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View Full Version : Wizard vs. Warlock (level 20)



Hario
2007-08-29, 02:28 PM
So my friend, has the inane idea that a warlock will beat a wizard at level 20, I've already explained many of the ways the wizard will win, with little effort (like maximized shivering touch). If I'm wrong prove me. Wizard will almost always beat a warlock, especially on a 1v1. (yes I've read everything on the wizard including TLN wizard's guide)

SadisticFishing
2007-08-29, 02:31 PM
A warlock at level 20 (with Hellfire Warlock 3) will have more than 18 dex. The winner is the one who wins initiative, and/or gets the surprise round.

Maximize/Empower Hellfire Blast, Quicken/Maximize/Empower Hellfire Blast. Fight over.

Quietus
2007-08-29, 02:33 PM
A warlock at level 20 (with Hellfire Warlock 3) will have more than 18 dex. The winner is the one who wins initiative, and/or gets the surprise round.

Maximize/Empower Hellfire Blast, Quicken/Maximize/Empower Hellfire Blast. Fight over.

I'll second this - although if you allow any book out there, the wizard can have contingencies set up to negate it. If they know they're going to 1v1, odds are pretty good the Wizard will have a contingency up that will toast the warlock pretty quickly.

PlatinumJester
2007-08-29, 02:34 PM
Wizard would blow the Warlocks arse into pieces :smallbiggrin: .

Hario
2007-08-29, 02:35 PM
A warlock at level 20 (with Hellfire Warlock 3) will have more than 18 dex. The winner is the one who wins initiative, and/or gets the surprise round.

Maximize/Empower Hellfire Blast, Quicken/Maximize/Empower Hellfire Blast. Fight over.

Nope, Wizard wins iniative, he cast contingency, then maximized timestop, with a maximized otto's irrisitable dance, with 3 delayed fireballs and a maximized shivering touch.

Mad Wizard
2007-08-29, 02:36 PM
Also, a wizard gets Celerity and Time Stop, so initiative doesn't really matter to him. Oops, lost initiative. Greater Celerity! Time Stop! Then, the wizard buffs up and kills the warlock with some sort of spell.

Edit: Heh, I just got ninja'd for the first time.

Fishies
2007-08-29, 02:39 PM
Nope, Wizard wins iniative, he cast contingency, then maximized timestop, with a maximized otto's irrisitable dance, with 3 delayed fireballs and a maximized shivering touch.

12th level spell.

Hario
2007-08-29, 02:42 PM
12th level spell.

Rod of Maximize (greater) completely within the wealth by level of a 20th level character

Fishies
2007-08-29, 02:43 PM
Rod of Maximize (greater) completely within the wealth by level of a 20th level character

Oh! Then the wizard would probably win, I guess...

SadisticFishing
2007-08-29, 02:43 PM
Celerity is an Immediate action. You can't use it when flat-footed. He who wins initiative wins.

Also: The warlock has such crazy UMD he can set up basically any combo a wizard can, as well as doing 300+ damage in a round.

The_Snark
2007-08-29, 02:45 PM
It depends on this: Is the wizard forewarned? Because you can't cast Celerity while flat-footed.

If so, Foresight and Celerity and Time Stop mean that the wizard is going to win. The only chance the warlock has is to get surprise (Foresight's duration isn't long enough to have up at all times), and hit the wizard with the aforementioned metamagic'ed Hellfire Blasts.

A warlock can easily nab invisibility, which means that it's entirely possible that the warlock can have two round's worth of actions against a wizard caught totally by surprise.

If the wizard has had any time to prepare, or can get off even one action, it or even knows that it'll be fighting a warlock sometime soon, it'll win.

Telonius
2007-08-29, 02:46 PM
The Wizard beats the Warlock for the same reason he beats the Sorcerer, or the archer. Blasting and HP damage do not "win" 3.5. Spell versatility does.

Sucrose
2007-08-29, 02:47 PM
He who wins initiative will be the wizard. Foresight + Celerity + Maximized Time Stop= win. (Foresight negates the flatfooted condition, making immediate actions possible in all situations).

Also, if the warlock uses his UMD to do as the wizard, then a wizard beat a wizard, not a warlock. For the statement "a warlock can beat a wizard" to have any meaning at all, he must be doing things associated with warlocks rather than wizards.

Edit: ninja'd!

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 02:47 PM
Sorcerer

Sorcerers can be batman as well - and use exactly the same strategies.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-29, 02:51 PM
Urm, I'm AFB. What's the range on Eldritch Blast, with that invocation that makes it the longest?

Because I'm fairly sure two metaspelllikeability'd hellfire blasts win. And you don't get to roll initiative if the guy is shooting from half a mile away, unless you know he's a threat.

Basically, whoever starts with a bigger advantage wins.

If even? Whoever wings initiative.

PlatinumJester
2007-08-29, 02:52 PM
Sorcerers can be batman as well - and use exactly the same strategies.

No sorcerers can be Robin. Batman's lame sidekick.

Hario
2007-08-29, 02:53 PM
Except the Wizard can use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell to keep Foresight up for a full 24 hours/day if he wants to. Then he can use Celerity to "win" initiative, and therefore the fight.
Or if you have extra feats you can take one of the feats that lower the Spell adjustment you can save yourself an expensive Rod and have it done for free. (I forget the feat's name I think its metamagic mastery)

Citizen Joe
2007-08-29, 02:54 PM
Timestop doesn't allow for casting those attack spells.

Nevertheless, level 20 wizards are well aware of their health and, given the chance, will protect themselves with some sort of magic that essentially negates the first attack by anyone. They are very versatile so I won't say exactly HOW they'll do it, but the easy cop out is just use a wish to do so.

Sucrose
2007-08-29, 02:55 PM
Urm, I'm AFB. What's the range on Eldritch Blast, with that invocation that makes it the longest?

Because I'm fairly sure two metaspelllikeability'd hellfire blasts win. And you don't get to roll initiative if the guy is shooting from half a mile away, unless you know he's a threat.

Basically, whoever starts with a bigger advantage wins.

If even? Whoever wings initiative.

Range is 250 feet with Eldritch Spear. I don't think that there's a longer-range one. If the warlock were able to perform an ambush, then he might be able to take down the wizard...if said wizard doesn't have a contingent spell to protect him.

Not to mention, this favors the warlock: why not give the wizard surprise? Because we all know that the warlock would be slaughtered.

Hario
2007-08-29, 02:56 PM
Urm, I'm AFB. What's the range on Eldritch Blast, with that invocation that makes it the longest?

Because I'm fairly sure two metaspelllikeability'd hellfire blasts win. And you don't get to roll initiative if the guy is shooting from half a mile away, unless you know he's a threat.

Basically, whoever starts with a bigger advantage wins.

If even? Whoever wings initiative. Nah Contingency on cast at something like (about to be hit or something that will effect the caster negatively within X space) can give you an immediate action to cast Maximized Time stop, so the attack never hits, then you follow the basic flow of things.

Telonius
2007-08-29, 02:59 PM
Celerity is an Immediate action. You can't use it when flat-footed. He who wins initiative wins.

Also: The warlock has such crazy UMD he can set up basically any combo a wizard can, as well as doing 300+ damage in a round.

The same could be said for a Rogue, but a Rogue can't beat a wizard in a straight-up fight.

But look at where the argument is going. "Well, if the wizard doesn't know somebody has it in for him, and he doesn't know I'm there, and he doesn't have his spells ready for me, and happens not to see me sneaking up on him ..." Come on, if all that stuff is true, a Commoner with a rock could kill a wizard. But that doesn't make the Commoner class more powerful than the Wizard class. The thing with wizards, is that a proper Batman will always know if somebody has it in for him, will always know you're there, will always have his spells ready, and will always know if somebody's sneaking up on him. The preconditions you're describing just won't exist.

The_Snark
2007-08-29, 03:04 PM
He who wins initiative will be the wizard. Foresight + Celerity + Maximized Time Stop= win. (Foresight negates the flatfooted condition, making immediate actions possible in all situations).

Foresight, however, doesn't have a long enough duration to be up for more than three hours or so. A wizard who's not expecting an attack, and doesn't have, say, a contingent Celerity, will be caught by surprise.

The wizard is, pretty clearly, better; the only scenario in which the warlock has a chance is the one in which he has the advantage of total surprise. If the wizard gets even one action in, the warlock is toast.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-29, 03:08 PM
The same could be said for a Rogue, but a Rogue can't beat a wizard in a straight-up fight.

But look at where the argument is going. "Well, if the wizard doesn't know somebody has it in for him, and he doesn't know I'm there, and he doesn't have his spells ready for me, and happens not to see me sneaking up on him ..." Come on, if all that stuff is true, a Commoner with a rock could kill a wizard. But that doesn't make the Commoner class more powerful than the Wizard class. The thing with wizards, is that a proper Batman will always know if somebody has it in for him, will always know you're there, will always have his spells ready, and will always know if somebody's sneaking up on him. The preconditions you're describing just won't exist.

How... is that possible? When did high level Wizards become Omniscient? Sure they have access to lots of divination spells, but they get only so many spells per day.

Karsh
2007-08-29, 03:09 PM
In other words, the Wizard will win.

That's like saying that you think a Fighter could beat X because under a very specific set of circumstances, he could roll a nat 20 and confirm the crit with a Vorpal weapon. You can't rely on specifics. On average, and more often than not, a Wizard will decimate a Warlock. And assuming that a Wizard doesn't have a Contingent something-or-other is just preposterous. Depending on how cheesy we're being, the Wiz may very well have hundreds of Contingencies per the Craft Contingent Spell feat.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-29, 03:13 PM
In other words, the Wizard will win.

That's like saying that you think a Fighter could beat X because under a very specific set of circumstances, he could roll a nat 20 and confirm the crit with a Vorpal weapon. You can't rely on specifics. On average, and more often than not, a Wizard will decimate a Warlock. And assuming that a Wizard doesn't have a Contingent something-or-other is just preposterous. Depending on how cheesy we're being, the Wiz may very well have hundreds of Contingencies per the Craft Contingent Spell feat.

Can't you only have one contingency spell active at a time?

Also, I'm not so sure it's preposterous. Saying that a Warlock will win if it gets the iniative or a surprise round isn't on par with saying the fighter could roll a 20 and confirm the crit with a vorpal weapon since rolling a nat 20, owning a vorpal weapon, and getting right in the face of the wizard are not key concepts for the class. Being sneaky is a key concept for a Warlock as much as being smart is one for a wizard.

Ramos
2007-08-29, 03:13 PM
A proper Batman will always know if somebody has it in for him.
Not unless he casts many divinations that have a fail chance and are unclear at best. And this eats away spell slots.


Will always know you're there.
Mind Blank, Lead full plate armor, Ring of sequester, antimagic+hide skill, weirding stone or any other technique that automatically blocks divination.


Will always have his spells ready
Not if you're invisibly, undetectably sneaking on him and wait until after he's expended his spells for the day-or at least most of them.


And will always know if somebody's sneaking up on him.
Nope. Antimagic+hide, Mind Blank, Nondetection, Lead full plate, weirding stone and similar techniques.



OR, you can simply have a higher hide check than his spot and a higher spot than his hide (easy) and start blasting him before he makes his spot checks.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 03:17 PM
Foresight, however, doesn't have a long enough duration to be up for more than three hours or so. A wizard who's not expecting an attack, and doesn't have, say, a contingent Celerity, will be caught by surprise.

This is why you extend it via metamagic rod. 6 hours and 40 minutes. 2 of these will do. (that's 2 out of 4 - or 5 with enough int items - 9th level spells).

OverdrivePrime
2007-08-29, 03:18 PM
How... is that possible? When did high level Wizards become Omniscient? Sure they have access to lots of divination spells, but they get only so many spells per day.

When they hit 17th level. http://www.blackbus.org/forum/images/smilies/rimshot.gif


All these series of "ifs" really show how unbalanced this is. Any class could beat a wizard if the situation is tipped in their favor enough. A Level 1 orc with a heavy pick sneaks up and Coup de Graces the wizard when the wizard is passed out drunk. Oh noes! Orcs are crazy broken!

Not to mention that it's ridiculous to compare the power between wizards and warlocks by staging a duel. Solo each through a level 20 adventure. Who makes it out alive and with the most EXP? I'm bettin' on Batman.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-29, 03:19 PM
HP damage can win. Wizards are fragile. A wizard being hammered with a single fireball has a very real chance of dying instantly. At level 11, take a quickened scorching ray (3x4d6 ranged touch) and a maximized fireball (60), and get back to me about HP damage not winning. At level 20, make it a quickened empowered DBF and a maximized empowered DBF...for what's surely a very inefficient way of doing things, but at 1.5x20d6 (105 average) + 120 + 0.5x20d6 (35 average) -> 260 damage it ought to convert any Wiz-20 without fireproofing into a greasy cloud unless they make reflex saves. Blasting monsters may be weak, but blasting people with your level in d4s is another matter. While a warlock can't deal quite that kind of damage, they can still get enough...

The problem is that with full time-manipulation cheese it's nearly impossible to get even a surprise round worth of hits in on a wizard, unless you're using time stop yourself.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 03:22 PM
Also, another important thing being brushed aside is that this is treating that the warlock is a wizard hunter without the vice versa being true.
If the warlock knows the wizard is a threat enough to "surprise round" it, then why doesn't the wizard know the opposite? Is this not a special circumstance?

--
If they both know each other is a threat, the wizard wins.
Otherwise it depends on who's hunting who. And even then, the wizard can still win.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-29, 03:27 PM
All these series of "ifs" really show how unbalanced this is. Any class could beat a wizard if the situation is tipped in their favor enough. A Level 1 orc with a heavy pick sneaks up and Coup de Graces the wizard when the wizard is passed out drunk. Oh noes! Orcs are crazy broken!

Kindly explain how 'wins the iniative' is a really big if?


Not to mention that it's ridiculous to compare the power between wizards and warlocks by staging a duel. Solo each through a level 20 adventure. Who makes it out alive and with the most EXP? I'm bettin' on Batman.

I agree on that staging a 'duel' is silly. D&D is not set up as a 'walk 30 paces and then turn around casting' game. It is much more complicated than that.
However, soloing on an adventure, 20th level alone... obviously this depends on the adventure... I'm on the warlock though slightly more than half of the time. Really depends on how often Mr. Wizard will get a chance to safley replenish his spells.

Moff Chumley
2007-08-29, 03:27 PM
The problem here is, yes the wizard will mechanicaly have the advantage, but what happens if he forgets to, say, cast large gobs of divinations? And even if he does, there's no reason for the Warlock not to invoke Path of Shadow or Flee the Scene* (remember, at will), and then throwing around a quickened eldritch blast and then disapearing again. Also, Warlocks have forsight also.

*If done right, there is absolutely no reason for the Wizard to suspect anything happened when this is cast.

Overlard
2007-08-29, 03:29 PM
In other words, the Wizard will win.

That's like saying that you think a Fighter could beat X because under a very specific set of circumstances, he could roll a nat 20 and confirm the crit with a Vorpal weapon. You can't rely on specifics. On average, and more often than not, a Wizard will decimate a Warlock. And assuming that a Wizard doesn't have a Contingent something-or-other is just preposterous. Depending on how cheesy we're being, the Wiz may very well have hundreds of Contingencies per the Craft Contingent Spell feat.
Well so can the warlock. You can't discount the crafting and UMD abilities of the warlock just because they replicate some of the wizard's spells, as that's one of their class features.

A well-prepared wizard can dominate pretty much every encounter, but don't discount the warlock. They can prepare too, it's just tougher for them to do.

My money's on the wizard, but it's not as simple as winning initiative. A well-prepared warlock is a lethal opponent.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-29, 03:36 PM
This is why you extend it via metamagic rod. 6 hours and 40 minutes. 2 of these will do. (that's 2 out of 4 - or 5 with enough int items - 9th level spells).

24 hours in a day the last time I checked.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 03:38 PM
24 hours in a day the last time I checked.

With 9-10 of that being in a mage's magnificent mansion.
There is also nothing that says the wizard must go 24 hour shifts.
13 hours of foresight, 10 hours in a mansion, repeat.


Kindly explain how 'wins the iniative' is a really big if?
Because winning initiative doesn't matter. Celerity combos cause this unfortunately.

To a side of this, can a warlock use a scroll into a contingency? If yes, then they can reproduce one of these combos. However, this will get ridiculously expensive (beyond the WPL guidelines) compared to something the wizard can do every day.

TheElfLord
2007-08-29, 03:40 PM
24 hours in a day the last time I checked.

after 12 hours or so the Wizard goes back to his magnificent mansion and rests.

Moff Chumley
2007-08-29, 03:44 PM
To a side of this, can a warlock use a scroll into a contingency? If yes, then they can reproduce one of these combos. However, this will get ridiculously expensive (beyond the WPL guidelines) compared to something the wizard can do every day.

Something that bugs me about this, sinse the majority of warlocks happen to be evil, and this one's at twentieth level, what's to stop them from stealing all the money they like? Invisibility, Path of Shadow, mislead, etc.

Hario
2007-08-29, 03:48 PM
Something that bugs me about this, sinse the majority of warlocks happen to be evil, and this one's at twentieth level, what's to stop them from stealing all the money they like? Invisibility, Path of Shadow, mislead, etc.

Newsflash, wizards can be evil too. Also any sane DM won't let them get anything too much more than WBL. Anything the warlock can do, the wizard does 5x better. Also I'm almost positive you can't cast a spell like celerity as an immediate action because it takes a standard action to use a scroll. So they can't be as good as the wizard in that aspect

Sucrose
2007-08-29, 03:51 PM
Something that bugs me about this, sinse the majority of warlocks happen to be evil, and this one's at twentieth level, what's to stop them from stealing all the money they like? Invisibility, Path of Shadow, mislead, etc.

The same thing that stops the wizard from selling raw materials from the Wall of Iron spell, or dominating a few kings; it's outside the bounds of the argument.

Overlard
2007-08-29, 03:51 PM
Newsflash, wizards can be evil too. Also any sane DM won't let them get anything too much more than WBL. Anything the warlock can do, the wizard does 5x better. Also I'm almost positive you can't cast a spell like celerity as an immediate action because it takes a standard action to use a scroll. So they can't be as good as the wizard in that aspect
But they can create and use scrolls of time stop and every other cheap trick that uses a standard action.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 03:53 PM
Hario: Not the point of the above, just defining whether or not it's a viable tactic for the Warlock. Which s/he did give a proper way for the warlock to. Of course, using this breaks WBL and also gives the wizard the ability to as well - perhaps this will be referred to later - but doesn't matter in this case.

Aside, this relies on whether or not casting a spell is the same as casting a scroll for the use of contingency. If yes - then it depends on spot/listen to identify a threat first or a more creative wording of contingency than the opponent - a 50%/50% throw here. If no - the wizard wins the "roll for initiative" by virtue of initiative not mattering.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-29, 03:57 PM
With 9-10 of that being in a mage's magnificent mansion.
There is also nothing that says the wizard must go 24 hour shifts.
13 hours of foresight, 10 hours in a mansion, repeat.

I like wizards.

They are powerful interesting characters but it is not a given they always win initiative and are always prepared for every contingency just because they are full casters with high intelligence even for the truly security conscious players.

Most PCs don't play their wizards that way burning their spells for general preparedness in game. Does your wizard normally cast 3 extended foresights each day when you are adventuring?

Still need 3 spells if spending 9 - 10 hours in your mansion which you normally enter and exit via the portal. Most Necromancers are certainly in trouble along with any wizard without those spells cast several times during the day.

Talk about a checkpoint for targetting a high level wizard.

At the levels we are talking having anti divination magics should be pretty standard for defeating Foresight or Divination spells regarding if it is safe to go outside?

I'll concede the wizard could leave via another spell on a routine security basis. which if they do on a daily basis burns up spells.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-29, 03:57 PM
Something that bugs me about this, sinse the majority of warlocks happen to be evil, and this one's at twentieth level, what's to stop them from stealing all the money they like? Invisibility, Path of Shadow, mislead, etc.

Because then they're getting into a game of "who can break the economy the hardest?" with the wizard, and the wizard wins so very hard there. Heck, the wizard can Major Create vast amounts of black lotus poison (3000 gp/dose) and sell it. Or use chained Flesh to Salt on a bunch of cows and sell the salt. Or other simple tactics that mean the wizard is as wealthy as he wants to be.

As for awareness, "is someone actively pursuing me in order to kill me?" or some other such question can be handled by a casting of Commune (spontaneous via the horrible Complete Champion variant, which contacts a deity (which can use its divine senses and SDAs, forget "lead-lined continuous-AMF armor". The wizard can also spend all of his time flying, resting in magnificent mansions in the air or at the bottom of the ocean.

Besides, how are you going to find him? The wizard can cast Mind Blank, Detect Scrying, Nondetection, et al. Heck--how do you even know which plane he's on at any given time? Using Communes to track down a teleporting, plane-shifting opponent is going to be a lot tougher than using them to find out whether someone is after you.
The wizard has the advantage whether both people are out to kill each other and know about the other, he has the advantage even if they don't, and if he's sufficiently paranoid, he does it even if there's a Warlock assassin who knows everything about him whom he doesn't know exists.

Moff Chumley
2007-08-29, 04:00 PM
My point was, Warlocks are descended from demons. They are almost always evil, the way I see it, and the good and nuetral ones are like good and nuetral drow. Horribly cliche, but theoretically like a minority. Wheras wizards can be of any alignment, only slightly favoring lawful. And any sane DM wouldn't just say, 'ah, nope, can't do that, try again.'

Kurald Galain
2007-08-29, 04:02 PM
Let me put it this way...

there's a reason the company isn't called Warlocks of the Coast.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-29, 04:04 PM
Hario: Not the point of the above, just defining whether or not it's a viable tactic for the Warlock. Which s/he did give a proper way for the warlock to. Of course, using this breaks WBL and also gives the wizard the ability to as well - perhaps this will be referred to later - but doesn't matter in this case.

This sort of gets to the ultimate point here... how can we concievably figure this out without actually comparing builds and rather strictly (meaning equal wealth, equal exp allowed to be spent on crafting, etc. before reaching 20th level)?

Then, of course, any game would basically become spy vs. spy if both sides know about eachother.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 04:11 PM
I like wizards.
I don't :smallfrown:


They are powerful interesting characters but it is not a given they always win initiative and are always prepared for every contingency just because they are full casters with high intelligence even for the truly security conscious players.
They don't always win initiative. A proper batman does always have his celerity contingency going however - which is just as good.

Most PCs don't play their wizards that way burning their spells for general preparedness in game. Does your wizard normally cast 3 extended foresights each day when you are adventuring?
2 Extended Foresights, not 3. And no, my sorcerers don't (I don't like playing wizards anymore). It's not the aspect of what generally happens - this is a power battle and not a "what generally happens".


Still need 3 spells if spending 9 - 10 hours in your mansion which you normally enter and exit via the portal. Most Necromancers are certainly in trouble along with any wizard without those spells cast several times during the day.
1 7th level (mansion), 2 9th level (foresight). At 20th level, if this means you stay alive vs. most nearly every threat - go for it. 1 slot for time stop (which leaves you with 2 more 9th slots even), and run with it. What else do you use your 9th level spells on? Shapechange? Gate?



At the levels we are talking having anti divination magics should be pretty standard for defeating Foresight or Divination spells regarding if it is safe to go outside?
You can 'defeat' Foresight? :smallconfused:



I'll concede the wizard could leave via another spell on a routine security basis. which if they do on a daily basis burns up spells.
They have enough by this level.


Also, rereading foresight - it also says

You are never surprised or flat-footed.

Is the surprised part... the surprise round? *sigh* if so.


@ AKA_Bait
I fully agree. :smalleek:
Also

Then, of course, any game would basically become spy vs. spy if both sides know about eachother.
I loved that comic! This makes me want to play "silly spy wizards hunting each other" now!

Overlard
2007-08-29, 04:12 PM
My point was, Warlocks are descended from demons. They are almost always evil, the way I see it, and the good and nuetral ones are like good and nuetral drow. Horribly cliche, but theoretically like a minority.
Nope. Some of them are descended from demons and devils. Others are descended from celestials, or fey or any other supernatural being, or are the descendants of people that dealt with them generations ago.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-29, 04:16 PM
Couple of points,

1 - if the wizard lets the warlock surprise him he/she deserves all that comes. ie contingencies (up to their own Hit Dice worth with the craft feat, divinations and raw super geniusness reality warping

2 - By level 20 they are both well aware of each other, what each other is motivated by and what they're likely to do in almost any situation. You don't get to level 20 by living in a box. The characters that reach those scarey heights must be keeping tabs on each other, if only to make sure that if one of them comes apart and summons a hundred solars the rest get enough warning to run.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-29, 04:22 PM
2 - By level 20 they are both well aware of each other, what each other is motivated by and what they're likely to do in almost any situation. You don't get to level 20 by living in a box. The characters that reach those scarey heights must be keeping tabs on each other, if only to make sure that if one of them comes apart and summons a hundred solars the rest get enough warning to run.

If they have been on the same plane the whole time... if 20th level characters spent all their time keeping tabs on the big scaries of the entire universe they would never, ever, sleep and still not keep up with everyone. There are plenty of other big scaries to be watching, like Demon Princes, and the like besides classed characters too.

Droodle
2007-08-29, 04:26 PM
I don't :smallfrown:

They don't always win initiative. A proper batman does always have his celerity contingency going however - which is just as good.For one encounter....unless your wizard is blowing multiple spell slots on celerity and contingency in order to re-set the contingency after each and every encounter.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-29, 04:27 PM
If they have been on the same plane the whole time... if 20th level characters spent all their time keeping tabs on the big scaries of the entire universe they would never, ever, sleep and still not keep up with everyone. There are plenty of other big scaries to be watching, like Demon Princes, and the like besides classed characters too.

Granted, but the scenario envisions two high levels having a ruck, not something they are liable to do if there isn't a serious personal motivation. My point is that at that level they keep aware of who's around them in their "local" area, who they've interacted with and anyone else they might have inadvertantly pissed off. which can be done with a few divs, a cleric buddy and a true-sight crystal ball. For the wizard and the warlock to suddenly materialize out of thin air and start whacking each other with big sticks we're talking "playthings of the gods" levels of randomness..... in which case Wizards will own.:smallcool:

AKA_Bait
2007-08-29, 04:35 PM
Granted, but the scenario envisions two high levels having a ruck, not something they are liable to do if there isn't a serious personal motivation. My point is that at that level they keep aware of who's around them in their "local" area, who they've interacted with and anyone else they might have inadvertantly pissed off. which can be done with a few divs, a cleric buddy and a true-sight crystal ball. For the wizard and the warlock to suddenly materialize out of thin air and start whacking each other with big sticks we're talking "playthings of the gods" levels of randomness..... in which case Wizards will own.:smallcool:

Yes, so I suppose I also should have mentioned above about running builds against eachother that the nature of the plane and terrain would also need to be specified in advance of the build. Which quite possibly, would lead to alternate optimal builds and alternate winners in different places.

Gee this sounds like quite a chore. Perhaps this is why WotC balances classes, as parties, against encounters and not against eachother... at least until 4.0 allegedly.

JaxGaret
2007-08-29, 04:35 PM
If they have been on the same plane the whole time... if 20th level characters spent all their time keeping tabs on the big scaries of the entire universe they would never, ever, sleep and still not keep up with everyone. There are plenty of other big scaries to be watching, like Demon Princes, and the like besides classed characters too.

QFT.

Also, you stink. Really. I can smell you from here. Phew!

Sucrose
2007-08-29, 04:36 PM
For one encounter....unless your wizard is blowing multiple spell slots on celerity and contingency in order to re-set the contingency after each and every encounter.

It's a fourth-level spell slot and a sixth-level spell slot; it's worth the expense, and easily affordable to a level 20 caster.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 04:37 PM
For one encounter....unless your wizard is blowing multiple spell slots on celerity and contingency in order to re-set the contingency after each and every encounter.

Assuming 5 encounters a day. That's 5 out of 6 (int bonus spells) of 4th level spells and 4 out of 6 of 6th level spells. (1 higher to be safe - cause the wizard can)

So letsee how many spell slots our wizard has (32 int - 16 base + 6 item + 5 levels + 5 tomes) after 2 foresight, 1 timestop, 5 contingency, 5 celerity.
1st: 7
2nd: 7
3rd: 7
4th: 1
5th: 6
6th: 1
7th: 5
8th: 5
9th: 2

This is gimping on that the wizard could have 4 more int (race and 18 base instead) - giving another 4th, 5th, 8th level and 9th level spell slot - and assumes 1 more encounter than "recommended".

AKA_Bait
2007-08-29, 04:38 PM
QFT.

Also, you stink. Really. I can smell you from here. Phew!

Rocks fall. Wizards in AMF fields die.

Note to any mod: JaxGaret's post is not flaming but playful banter, I've know him for 20+ years.

JaxGaret
2007-08-29, 04:39 PM
For the wizard and the warlock to suddenly materialize out of thin air and start whacking each other with big sticks

Happens all the time. Some kind of Wizardy-Warlocky mutual hatred deal.

JaxGaret
2007-08-29, 04:43 PM
Rocks fall. Wizards in AMF fields die.

Note to any mod: JaxGaret's post is not flaming but playful banter, I've know him for 20+ years.

Wizards in AMF fields die anyway.

Note to any mod: Do not listen to this man, he eats Babies Au Gratin.

Aquillion
2007-08-29, 04:48 PM
Notice how much people are depending on Greater Celerity, though. Several things:

1. Everyone knows Celerity is broken and contingencies can be abused in PVP. That fight isn't "Wizard v. Warlock", that's "Warlock v. Celerity". We don't need to ask that one. If we had a fight of "Wizard 20 with the full combat abilities of a fighter, but no celerity or contingencies" vs "Warrior 20 + perma-foresight + the ability to cast Celerity, nothing else", the warrior would win every time. Using Celerity + Foresight to always go first is like saying you become Pun-Pun and use your omnipotence to always go first. Sure, it's fun to talk about it for theoretical optimization... but what about things you can actually do, in an actual game, without being beaten to death by your fellow players?

2. Without celerity, Foresight doesn't help as much as you'd think it does. It gives you a warning just before you get attacked--enough to save you from being flat-footed, but not enough to help you more than that. (It says you have just enough time to shout a warning if you have it on someone else, say.) You can still lose initiative. Likewise... wasting all your spell slots and WBL keeping Foresight up constantly is not something anyone does. If the wizard has to rely on a completely absurd set of circumstances like that to win a fight reliably, then something is wrong. (Notice that the Warlock, here, is not really anything special... just a decently optimized damage-dealing blaster. If the wizard has to rely on a completely paranoid defensive strategy that nobody actually uses to protect against that, doesn't that tell you something?)

3. Given the above... The wizard can win, if they win the initiative, or if they know they're about to be attacked somehow and cast lots of short-term buff spells and so forth. Those are both, when you get down to it, fairly big ifs... and even with those, what it comes down to is this.

* The warlock wins if he takes the wizard by surprise.

* The wizard wins of he takes the warlock by surpise.

* If nobody gets a chance to prepare and both stumble across each other, whoever gets initiative wins. This will usually be the Warlock, since they're likely to have higher dex.

* If both get a chance to prepare, the wizard usually wins, although a lot depends on how specifically they know what they're preparing for, how specifically they know when the fight will occur, and how much chance they get to prepare.

Sucrose
2007-08-29, 04:57 PM
Notice how much people are depending on Greater Celerity, though. Several things:

1. Everyone knows Celerity is broken and contingencies can be abused in PVP. That fight isn't "Wizard v. Warlock", that's "Warlock v. Celerity". We don't need to ask that one. If we had a fight of "Wizard 20 with the full combat abilities of a fighter, but no celerity or contingencies" vs "Warrior 20 + perma-foresight + the ability to cast Celerity, nothing else", the warrior would win every time. Using Celerity + Foresight to always go first is like saying you become Pun-Pun and use your omnipotence to always go first. Sure, it's fun to talk about it for theoretical optimization... but what about things you can actually do, in an actual game, without being beaten to death by your fellow players?

2. Without celerity, Foresight doesn't help as much as you'd think it does. It gives you a warning just before you get attacked--enough to save you from being flat-footed, but not enough to help you more than that. (It says you have just enough time to shout a warning if you have it on someone else, say.) You can still lose initiative. Likewise... wasting all your spell slots and WBL keeping Foresight up constantly is not something anyone does. If the wizard has to rely on a completely absurd set of circumstances like that to win a fight reliably, then something is wrong. (Notice that the Warlock, here, is not really anything special... just a decently optimized damage-dealing blaster. If the wizard has to rely on a completely paranoid defensive strategy that nobody actually uses to protect against that, doesn't that tell you something?)

3. Given the above... The wizard can win, if they win the initiative, or if they know they're about to be attacked somehow and cast lots of short-term buff spells and so forth. Those are both, when you get down to it, fairly big ifs... and even with those, what it comes down to is this.

* The warlock wins if he takes the wizard by surprise.

* The wizard wins of he takes the warlock by surpise.

* If nobody gets a chance to prepare and both stumble across each other, whoever gets initiative wins. This will usually be the Warlock, since they're likely to have higher dex.

* If both get a chance to prepare, the wizard usually wins, although a lot depends on how specifically they know what they're preparing for, how specifically they know when the fight will occur, and how much chance they get to prepare.

A. Nerveskitter helps for winning initiative.
B. We don't need Greater Celerity. The normal version works fine. In any case, Celerity is only broken when you have the obscene power that a wizard possesses, which can ensure that there isn't a second round. A Wizard would kick the ****e out of a Warrior with Celerity, because all the Warrior could do in his free standard action is whack him with a sword once. He'd then be unable to act for a round, which is long enough for said Wizard to end the combat.
C. We are talking about theoretical optimization here; the OP asked for people to demonstrate the greatest possible power of both classes, to demonstrate "who could win in a fight". Holding back part of the wizard's power because "it's cheese" is thus entirely invalid.
In a campaign, it would be a bit closer, as the wizard has a greater threshold of maximum power, but isn't necessarily a whole lot easier to optimize, but then you run into the difficulty of the fact that both would then be in a party, and a wizard has innumerable utility options that a warlock simply cannot duplicate (unless he takes up UMD, in which case he's pretty much just Wizard Lite), so the wizard, even if the fight were even (which it likely wouldn't be, depending on the optimization competence of the participants), would still be the "stronger" character, as he could overcome the challenges more easily than the warlock.
D. It's not that unreasonable to use the strategy that is being proposed here, with the possible exception of excessive use of the Time Stop "I Win" button, which would only be an issue if you had party-mates that wanted to contribute. For a lone wizard, everything proposed has been eminently reasonable.
E. Wizard gets bonus feats. These free up feat slots that the warlock has to spend, making Improved Initiative more likely for a wizard than a warlock.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 05:10 PM
1. Everyone knows Celerity is broken and contingencies can be abused in PVP. That fight isn't "Wizard v. Warlock", that's "Warlock v. Celerity". We don't need to ask that one. If we had a fight of "Wizard 20 with the full combat abilities of a fighter, but no celerity or contingencies" vs "Warrior 20 + perma-foresight + the ability to cast Celerity, nothing else", the warrior would win every time. Using Celerity + Foresight to always go first is like saying you become Pun-Pun and use your omnipotence to always go first. Sure, it's fun to talk about it for theoretical optimization... but what about things you can actually do, in an actual game, without being beaten to death by your fellow players?


Not always true sadly - the fighter has to reach the wizard :smallfrown: - and people usually become well aware before that distance is reached (properly).

Also, celerity + foresight is a simple 2 spell combo. Not very, uhm, pushing there. Contingency just adds to the pain. You are removing single parts of the class with each of these - and are a part. Contingency is even core at that - and is a combo machine in of itself. This isn't that ridiculous (compared to the large work of pieces pun-pun has, quite a different scale here.)



but not enough to help you more than that.

Note: It does say it keeps you from being surprised - so it removes the surprise round chance from occurring.
The flat-footed part is enough for instantaneous actions - which is quite the whole point. (Allowing you to cast celerity, or greater - the level 4 version is all you need however)

You're risking your life at every given moment - how is this not anymore paranoid than putting on a kevlar jacket before you go on duty in detroit? The difference: This weighs nothing and takes less time to do.

For optimizing the warlock; I'm not familiar enough with warlocks to do so - so I can only think of UMD "optimizing" which is already discussed. :smalleek:



E. Wizard gets bonus feats. These free up feat slots that the warlock has to spend, making Improved Initiative more likely for a wizard than a warlock.

And lucky start. :smalltongue:

Funkyodor
2007-08-29, 05:43 PM
Celerity by itself is just as powerful as other 4th lvl spells (rob peter this round and pay paul the next). It increases in power with Contingency to that of other 6th level spells (Ah, you targeted me with an effect? Clearly within my contingency statement, Bam! I get to go now. You're blind stunned and you might as well bend over you're done.). And when combined with an extended Foresight it increases in power to that of other 10th lvl spells. Oh, you want a piece of me? Sorry, I go first and because I always carry my rod of maximize in my hands at all times. Maximize Time Stop, yadda, yadda, yadda, Splat.

Anyway back to contingency. It's important to remember that too general a contingency statment is just as bad as too specific one. If a hissing cat or barking dog will set it off (targeting you with an Intimidate effect) then it's just not reliable enough to go off when you want it to.

Jack Mann
2007-08-29, 05:55 PM
I think that some people do overestimate how powerful wizards are at the high end. They're nigh-invulnerable, but they can be taken out. Granted, this is mostly by other wizards or gods, but it can happen.

However, in a duel, the point isn't whether or not the warlock can win, it's whether or not he's more likely to win. And he isn't. The sheer number of options open to a wizard, even one not optimized to the hilt, is staggering. He has far more defenses and more ways to defeat his enemies.

And a duel doesn't show how powerful a class is in any event. Very few D&D adventures consist of a series of one-on-one fights between one player and an NPC with class levels. Most are played as a team against a number of varied challenges ranging from the monstrous (demons, dragons, purple worms) to environmental (we need to cross the ocean, then get to the top of that mountain, and then visit Union for a cuppa). The greatest weakness of warlocks is that they aren't team players. Their damage from round to round just isn't that great compared to a fighter's. Metaspell-like abilities just can't be used that often, and they don't do much damage otherwise. They're great for endurance runs, but that doesn't help if no one else can keep up with them. They're good at whittling away at an enemy while staying out of reach and out of sight, but that doesn't do their party any good. Meanwhile, the wizard buffs up the fighter types, debuffs the enemy, controls the battlefield, and summons up breakfast for the whole gang.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-29, 05:56 PM
I don't :smallfrown:

They don't always win initiative. A proper batman does always have his celerity contingency going however - which is just as good.

2 Extended Foresights, not 3. And no, my sorcerers don't (I don't like playing wizards anymore). It's not the aspect of what generally happens - this is a power battle and not a "what generally happens".

You can 'defeat' Foresight? :smallconfused:


Also, rereading foresight - it also says


Is the surprised part... the surprise round? *sigh* if so.


@ AKA_Bait
I fully agree. :smalleek:
Also

I loved that comic! This makes me want to play "silly spy wizards hunting each other" now!

So what is the proper Batman wording for your contingency?

Mind Blank from the PHB this spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

Last time I checked Foresight was a Divination spell.

Edit: The specific conditions and wording for triggering the wizard's Contingency spell containing Celerity.

How does your contingency spell interact with a being under the affects of a Antimagic field or if the wizard enters an Antimagic field?

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 06:34 PM
So what is the proper Batman wording for your contingency?

Mind Blank from the PHB this spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

Last time I checked Foresight was a Divination spell.
Neat! Reading it however, being one creature and information blocking based only for Divination - this is up for debate whether it would prevent identification of a threat from being foreseen when it's already known. This would allow the warlock (who used this scroll) to gain the surprise round again, at least, however - in the case of initiative vs. initiative - foresight would still be well enough to act as a "anti flat-foot". At least, in my opinion. I wish both spells were worded better. :smallsigh:

For contingency - I don't know. Yet to play batman in full effect. How would this work:
"When I say 'meow'"
since:

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn.


The conditions and wording for triggering your Contingency for Celerity.

How your contingecy interacts with a being under the affects of a Antimagic field or entering an Antimagic field accidentally.
Fragmented sentences, please consider revising. :smalleek:

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-29, 06:35 PM
So my friend, has the inane idea that a warlock will beat a wizard at level 20, I've already explained many of the ways the wizard will win, with little effort (like maximized shivering touch). If I'm wrong prove me. Wizard will almost always beat a warlock, especially on a 1v1. (yes I've read everything on the wizard including TLN wizard's guide)

Since we are on page 3 now this was the OP.

In a 1 on 1 duel in an arena a wizard able to choose his known spells and knowing he will be facing a duel the wizard would have a definite advantage that would be very hard to overcome. Against most single dimension frontal attacks they are hard to beat.

Out of an arena the standard defense seems to be contingency, foresight and hiding out in a Mord's Mansion when out of spells.

What percentage of wizard's routinely cast those spells continuously adventuring or wandering about town? A single attacking SM1 would trigger those defenses like a sweet little puppy nipping at the wizard.

Misdirection with a twofold layered attack: Have a Simulacrum attack initially and attack the wizard after spells triggered and he has finished destroying the Simulacrum. Most wizards do not plan for that.

This Warlock 20 could get creative using a few Miracles or Wishes from a scroll to neutralize the Wizard's defenses. Target and destroy his spell books. Interrupt his downtime so he doesn't get his 8 hours of sleep.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 06:41 PM
All of the above is options to the wizard as well. And how does one expect to find a wizard in a MMM - notably - lets also give the wizard mind blank.

Simply - the wizard has more options.
They both have 1 hit removal effects. The wizard has more room to move from there. All of the above, and more (more due to instantaneous and swift not holding to scroll form).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-29, 06:57 PM
Neat! Reading it however, being one creature and information blocking based only for Divination - this is up for debate whether it would prevent identification of a threat from being foreseen when it's already known. This would allow the warlock (who used this scroll) to gain the surprise round again, at least, however - in the case of initiative vs. initiative - foresight would still be well enough to act as a "anti flat-foot". At least, in my opinion. I wish both spells were worded better. :smallsigh:

For contingency - I don't know. Yet to play batman in full effect. How would this work:
"When I say 'meow'"
since:



Fragmented sentences, please consider revising. :smalleek:

I reread the OT by the OP and IMO it didn't limit the Warlock and Wizard encounter to a 1 on 1 duel in an arena or the Warlock just happening into the wizard and each trying to kill the other.

Not all posters are limiting the encounter to controlled conditions in an arena which would favor a prepared wizard able to choose his known spells.

With time and planning most PCs can take out a comparable level PC even a wizard although it tougher and requires more resources for some classes.

What habits does your PC wizard have in game? Does he buy spell components? Does he buy them from just anybody or does he have a few preferred suppliers?

Could your "Meow" trigger be learned in game?

Do you regularly change your trigger?

Your PC doesn't seem to have a homestead. What about other PCs who cannot cast Mord's mansion? Do they have personal staffs?

If a few pawns who didn't know who had sent them were sacrificed in attacks or a brawl errupted in the local tavern?

In your opinion if you were under the effects of a silence spell initially would it go off if you tried to say "Meow".

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 07:17 PM
I reread the OT by the OP and IMO it didn't limit the Warlock and Wizard encounter to a 1 on 1 duel in an arena or the Warlock just happening into the wizard and each trying to kill the other.

Not all posters are limiting the encounter to controlled conditions in an arena which would favor a prepared wizard able to choose his known spells.
What? Where did I say I was as well :smallconfused:
Most of my envisioning throughout this topic actually came in the form of a scary demonic warlocky guy jumping an old graybeard wizard who was peeing behind a bush. This wizard then fires his grappling hook into the trees and fires back some strange thing that takes out the scary man - forgetting his pants. Poor wizard. :smalleek: Aside, that's for the surprise round anyways.


With time and planning most PCs can take out a comparable level PC even a wizard although it tougher and requires more resources for some classes.
Well of course.


What habits does your PC wizard have in game? Does he buy spell components? Does he buy them from just anybody or does he have a few preferred suppliers?
I haven't played a wizard since AD&D hon. Most of what I have been saying comes from either sorcerer experience or reading and theorizing. Aside, I normally start campaigns with 3 spell component pouches and, aside for expensive material components, don't pay attention from there.


Could your "Meow" trigger be learned in game?
Meow was a joke, though given the tendency I have to orient my characters in some way with cat adoration - yes.


Do you regularly change your trigger?
No, unless I'm expecting something or have a special requirement.


Your PC doesn't seem to have a homestead. What about other PCs who cannot cast Mord's mansion? Do they have personal staffs?
Huh? They room in the MMM with me of course! Well... if I ever used it. I, actually, ban myself from using any "sleeping quarters" spells. Once again, I thought this was a theorizing test - not a "what people usually do" test. :smalleek:


If a few pawns who didn't know who had sent them were sacrificed in attacks or a brawl errupted in the local tavern?
What? :smallconfused:


In your opinion if you were under the effects of a silence spell initially would it go off if you tried to say "Meow".
Of course not! Though, of course, that silence spell would have to go off first. And really, that means someone just wasted a spell against a wizard. If you have the opportunity for that... just kill the wizard :smallconfused:
If I was silenced, my next contingency definately wouldn't be the "meow" trigger. I would probably use the "when I scrunch in my mouth to make fish lips" trigger.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-29, 07:25 PM
All of the above is options to the wizard as well. And how does one expect to find a wizard in a MMM - notably - lets also give the wizard mind blank.

Simply - the wizard has more options.
They both have 1 hit removal effects. The wizard has more room to move from there. All of the above, and more (more due to instantaneous and swift not holding to scroll form).

Well the MMM isn't Mindblanked or protected from divinations which I have always thought as a major weakness. Miracle or Wish would certainly take care of that because you would be divining for the wizard so and so's MMM portal not the wizard.

In game I would find a Mind blanked wizard like yours through his habits and support network of friends, family, colleagues, suppliers and adventuring buddies.

I agree wizards have more options but most defenses seem based around contingency, mindblank, foresight and ducking out into a MMM. Those defenses are not infallible.

How does a MMM interact with a Cloaked Forbiddance spell cast on the Portal or right next to the portal (1 inch away when the wizard leaves)? 12D6 damage with the double opposed alignment stepping outside the MMM with a Will save for half.

Dispel the MMM in the middle of the night. No extra spells for the wizard today since he didn't get his 8 hours of rest. Attack him with an overlapping multi attack. Mirror imaged Simulacrum with an Antimagic shell contingency spell or dimensional anchor set to go off when destroyed. Followed by another attack or attacks.

Solo
2007-08-29, 07:39 PM
Most of my envisioning throughout this topic actually came in the form of a scary demonic warlocky guy jumping an old graybeard wizard who was peeing behind a bush. This wizard then fires his grappling hook into the trees and fires back some strange thing that takes out the scary man - forgetting his pants. Poor wizard. Aside, that's for the surprise round anyways.

A warlock could craft a scroll of Power Word Kill or somesuch spell for the ambush, fyi.

13_CBS
2007-08-29, 07:41 PM
Isn't there some kind of Private Sanctum spell that prevents anyone, even the gods, from entering the place?

And you'll have to find the Sanctum first. It's immune to scrying and all, so, all a wizard needs to do is Teleport (or perhaps a quickened one) over to his sanctum, and he's got his 8 hours of rest pretty much guaranteed.

Reinboom
2007-08-29, 07:41 PM
The above assumes a wizard hunting though. Why can't the wizard be doing the opposite? Including, say, divining for the mindblanked warlock's clothes?

It's already obvious the a wizard isn't completely undefeatable.
However, to still go back to the core of this, the wizard still has more options overall to win a combat in more situations overall. Obviously, the wizard won't win all, but they will win more - that is without DM fiat.

Also, not all defense is in those spells. If there was someone out hunting wizards - I just wouldn't be one. It's pretty easy to use combinations of stealing clothes, using mind blank, and alter self, shape change, or perhaps even non magical basic disguise means to just not appear in any way a wizard. Or perhaps even get really creative - there's a lot of spells and options to do so with. Misdirection, Plane Shifts, an army to protect you that you obtained via Programmed Amnesia (a whole new level of broken there. :smalleek: )

-edit-
To all the constant UMD banter:
Uh... Level 1 Examplar/ Level 19 Samurai - using UMD with exemplar. I have all the power of a wizard !!... er...
Cleric 19/Level 1 Human Paragon... same...
Skill Knowledge feat... same....

It's pretty hard to work with that... since it's so.. so... available.

13_CBS
2007-08-29, 07:44 PM
Also remember that a Level 20 Wizard has INSANE intelligence. From a fluff perspective, at least (as invalid as it is), you're dealing with a superhuman genius intellect here. The warlock? Eh...IIRC he ends up having a very forceful personality. I'll take intelligence over that any day.

illathid
2007-08-29, 07:44 PM
See that's where Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) comes in handy. :smallwink:

EDIT: Ninja'd... Oh well, I least I included the link.

Solo
2007-08-29, 07:48 PM
Also remember that a Level 20 Wizard has INSANE intelligence. From a fluff perspective, at least (as invalid as it is), you're dealing with a superhuman genius intellect here. The warlock? Eh...IIRC he ends up having a very forceful personality. I'll take intelligence over that any day.
Warlocks don't necessarily need CHA, and indeed, my warlock's highest stat was INT instead of CHA.

13_CBS
2007-08-29, 07:58 PM
Wait, I haven't read up on warlocks in a while...so they don't really have a "primary spellcasting stat" like clerics, wizards, druids, and sorcs do?

In either case, though, I would think that a wizard would end up with a higher int score by level 20.

We need Emperor Tippy here...

Mr. Moogle
2007-08-29, 08:10 PM
No sorcerers can be Robin. Batman's lame sidekick.

/Sigh, all to true

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-29, 08:28 PM
Isn't there some kind of Private Sanctum spell that prevents anyone, even the gods, from entering the place?

And you'll have to find the Sanctum first. It's immune to scrying and all, so, all a wizard needs to do is Teleport (or perhaps a quickened one) over to his sanctum, and he's got his 8 hours of rest pretty much guaranteed.

I don't think so although Mord's Magnificent Mansion comes close.

Mord has several spells none that I am aware of work like you have posted.

There are teleport trace spells.

13_CBS
2007-08-29, 08:32 PM
Hmm...check the Private Sanctum link gain. By RAW, no one, not even the gods, can intrude upon your privacy in a Private Sanctum.

I wonder, though, if a teleportation tracking spell would lead someone to the Private Sanctum :smallconfused:

kme
2007-08-29, 08:40 PM
For those that are interested- wizard vs warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30840)
They are level 25 but it wouldn't be much different if they were 20.
(And yeah wizard was using celerity for the win, but still).

AKA_Bait
2007-08-30, 11:05 AM
For those that are interested- wizard vs warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30840)
They are level 25 but it wouldn't be much different if they were 20.
(And yeah wizard was using celerity for the win, but still).

Um... unless I've lost my mind that link leads to a thread where it's some duskblade multiclass and a figher...

Arakune
2007-08-30, 11:17 AM
if it's possible, the wizard cast a lot of permanency on himself with the most comom spells he usualy uses and always walk up with some standart "prevent-others-insta-will" gear, and when the wizard see he can't win he just teleport away, prepares for a little vengance and then owns the warlock.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-30, 11:34 AM
This breaks my mind...

...And the game. :-P

Why the hell would WoTC create another wizard-like class after wizards and sorcerors are so clearly the bane of all things balanced? :smalltongue:

I don't know where the Warlock is, I don't have that book, but It looks like half the people on the Oots forum play this class more than just occasionally. >_>

Argh. 4th Edition just can't come soon enough.
And yet it's also coming too soon. Funny, huh?

JaxGaret
2007-08-30, 11:43 AM
Um... unless I've lost my mind that link leads to a thread where it's some duskblade multiclass and a figher...

Then i regret to inform you that you have, indeed, lost your mind.

Frankly, i'm not at all surprised; this has been years in the offing.

Kaelik
2007-08-30, 11:43 AM
This breaks my mind...

...And the game. :-P

Why the hell would WoTC create another wizard-like class after wizards and sorcerors are so clearly the bane of all things balanced? :smalltongue:

I don't know where the Warlock is, I don't have that book, but It looks like half the people on the Oots forum play this class more than just occasionally. >_>

Argh. 4th Edition just can't come soon enough.
And yet it's also coming too soon. Funny, huh?

The reason people play the Warlock is because they can actually be not broken. Warlocks are pretty much just straight up weaker then Wizards. But they also contribute to the party instead of being the party. And they never force the party to wait for them to recharge. Warlocks are fun to play. Because Warlocks are not Wizards.

Duke of URL
2007-08-30, 11:45 AM
* If nobody gets a chance to prepare and both stumble across each other, whoever gets initiative wins. This will usually be the Warlock, since they're likely to have higher dex.


Also, given the lack of quality Warlock feats (other than Extra Invocation), they're more likely to burn a feat on Improved Initiative.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-30, 11:51 AM
Ah, that puts my mind to rest, Kaelik. ^_^

If there's anything I like about R.A. Salvatore, it's that none of the main characters are spellcasters... Wizards = deus ex machina. >_>

And deus ex machina always cramps a good plotline, and DMs aren't just running a game, they're also running a story.... most of the time. That true ressurection/wish suddenly makes the dramatic death of an NPC utterly meaningless now.

Wait... wizards are deus e- ...translate that literally...

Wizards are both the god and the machine! :smalleek:

JaxGaret
2007-08-30, 12:04 PM
The reason people play the Warlock is because they can actually be not broken. Warlocks are pretty much just straight up weaker then Wizards. But they also contribute to the party instead of being the party. And they never force the party to wait for them to recharge. Warlocks are fun to play. Because Warlocks are not Wizards.

QFT.

4e is going to feature classes closer to 3e warlocks than 3e wizards.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-30, 12:12 PM
The reason people play the Warlock is because they can actually be not broken. Warlocks are pretty much just straight up weaker then Wizards. But they also contribute to the party instead of being the party. And they never force the party to wait for them to recharge. Warlocks are fun to play. Because Warlocks are not Wizards.

I will point out here that this depends upon the style of Wizard you are playing. If you are playing a batman uber wizard then yeah. However, if you focused on crafting instead you could easily be a meaningful contributor to the party without being the party.

Sucrose
2007-08-30, 12:22 PM
I will point out here that this depends upon the style of Wizard you are playing. If you are playing a batman uber wizard then yeah. However, if you focused on crafting instead you could easily be a meaningful contributor to the party without being the party.

Alternatively, you could focus on battlefield control or buffing. Basically, anything that forces you to rely on your party for the most part will make you a valuable contributor rather than a one-wizard army. Your buffs may make up a fair degree of their power, but they still feel awesome as they carve up the opposition.

Ramza00
2007-08-30, 12:28 PM
The winner is who acts first.

With craft contigent spell, imbue item, and the FR feat that allows you to activate a contigent spell as a spell like ability with a standard action a warlock can compete with a wizard.

Problem is, he just can't compete forever due to wealth and xp problems.

Brianish
2007-08-30, 12:39 PM
However, soloing on an adventure, 20th level alone... obviously this depends on the adventure... I'm on the warlock though slightly more than half of the time. Really depends on how often Mr. Wizard will get a chance to safley replenish his spells.

This won't necessarily work either. A wizard's only gonna survive the first 2 levels alone about 10% of the time. Whereas a Warlock has an infinite energy blast and better armor and hitpoints.

Kaelik
2007-08-30, 12:59 PM
I will point out here that this depends upon the style of Wizard you are playing. If you are playing a batman uber wizard then yeah. However, if you focused on crafting instead you could easily be a meaningful contributor to the party without being the party.

Certainly. And when I play Wizards I try to come up with different concepts that make sure the party is important too. An extremely well optimized Warlock can make the party feel like crap too, it's just harder. Ultimately though, I like playing locks and wizards and I like designing both classes to let the other PCs be important too.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-30, 01:20 PM
This won't necessarily work either. A wizard's only gonna survive the first 2 levels alone about 10% of the time. Whereas a Warlock has an infinite energy blast and better armor and hitpoints.

Well, it doesn't really matter what happened during the first 19 levels, because this is only concerned with the 20th one.

Kaelik
2007-08-30, 01:41 PM
Well, it doesn't really matter what happened during the first 19 levels, because this is only concerned with the 20th one.

Except that that was a response to someone talking about how lvl 20 doesn't matter as much as who could solo an entire adventure arc all the way to reach 20.