A green dragon surrenders

[Angelalex242]

This creates an interesting quandary. What the hell do you do with a surrendering dragon? You can't rightly take the bigass creature into custody. It is LAWFUL Evil, so you can work with that, but...

Worst of all, it's a surrendering ANCIENT green dragon. It's too damn big to fit in a prison even it were willing to enter one.

Should the party ignore the surrender and finish it off?

Accept the surrender?

[Malifice]

This creates an interesting quandary. What the hell do you do with a surrendering dragon? You can't rightly take the bigass creature into custody. It is LAWFUL Evil, so you can work with that, but...

Worst of all, it's a surrendering ANCIENT green dragon. It's too damn big to fit in a prison even it were willing to enter one.

Should the party ignore the surrender and finish it off?

Accept the surrender?

Torture it to make it pay for its crimes forcing it to eat its own eggs and young (so they cant repeat the same evil). Then beating it repeatedly and slowly bleed it.

Then taking all it stuff and selling it for profit without giving a copper piece away for charity.

[hymer]

This being a green dragon, I would certainly expect a case of I Surrender, Suckers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ISurrenderSuckers) (warning, TVTropes link). That said, exactly how the party will handle it should be down to their personalities. Some genuinely good and wise people would accept the surrender knowing perfectly well that green dragons aren't likely to play nice. But between the chance to redeem someone and keeping the surrender process clean (so people will surrender in the future, too), they may say that it's a risk they will take with eyes open.
Anyone who happens to love dragons may decide this is their chance to get to know one better. Someone who is very vengeful may decide to use this chance to get the dragon into a situation it can't escape from, and then kill it.
And so on.

[JellyPooga]

Paranoid Response: "It's trying to trick us; kill it with fire!"

Crafty Response: "Hmm, maybe we can do a deal with it...there is that pesky Lich one town over, maybe this dragon can help."

Law-bringer Response: "We're gonna need bigger manacles."

Kobold Response: "Err...you want to what, your most sublime supremeness?"

Dragonborn Response: "Chill out bro, don't sweat it. Let's grab a drink, or a cow, or whatever it is you consume to relax."

[Quoz]

I had this happen with a white dragon in 4e. I was a kobold, champion of Bahamut. While the rest of the party was arguing about kill or let go, I snuck in and tried to bargain.

"One of my party is a servant to the dragon god( I was intentionally unspecific about which dragon god, or that I was in fast referring to myself). If you swear by all of the dragon gods to serve us for one month, we will see you free after"

GM decided this was quite a stretch but the setup was good enough to give it a small chance. So he gave the dragon a d100 on the opposed roll instead of a d20.... and rolled a natural 1.

[Cespenar]

Since you're able to take down an Ancient Dragon, why not use the following high level spells:

-Imprisonment
-Wish for a perma alignment change
-Plane Shift to a "tough" plane

[Umbranar]

You better have a good way to restrain it and keep it restrained because someone with knowledge of dragons should know that the Green ones are the schemers. It might surrender to save its hide for now but down the path it will try and come up with an elaborate plan (it has time on its side being a dragon and all) to overthrow and/or manipulate whoever is in charge of said prison.

[Unoriginal]

It's possible to restrain an ancient dragon, but what are the terms of the surrender?

A military leader giving up the hostilies isn't the same as a bank robber giving themselves up to the police, even if they're both surrender.

[Gungor]

Require it to submit to True Polymorph until it is permanently a humanoid. If you’re feeling generous, let it pick which kind. Then lock it up.

[EvilAnagram]

Torture it to make it pay for its crimes forcing it to eat its own eggs and young (so they cant repeat the same evil). Then beating it repeatedly and slowly bleed it.

Then taking all it stuff and selling it for profit without giving a copper piece away for charity.

Malifice makes a good point. The only action with a semblance of morality to it is to accept its surrender.

[CharonsHelper]

Do you 100% know that it's committed murder? Then accept the surrender and then execute it (as painlessly as possible) for its crimes. Easy Peasy.

This isn't a world with modern courts - and definitely not ones which can handle dealing with dragons.

[SkylarkR6]

Assuming the dragon isn't a spellcaster...
Cast Geas on it at 7th level, requiring it to accept the spell as part of it's surrender. Command it to do no harm and to use it's ass breath to melt garbage and sewage in your home City for a year. Bonus points if you can convince the city and the dragon that this could be a long term sporadic service for extra gold/elves lying around

[PopeLinus1]

Assuming the dragon isn't a spellcaster...
Cast Geas on it at 7th level, requiring it to accept the spell as part of it's surrender. Command it to do no harm and to use it's ass breath to melt garbage and sewage in your home City for a year. Bonus points if you can convince the city and the dragon that this could be a long term sporadic service for extra gold/elves lying around

Ho boy, that’s going to be an interesting proposal

[EvilAnagram]

Do you 100% know that it's committed murder? Then accept the surrender and then execute it (as painlessly as possible) for its crimes. Easy Peasy.

This isn't a world with modern courts - and definitely not ones which can handle dealing with dragons.

It has not been established that either this world lacks a judicial system or that the party is legally empowered to carry out summary executions.

[CharonsHelper]

It has not been established that either this world lacks a judicial system or that the party is legally empowered to carry out summary executions.

Fair enough - I was making some setting assumptions, though they are pretty standard D&D assumptions outside of cities (where you are unlikely to find an ancient green dragon).

But - if there is no robust judicial system with jurisdiction over where the dragon currently is - would you either be able to or need to be "legally empowered"?

[Bobbyjackcorn]

I think it really depends on group resources. If the group has spellcasters, magic definitely helps these sorts of things.
If for whatever reason magic isn't an option, I'd imagine by the time they've gotten to this point, the party is buddy buddy with at least one NPC with a huge vault, a cave, a pocket dimension, etc that could help. Without being given the specifics of what they have in the game to deal with this, I'm not sure what extent of advice would be of use.
Failing that, if there isn't a place to put it, yeah man, just kill it. Can't surrender to someone who has no means of accepting your surrender.

[EvilAnagram]

Fair enough - I was making some setting assumptions, though they are pretty standard D&D assumptions outside of cities (where you are unlikely to find an ancient green dragon).

But - if there is no robust judicial system with jurisdiction over where the dragon currently is - would you either be able to or need to be "legally empowered"?

Well, if you're outside the bounds of civilization, you're necessarily not legally empowered to do anything. That said, if it's nowhere near civilization, why are you fighting it?

Let's assume you do fight it, and you feel it's dangerous enough to warrant execution. As someone who has murdered a helpless captive in the wild, would you have any moral qualms with the group's vengeance paladin executing you as you slept? I mean, at the level you have to be to take on an ancient dragon, you're far too dangerous for courts to handle.

[CharonsHelper]

...As someone who has murdered a helpless captive in the wild

Except you didn't murder anyone. You executed them. I've played paladins that have done this occasionally.

Plus - I hardly think that anyone can call an ancient dragon helpless.

[Millface]

I second the idea of forcing it to commit to a True Polymorph. To a dragon, forever changing into a lesser being is cruel and unusual punishment and you'd sniff out REAL quick if they actually intend to surrender. I'd guess most would rather die, greens might go with it though on the off chance that someday they'd scheme themselves back to dragonhood and exact revenge.

He'd pick elf, obviously, to give himself time to serve his 80 years and still have plenty of life left with which to either study and learn or find and buy a true polymorph back to Green Dragon.

[Unoriginal]

True Polymorph is still dispelled if your new form reach 0 HP.

[EvilAnagram]

Except you didn't murder anyone. You executed them.

Plus - I hardly think that anyone can call an ancient dragon helpless.

Right, because killing someone without due process in the wilderness after they have thrown themselves at your mercy is fine as long as you call it an execution. Totally not murder at all. That's why bandits who kill travellers in the forest and take their valuables are renowned for bringing justice to untamed lands. You know, as long as they shout, "It's an execution," when they cut a merchant's throat.

So you'd be good with that Paldin's choices, right? After all, it's not murder. It's an execution.

[EvilAnagram]

True Polymorph is still dispelled if your new form reach 0 HP.

Is that the case? I thought once it became permanent, it was no longer a spell. In other words, no dispelling and no reverting.

[Willie the Duck]

Do you 100% know that it's committed murder? Then accept the surrender and then execute it (as painlessly as possible) for its crimes. Easy Peasy.

This isn't a world with modern courts - and definitely not ones which can handle dealing with dragons.


Fair enough - I was making some setting assumptions, though they are pretty standard D&D assumptions outside of cities (where you are unlikely to find an ancient green dragon).

But - if there is no robust judicial system with jurisdiction over where the dragon currently is - would you either be able to or need to be "legally empowered"?

Honestly, I would expect this world to be more prepared in the "handle dealing with dragons" department than I would expect it to have modern courts and the like. In a world where dozen-yard+ long flying lizards are a genuine thing, people (maybe not every village and hamlet, but every kingdom) is probably going to have a 'what to do if one of these things runs amok' in whatever passes for action plans. Whether this includes anything resembling dragon-sized manacles or cages or prisons depends entirely upon how likely they ever thought they'd take one alive.

One thing, however, that medieval societies absolutely did have was strong systems of jurisdiction and notions of who was "legally empowered" to do what, and where. A given land might be contested, or the dominant jurisdiction be more "I'm the only warlord in the area with the manpower to enforce my will, so I am the de facto jurisdiction arbiter of the area" than we're used to, but it existed. Exactly how these jurisdictions interact with nomadic bands of adventurers, often with power commensurate with small armies, is something that the D&D game as a whole has never really settled.

[CharonsHelper]

Right, because killing someone without due process in the wilderness after they have thrown themselves at your mercy is fine as long as you call it an execution. Totally not murder at all.

Again - you're assuming a modern judicial system.


That's why bandits who kill travellers in the forest and take their valuables are renowned for bringing justice to untamed lands. You know, as long as they shout, "It's an execution," when they cut a merchant's throat.

Not unless they have incontrovertible evidence that the merchant is a serial killer. Which - seems unlikely.

But doing that with robbery is totally the reason that Robin Hood is considered one of the good guys.


So you'd be good with that Paldin's choices, right? After all, it's not murder. It's an execution.

No - killing the dragon wasn't murder in the first place - so no execution is justified.

[EvilAnagram]

Again - you're assuming a modern judicial system.
No, I'm not. The process could be a local warlord capriciously saying, "Kill it," or, "Hard labor," but it would still be the local process.



Not unless they have incontrovertible evidence that the merchant is a serial killer. Which - seems unlikely.

But doing that with robbery is totally the reason that Robin Hood is considered one of the good guys.
But we haven't established that the green dragon is a serial killer. Apparently, the belief that he deserves it is enough to warrant summary execution, so if that bandit thinks commerce is morally wrong, then he's totally justified in "executing" merchants, right?



No - killing the dragon wasn't murder in the first place - so no execution is justified.
But I thought that believing an execution is justified is justification? If the paladin believes you shouldn't have killed it, then he's justified in executing you, right?

[CharonsHelper]

But we haven't established that the green dragon is a serial killer. Apparently, the belief that he deserves it is enough to warrant summary execution, so if that bandit thinks commerce is morally wrong, then he's totally justified in "executing" merchants, right?


Please read my initial posting which you responded to.


Do you 100% know that it's committed murder? Then accept the surrender and then execute it (as painlessly as possible) for its crimes.

If you missed that - I can see that we've been talking past one another.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is that the case? I thought once it became permanent, it was no longer a spell. In other words, no dispelling and no reverting. It was in the original PHB. It has since been errata'd, see the WoTC site and sixth printing. (We first saw the rewrite in the SRD and it got carried over to an errata).

My suggestion: True Polymorph, concentrated upon for an hour, and then a wish to make that spell permanent such that it does not revert when dead/dispelled.
Second Suggestion: Divine Intervention request with the same conditions.

Form to polymorph into: a milk cow. That way at least it is able to do some good, which is produce milk, and maybe some baby cows.

@EvilAnagram: a Paladin of the Crown could easily be given the authority to dispense justice by the King in certain cases. Lawful execution in that case fits almost like a glove. (Somewhat like James Bond License to Kill, or the old Wanted, dead or alive bounties ...)

[TheYell]

Well, if you're outside the bounds of civilization, you're necessarily not legally empowered to do anything.

That's contrary to the history of frontier justice in *our* country. If you're beyond the bounds of civilization you're empowered to bring law to the lawless, and answer for it when you get back to civilization.

IF you've got some means to subdue a green dragon, then use them. IF NOT, sucks to be a green dragon.

[KorvinStarmast]

IF you've got some means to subdue a green dragon, then use them. IF NOT, sucks to be a green dragon. Problem is, the subdual of dragons was taken out of the game some editions ago. :smallannoyed:

[Willie the Duck]

Problem is, the subdual of dragons was taken out of the game some editions ago. :smallannoyed:

You can choose to knock them out instead of kill them when you drop them with melee, just like anyone else, right? What exactly is missing that is needed?

After that, keep them from long resting, and one-arrow's strike from dropping (and dying in the fall) if they try to fly away, until you can scrape together enough rope to hold them until manacles or a cage can be fashioned.

The long term of what-to-do-with-them seems like the more challenging question.

[Bobbyjackcorn]

@EvilAnagram It's a game man, just ask yourself if thinking this far into the moral ramifications of killing imaginary, evil scaleyboi's is fun.

[EvilAnagram]

Please read my initial posting which you responded to.



If you missed that - I can see that we've been talking past one another.

I did forget that bit, but we're still dealing with belief. You believe that the green dragon deserves death for its crime, so you believe you're justified in executing it. If the paladin does not believe it deserved death for its crimes, or he believed that only an authority had the right to make that call, then by your reasoning you should be fine with his executing you for unlawful slaying. At the very least, he should imprison you.


That's contrary to the history of frontier justice in *our* country. If you're beyond the bounds of civilization you're empowered to bring law to the lawless, and answer for it when you get back to civilization.
That's absolutely not true. Assuming you mean American, or at least Western civilization, people were given charters by the government to settle lands in an effort to conquer that land. People were not empowered to enforce American law in areas not claimed by the United States. At worst, people were charged by the United States with the genocide of civilizations already living in desirable locations. In those instances, they were not being asked to "bring law to the lawless," but rather to murder people en masse.


@EvilAnagram It's a game man, just ask yourself if thinking this far into the moral ramifications of killing imaginary, evil scaleyboi's is fun.
I assure you, I'm having a fantastic time.

[EvilAnagram]

It was in the original PHB. It has since been errata'd, see the WoTC site and sixth printing. (We first saw the rewrite in the SRD and it got carried over to an errata).

My suggestion: True Polymorph, concentrated upon for an hour, and then a wish to make that spell permanent such that it does not revert when dead/dispelled.
Second Suggestion: Divine Intervention request with the same conditions.

Form to polymorph into: a milk cow. That way at least it is able to do some good, which is produce milk, and maybe some baby cows.

@EvilAnagram: a Paladin of the Crown could easily be given the authority to dispense justice by the King in certain cases. Lawful execution in that case fits almost like a glove. (Somewhat like James Bond License to Kill, or the old Wanted, dead or alive bounties ...)

Interesting!

And you're right about the Paladin of the Crown. In fact, any PC charged with dispensing justice has the lawful right to do so within their jurisdiction, but I don't believe that is the case in the OP.

[Unoriginal]

Would also be good to know what crimes this Green Dragon has commited. You know, before padding any judgement.

[Angelalex242]

Okay: Few interesting points here.

A: The green dragon just nuked a village full of elves with its breath weapon before we arrived. There were 17 survivors (The gm rolled a d20, the forces of good got lucky when he happened to roll high)

B: The party is actually only 9th level. They won because an adult silver dragon was helping. The silver dragon came down on the side of sparing the green's life, so we did, hence the question 'now what?' So we've only got 4th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells available (party cleric is Pal 2/Clr 5) At least everyone thought to cast a lot of protection from poison spells first.

C: This is part of Rise of Tiamat. A Bigger Fish to Fry is coming...

[TheYell]

That's absolutely not true. Assuming you mean American, or at least Western civilization, people were given charters by the government to settle lands in an effort to conquer that land.

That is not correct. Settlers, in organized settlements, or on wagon trains, voted themselves emergency judicial powers to punish lawbreakers in the absence of appointed regular authority. Google "Vigilance Committee". They had no charter until after they got set up. The West was not organized and then developed. It was developed, and then organized.

And they weren't shy about the final punishment. That might mean forcing a killer to leave the wagon train with no food, or it might mean a hanging, but the effect was lethal and it was approved upon return to civilization so long as it was done openly and fairly.

Without political comment, the notion that you are not empowered to enforce laws in the absence of cops is a strictly modern notion, the organized authority taking the view that regular law enforcement is within reach at all times. In pioneer days, it was a matter of weeks or months away.

[EvilAnagram]

Okay: Few interesting points here.

A: The green dragon just nuked a village full of elves with its breath weapon before we arrived. There were 17 survivors (The gm rolled a d20, the forces of good got lucky when he happened to roll high)

B: The party is actually only 9th level. They won because an adult silver dragon was helping. The silver dragon came down on the side of sparing the green's life, so we did, hence the question 'now what?' So we've only got 4th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells available (party cleric is Pal 2/Clr 5) At least everyone thought to cast a lot of protection from poison spells first.

C: This is part of Rise of Tiamat. A Bigger Fish to Fry is coming...

Consult the silver dragon. He should be able to help.

[TheYell]

Hand it over to the silver dragon then.

[Willie the Duck]

A: The green dragon just nuked a village full of elves with its breath weapon before we arrived. There were 17 survivors (The gm rolled a d20, the forces of good got lucky when he happened to roll high)

Okay, so no need to verify that the green dragon is a threat to life and limb and such if left to their own devices.


B: The party is actually only 9th level. They won because an adult silver dragon was helping. The silver dragon came down on the side of sparing the green's life, so we did, hence the question 'now what?' So we've only got 4th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells available (party cleric is Pal 2/Clr 5) At least everyone thought to cast a lot of protection from poison spells first.

Honestly, if I were a character in the party, I would look to the silver dragon and say, "okay, I'm assuming you have some experience in this sparing your mortal enemies department*, how exactly are we going to do that?"
*yes, I know, red dragons are a silver's mortal enemies, I'm guessing my character doesn't know that


C: This is part of Rise of Tiamat. A Bigger Fish to Fry is coming...

That could really go either way, depending upon how easy it is to subdue them. If the are small fry, lock them up and hand the key (or equivalent) over to the local authorities to deal with. Or, if people are dying by the minute, maybe you don't care about making sure the (you just saw and confirmed) murderer gets their day in court before the execution.

[CharonsHelper]

I did forget that bit, but we're still dealing with belief. You believe that the green dragon deserves death for its crime, so you believe you're justified in executing it. If the paladin does not believe it deserved death for its crimes, or he believed that only an authority had the right to make that call, then by your reasoning you should be fine with his executing you for unlawful slaying. At the very least, he should imprison you.


That's opening the can or moral relativism - and whatever you believe is true IRL - D&D very obviously has absolute morality. (I've of the opinion IRL there being absolute morality but we have an imperfect knowledge of it - but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)

[TheYell]

I object to the view that objective morality precludes frontier justice.

The paladin might think he's forbidden to carry justice into the wilderness.

He might take the view that it's the personal prerogative of a great lord, and he has to ask that lord for justice. A thoroughly medieval view.

He might take the view that he's empowered to hold court over evildoers by moral right, like John Wayne.

I believe a paladin is required to have a moral worldview.

I just don't think you can second-guess it in the name of objective Right.

[CharonsHelper]

I object to the view that objective morality precludes frontier justice.

I was actually arguing for the opposite.

[EvilAnagram]

That's opening the can or moral relativism - and whatever you believe is true IRL - D&D very obviously has absolute morality. (I've of the opinion IRL there being absolute morality but we have an imperfect knowledge of it - but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)
So, would you then say your argument is that under an absolute moral system, you have the moral right to kill those you believe guilty of crimes under any circumstances?


I object to the view that objective morality precludes frontier justice.

The paladin might think he's forbidden to carry justice into the wilderness.

He might take the view that it's the personal prerogative of a great lord, and he has to ask that lord for justice. A thoroughly medieval view.

He might take the view that he's empowered to hold court over evildoers by moral right, like John Wayne.

I believe a paladin is required to have a moral worldview.

I just don't think you can second-guess it in the name of objective Right.
So characters do not have the right to second guess the morality of the actions of other PCs?

[ProsecutorGodot]

True Polymorph is still dispelled if your new form reach 0 HP.


Is that the case? I thought once it became permanent, it was no longer a spell. In other words, no dispelling and no reverting.

It says that if the transformation becomes permanent that it can still be dispelled, but how it's read leads me to believe that it "reverting" to it's old form isn't the same as "dispelling" it's new permanent form.

If it were the case that a permanent duration polymorph would simply fail when the creature is reduced to zero then there would be no need to make a distinction between the two effects.

There is a ruling on this by Mike Mearls (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/520355269272817664?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2014%2F1 0%2F11%2Fpermanent-true-polymorph%2F)

But more recently we have this (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/948438570355720197?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F0 2%2F26%2Fonce-a-true-polymorph-spell-is-made-permanent-does-reducing-to-0hp-still-cause-the-creature-to-revert-to-its-original-form%2F) ruling by JC that says the correct way to read the spell is that the effect is dispelled by a creature falling to zero hit points because the magic cannot effect a creature with zero hit points.

I personally am confused with the recent ruling since the last part saying that it can't affect a shape changer or a creature with zero hit points seemed more like a casting restriction than a restriction on the ongoing effects (how standard polymorph is read) but I don't make the rules.

[Joe the Rat]

The downside of taking forever to write a post. Probably simplest to finish it off, but if you are keen to other options...


This creates an interesting quandary. What the hell do you do with a surrendering dragon? You can't rightly take the bigass creature into custody. It is LAWFUL Evil, so you can work with that, but...

Worst of all, it's a surrendering ANCIENT green dragon. It's too damn big to fit in a prison even it were willing to enter one.

Should the party ignore the surrender and finish it off?

Accept the surrender?

Coming back to this, why are you fighting the dragon in the first place? Because that kind of determines a LOT about motives and needs. Unless you'd replied somewhere and I'd missed, there's not a lot to work with. Assuming for the moment that your mission was not "Slay this dragon" and whatever Honorable souls in your party are not deeply draxist (dragon-racist)...

Green Dragons are smart, cunning, dangerous... and value their own survival. You have effectively shown your ability to do it grievous harm. Good. Now show it that you can be a useful ally. Talk. Get it talking. Dragons, especially Greens, like to talk. Be courteous. Show that you have the power to talk as a rival, but the respect for the inherent majesty and power (and wisdom from its long life, and its inhuman cunning), and that you are talking as much to protect your lives as you are the dragon's. Greens love feeling superior.

Find out why it is doing whatever it is that motivated you to go attack it, and establish an agreement to resolve this. If it is a threat to the land, request it to move. If it is holding a treasure you seek, ask for it. If it is about justice for murder and mayhem... establish the weregild price and extract that from the hoard WITH an agreement to no longer do the bad thing. (Oh yes, don't forget paying someone in restitution for killing their kin was an actual thing. Incarceration was the rarity: punishments were more likely material, corporal, or capital.) Heck, find out what the dragon thinks is an appropriate response - and that since "kill the offender" is likely the first choice, how you are being respectful and noble in offering it to pay a lesser cost.

Of course, all of this could bite your children in the ass.

See, Green dragons share a trait with the crocodiles with whom they share skull morphology. They are patient. They will make concessions, or avoid conflicts over desired things, and wait for a better opportunity. If they pay a small cost now, they can wait for a greater benefit later. Unfortunately, this means that coming back for revenge a century down the line and dropping ten times the havoc upon the land, or worse your families is a real possibility. But if you can make not being a future calamity in the dragon's long term interests, It is a powerful asset. Force the eviction, but find or secure a better lair for it. Take the needed treasures, but find out what it really wants instead. Make it clear that long-term cooperation will better serve its interests than any sort of delayed revenge.


And once you are into negotiations, its breath weapon will be recharged and legendary actions recovered so it can take another go at reducing you adventurers to quivering, hemorrhaging meat and/or making an escape. What, you thought I was on your side? If I were, I would have told you to extract a non-aggression pact or require it to be muzzled before negotiations. Choice wording and playing to assumptions is how you can get the parties to agree to talk without necessarily taking violence off the table.

[mephnick]

Just kill it. There's never a good reason to keep a Green Dragon around.

For the record I'd never have an Ancient Dragon surrender to anyone. I feel they'd be far too proud and would rather die fighting or, in the instance of a Green Dragon, die getting away.

[Unoriginal]

Okay: Few interesting points here.

A: The green dragon just nuked a village full of elves with its breath weapon before we arrived. There were 17 survivors (The gm rolled a d20, the forces of good got lucky when he happened to roll high)

B: The party is actually only 9th level. They won because an adult silver dragon was helping. The silver dragon came down on the side of sparing the green's life, so we did, hence the question 'now what?' So we've only got 4th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells available (party cleric is Pal 2/Clr 5) At least everyone thought to cast a lot of protection from poison spells first.

C: This is part of Rise of Tiamat. A Bigger Fish to Fry is coming...

What argument is the Green Dragon offering to justify sparing their life?

They have proven to be a threat, are a mass murderer, can't be trusted to not try to backstab the PCs and allies, and since it's Rise of Tiamat they won't do anything that can possibly hinder the BBEG since the Green Dragon doesn't want to be tortured for all eternity by a pissed off dragon goddess.

So, why spare the dragon? Because they asked?

[Angelalex242]

What argument is the Green Dragon offering to justify sparing their life?

They have proven to be a threat, are a mass murderer, can't be trusted to not try to backstab the PCs and allies, and since it's Rise of Tiamat they won't do anything that can possibly hinder the BBEG since the Green Dragon doesn't want to be tortured for all eternity by a pissed off dragon goddess.

So, why spare the dragon? Because they asked?

The session ended before we negotiated terms of surrender, or had a good reason given to us why we would spare the green's life. In fact, the vengeance paladin in the party was all for coup de grasing the dragon. My Ancients Paladin was more asking the Silver, "But how the hell do we take something this powerful into custody?" The Silver recommended Dimensional Shackles, except we'd need to fly way the hell off to fire giants to get such shackles, and the green dragon would be free to "I surrender, suckers" and kill people by the time we got back with them.

[smcmike]

Unless you view the prospect of a captive green dragon as a fun challenge, just kill it.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can choose to knock them out instead of kill them when you drop them with melee, just like anyone else, right? What exactly is missing that is needed?
Good point, and I agree, except that the subdual of dragons is a whole lot more complicated than that as originally implemented.


The long term of what-to-do-with-them seems like the more challenging question. That is what subdual of dragons was all about in the first place. :smallwink:
From Monsters and Treasures, page 12 and 13, 1974, TSR.

Subduing Dragons: Any attack may be to subdue rather than to kill, but this intent must be announced before melee begins. When intent to subdue is announced hits scored upon the Dragon are counted as subduing rather than killing points. Each round of melee the number of points scored in hits is ratioed over the total number the Dragon has (hit point total), the hits obtained being stated as a percentile
of the total possible, i.e. 12%, 67%, etc. The percentile dice are then rolled to determine if the Dragon has been subdued. A roll equal to or less than the percentage of hits already obtained means the Dragon is subdued.

Value of Subdued Dragons: Subdued Dragons can be sold on the open market (going out of existence in the game) for from 500 to 1,000 Gold Pieces per hit point it can take. Thus, the Red Dragon in the above example would be worth from 33,000 to 66,000 Gold Pieces. Offers are determined by the referee merely by rolling a six-sided die to see if the offer will be 500 (die 1) 600 (die 2), etc. Gold Pieces. Of course the character or characters who subdued the Dragon could keep it in their own service or sell it to other players for whatever they could get.
Length of Subdual: A subdued Dragon will remain in that state until such time as an opportunity presents itself to escape or kill its master presents itself, but as long as the master is in a commanding position it will not attempt either course.
Since that time, Dragons have been more thoroughly thought through and become far more powerful (the articles in Dragon magazine in the 70's and 80, and then 2e, went a long way to making them more awesome) ... so subdual as a mechanic went away since it didn't fit the fiction any more.


Final point: if the heroes don't slay the dragon, then anyone who is subject to the dragon's further depredations will have a legitimate bone to pick with those PC's.

Why were the PC's fighting this dragon in the first place?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Why were the PC's fighting this dragon in the first place?

That does seem to be the core of the question. If the point was to make the dragon release the princess, that's easy. If the point was to make the dragon stop eating villagers, well, that's a bit harder. (EDIT: Okay, that actually seems to be it. The question was already answered.) You'd have to trust it on its word, basically, and it would still go on to eat someone else's villagers. If the dragon was an actual antagonist, with its own plans and schemes in direct opposition of the PC's, that could become tricky. But at least there are some parts of the whole thing you can attend to. Have the dragon confess to the kobolds that he's not a god, have him dismantle his giant expensive volcano lair trap, things like that.

Locking it up or punishing it in any way which does not require the cooperation of the dragon is going to be hard, unless you baleful polymorph is or something.

Okay, new question: can you baleful polymorph it? Call it the Bloodfeast punishment. 50 years in a dungeon as a small lizard.

And since lizards don't have a racial leaning towards evil, you might be able to use that time to reeducate it at the most basic level.

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, new question: can you baleful polymorph it? Call it the Bloodfeast punishment. 50 years in a dungeon as a small lizard.50 years later, the people who die when the dragon reverts will not thank you.

Phrase for this is "Kicking the Can Down the Road." :smallbiggrin:

[Envyus]

I am assuming that if a Dragon Surrenders it's expecting to just hand over some treasure then be expected leave. I don't think the thought of going to prison has crossed it's mind or being the parties prisoner.


Like when a dragon surrenders I am assuming it's more or less apologizing for the fight and giving away some of it's treasure to spare it's life. Then it's going to leave the area.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Maybe we're not metagaming enough...

If the party was ever looking at a total wipeout and surrendered to the king coming to arrest them, what kind of punishments would the DM force on them? This is your chance to beat him at his own game. :smallamused:

[Willie the Duck]

That is what subdual of dragons was all about in the first place. :smallwink:
From Monsters and Treasures, page 12 and 13, 1974, TSR.

Yes, I have the same. My point is that this: "Length of Subdual: A subdued Dragon will remain in that state until such time as an opportunity presents itself to escape or kill its master presents itself, but as long as the master is in a commanding position it will not attempt either course."

basically says what I mean. What do you do with the thing, and how do you keep it from running amok, if it's going to do so the instant you leave a commanding position (so, show weakness, most likely)



Since that time, Dragons have been more thoroughly thought through and become far more powerful (the articles in Dragon magazine in the 70's and 80, and then 2e, went a long way to making them more awesome) ... so subdual as a mechanic went away since it didn't fit the fiction any more.

It also was a completely separate, dragon specific mechanism for encounter resolution. So multiple rule sets to keep track of and try to play nice together. I can see why it was not kept up.

[EvilAnagram]

50 years later, the people who die when the dragon reverts will not thank you.

Phrase for this is "Kicking the Can Down the Road." :smallbiggrin:

This is a fantasy world. Kicking the can down the road is the principle means of solving problems. How else would future adventurers have anything to do?

[Unoriginal]

Maybe we're not metagaming enough...

If the party was ever looking at a total wipeout and surrendered to the king coming to arrest them, what kind of punishments would the DM force on them? This is your chance to beat him at his own game. :smallamused:

Well, depends how chill is the King


https://youtu.be/X8CkSw4hVog

[denthor]

The green is being protected by a silver at this point. My thoughts are let it live but not on this plane.

If you have access to plane shift. And you good send it to a mildly chaotically and good aligned plane. No need to send it to a Lawful Evil plane where it can pledge itself then follow orders to come back.

If your mostly neutral well. Send it to a heavy chaotic and heavy good plane.

[EvilAnagram]

The green is being protected by a silver at this point. My thoughts are let it live but not on this plane.

If you have access to plane shift. And you good send it to a mildly chaotically and good aligned plane. No need to send it to a Lawful Evil plane where it can pledge itself then follow orders to come back.

If your mostly neutral well. Send it to a heavy chaotic and heavy good plane.

The problem with that is they would need a tuning fork attuned to one of those planes. That's a quest in and of itself, and the dragon needs handling.

[Angelalex242]

This is the Rise of Tiamat adventure. If I sent it to Avernus, it basically just pops in front of Tiamat...having just lost a fight to humans and a silver. The dragon goddess might not be especially forgiving of that...

[mephnick]

This is the Rise of Tiamat adventure. If I sent it to Avernus, it basically just pops in front of Tiamat...having just lost a fight to humans and a silver. The dragon goddess might not be especially forgiving of that...

What's she gonna do? Destroy the world more?

[Tanarii]

All I know is what my players did: convince it to cast Plant Growth regularly on their crops, and then open a distribution network to sell the illegal product throughout the realm, providing the dragon with a significant kickback to keep it happy.

(This was in 2e, not 5e. But IMO Plant Growth is still a fitting spell for a Green Dragon to know.)

[Tvtyrant]

This creates an interesting quandary. What the hell do you do with a surrendering dragon? You can't rightly take the bigass creature into custody. It is LAWFUL Evil, so you can work with that, but...

Worst of all, it's a surrendering ANCIENT green dragon. It's too damn big to fit in a prison even it were willing to enter one.

Should the party ignore the surrender and finish it off?

Accept the surrender?

Accept the surrender and have it agree to either be planeshifted elsewhere or serve a life sentence as the party bus/brute. Then roleplay the dragon and one of the PCs falling in love, redeeming the dragon as it learns to love others as it loves itself.

Bonus points if the PC is the wizard so they can polymorph into compatible bodies.

Planeshifting is boring but effective. "You live in Arborea now, to hunt and be hunted for the length of your life."

[Unoriginal]

This is the Rise of Tiamat adventure. If I sent it to Avernus, it basically just pops in front of Tiamat...having just lost a fight to humans and a silver. The dragon goddess might not be especially forgiving of that...

Sure she would. The dragon is still an Ancient one, and they have tons of info on the party and the silver dragon, who are trying to hinder her plans. And now she can have seers and the like look to know even more stuff. Plus now Tiamat can send the dragon anywhere to further her agenda.

Gotta remember Tiamat is a genius beyond the scope of humanoids.



What's she gonna do? Destroy the world more?

She doesn't really want to destroy the world, she mainly wants to escape from Avernus.

[Angelalex242]

Well, could always plainshift it to the Abyss somewhere. Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil do NOT get along, and Tiamat can't help the Green there...

[Tvtyrant]

Well, could always plainshift it to the Abyss somewhere. Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil do NOT get along, and Tiamat can't help the Green there...

Isn't just another way of killing it? I think there are a number of places it could be sent that won't result in its death that would get rid of it (carceri, elemental plane of ooze, etc.)

[Angelalex242]

The real problem, though, is that we've only got 4th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells. Which does not include plane shift. What can we do within our bounds?

Looks like Gaes is an option, but only for 30 days of buying time...

[TheYell]

Maybe put a Geas on it to surrender to a castle for judgment by a lord?

[Angelalex242]

Maybe put a Geas on it to surrender to a castle for judgment by a lord?

I suppose. It killed Elves, so I could send it to the elven king for judgment. Of course, I've gotta warn the king it's only a 30 day Gaes and attempting to kill the dragon breaks it, so he'd better come up with something nonlethal. Like Plane Shift.

[EvilAnagram]

Maybe put a Geas on it to surrender to a castle for judgment by a lord?

That's pretty solid.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Geas is all well and good, but considering it's an ancient green dragon and the only thing stopping it from working in opposition to you is a tiny 5d10 psychic damage once per day it might catch on fairly quick that the Geas doesn't actually hamper it so much.

Sure it can't attack the person who put the Geas on it but since it's more or less guaranteed to survive the damage it can then do what it likes for the day.

Whatever judgement you have it go for would have to happen FAST before it has any time to recover.

[Tvtyrant]

The real problem, though, is that we've only got 4th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells. Which does not include plane shift. What can we do within our bounds?

Looks like Gaes is an option, but only for 30 days of buying time...

Scroll would work if it is "willing."

Sounds like the DM intends for this to go wrong if you are that low a level, so I say role for seduction.

[Willie the Duck]

Sounds like the DM intends for this to go wrong if you are that low a level, so I say role for seduction.

Okay, now that was funny.

I don't know about the DM wanting this to go wrong, but it does sound like he expects a solution outside of your character mechanical abilities. I don't know if that means s/he hopes you get creative or do a good job of talking the dragon into something or just wants to watch you squirm while you decide to kill a surrendered foe or what the thinking is. Certainly doesn't sound like the solution is on the spells-available list.

[Honest Tiefling]

Do you 100% know that it's committed murder? Then accept the surrender and then execute it (as painlessly as possible) for its crimes. Easy Peasy.

This isn't a world with modern courts - and definitely not ones which can handle dealing with dragons.

I would lean to this, if the Silver cannot help in restraining the dragon. Lawful Evil does not mean honorable, trustworthy, or honest and is no less dangerous than Chaotic Evil. And if the Silver is making decisions for the party, well, it can bloody well help fix the consequences.


Assuming the dragon isn't a spellcaster...
Cast Geas on it at 7th level, requiring it to accept the spell as part of it's surrender. Command it to do no harm and to use it's ass breath to melt garbage and sewage in your home City for a year. Bonus points if you can convince the city and the dragon that this could be a long term sporadic service for extra gold/elves lying around

Removing useless monkies isn't harming the world, it's helping! Those things destroy the environment anyway. Yeah, I wouldn't suggest this unless you have an ironclad geas and a guardian (like the Silver). It could also fly off occasionally to wreck havoc. (Hey paladin! I'm working for [X city] Nyaah nyaah nyaah, can't touch me! And wait for an angry group of paladins to appear...)

[Angelalex242]

Fun fact: the Lawful Evil party rogue (a Halfling, might I add) is actually trying to seduce the Green Dragon.

...My character can't really blame him, because I'm dating the silver dragon (who is also female). At least Silvers can polymorph, so I make slightly more sense. :P

[Honest Tiefling]

Fun fact: the Lawful Evil party rogue (a Halfling, might I add) is actually trying to seduce the Green Dragon.

...My character can't really blame him, because I'm dating the silver dragon (who is also female). At least Silvers can polymorph, so I make slightly more sense. :P

You should sabotage this. The dragon might convert the halfing via seduction. And yes, your character can blame them for trying to sleep with a serial killer. That's sorta an important detail!

[Willie the Duck]

Fun fact: the Lawful Evil party rogue (a Halfling, might I add) is actually trying to seduce the Green Dragon.

...My character can't really blame him, because I'm dating the silver dragon (who is also female). At least Silvers can polymorph, so I make slightly more sense. :P

Perhaps my iconic 2nd edition character, Thoros Boarhunter was a LN minotaur (cursed human type, not whole race of evil bull-people type) who convinced a green dragoness that the village she was terrorizing was 'her' village because it was in her territory, and thus it would look better to the other dragons if her village was a thriving micro-metropolis instead of a terrorized dump. She ended up becoming the protector of the village, with the villagers 'playing along' and involving the (newly crafter) Ballad of the Valley of the Green Dragon during their harvest celebration and such. Thoros became her 'consort protector (honorary)' and they had a platonic love affair for the rest of the campaign (by then just storytelling, as I'd moved on to other characters in-play). Quite a bit of fun little world-building.

[Angelalex242]

You should sabotage this. The dragon might convert the halfing via seduction. And yes, your character can blame them for trying to sleep with a serial killer. That's sorta an important detail!

That's actually a great point. Known murderer, not even repentant about it.

[Unoriginal]

Fun fact: the Lawful Evil party rogue (a Halfling, might I add) is actually trying to seduce the Green Dragon.

...My character can't really blame him, because I'm dating the silver dragon (who is also female). At least Silvers can polymorph, so I make slightly more sense. :P

Well, dragons are magnificent. Nothing wrong that.

But for this dragon in particular it's about as much a good idea as trying to seduce Count Dooku.

As others have said, don't blame them for trying to seduce a dragon (it's their business, after all), blame them for trying to seduce a mass murderer.

[History_buff]

What's she gonna do? Destroy the world more?

I think the previous poster was implying that Tiamat would rip the green dragon to shreds for its weakness and cowardice.

[History_buff]

And I’ll go on to say that Geas wouldn’t be a very good spell to use. It can outright kill weak creatures, but disobeying the geas would be more of an annoyance than an actual deterrent to an ancient green dragon.

It can only work once per day.

[Angelalex242]

I think the previous poster was implying that Tiamat would rip the green dragon to shreds for its weakness and cowardice.

That was what I was thinking, yes.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouHaveFailedMe

Tiamat to her underling.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

That was what I was thinking, yes.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouHaveFailedMe

Tiamat to her underling.

It's risky though. The advantage over killing it is that you offload the moral responsibility, the downside is that Tiamat may just insta-heal the dragon and sent it back with a +3 pedicure and some friends or such. She can always kill it later.

[Honest Tiefling]

It's risky though. The advantage over killing it is that you offload the moral responsibility, the downside is that Tiamat may just insta-heal the dragon and sent it back with a +3 pedicure and some friends or such. She can always kill it later.

The linked trope also points out why this policy is completely stupid to boot. And dragons can't reproduce that quickly and take a while to mature. She's much better off sparing the dragon than wasting all of that investment.

Not to mention, if Tiamat thinks that enemies are dropping minions onto her doorstep so she'll kill them, she's not going to do it. I mean, why else would enemies of herself giftwrap a dragon and hand it over? She's probably going to investigate that tidbit before acting.

[Angelalex242]

The linked trope also points out why this policy is completely stupid to boot. And dragons can't reproduce that quickly and take a while to mature. She's much better off sparing the dragon than wasting all of that investment.

Not to mention, if Tiamat thinks that enemies are dropping minions onto her doorstep so she'll kill them, she's not going to do it. I mean, why else would enemies of herself giftwrap a dragon and hand it over? She's probably going to investigate that tidbit before acting.

It is stupid, but the trope namer is no less than Darth Vader, and he's usually fairly smart. In the original trilogy. (we don't talk about prequels...)

[Unoriginal]

It is stupid, but the trope namer is no less than Darth Vader, and he's usually fairly smart. In the original trilogy. (we don't talk about prequels...)

Darth Vader isn't really smart in the original trilogy. Just perceptive.

Though it was not that stupid when he killed the one admiral so incompetent he hindered Vader's plan despite Vader's instructions.

[Uzgul]

Regarding the legalities of killing the dragon: Assuming a medival somewhat European society it's pretty reasonable to assume that (evil) dragons and other creatures are considered outlaws in general, thus not protected by the law. So killing them would be no crime, no matter who kills them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw

Or from a slightly different perspective: No legal authority in their right minds would declare trolls, ogres, dragons etc. to be protected by the law in the first place.

That doesn't solve any moral problems, but at least gets the legal one out of the way.


On topic: My group usually goes by: Can you help us enough NOW, that we have a reason to spare you. Though in the case of the green dragon, I don't see, what he could do to let him go. So I vote for: Leave him as the silver dragons problem, if she wants to spare him.

[Unoriginal]

You should make sure the Silver Dragon isn't under a mind control or charm effect.

[Angelalex242]

You should make sure the Silver Dragon isn't under a mind control or charm effect.

I believe the GM said it was more of the Silver Dragon is a big softie. Bleeding heart too compassionate for her own good type. Doesn't mean anyone else, including other Silver Dragons, would agree with her assessment.

[Envyus]

Maybe just ask the Dragon for some of it's treasure. I don't think it will go for less then that. Anything else I assume it will just breathe on the party and fly away. This is an ancient dragon and unless it is near death it has a good chance of escaping pretty easily.

[Angelalex242]

Maybe just ask the Dragon for some of it's treasure. I don't think it will go for less then that. Anything else I assume it will just breathe on the party and fly away. This is an ancient dragon and unless it is near death it has a good chance of escaping pretty easily.

Actually, it is near death. We basically had it pinned down under two Paladins with Sentinel and an entangle spell. So until we let it up, it has...I dunno, something like 40 of its 330 hp left.

[Envyus]

I would still go for a simple thing of asking for the location of it's horde. With the promise of release if it does so. I don't think there is much more then that that the dragon will be willing to give on.

[Nifft]

Sounds like the DM intends for this to go wrong if you are that low a level, so I say role for seduction. Sweet surrender, indeed.

"Oh what a Knight..."

[Tvtyrant]

Sweet surrender, indeed.

"Oh what a Knight..."

A Knight to remember :P

[Angelalex242]

A Knight to remember :P

You ran right into it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDxhugRKZ8g

(also it's the LE Halfling!! rogue trying to bang the Green, not the Paladin. Paladin is snogging the Silver though!)

[Tvtyrant]

You ran right into it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDxhugRKZ8g

(also it's the LE Halfling!! rogue trying to bang the Green, not the Paladin. Paladin is snogging the Silver though!)

But I can't make wedding knight jokes about rogues.

[Angelalex242]

But I can't make wedding knight jokes about rogues.

No. So you instead make jokes about stealing virtue. Not that green dragons have any, but...

[CharonsHelper]

No. So you instead make jokes about stealing virtue. Not that green dragons have any, but...

If the rogue gets with the dragon - they'll have to watch themselves with any other dragons. After all, this one is obviously already green with envy.

Just remember to think of things from the dragon's angle. After all, it's not easy being green.

[Tvtyrant]

If the rogue gets with the dragon - they'll have to watch themselves with any other dragons. After all, this one is obviously already green with envy.

Just remember to think of things from the dragon's angle. After all, it's not easy being green.
I mean talk about bridezilla...

[TheYell]

In my state a prisoner can't consent to sex with a guard, it's always statutory rape...

[Angelalex242]

Bridezilla isn't the half of it.

This is an ancient green dragon, during the Rise of Tiamat campaign. Lawful Evil, sure, but...

I think the Dragon figures the rogue must be trying to escape the coming wrath by having a chromatic dragon to crash with when it all goes to hell.

[Tvtyrant]

Bridezilla isn't the half of it.

This is an ancient green dragon, during the Rise of Tiamat campaign. Lawful Evil, sure, but...

I think the Dragon figures the rogue must be trying to escape the coming wrath by having a chromatic dragon to crash with when it all goes to hell.
I'm still trying to figure out how your lowish level party didn't get ganked by it, honestly.

[Sigreid]

I'm with those who say to make it the silver dragon's problem. Honestly, you don't really have any capacity for restraining it long term anyway.

[Angelalex242]

I'm still trying to figure out how your lowish level party didn't get ganked by it, honestly.

Apparently having a Silver Dragon on the team makes up for a LOT.

Because the party consecutively ganked an Ancient White and Ancient Green (this one) with naught but a single long rest between them, and didn't even get to level up between fights.

Just before that, we took 6 young whites out of the sky in an airborne battle, and then an adult white in the cave who was the mate of the ancient white.

So our puny level 7 team (which leveled up to level 9 in one session as the result of taking down two ancient dragons in a row)+adult silver took down two ancient chromatic dragons.

Let this be the answer to 'is having a silver dragon on the team balanced?' No, not really, it apparently makes up for about 10 levels of CR!

[Sigreid]

Apparently having a Silver Dragon on the team makes up for a LOT.

Because the party consecutively ganked an Ancient White and Ancient Green (this one) with naught but a single long rest between them, and didn't even get to level up between fights.

Just before that, we took 6 young whites out of the sky in an airborne battle, and then an adult white in the cave who was the mate of the ancient white.

So our puny level 7 team (which leveled up to level 9 in one session as the result of taking down two ancient dragons in a row)+adult silver took down two ancient chromatic dragons.

Let this be the answer to 'is having a silver dragon on the team balanced?' No, not really, it apparently makes up for about 10 levels of CR!

Well, to be fair an ancient silver dragon will almost certainly win against an ancient white or green anyway.

[hamishspence]

They did say "adult silver" not "ancient silver".

[Angelalex242]

Well, to be fair an ancient silver dragon will almost certainly win against an ancient white or green anyway.

Adult Silver. It's one age category down. So it does need the human artillery platform on her back to win.

[Sigreid]

Adult Silver. It's one age category down. So it does need the human artillery platform on her back to win.

Ah, misread. That is a very different fight.

[Angelalex242]

Ah, misread. That is a very different fight.

It's definitely going to make the 'Council of Dragons' section of Rise of Tiamat go much easier.

Proof of what an adult dragon with human friends can do against ancient dragons makes for a more convincing argument than damn near anything PCs normally have.

[Sigreid]

It's definitely going to make the 'Council of Dragons' section of Rise of Tiamat go much easier.

Proof of what an adult dragon with human friends can do against ancient dragons makes for a more convincing argument than damn near anything PCs normally have.

Well, yeah. Given 2 dragons with similar speed, one with a longbowman on his back is going to beat one without as long as he's not an idiot and let's the longbowman shoot from a safe distance.

[Angelalex242]

Well, yeah. Given 2 dragons with similar speed, one with a longbowman on his back is going to beat one without as long as he's not an idiot and let's the longbowman shoot from a safe distance.

Oh, no, it wasn't even a run and gun battle. Its, when the Ancient Dragon closed with the younger Adult dragon, and tried to rip her out of the sky, it got hit with Sentinel from the Paladin on her back.

Movement 0+Air battle=Drop like a rock and hit the ground.

Oh, and having spellcasters buff you with things like protection from poison and bless also helps a lot. And the Paladin's save bonus. Also, spells from the offensive spellcasters.

[Tvtyrant]

Oh, no, it wasn't even a run and gun battle. Its, when the Ancient Dragon closed with the younger Adult dragon, and tried to rip her out of the sky, it got hit with Sentinel from the Paladin on her back.

Movement 0+Air battle=Drop like a rock and hit the ground.

Oh, and having spellcasters buff you with things like protection from poison and bless also helps a lot. And the Paladin's save bonus. Also, spells from the offensive spellcasters.

Sounds like you are playing a full on game of dragonlance at this point. The DM should be putting riders on the opponent's dragons and just embrace the madness.

[Sigreid]

Oh, no, it wasn't even a run and gun battle. Its, when the Ancient Dragon closed with the younger Adult dragon, and tried to rip her out of the sky, it got hit with Sentinel from the Paladin on her back.

Movement 0+Air battle=Drop like a rock and hit the ground.

Oh, and having spellcasters buff you with things like protection from poison and bless also helps a lot. And the Paladin's save bonus. Also, spells from the offensive spellcasters.

Yep. I was just looking at how little it would take to make the fight un winnable for one of the dragons. An NPC commoner with a longbow and enough arrows could do it.

[Angelalex242]

Sounds like you are playing a full on game of dragonlance at this point. The DM should be putting riders on the opponent's dragons and just embrace the madness.

It...pretty much is Dragonlance right now. So far he hasn't thought of riders on the enemy dragons yet.

Then again, this is characters and one dragon acting like Dragonlance right now. It'll take some time for word of how effective this idea is to get around to the Cult of the Dragon, and from there, you have to convince extremely evil chromatics to carry riders around. And if they are convinced, they give no f***s about their riders.

Metallic Dragons do care about their riders, being good and all. So they put more effort into protecting their humans.

In any event, in this particular campaign, the good guys thought of it first. And the Council of Metallic Dragons hasn't been informed of it yet, though they're definitely going to hear about it when the council comes up. The Cult will likely get some riders on some chromatics, but they won't adopt the policy anywhere as fast as the good dragons will. And in terms of a war, that matters.

[Honest Tiefling]

Sounds like you are playing a full on game of dragonlance at this point. The DM should be putting riders on the opponent's dragons and just embrace the madness.

Weren't people snogging dragons left and right in that setting anyway? So they have two things bringing them closer to the setting.

Through if halflings start to become like kender, kill your partymate. Last thing the world needs is a kender with draconic blood.

[Angelalex242]

Heck of a campaign world when the Rise of Tiamat sourcebook somehow turns the whole world into Dragonlance.

Not everyone plays it that way, I'm sure, but hey! It's not a bad place for a level 15 party that just drove a god off to go.