Holy Water -- is it a magic item?

[Dalebert]

This is a continuation of a topic that came up in Simple RAW (A 494).

I posit that it is not. If you follow Crawford's guidelines for whether something is considered magical, it would not be. It's not "fueled by spell slots" anymore than a familiar is. A familiar is a living creature summoned and created by magic but then it's a creature that is not subject to dispelling or anti-magic. Note the duration of the spell as "instantaneous". The magic is over. Now it just exists. An imp couldn't turn invisible but it wouldn't vanish in an anti-magic field. An example of a creature "fueled by spell slots" would be a conjured elemental or a druid conjuring animals. They vanish at the end of the duration.

And since "fueled by spell slots" is the only bullet point that would cause it to be deemed magical, it's not. That it does something amazing that seems magical (radiant dmg) is no more reason to deem it magical than a dragon breathing lightning. It's "holy". So it the strike of a diva's weapon that also does radiant dmg.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's as much a magic item as a healing potion.

[Unoriginal]

It's as much a magic item as a healing potion.

I came here to post this exact thing.

[nickl_2000]

Potion of Healing. A character who drinks the magical red fluid in this vial regains 2d4 + 2 hit points. Drinking or administering a potion takes an action.



Holy Water. As an action, you can splash the contents of this flask onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw it up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a target creature, treating the holy water as an improvised weapon. If the target is a fiend or undead, it takes 2d6 radiant damage. A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.


So a potion of healing specifically states in the text that it is a magical liquid, where as Holy Water does not. Which could go either way, but certainly muddies the water some.

Personally I've always equated Holy Water with alchemists fire assuming that they were both non-magical. Holy Water is simply a mundane object created using a magical spell in the same way that a mundane bridge can be made with the fabricate spell.

[Joe the Rat]

+It takes a spell slot (or ritual) to create.

+The effect seems magic-like (non-natural damage type, only against non-natural creatures)

-Is a nonconsumed, noncosted spell component, which typically means mundane.

-Acts like alchemist's fire or burning oil against undead and fiends

? Cannot be produced without magic (Ceremony), Healing potions can/ must be (Herbalist Kit)

? Readily purchased on equipment list.


I'd lean to saying it is a common magic item, because supercommon (or in WotC terms, lands) isn't a category. It shades into "is alchemy magical?" but leans closer due to it's necessary supernatural connection.

[Tubben]

Hm, what happens if you drink an healing potion in an antimagic field ?

[KorvinStarmast]

Hm, what happens if you drink an healing potion in an antimagic field ?
You slap yourself on the forehead and yell "I could have had a V8!"

[Arial Black]

Objects/substances produced by a spell or other magic do not have to be magic themselves.

Holy water doesn't do anything that normal water doesn't. Certain creatures may take damage from it, but this seems more a magical property of the creatures rather than the holy water.

A healing potion would not heal in an anti-magic field. Would fiends/undead take damage from holy water in an anti-magic field? I'd say yes.

Radiant damage is not inherently magical. When vampires burst into flame in sunlight, it doesn't mean that the Sun is a magical item, it means that this magical creature is allergic (kinda) to sunlight.

[nickl_2000]

Hm, what happens if you drink an healing potion in an antimagic field ?

This one is definite, the PHB states that's it's a magical liquid and the effects are immediate. So nothing happens since the field makes it non-magical.

[Millstone85]

It's not "fueled by spell slots" anymore than a familiar is. A familiar is a living creature summoned and created by magic but then it's a creature that is not subject to dispelling or anti-magic. Note the duration of the spell as "instantaneous". The magic is over. Now it just exists. An imp couldn't turn invisible but it wouldn't vanish in an anti-magic field. An example of a creature "fueled by spell slots" would be a conjured elemental or a druid conjuring animals. They vanish at the end of the duration.I think I had read the sage advice on undead before. If so, I failed to realize it applied to familiars as well.

Thank you, that's very good to know.

And yeah, by the same logic, holy water can't be dispelled or antimagicked either.

[Easy_Lee]

Not a magic item because the description doesn't specify that it's a magic item. As with Create or Destroy Water, it's possible for spells (magic) to create nonmagical things.

[Coffee_Dragon]

On a related note: do "magical" creatures generally attack with magical weapons? Specifically Hound of Ill Omen.

If the MM is anything to go by, the answer is no, but on the other hand most creatures spelled out as having magical attacks are ones that don't attack exclusively with natural weapons, and there are probably some creatures that don't have this trait that you'd think of as being inherently magical.

[Dalebert]

As stated several times now, there are many cases of something being created with a spell and not being magical so that's not a reason in and of itself. My impression is that since holy water is a significant resource, they wanted there to be a cost for creating it as a balancing factor. If you're an appropriate class, you can "bless" water to make it holy as needed if you didn't plan ahead and just buy some from your temple, but at a cost. It's holy just like a holy symbol which can be used to turn undead, and holy is separate from being magical, though something could be both.


On a related note: do "magical" creatures generally attack with magical weapons? Specifically Hound of Ill Omen.

I may be misunderstanding your question but I'll give it a shot. Summoned creature's attacks are not, by default, considered magical. While I'm very confident in this answer, I can't recall a reference to back it up so I understand if there is some controversy. There may be stated exceptions. I have a shadow sorcerer and I've never treated the hound's attacks as magical. There's a rule somewhere about whether the spell deals dmg directly (fireball, Evard's Tentacles, Spikestones) or indirectly (Conjure Animals, Telekinesis, Animate Objects).

[Tanarii]

It's no more magical than Acid, Alchemists Fire, Antitoxin, Ballbearings, Caltrops, a Climbers Kit, a Healer's kit, a Hunting Trap, or Basic Poison. Only the Potion of Healing says it is magical.

[Davrix]

It's no more magical than Acid, Alchemists Fire, Antitoxin, Ballbearings, Caltrops, a Climbers Kit, a Healer's kit, a Hunting Trap, or Basic Poison. Only the Potion of Healing says it is magical.

I'm sorry but no

Holy water is Magical for a very simple reason and im really shocked and rolling my eyes at anyone in this thread trying to say its not.

But lets look at everything you listed up there, especially the acid and AF. Those are made through chemical reactions so yes not magical.

How is holy water made though? By some chemical reaction? By adding special herbs? Nope

Holy water is made through a spell using ingredients and infused with divine energy. Thus obtaining properties though said divine energy that actually affects unholy things aka undead. But I'm sure water mixed with powder silver without the magical radiant energy will accomplish the same job right...? Nope.

[Requilac]

What you also have to keep in mind is that real life holy water is not the same as holy water in D&D. Real life holy water is water mixed with salt, oil, wine and/or ashes, while the holy water from the PHB requires just powder iron. The PHB holy water doesn’t have any of the original additions as the real life one does, and instead has something added in which has nothing to do with what we know as holy water in the real world. I am fairly convinced that the liquid from the PHB is an entirely different substance that has a similar purpose but completely different make-up.

And I would also make the case that divine doesn’t necessarily mean magic. Holy water is clearly blessed by something divine, but that does not necessarily make it magic, at least in the common sense. A blessing from the gods does not automatically make something arcane. Notice how a cleric’s turn undead would work perfectly well within an anti-magic field, despite being quite obviously a manifestation of supernatural power. That same rule applies here. Holy water is certainly “blessed”, and most likely “supernatural”, but that does not mean it is “magic”.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm sorry but no

Holy water is Magical for a very simple reason and im really shocked and rolling my eyes at anyone in this thread trying to say its not.

But lets look at everything you listed up there, especially the acid and AF. Those are made through chemical reactions so yes not magical.

How is holy water made though? By some chemical reaction? By adding special herbs? Nope

Holy water is made through a spell using ingredients and infused with divine energy. Thus obtaining properties though said divine energy that actually affects unholy things aka undead. But I'm sure water mixed with powder silver without the magical radiant energy will accomplish the same job right...? Nope.

What is that simple reason, though? Familiars are also created through magic but are not supressed in a magical field. Same goes for weapons summoned through the warlock blade pact. The spell Create or Destroy Water also creates water that is nonmagical. The description of the item does not specify that it is magical.

Regarding its effects on undead, running water of any variety and sunlight both have significant effects on vampires. But those things aren't magical.

So, why should we assume it's magical? Because it has an apparently magical effect? You seem to be arguing that holy water should be magical, but I see no evidence that it is.

[bc56]

I'm really not a fan of the official ruling on antimagic fields. I feel certain traits (like breath weapons) are magical and should not be possible in an antimagic field.

The real question for this is if a healing potion loses its power while in an A-M field. If it does, holy water probably should too.

[Knaight]

In the context of "magic item" as game jargon pertaining to AMF rules, I'd say that it isn't a magic item. In the context of whether it is an item which is magical I'd say yes with some minor reservations - all of which have to do with "item" being an odd word to describe what is fundamentally a substance, where the item/substance being magical is pretty obvious.

Similarly I'd consider divine blessings and supernatural powers magical in general.

[Tanarii]

I'm sorry but no

Holy water is Magical for a very simple reason and im really shocked and rolling my eyes at anyone in this thread trying to say its not.
I'm sorry but no.

Holy Water is not a magic item for a very simple reason, and I'm really shocked and rolling my eyes at anyone in this thread trying to say it's is.

Let's look at the simple facts shall we:
Does it say it's magical? Nope.
Is it listed under magical items? Nope.
Do we have a clear and concise counter-example of something that says it is magical and is listed as a magical item?

Holy Water is no more a magic item than Alchemist's Fire or Acid.

[Knaight]

Let's look at the simple facts shall we:
Does it say it's magical? Nope.
Is it listed under magical items? Nope.
Do we have a clear and concise counter-example of something that says it is magical and is listed as a magical item?

Holy Water is no more a magic item than Alchemist's Fire or Acid.

That truncated list of facts strongly implies that it's not a magical item. It ignores one really major factor though. Acid is a real thing - you've got your concentrated hydrogen ions, and in high concentration they burn through a number of substances and cause tissue damage. It gets exaggerated due to the effects of genre fiction, but there's something there under it. Alchemists' Fire is a bit murkier, but highly flammable liquids that self ignite when exposed to air are absolutely a thing, with greek fire and naptha* based weaponry existing in the historical milieu D&D is based on. A lot of the people who produced it could even be described pretty well as alchemists, particularly in the context of Mediterranean battles in the 10th century onwards.

Holy water as a weapon against undead and demons, which burns their flesh? That's total fantasy. Actual people have deliberately used acid and alchemist fire analogs as weapons against other actual people (with acid still used fairly often to deliberately disfigure, which is a whole other can of unpleasantness I'd rather not get into here). Nobody has actually thrown holy water at a zombie.

Then there's the matter of how acid and alchemists fire work by the actual physical processes of chemical burns and regular burns. Holy Water meanwhile does some sort of metaphysical thing with abstract metaphysical energies. It's operation is in the realm of the symbolic, and that more than anything marks it as magic to me.

*The archaic and somewhat vague definition.

[Tanarii]

In the real world, 20th level Barbarians and non-EK Fighters don't exist either. Does that make them magical?

Also, remember in D&D-landia there is a difference between something that's background magical, including divine or elemental ... and magic item magical.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I may be misunderstanding your question but I'll give it a shot. Summoned creature's attacks are not, by default, considered magical. While I'm very confident in this answer, I can't recall a reference to back it up so I understand if there is some controversy. There may be stated exceptions. I have a shadow sorcerer and I've never treated the hound's attacks as magical. There's a rule somewhere about whether the spell deals dmg directly (fireball, Evard's Tentacles, Spikestones) or indirectly (Conjure Animals, Telekinesis, Animate Objects).

I found the SA ruling that conjured creatures have magical attacks only if it says so anywhere, so that solves that (and I get to deliver bad news to the sorc player and the DM who ruled in his favour, muahahaha, cough).

(Also saw a ruling that Hunter's Mark damage is magical, which messes up the spell's flavour just a little bit - ranger pokes werewolf with a sword that can't pierce its skin, but if he just keeps doing it with magic-enhanced accuracy/ferocity/something, the werewolf will lose enough luck, pluck and favour of the gods HP to keel over and die without ever suffering any physical damage, or something.)

The more general part of the question was related to things that pop up when you search Reddit and such for rulings on magical damage, like the funny fact that two werewolves can wallop on each other all day and not do any damage, since both are "magically" immune to non-magical damage but neither has magical attacks. A unicorn crosses this magicality threshold because it says so, but another monster might be described as a magical being of magical magic yet not actually count as having magical natural weapons. This is in line with the distinction made in Sage Advice between background magicness and "actual magic" in the absence of explicit effects like the monk's level 6 ability.

But as niggling exhibit 3A, consider demons and devils. The subset that has explicit magical weapon attacks is identical to the subset that has high-end-CR and involves non-natural weapons: balors, mariliths and pit fiends. Is this a coincidence? Or did the designers want to make a statement about what quality of non-natural weapons such a creature would be likely to employ, rather than a statement about these demons and devils bodily crossing the magicality threshold along with the unicorn? In either case, because of how weapon attacks are defined in 5E, a marilith can punch a werewolf and do damage. A glabrezu or goristro cannot. Maybe the designers were aware of this and thought it wasn't a big enough deal to warrant a more specifically worded ability. I shed a tear for every pair of duelling werewolves who ever said, "This isn't working. Let's each pick up one of these swords left behind by a marilith and wallop on each other with those instead." It won't work, stupid werewolves.

[Arial Black]

That truncated list of facts strongly implies that it's not a magical item. It ignores one really major factor though. Acid is a real thing - you've got your concentrated hydrogen ions, and in high concentration they burn through a number of substances and cause tissue damage. It gets exaggerated due to the effects of genre fiction, but there's something there under it. Alchemists' Fire is a bit murkier, but highly flammable liquids that self ignite when exposed to air are absolutely a thing, with greek fire and naptha* based weaponry existing in the historical milieu D&D is based on. A lot of the people who produced it could even be described pretty well as alchemists, particularly in the context of Mediterranean battles in the 10th century onwards.

Holy water as a weapon against undead and demons, which burns their flesh? That's total fantasy. Actual people have deliberately used acid and alchemist fire analogs as weapons against other actual people (with acid still used fairly often to deliberately disfigure, which is a whole other can of unpleasantness I'd rather not get into here). Nobody has actually thrown holy water at a zombie.

Then there's the matter of how acid and alchemists fire work by the actual physical processes of chemical burns and regular burns. Holy Water meanwhile does some sort of metaphysical thing with abstract metaphysical energies. It's operation is in the realm of the symbolic, and that more than anything marks it as magic to me.

*The archaic and somewhat vague definition.

It's not that Holy Water burns flesh, it's that some creatures take damage from it, and that is a property of the creature, not the Holy Water.

[Knaight]

In the real world, 20th level Barbarians and non-EK Fighters don't exist either. Does that make them magical?
They have approximate analogs, and they still operate within the general paradigm of physical reality (hitting things with swords hurts them because they physically damage the tissues) and not the symbolic reality that a lot of magic tends to operate in.


Also, remember in D&D-landia there is a difference between something that's background magical, including divine or elemental ... and magic item magical.
Hence my position on it being a magic item in the sense of an item which is magical, but not necessarily in a game jargon sense.


It's not that Holy Water burns flesh, it's that some creatures take damage from it, and that is a property of the creature, not the Holy Water.
That's a decent bit of setting fluff for explicitly nonmagical holy water, which has a history of working with salt, iron, etc. When a divinely powered priest casts a magic spell on an substance to make it hurt overtly magical beings that it otherwise wouldn't affect? That comes across as a bit more on the item side.

[Requilac]

That's a decent bit of setting fluff for explicitly nonmagical holy water, which has a history of working with salt, iron, etc. When a divinely powered priest casts a magic spell on an substance to make it hurt overtly magical beings that it otherwise wouldn't affect? That comes across as a bit more on the item side.

Once again I have to bring up the point that divine is not equal to magic. Even if a spell is cast to create it, that doesn’t mean the object is magical it simply means it’s blessed with holy power, which can but does not always make it magic. A cleric’s turn undead and a paladin’s smite works perfectly well in an anti-magic field despite being quite obviously manifestations of supernatural power. Holy water may be blessed by holy power, but there is no arcane magic in the common sense involved (that we know of), just invocations of the gods. That’s why I am saying it’s not a magical item. I am not denying that some supernatural power is involved in it’s creation, I am saying that supernatural does not always equal magic in D&D terms.

[Knaight]

Once again I have to bring up the point that divine is not equal to magic. Even if a spell is cast to create it, that doesn’t mean the spell is magical it simply means it’s blessed with holy power, which can but does not always make it magic.

I'm pretty willing to assume that spells are magical.

[Arkhios]

I'm pretty willing to assume that spells are magical.

LOL


...on topic. Yes.

Even if you didn't use Xanathar's Guide and the Ceremony Spell to create Holy Water, the requirement of a special ritual needed to create holy water clearly implies magic. I'm fairly certain that any ritual is an activity of magical proportions. It's only logical that if something would be produced by ways of a ritual it has to be magical. Therefore, Holy Water is a magic item. It's also very specifically implied that magic item rarity starts from common. Holy Water and Healing Potions are both common magic items, because they are easily produced.

[Requilac]

I'm pretty willing to assume that spells are magical.

Oh, that was actually a typo on my case. I meant to say that it does not make the item magical, not the spell. I corrected the original post.

[Tanarii]

LOL


...on topic. Yes.

Even if you didn't use Xanathar's Guide and the Ceremony Spell to create Holy Water, the requirement of a special ritual needed to create holy water clearly implies magic. I'm fairly certain that any ritual is an activity of magical proportions. It's only logical that if something would be produced by ways of a ritual it has to be magical. Therefore, Holy Water is a magic item. It's also very specifically implied that magic item rarity starts from common. Holy Water and Healing Potions are both common magic items, because they are easily produced.Youve made a logic error here. But only because of 5e's distinction between things that are background or inherently magical, and things that are magical items or active/ongoing spell effects. Which primarily matters for Antimagic Field and Dispel Magic.

Using a ritual or even a spell to produce an item may result in something magical, but that doesn't mean the thing produced is necessarily a magic item nor an ongoing spell effect.

Holy Water is like being healed for hit points. That doesn't make you a partially a magical being, with wounds that reopen (or whatever HPs are to you) if a Dispel or on entering an AMF. Neither does Holy Water cease to be/function as Holy Water. Or if you prefer to insist it's "magical", it's analogous like being a Dragon who can still do its function (breathe fire) in an AMF.

[Dalebert]

I'm fairly certain that any ritual is an activity of magical proportions. It's only logical that if something would be produced by ways of a ritual it has to be magical.

That's just not true at all. Case in point--a familiar is not magical.

Is a holy symbol magical? No. Can a cleric use a holy symbol to turn undead while in an anti-magic field? Yes. So why can't a cleric bless some water with a ritual and the result of that ritual be non-magical in the same way turning undead is? It's HOLY. Holy does not equal magical. Holy means it's blessed by some divine power. BLESSED; not magical.

It feels like people just want it to be magical for some reason and are making leaps of logic to get there. It doesn't fit any of the criteria Crawford created to specify it as magical so it's not.

[JackPhoenix]

Is a holy symbol magical? No. Can a cleric use a holy symbol to turn undead while in an anti-magic field? Yes. So why can't a cleric bless some water with a ritual and the result of that ritual be non-magical in the same way turning undead is? It's HOLY. Holy does not equal magical. Holy means it's blessed by some divine power. BLESSED; not magical.

Channel Divinity
"At 2nd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects. You start with two such effects: Turn Undead and an effect determined by your domain."

Antimagic Field:
"Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the sphere and can’t protrude into it."

Channel Divinity, including Turn Undead, doesn't work in antimagic field, though you *may* argue that it works because it originates from a deity, but that's a specific exception.

[Arial Black]

Channel Divinity
"At 2nd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects. You start with two such effects: Turn Undead and an effect determined by your domain."

Antimagic Field:
"Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the sphere and can’t protrude into it."

Channel Divinity, including Turn Undead, doesn't work in antimagic field, though you *may* argue that it works because it originates from a deity, but that's a specific exception.

But the holy symbol is not magical itself. It, like the vast majority of material components for spells, is a mundane object. It may have been blessed and rituals chanted over it, but it remains non-magical.

Holy water is also non-magical. It is water that has had a spell cast over it, but that spell did not turn it into a magic item. What the spell did was simply make 'water' count as 'holy water', and the only difference between 'water' and 'holy water' is that some creatures take damage from holy water, and this is a property of those creatures, not a magical effect of the holy water.

Just like The Sun is not a magical item but vampires take damage from sunlight, holy water is not a magical item but undead/fiends take damage from it.