Simple EL11 System

[Easy_Lee]

Many feel that level 11 is the ideal point for 5e to stop. Past this level, many (but not all) class fearures and especially many spells get out of hand. Some have expressed interest in an EL11 system: progression stops at level 11.

The trouble is what to do with characters once they hit this level. You don't want to take away the possibility of advancement, but you don't want players to continue gaining buckets of HP either.

Here's a Simple EL11 System that fits in three bullet points:

Class tables and spell slots are adjusted to end at character level 11.
Levels past 11 cost 15,000 XP if using the standard XP chart.
Past level 11, you do not gain hit points or increased proficiency bonus.

This allows characters to continue progressing indefinitely without huge gains in power. They can eventually max out their attributes and potentially gain two or more full sets of class features, but these are used only with the spell slots and HP that a level 11 character would have. Half-casters can multiclass into casters to eventually become full casters with new spells known. Wizards can multiclass into Clerics to vastly expand their spells known. And so on.

This doesn't mean all characters are equal. A maxed sorcerer who then goes into warlock would probably have greater power than a maxed wizard who then went into barbarian, for example. And a barbarian/rogue can certainly do a lot of damage compared to a cleric/druid. But this does create interesting choices, encourage diverse characters, and prevent players from becoming too powerful (in terms of HP and spells) for normal creatures to threaten them.

Thoughts? Criticism?

[mephnick]

My only problem with advancing using only class features is that Hit Dice are a class feature for d10 and d12 classes. Losing 9 levels of better hit die needs to be compensated for, as a Barbarian should widen the HP gap on a Wizard between 11-20.

[Easy_Lee]

My only problem with advancing using only class features is that Hit Dice are a class feature for d10 and d12 classes. Losing 9 levels of better hit die needs to be compensated for, as a Barbarian should widen the HP gap on a Wizard between 11-20.

That's a good point, but I have a different take. All else being equal, there should be no HP difference between a level 11 barbarian and a level 22 wizard / barbarian. We need another bullet: Upon gaining a level in a new class, you may trade one of your existing HD for the new HD if the new HD is higher. Adjust your HP total accordingly.

[mephnick]

That's a good rule, but how do you compensate the 22 barbarian/ranger vs the 22 druid/monk? At normal levels 11-20 the first character would be widening that gap every level, now they only get the benefit from 1-11, which is a loss high HD martials don't really need.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So you hit 11 and then basically start gestalting?

[Easy_Lee]

That's a good rule, but how do you compensate the 22 barbarian/ranger vs the 22 druid/monk? At normal levels 11-20 the first character would be widening that gap every level, now they only get the benefit from 1-11, which is a loss high HD martials don't really need.

I do see your point, but the caster would normally be gaining additional spell slots during that time, too. It should balance out overall.


So you hit 11 and then basically start gestalting?

Basically.

[Theodoxus]

I prefer the E10 better. It's a lot easier to just split 20 levels in half, grant HD every odd level and class abilities every even. (It's a little more complicated than that, granting both for the first 4 levels, and then splitting off - Zman has a great writeup for it.)

I greatly expanded on that premise as well, and my players have been having a lot of fun with the playtest.

[Easy_Lee]

I prefer the E10 better. It's a lot easier to just split 20 levels in half, grant HD every odd level and class abilities every even. (It's a little more complicated than that, granting both for the first 4 levels, and then splitting off - Zman has a great writeup for it.)

I greatly expanded on that premise as well, and my players have been having a lot of fun with the playtest.

I've looked at that system but I have three big problems with it.

It's far more complicated than it needs to be
Damage scales much faster than hit points which affects strategy negatively - doing damage is almost always the best option.
It seems to presume that higher level spell slots are the only problem with characters past level 10.

The last point is key. Several features past level 10 are just as broken as any spell. The druid capstone, Hurl Through Hell, and Illusory Reality are just three examples. All of these have significant impact on encounters and, for the characters that get them, create overpowered strategies.

The monk is a great example of overpowered progression. In the first two tiers, monks are similar to other martials and are roughly balanced with rogues, fighters, and barbarians. Past level 10, monks have huge amounts of ki with which to stunning strike with impunity, gain proficiency in every saving throw, gain access to Empty Body for just four ki (this effect is like greater invisibility + Bear barbarian rage!) and some gain features like Quivering Palm...fighters, rogues, and barbarians cannot compete with that.

The E10 system depowers spellcasting but does nothing about overpowered class and archetype features. Most of tiers 3 and 4, not just the spells, needs rebalancing. Doing so is a lot of work. The simplest way around that, that I know of, is a gestalt-ish system like I proposed.

[Theodoxus]

There aren't any abilities past 10, not without feat or boon support at least.

There's the argument that fighters never getting their 3rd attack makes them even less attractive than they already were - but the rest of your statement just isn't true, so I wonder where you got your impression from.

[Easy_Lee]

There aren't any abilities past 10, not without feat or boon support at least.

There's the argument that fighters never getting their 3rd attack makes them even less attractive than they already were - but the rest of your statement just isn't true, so I wonder where you got your impression from.

Oh, are you talking about this one? http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/By9iD8H0e

There are a few E10 systems out there so I must have been looking at the wrong one if this is the one you meant.

My main issue with Zman's system is progression. Specifically, progression just stops at 10 (effective level 14). That's quite limiting, and was the primary reason why I wrote up the system in the simpler way above.

I don't much like his multiclassing either, but that's another story.

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, I see two potential issues:

1) Hit point total. Now, maybe you have solved this by restricting the CR of what the party faces, but say we have that 22 Barbarian/whatever face...ohhh, let's say a young red shadow dragon.

The dragon is a CR 13, should be well within the range of what that character can face since they are essentially a level 22 character. However, despite having all those abilities, the barbarian's hp is essentially capped at an average 137.

The dragon can do 4d10+2d6+12 through multiattack alone, their breath does 16d6 with a DC 18 dex save, their are resistance to everything but force, psychic, and radiant damage while in dim light or darkness, which is easy to to set up.

That's a cr 13, and that's easily able to stand up to this party. How about giants? They range from CR 5-9, so they are able to be dealt with...but a cloud giant is still doing 3d8+8 per attack, with 63 more hp then your barbarian.

To get to the point though, the higher CR enemies have high enough HP, and deal enough damage, that you need the higher hp to stand a ghost of a chance against them.

2) Turning half casters into full casters. There is a major danger in doing this, and that danger is called the Paladin. Having up to 6th level spell slots to smite with is insanely powerful on a paladin. We're talking about 16 slots to smite with here.

[Easy_Lee]

Hmmm, I see two potential issues:

1) Hit point total. Now, maybe you have solved this by restricting the CR of what the party faces, but say we have that 22 Barbarian/whatever face...ohhh, let's say a young red shadow dragon.

The dragon is a CR 13, should be well within the range of what that character can face since they are essentially a level 22 character. However, despite having all those abilities, the barbarian's hp is essentially capped at an average 137.

The dragon can do 4d10+2d6+12 through multiattack alone, their breath does 16d6 with a DC 18 dex save, their are resistance to everything but force, psychic, and radiant damage while in dim light or darkness, which is easy to to set up.

That's a cr 13, and that's easily able to stand up to this party. How about giants? They range from CR 5-9, so they are able to be dealt with...but a cloud giant is still doing 3d8+8 per attack, with 63 more hp then your barbarian.

To get to the point though, the higher CR enemies have high enough HP, and deal enough damage, that you need the higher hp to stand a ghost of a chance against them.

2) Turning half casters into full casters. There is a major danger in doing this, and that danger is called the Paladin. Having up to 6th level spell slots to smite with is insanely powerful on a paladin. We're talking about 16 slots to smite with here.

The party would continue facing CR11-ish threats. Their effective level would remain 11, they would just have new features.

That's a fair point about the Paladin but it currently happens in the form of the Sorcadin. I'm not too worried about this since it isn't a new problem and is easily resolved with high HP or radiant damage resistant creatures.

[sithlordnergal]

The party would continue facing CR11-ish threats. Their effective level would remain 11, they would just have new features.

That's a fair point about the Paladin but it currently happens in the form of the Sorcadin. I'm not too worried about this since it isn't a new problem and is easily resolved with high HP or radiant damage resistant creatures.

Ok, so they'd still be facing CR 11 stuff then. That does solve the issue. Honestly, I've never played games where you stop at a specific level, so I wasn't entirely sure how that worked out.

Yeah, that is an issue with the normal Soradin. So I'm probably worried about nothing with it. =o

[Malifice]

Had a thread on this myself.

I initially decided with a hard cap at 11th (otherwise what's the point?). I've also increased the XP required to advance in level by roughly x 2, but improved proficiency bonus improvement from 1/4 levels to 1/3 levels.

1 +2
2 +2
3 +2
4 +3
5 +3
6 +3
7 +4
8 +4
9 +4
10 +5
11 +5

I was then tossing up what to grant at each [XP interval?] after hitting 11th. I want to grant something. I have have ruled out proficiency bonus (it caps at +5 at 11th). Whatever 'it' is, it has to benefit everyone equally.

Currently sitting on each (yet to be determined block of XP) past 11th gets you:


+3 Hit points (Con modifier no longer applies)
1/long rest you may grant yourself advantage on a single saving throw, ability check or attack roll. Alternatively you can use this bonus to impose disadvantage on an enemy creatures saving throw, when that creature is forced to make a saving throw against one of your abilities or spells.


So a PC with enough XP for 17th level, is in fact 11th level, but has an extra +18 HP, and 6/long rest advantage/disadvantage.

[Malifice]

I'm also HR'ing that certain magic items that provide bonuses (weapons and shields, rods and wands and robes, arrows and bows) do not stack.

With the cut off to proficiency bonus of +5, this should protect bounded accuracy a bit more, and also allow magic items to be used (and more diverse magic items) without making mooks irrelevant due to spiraling AC of the PCs and lower bonuses to hit of the mooks.

The lower HP of mid-high level PCs capping at 11th also helps keep mooks relevant.

Heck; I'm probably just going to cap advancement at 11th, grant +3 HP per 50,000 XP after 11th and call it quits there.