Looking for a good Support Gestalt Build

[GrayDeath]

Hi There!


A new Player is joining our most recent 3.5 Game, and I`d like to ask for your help for general Build optimization.


Limits: Must be a Gestalt Character following the following limitations:

Tier 3/Tier 5 or Tier 4/Tier 4.
No more than 2 classes and a PRC on one, and one CLass +PRC on the other side. No switching sides (eg starting say Rogue on one, Paladin on the other, then going PRC on the rogue side and switchin rogue Levels to the Paladin side, or similar).
Can use prestige classes, but only such that do not REALLY raise him tierwise.
Needs to be not too hard to play (Player is a bit out of practice).
Should be useful for our group (Sorcerer/FS Theurge, Psion (Kineticist), Gunslinger, Warblade/Rogue+PRC Gestalt). The Group is mostly LE and TN.

Starting Level: 7.

Allowed Sources are: all core, all psionic, all ToB, all other SRD available Sources as long as they are not Level 4+ Casters.
Other sources may or may not be allowed, but we`d prefer them to not be necessary.

He himself would prefer a Tanky Support Character, but is otherwise pretty open.



Thanks in Advance for your Input!

[SangoProduction]

In what way is he 'support'? Do you want buffing/debuffing? Or do you want to zone control? Or maybe battlefield control?

[Karl Aegis]

Slap a Soulbow on one side. Do some nice chip damage.

[GrayDeath]

See group members so far.

We do have a little buffing from the Sorcerer/FS Theurge, which will become a bit more, but mostly he should do the Buff/BFC role if possible.

And no, we dont need more damage, the Kineticist/Gunslinger/Warblade Team does more than enough of that.

[Andor13]

Maybe Crusader (Bo9s) / Marshall (Minis Handbook) or Dragon Shaman?

That gives him good melee ability with some minor healing and some support auras to buff the party with minimal fuss while being tanky.

Marshal can be found here. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)

[Nifft]

Limits: Must be a Gestalt Character following the following limitations:

Tier 3/Tier 5 or Tier 4/Tier 4.
...
Should be useful for our group (Sorcerer/FS Theurge, Psion (Kineticist), Gunslinger, Warblade/Rogue+PRC Gestalt). The Group is mostly LE and TN.


Has your group has evaluated Sorcerer as a T3? Or am I reading that first PC wrong?

Also, which Tier list are you using? They're generally similar but there are differences in class ratings. The original (JaronK) doesn't list late-edition stuff like Totemist / Incarnate / Death Master / Dragonfire Adept / Spirit Shaman / etc.

How do you feel about high-tier PrCs like Chameleon / Divine Crusader / Ur-Priest / etc.?

By "support", do you mean mostly healing, or being a melee tank, or something else?


Here's a flexible T4//T4 skillful caster that could be someone else tomorrow: Changeling Binder 7 // CA Ninja 5 / Chameleon 2

Here's a flexible T3//T5 that can quickly adapt to different situations: Mystic Wildshape Ranger 7 // CA Ninja 1 / Fighter 4 / Master of Many Forms 2

Here's a T3//T5 melee healer: Crusader 7 // Healer 7 -- warning, must be Good


Here's a single-class character which probably overpowers any T3//T5 gestalt: Cloistered Cleric 7

Here's a multi-class non-gestalt character which provides flexibility and a lot of power: Elf Binder 1 / Generalist Wizard 3 / Anima Mage 3

[GrayDeath]

The Sorcerer/FS Theurge is, as the usage of Theurge implies, not a Gestalt Character and hence not limited to/by any Tier except the overall Ban of T1 classes (as we aim to avoid the can do everything, and great" problem^^).

And we are mostly using an amalgamation of Jaron K`s and the forums own Tier lists, with generally counting the ToB CLasses except Swordsage as Tier 4.

High Power PRC`s are, as written, are fine as long as they would not increase the Tier of the class. So Chamaeleon would likely and Ur Priest VERY MUCH be out.

[Nifft]

And we are mostly using an amalgamation of Jaron K`s and the forums own Tier lists, with generally counting the ToB CLasses except Swordsage as Tier 4.

Okay. Since you're using a custom Tier list, could you copy/paste the lists for T3, T4, and T5 classes?

That'll make it a lot easier to help.

[GrayDeath]

Only things we changed was putting Psion (with some extras) into Tier 1, Beguiler and Dread Necro into T 2, Warblade and Crusader into T 4 and Paladin (since we use the PF one) into T4.

Otherwise I cant seem to find differences. :smallcool:

[ExLibrisMortis]

First, to note: there are no "sides" to a gestalt.


Second, I would suggest something using a bit of marshal, some crusader, some incarnate... I realize that's another book to open, but it's pretty cool (see the build in my signature). Something like crusader 4/incarnate 4//[funky tier 5] 4/[full bab tier 4] 4 would be pretty nice. Your tier 5 could be something like monk or battle dancer, or fighter, or divine mind, or soulborn, or knight. Your tier 4 could be fighter again, or barbarian, or paladin (incompatible with incarnate, technically, but variants exist...), or marshal (cost you your full base attack, but is otherwise useful), or more divine mind/knight/soulborn.

Downside is that it's a bit MAD, but okay.


Edit: noted that ToB classes are t4. In that case, straight crusader//incarnate is really nice.

[Goaty14]

Fun fact: Incarnate gestalts with everything.


Psion (Kineticist),


Only things we changed was putting Psion (with some extras) into Tier 1

Either you didn't say T1 was banned, I'm blind, or one of your buddies is breaking the rules...

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Since you mentioned Pathfinder classes, Oradin//Crusader would be a pretty fun frontline support. Witch//Warlock/Binder for more debuff/utility as well.

[Nifft]

Only things we changed was putting Psion (with some extras) into Tier 1, Beguiler and Dread Necro into T 2, Warblade and Crusader into T 4 and Paladin (since we use the PF one) into T4.

Otherwise I cant seem to find differences. :smallcool: I don't see a bunch of things in the original tier list so what's the rating for...

Totemist?
Incarnate?
Dragonfire Adept?
Death Master?
Battledancer?
Dragon Shaman?

Warshaper?
Chameleon?
Master of Many Forms?
Telflammar Shadowpouncer?
Runescarred Berserker?

[Rebel7284]

Here is an interesting thought:
Factotum // Healer.
You end up with a very flexible character that can cast two spells per turn off of a lackluster list, BUT, that list can be expanded with several prestige classes to be less terrible. You will never be as flexible as a sorcerer, but you will certainly offer a lot of support in and out of combat.

[Gnaeus]

Here is an interesting thought:
Factotum // Healer.
You end up with a very flexible character that can cast two spells per turn off of a lackluster list, BUT, that list can be expanded with several prestige classes to be less terrible. You will never be as flexible as a sorcerer, but you will certainly offer a lot of support in and out of combat.

That’s a good one. Certainly, for a support character if healer is T5, you want healer as your T5 side. DFA// healer is also good. Bard//healer. Wildshape Ranger//healer. Crusader//healer.

[GrayDeath]

Fun fact: Incarnate gestalts with everything.


Either you didn't say T1 was banned, I'm blind, or one of your buddies is breaking the rules...

Kineticist is a blaster, so we Consider it a tier lower.
Should have mentioned that earlier.



Since you mentioned Pathfinder classes, Oradin//Crusader would be a pretty fun frontline support. Witch//Warlock/Binder for more debuff/utility as well.

Aside from the gunslinger there are no pf classes. And we only used that one because.there was.jo.good.alternative for a gunner in 3.5 that we could.find....


I don't see a bunch of things in the original tier list so what's the rating for...

Totemist? T3
Incarnate? T4
Dragonfire Adept? T4
Death Master? T2
Battledancer? T4
Dragon Shaman? T4 or 5

Warshaper?
Chameleon?
Master of Many Forms?
Telflammar Shadowpouncer?
Runescarred Berserker?

Edited in the tiers above.

Prestige classes do not have a tier, just a "raises or lowers tiers", and as I said, as long as it does not clearly raise your tier, it's OK, if it's not a full caster prc.



Thanks for the.suggestions so far. Healer dfa sounds interesting indeed.

Keep em coming

[Nifft]

If you don't mind being Good, then Crusader // Healer is a nice mix.

As a pounce-tank, you could go Totemist // Fighter (standard uber-charger feats).

If you need skills & tricks, then a Rogue // Incarnate or a Scout // Incarnate can handle a lot of situations.

One very simple character which grants passive buffs might be a Dragonfire Adept // Marshal.

[GrayDeath]

First: Thanks for the many ifdeas. I personally would probably have gone the Marshal//DFA Route, for massing support and ease of play.

As for your other suggestions, Nifft: He wants suppoert. So no Uberchargers.
The Party is evil to neutrall, so no healers. And my Character is a Rogua/Warblade, so no real need for a skill monkey. :)



Also an Update:


He thinks of being a Paladin of Tyranny/Bard (The GM has come up with a slight Bard Variation that can be lawful).
WHile different to the things suggested so far, he really digs the flavour.

Assuming the DM fully condones it (being on vacation atm we dont know if he does, he has nothing against he general concept though): Suggestions? Pitfalls? Prestige CLass Suggestions (he does not want to be more casting focussed than the Bard in general, additional noncasting Powers are OK though).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Inspire Courage can be optimized with Song of the Heart (flat +1 bonus), a masterwork horn (AEG), Song of the White Raven, Battle Howler of Gruumsh (not a good PrC for a Lawful PC, though :smalltongue:), and Words of Creation (not good for a Good PC).