-less a must have.

I dunno, just seems a little incongruous to have it alongside spells like the aforementioned Break Enchantment etc.

I don't really have an issue, just feels a little...off, and I can't put my finger on it.

Right. It's just that core is poorly designed and badly balanced. There are a huge amount of monsters, spells, and effects that are insurmountable unless you have access to a very specific cleric spell, because they assumed every party had an on-level healbot cleric that survived the fight, prepared the stupid spell, and had an empty high level slot left over to fix you as opposed to contributing in combat.

Resurgence fixes this, and that's a positive thing.

[Malimar]

In anticipation of a fight with a mind flayer, I gave a 4th-level party a 50-charge wand of resurgence. They used several charges to free an NPC ally from a dominate effect, and then they got completely rocked by the mind flayer. The wand didn't help, even though three characters could use the wand automatically and another had UMD. Surprisingly weaksauce spell.

[Venger]

And remember - the spell only allows you to reroll your save. There is NO guarantee that the character will make the save after casting resurgence. Definitely not OP since there's no definite success. Can't tell you how many times I've failed the save after someone has cast resurgence on me. Ha.
Plus it has to be an effect with a save, and you have to be able to waddle over to your friend and touch him, which may not be easy during a combat or similar.


In anticipation of a fight with a mind flayer, I gave a 4th-level party a 50-charge wand of resurgence. They used several charges to free an NPC ally from a dominate effect, and then they got completely rocked by the mind flayer. The wand didn't help, even though three characters could use the wand automatically and another had UMD. Surprisingly weaksauce spell.
That's also at play: action economy is a thing. If someone's doing resurgence, then they're not doing stuff to kill the bad guy.

[Thurbane]

Plus it has to be an effect with a save, and you have to be able to waddle over to your friend and touch him, which may not be easy during a combat or similar.

Mass Resurgence makes this easier.

[Venger]

Mass Resurgence makes this easier.

Numberswise, it definitely does, and on paper it's great.

In practice, though, any effect dire enough to call for resurgence that clips more than one person has probably gotten everyone in the party, and if it's something you want to resurge off, you may well not be able to cast mass resurgence.

[Anthrowhale]

Absolutely. Ever since I discovered the spell, I consider it more-or-less a must have.

I dunno, just seems a little incongruous to have it alongside spells like the aforementioned Break Enchantment etc.

I don't really have an issue, just feels a little...off, and I can't put my finger on it.

Battle Hymn is a level 2 spell that gives a free will reroll to every ally in a 30' radius for round/level.

Alter Fortune is a level 3 spell that's immediate action for a reroll (not a second roll), but with a 200xp cost.

Iron Heart Surge is a level 3 maneuver that automatically ends any condition.

Surge of Fortune is a level 5 spell that as an immediate action allows you to automatically roll 20.

The ordering of these with Resurgence and internally seems correct but they are all powerful effects.

[Fizban]

Yup, a 1st level spell that can basically remove anything, with the only caveat being the target's save or your ability to spam it for 20's. I would also generally allow it, but anything that's supposed to require a specific higher level spell (curses, petrification, etc) ought to be unaffected. Other stuff's just fine though, mind control, BFCs, anything you could normally get out of by waiting out the duration is perfectly fine for an assisted reroll.

Whenever you find a game element that is suddenly and obviously a must-have, that's a pretty good indicator something's off, because nothing should ever be an obvious must-have. If anyone who doesn't have X is underpowered, it is most likely that X is actually overpowered. Of course I'm also the madman who would ban Healing Belts and OMBSLTBPounce, so hey.

Consider the price of Slippery Mind. Or the price of almost any other spell that allows a reroll. Pretty much always more than 1st level. Bumping it up to 2nd would be entirely appropriate- sure, you don't get to use it in response to the save, but instead you get to use it after confirming failure, which can be just as or even more important.

[sleepyphoenixx]

In anticipation of a fight with a mind flayer, I gave a 4th-level party a 50-charge wand of resurgence. They used several charges to free an NPC ally from a dominate effect, and then they got completely rocked by the mind flayer. The wand didn't help, even though three characters could use the wand automatically and another had UMD. Surprisingly weaksauce spell.

The problem here isn't Resurgence, it's the fact that a Mind Flayer is CR 8. More specifically that it attacks with a DC 17 will aoe stun and has SR 25, in addition to its other abilities.
Resurgence is good at giving you a second try, but if your chances of success are minimal to begin with a second try is still unlikely to help you much. It's a good spell, not an i-win button.

That aside there's also the question of action economy. Resurgence is most valuable against long-term effects that are otherwise hard to cure/remove. Stuff you want to remove after combat.
If you're looking to beef up your saves for in-combat use with a first level spell you're better off casting Conviction (SpC) or going to second level spells for Tyche's Touch (LEoF).


Yup, a 1st level spell that can basically remove anything, with the only caveat being the target's save or your ability to spam it for 20's. I would also generally allow it, but anything that's supposed to require a specific higher level spell (curses, petrification, etc) ought to be unaffected. Other stuff's just fine though, mind control, BFCs, anything you could normally get out of by waiting out the duration is perfectly fine for an assisted reroll.

Whenever you find a game element that is suddenly and obviously a must-have, that's a pretty good indicator something's off, because nothing should ever be an obvious must-have. If anyone who doesn't have X is underpowered, it is most likely that X is actually overpowered. Of course I'm also the madman who would ban Healing Belts and OMBSLTBPounce, so hey.

Consider the price of Slippery Mind. Or the price of almost any other spell that allows a reroll. Pretty much always more than 1st level. Bumping it up to 2nd would be entirely appropriate- sure, you don't get to use it in response to the save, but instead you get to use it after confirming failure, which can be just as or even more important.
Petrification is instantaneous, not permanent, so Resurgence doesn't help one bit against it. The same is true for numerous other effects like poison, ability damage, negative levels and so on.
I also wouldn't call it a must-have except in the sense that you need something to cure status effects. It's nice, but that's about it. There are lots of spells that are nice to have. That's kinda the point, otherwise playing a spellcaster wouldn't be fun.
It's very nice on a wand, but that's fine too. The things it's most useful for (removing long-term **** after combat is over) are annoying and add very little to a campaign if you can't remove them.

As for the comparison to Slippery Mind, lets keep in mind that SM doesn't require resources (spell slots/charges) or an action. It's automatic, it's always on and most importantly it also protects you if failing the first save would otherwise leave you unable to cast Resurgence. It's on a whole different level.
That said if you want to raise it to 2nd level i'd still buy a wand of it when money permits for the same reason i'd still cast Restoration if you raised it a level. You don't really get a choice on that kind of status cure.

[Crake]

I don't believe resurgence can end instantaneous effects. It has to be an ongoing spell, something like flesh to stone, the magic has run it's course and is done.

[Zombimode]

Now don't get me wrong, I love the spell. But it seems like it might be a tad OP for a 1st level spell, since it essentially can do the same job as higher level spells such as Remove Curse, Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment etc.

Resurgence only gives another save. It does not remove the effect by itself. That is a very important difference.

Resurgence is great if cast on a creature that failed a save vs. DC 15 with a +12 save Bonus.

It much less useful if cast on Mr. Multiclass Fighter against a will save DC 28 with a +1 Will Save.

Edit: and what Crake said

[Zaq]

Huh. I don’t usually deal too much with casting off the Cleric list, so I never noticed this spell before.

Kind of makes Breath of Cleansing (LEM 4 utterance) seem way overleveled, assuming that the RAI on Breath of Cleansing is basically Resurgence (the RAW is entirely unclear, since it has a duration for some reason, and I don’t know what that duration could possibly mean).

That’s not exactly a new problem, though. Most utterances at LEM 4 and above (and a few lower ones too, like Perceive the Unseen) are overleveled. But at least the effect is decent enough to be potentially worth the effort of learning it, unlike, say, Morale Boost (which emulates a far narrower 1st level spell).

The spell itself seems fine. The action economy issue, in my mind, keeps it from being OP.

Seems like a good candidate for Contingency or Craft Contingent Spell, assuming you’re somehow playing at a sufficiently high optimization level to be mucking around with Contingencies but at a sufficiently low optimization level that you’re not sticking straight up “I win” buttons in said Contingencies.

[Jowgen]

I don't believe resurgence can end instantaneous effects. It has to be an ongoing spell, something like flesh to stone, the magic has run it's course and is done.

Debatable that one. Instantaneous duration is defined as "The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting". Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous effect with a lasting effect, but is (arguably) subject to Break Enchantment. You can also identify materials created or shaped by magic via spellcraft.


So I think there is an argument to be made that instantaneous spells can still create ongoing effects, which might be subject to Resurgence.

[Crake]

Debatable that one. Instantaneous duration is defined as "The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting". Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous effect with a lasting effect, but is (arguably) subject to Break Enchantment. You can also identify materials created or shaped by magic via spellcraft.


So I think there is an argument to be made that instantaneous spells can still create ongoing effects, which might be subject to Resurgence.

Whether it's subject to break enchantment (which it is, the phb explicitly calls it out as an example, even if the SRD does not), doesn't matter, because break enchantment specifically calls out that it works against instantaneous effects. If you're saying resurgence works on instantaneous effects, then it should also work on the damage dealt by a fireball. After all, the damage from a fireball is just as much an 'ongoing effect' as being turned to stone.

[Jowgen]

Whether it's subject to break enchantment (which it is, the phb explicitly calls it out as an example, even if the SRD does not), doesn't matter, because break enchantment specifically calls out that it works against instantaneous effects. If you're saying resurgence works on instantaneous effects, then it should also work on the damage dealt by a fireball. After all, the damage from a fireball is just as much an 'ongoing effect' as being turned to stone.

I do think that there needs to be some sort of clear line to prevent shenanigans like healing HP damage, but in cases where an instantaneous effect creates a lasting "condition" like Petrification or a curse, I think the RAI is clearly in favour of another saving throw being allowed.

To play of your example, lets say someone is subject to Combust (fails their save) and then receives a Resurgence spell. Resurgence is instantaneous, but shouldn't they get another save against being on Fire that round? Or with Enervation, another save against the negative level? Those are clearly ongoing effects (illustrated by a save being allowed later on), even though the spell was instantaneous. Not saying they're the end-all, be all of examples, but I think they quite clearly illustrate that instantaneous spells can't be dismissed out of hand.

[Thurbane]

The previous answers I've received in the Simple RAW thread lead me to believe that Resurgence is effective is effective against effects like petrification...


Whether it's subject to break enchantment (which it is, the phb explicitly calls it out as an example, even if the SRD does not), doesn't matter, because break enchantment specifically calls out that it works against instantaneous effects. If you're saying resurgence works on instantaneous effects, then it should also work on the damage dealt by a fireball. After all, the damage from a fireball is just as much an 'ongoing effect' as being turned to stone.

In regards to HP damage, the spell specfiically addresses this:


Resurgence never restores hit points or ability score damage, but it does eliminate any conditions such as shaken, fatigued, or nauseated that were caused by a spell, spell-like ability,or supernatural ability.

[Lord Haart]

Fun observation: if you have the time, it's best to strip your teammate naked (or at least, remove all magical items) before casting this spell. As far as i can see, attempting a new save and rolling a natural 1 will try to affect your items just as badly as rolling natural 1 on the original save would.