Damage: grapple, gauntlets, and armor spikes

[Nebuul]

Armor Spikes:

You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

Ok, so if using armor spikes and regular gauntlets (not spiked gauntlets because they are considered armed and thus you can't use them for the "deal damage" grapple option), a medium creature would do:

1d3 + Strength (unarmed) lethal bludgeon + 1d6 + ??? (armor spikes) lethal piercing

???: What I don't know is if any strength damage is applied to the armor spikes. Any thoughts?

[DrMotives]

Nope. When you grapple, you can add a single natural weapon, light weapon, or an unarmed strike in addition to the grapple damage itself. Armor spikes are listed as a light weapon, so you can't also throw in punches from the gauntlet. Doesn't matter if you call that gauntlet an unarmed strike or a light weapon either; the spikes are your (grapple + 1 allowed weapon) attack you can do.

As a light weapon, spikes would add 1/2 str if an offhand attack, or full str bonus if a primary. I would grapple counts as primary, so full str bonus.

[Segev]

Noteworthy, though, that armor spikes can be an "off-hand weapon" even when you're wielding a two-handed weapon, allowing you to use TWF and a two-handed weapon together. If you like and your GM doesn't glower at you menacingly for the suggestion.

[Nebuul]

Nope. When you grapple, you can add a single natural weapon, light weapon, or an unarmed strike in addition to the grapple damage itself. Armor spikes are listed as a light weapon, so you can't also throw in punches from the gauntlet. Doesn't matter if you call that gauntlet an unarmed strike or a light weapon either; the spikes are your (grapple + 1 allowed weapon) attack you can do.

As a light weapon, spikes would add 1/2 str if an offhand attack, or full str bonus if a primary. I would grapple counts as primary, so full str bonus.

Armor spikes have a special property to which I'm referring in this post. I'm not talking about attacking with them as you would via the rules for attacking with a light weapon while grappling. Armor spikes let you add additional piercing damage to your damage if you choose to make an opposed grapple check vs your opponent to do damage, which normally just allows unarmed damage. The question is if that piercing damage is similar to extra weapon damage, which would include either STR or 1/2 STR, or if it is only 1d6 extra damage with no stat bonus.

[DrMotives]

Ok, so rereading the description for armor spikes I see what you're saying. It says they add piercing damage to grapple damage. Then it mentions them counting as light weapons in other cases, such as attacking normally with them. So, based on that, grapple damage should be (normal grapple per size) + (armor spikes) + 1x str bonus + any enchantment effects of spikes. That get resolved as the grapple check's damage. Adding your gauntlet is an extra attack, which is then resolved with 1x str bonus on a gauntlet punch, as it would be outside of a grapple.

[The Viscount]

Ok, so rereading the description for armor spikes I see what you're saying. It says they add piercing damage to grapple damage. Then it mentions them counting as light weapons in other cases, such as attacking normally with them. So, based on that, grapple damage should be (normal grapple per size) + (armor spikes) + 1x str bonus + any enchantment effects of spikes. That get resolved as the grapple check's damage. Adding your gauntlet is an extra attack, which is then resolved with 1x str bonus on a gauntlet punch, as it would be outside of a grapple.

You're still misreading what the setup is. The purpose of a gauntlet here is just to change the unarmed strike damage (which is the "normal grapple per size" in your above) from nonlethal to lethal.

Nebuul, to answer your question, I can't point to any text exactly answering it but I think we can go by some general principles being outlined.
There are two ways to regard the damage from armor spikes. The first is that you aren't using the armor spikes like a weapon here, and Str bonus is for weapon damage rolls following an attack.

The second interpretation, which is how I would take it, is to regard armor spikes like constrict, since both are extra damage when grappling. Constrict adds strength, so you should also add strength to the damage from spiked armor. Grappling is not really dealing huge damage, so it's not going to break the game if you add it from a balance standpoint either.

[DrMotives]

No, gauntlet doesn't change grapple damage from nonlethal to lethal. It does that to unarmed strike damage, yes. But a grapple does grapple damage, plus an unarmed strike (or other weapon attack) may be added. A grapple with a gauntlet would be non-lethal grapple + lethal gauntlet strike. The grapple rules in the SRD make that pretty clear.

[Nebuul]

No, gauntlet doesn't change grapple damage from nonlethal to lethal. It does that to unarmed strike damage, yes. But a grapple does grapple damage, plus an unarmed strike (or other weapon attack) may be added. A grapple with a gauntlet would be non-lethal grapple + lethal gauntlet strike. The grapple rules in the SRD make that pretty clear.

The srd disagrees with your statement:

From srd:

Damage Your Opponent
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Is pretty clear that grapple damage does your normal unarmed strike damage, typically nonlethal. Gauntlets make your unarmed strike damage lethal instead of nonlethal. (Spiked gauntlets can't be used because they convert your attacks to armed attacks). It simply reiterates rules for lethal/nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.

Rules for gauntlets, btw:

Gauntlet
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

[Seharvepernfan]

Armor Spikes:

You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

Ok, so if using armor spikes and regular gauntlets (not spiked gauntlets because they are considered armed and thus you can't use them for the "deal damage" grapple option), a medium creature would do:

1d3 + Strength (unarmed) lethal bludgeon + 1d6 + ??? (armor spikes) lethal piercing

???: What I don't know is if any strength damage is applied to the armor spikes. Any thoughts?

Ive asked this before a few times in various threads. For armor spikes, it's just 1d6 without strength, but it's unclear if you get their enhancement bonus or not (I think you should). Note that the gauntlets don't matter; you're not using the gauntlets when you make a grapple check; it's just your unarmed damage.

[Nebuul]

Note that the gauntlets don't matter; you're not using the gauntlets when you make a grapple check; it's just your unarmed damage.

. . .

Please re-read gauntlets. Gauntlets make your unarmed strike damage lethal. Grapple uses your unarmed strike damage. Ergo, gauntlets make grapple damage lethal.

[Seharvepernfan]

Please re-read gauntlets. Gauntlets make your unarmed strike damage lethal. Grapple uses your unarmed strike damage. Ergo, gauntlets make grapple damage lethal.

Nope. Gauntlets make your unarmed damage lethal when you make an unarmed strike, which a grapple check is not, and even then, only when you use your hands.

[Nebuul]

Nope. Gauntlets make your unarmed damage lethal when you make an unarmed strike, which a grapple check is not, and even then, only when you use your hands.

The rules for grapple literally say (as in the literature has this exact phrase): While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike.

If you believe grapple does not do unarmed strike damage, which gauntlets make lethal, then you are using house rules.

[Seharvepernfan]

The rules for grapple literally say (as in the literature has this exact phrase): While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike.

Yes, equivalent to. Your unarmed strike damage is 1d3+str subdual damage. When you make an unarmed strike with a gauntlet, it becomes lethal. A grapple check is not an unarmed strike with a gauntlet. It's like we're not reading the same words.

[The Viscount]

Yes, equivalent to. Your unarmed strike damage is 1d3+str subdual damage. When you make an unarmed strike with a gauntlet, it becomes lethal. A grapple check is not an unarmed strike with a gauntlet. It's like we're not reading the same words.

And the fact that monks can do lethal or nonlethal damage with their grapples without penalty is just... coincidence? The following text is found within the heading for "damage your opponent."

Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Are you saying that this is a special rule that means that monks can deal lethal damage in grapples without penalty by virtue of being monks alone?

[Seharvepernfan]

Are you saying that this is a special rule that means that monks can deal lethal damage in grapples without penalty by virtue of being monks alone?

Of course. Why would you think otherwise?

Did you notice that it made a special exception for monks, but not for people who merely have Improved Unarmed Strike?

[Nebuul]

Of course. Why would you think otherwise?

Did you notice that it made a special exception for monks, but not for people who merely have Improved Unarmed Strike?

The exception for monks is simply clarification. The very first line where it explicitly stats that grape damage uses the characters unarmed strike damage is all that was required. Stating that monks can swap between lethal/nonlethal without a penalty is simply a reminder because it adds no new rules due to the aforementioned first sentence.

[Segev]

grape damage

A most delicious type of damage.

[Seharvepernfan]

It says "Exception", not "one example of an exception". It would list gauntlets and improved unarmed strike. You've brought no new information; you're just interpreting it your way again.

What is the difference between making a grapple check to hurt somebody with the unarmed damage vs. using the "attack your opponent" option which lists "unarmed strikes" as one of the options? I don't mean mechanically; you'd use which ever one had the better math. I mean in-game, what is the difference? One is squeezing them (like a choking headlock) or perhaps snapping limbs and joints (like a wrestler or judo specialist could do), the other is punching them while grappling. How does a gauntlet help you with the first one? Armor spikes are obvious, but the gauntlets? Just think about it.

I'll admit I was surprised to find out that Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't get better lethal grapples; I had always assumed it did. That's probably why "grapple" is an example for weapon focus and specialization.

[The Viscount]

That's probably why "grapple" is an example for weapon focus and specialization.

What do you mean by this?

[Seharvepernfan]

What do you mean by this?

Crack open the PHB and read Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Grapple is listed as one of the options when you pick these feats.

[Nebuul]

You've brought no new information; you're just interpreting it your way again.

Irony

Ok, let's say there was this description about some new ability:


Your ability works equivalently to a magical death effect. When you use your ability, the target must make a willpower save or die instantly. Exception: creatures protected by death ward are automatically immune and do not have to roll a save because death ward grants immunity to magical death effects.

By your argument, every other source of immunity to magical death effects would not work on this ability, which is completely wrong.

[The Viscount]

Crack open the PHB and read Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Grapple is listed as one of the options when you pick these feats.

How incredibly strange. That opens up a bit of a problem since it's not possible to be proficient in grapples.