What Would You Change: Druid

[Specter]

Back with these threads, now let's talk about what we would change about the old worshipper. No answers are right or wrong.

BASE
Surprisingly, nothing. Druid has so little base features that it's hard to find fault with any of them. If anything, being dropped to 0 hit points in wild shape brings almost no punishment for the player.

LAND
Natural Recovery: Remove 'you can't use this feature again until you finish a Long Rest.' Wizard's Arcane Recovery can be done in any short rest, and since this is probably the main feature of Land, so should they.

Level 6 - Something other than Land's Stride needs to happen. Ranger gets this at level 8 along with an ASI, so it's definitely not enough on its own. Maybe bonus spell slots?

MOON
Circle Forms: remove 'you can use your Wild Shape to transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1.' Turning into a bear at level 2 is too much power, regardless of the fact that it's not that good afterwards.

Elemental Wild Shape: add 'you can stay in this form for a number of minutes equal to half your druid level'. Turning into an elemental, for hours, is too much, I think.

That's it for me. Back to you.

[MxKit]

Base: Actually nothing, or at least very little. I'd add wooden armor as an option right into the PHB, though, or at least into the DMG. Like, a specific cost suggestion for getting a wooden version of the basic armor types listed, like +50% of the base cost of the armor, so that a wooden breastplate would be 600 gp. And/or ideas on where such things might be sold. I'd also probably also remove the "druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal" from the multiclassing proficiencies section, because I think an argument can be made that a Lv12 Cleric who's worn heavy armor made of metal up to that point losing that as soon as they take one level of Druid is ridiculous, and that should probably textually be a "this is up to the DM" thing.

I'd probably also take the Shepherd's Speech of the Woods ability and just give it to Druids as a class ability in general. It seems like it just fits the class as a whole rather than specifically that subclass. And maybe give them a few more spell options that don't require Concentration. Nothing major or flashy, and not too many of them, but just a little to ease that strain.

Land: I can actually agree that Natural Recovery should probably be tied to short rests rather than long rests.

Shepherd: Give them something to replace Speech of the Woods. Maybe give a slight buff to the Unicorn Spirit Totem, since as it is it's obviously meant to be a versatile mix of Bear and Hawk while not being quite as good as just choosing one or the other, but because of that it just... seems like you should always be choosing one or the other instead of Unicorn.

General: I'd also probably add in an alternate use of Wild Shape for each non-Moon subclass, like Spores Druid has. Land, Dreams, and Shepherd should all get their own options; Moon's "option" is getting access to superior wild shaping, since that's the focus of that subclass. I'm not sure what those alternate uses would be, but I'm convinced that each Druid Circle should have one.

[Dr. Cliché]

LAND
Natural Recovery: Remove 'you can't use this feature again until you finish a Long Rest.' Wizard's Arcane Recovery can be done in any short rest, and since this is probably the main feature of Land, so should they.

You're actually asking for something better than Wizards get.

Arcane Recovery: "Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover."

I suppose you could ask for more consistent wording. :smallwink:

[Avonar]

My big thing would be to give Druids more special non-concentration spells. They have a really fun spell list but the amount that are concentration just seems very restrictive.

It would encourage more people to try something other than Moon.

[thoroughlyS]

I think Zman's tweak to Archdruid makes it much more reasonable while still being an impressive capstone.


At 20th level, you can use your Wild Shape an unlimited number of times to transform into any beast that has a challenge rating of 2 or lower.

I'm uncertain if it is supposed to remove the second paragraph or not, but I don't see a problem with keeping it.




LAND
Natural Recovery: Remove 'you can't use this feature again until you finish a Long Rest.' Wizard's Arcane Recovery can be done in any short rest, and since this is probably the main feature of Land, so should they.
As mentioned above, Arcane Recovery is also limited, specifically to "once per day". If anything, I think Arcane Recovery should be reworded to "once per long rest" like Natural Recovery.


Level 6 - Something other than Land's Stride needs to happen. Ranger gets this at level 8 along with an ASI, so it's definitely not enough on its own. Maybe bonus spell slots?
Maybe a preview version of Beast Spells?

MINOR BEAST SPELLS
Beginning at 6th level, you can cast any druid cantrip you know in any shape you assume using Wild Shape.
You can perform the somatic and verbal components of a druid cantrip while in a beast shape, but you aren’t able to provide material components.

[Protato]

I would give more instant spells. Erupting Earth is pretty okay in spite of being behind the damage curve, but its still a good Fireball/Lightning Bolt equivalent for a class that does less direct damage than other casters. More spells like that would be good. Also, alternate wildshape uses would be very handy.

[Snowbluff]

Do nothing with Moon.

Make the other versions as interesting as Moon Druid. How? Don't ask me. If I had an answer, I wouldn't think it was impossible.

[zinycor]

I would make so Moon druids lose the spellcasting ability, in exchange, They wuld get a lot more features to transform themselves.

[Pex]

Flame Blade not be a Concentration spell. You're in melee. You're going to get hit. You can lose the spell before you get any real use out of it. I actually prefer all the melee weapon buff spells not be Concentration. The whole point is to be engaged in battle. It's not fair you can lose the spell after one round of use or even before you get to use it at all.

[Ganymede]

I'd prefer Wild Shape to be more akin to the transformation of the Circle of Spores. Replace transforming into something inside of the Monster Manual with a handful of intuitive perks (gain x temporary HP, a fly, swim, or burrow speed, and a natural attack of some sort).

[OracularPoet]

I started this thread a while back, and then didn’t reply at all to it like a big jerk (belated thank you to all and sundry).

<... this domain ...>forums/showthread.php?538282-Land-Druid-twist&p=22447333 (mangling url because I have too few posts to be allowed to embed links)

tl;dr allow Land Druids to re-attune favored terrain.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

The problem with changing the druid is it has so many potential roles that it either needs a mix and match system ala the warlock or being able to double down on your specific role.

Personally I love the way that the warlock class is designed. Choose how you got your power. Land, Fey, Beast. Then choose how you use your powers. Guardian, Emissary, or Hunter. Then choose abilities that complement your chosen playstyle, Similar to invocations.

And last but not least, Let me wear my metal armor.

[Errata]

I would make so Moon druids lose the spellcasting ability, in exchange, They wuld get a lot more features to transform themselves.

That's not a subclass. It's a whole new class. I think a martial shapeshifter class could work well. Just don't call it a druid though. They'd choose a base animal type as their subclass and accumulate new and more powerful physical characteristics from that creature as they level up. There'd be a large list of animal choices, even more than cleric domains, but the creatures would have many of their features in common with one another, in unique permutations. The base class could get mutations at certain levels to allow them to pick from a list of minor augmentations (comparable to warlock invocations or half feats) that could be applied to any animal type, though there may be prerequisites limiting it.

The way druid shapeshifting works is fundamentally limited and doesn't work well with multiclassing or your allies abilities. A martial character that can incorporate animal characteristics into their form would be a more flexible way to deal with it. Druids are too powerful as spellcasters to make druid shapeshifting too much more powerful, but you can't take away something as fundamental as spellcasting from the base class and still have it be the same class.

[Luccan]

General: I'd also probably add in an alternate use of Wild Shape for each non-Moon subclass, like Spores Druid has. Land, Dreams, and Shepherd should all get their own options; Moon's "option" is getting access to superior wild shaping, since that's the focus of that subclass. I'm not sure what those alternate uses would be, but I'm convinced that each Druid Circle should have one.

I'm not so sure. That alt-use seems to be Spores' thing, to make a more warrior druid that doesn't actually Wild Shape. Still, if I were to try:

Land would get benefits based on their chosen land (seems obvious). Things like an Underdark druid gaining a climb speed and advantage on Stealth checks for 10 minutes, maybe. Thinking it out fully for each land is a lot more work than I want to put in right now.

Shepherd... It would need to either tie in with your totems or with your summoned beasts. Maybe spend a wild shape to improve your beasts? Or your totem? Both?

Dreams. Coming up short on this one. I feel like it should up their mobility, since they get that ranged heal and their mobility is only increased once they hit level 10, but that heal works in Wild Shape so... Maybe like a healing burst? Only effects allies within X feet, works as a bonus action? Have it do more healing than Balm of the Summer Court, to give you a reason to use it.

[JellyPooga]

1) Base Druid loses Wild Shape. Not every nature priest should be forced to know how to turn into an animal. There are spells for that. Possibly add some kind of Lesser Polymorph that duplicates, in part, the utility aspect of Wild Shape (but as a spell...and yes, I'm aware of Alter Self).

2) Circle of Moon adds Shapeshifter; a modular ability that buffs stats and grants additional attack and movement types X times/rest rather than replacing stats outright. These would be applicable while Polymorphed, allowing Moon Druids to adopt a kind of "dire" version of alt-forms.

3) Circle of Land gets a substantial bonus to spellcasting, beyond a couple of additional spells known and /day. I'd be happy if it were circumstantial (e.g. a bonus to casting in an expanding list of specific terrain). Not sure what the bonus would be, but it should make them stand out as spellcasters in their own right, more than "I can do what that guy can do too" (that's the Bards schtick).

[Errata]

Shepherd... It would need to either tie in with your totems or with your summoned beasts. Maybe spend a wild shape to improve your beasts? Or your totem? Both?

Spend a wild shape to summon 2 CR 1/4 creatures. These behave as if summoned by the Conjure Animals spell, but have a 10 minute duration and unlike the spell they do not require concentration. If you use wild shape again, including on yourself, any remaining animals from previous uses of it will disappear.


Maybe give a slight buff to the Unicorn Spirit Totem, since as it is it's obviously meant to be a versatile mix of Bear and Hawk while not being quite as good as just choosing one or the other, but because of that it just... seems like you should always be choosing one or the other instead of Unicorn.

Uh, making them healing monsters isn't good enough? Temporary hit points are tricky to get right, especially if your party has any other means of providing them. If you're the party's primary healer and plan to do some serious healing, the unicorn aura can offer a lot more defense than bear. Hawk is decent, but the reaction requirement limits how much you can use it. The strength effect of bear is very situational depending on party composition and abilities. The unicorn perception ability is extremely situational.

Still I wouldn't mind some kind of boost to make these just a bit more versatile. Just adding more of them as options might do the trick, rather than making them more powerful. Why only 3, and have them be so situational? Possibly they can pick which ones they have access to from a larger list, so they aren't paralyzed with extra choices during combat (druids have a lot to keep track of already) and don't have an unreasonable amount of versatility.

[Coffee_Dragon]

First, remove it from core. So now it's in a supplement for furries or a weird prestige class compendium, great.

Then, apply some general fix to polymorphing so you don't just bip back at full HP when "killed".

Then, phase in early moon druid shifting (CR 1/2 at 2nd, 1 at 4th and lvl/3 at 6th has been suggested).

Then, change Archdruid to something in line with other class capstones, e.g. "If you roll initiative and don't have a Wild Shape remaining, you get one, and be thankful."

[Spinach]

I'd prefer Wild Shape to function closer to 4e's wherein you add extra abilities and features of your choosing rather than replacing them outright.

[CircleOfTheRock]

Smooth Moon’s curve out a bit more; at level 2 the power is ridiculous compared to other party members, but at level 4 the ASI does much less than it does for other characters, and they’re still wildshaping into CR 1’s.

Make a capstone more helpful to the Land Druid, or just less helpful, period.

Change up Land’s later class features into something more helpful (so that they’re more like the 10th level Moon feature, specifically in how it interacts with Archdruid).

[Dr. Cliché]

What if Wild Shape was made more like Channel Divinity? The idea being that each subclass uses it differently - rather than all of them using it for turning into animals, even though only Moon Druids get any support for that ability.

- Moon Druids would be able to use it to Wild Shape into animals just as they can now.

- Land Druids could maybe use it to swap out spells or something.

- Circle of Dreams could have some sort of healing effect with it (perhaps able to cure some conditions).

Obviously I'm just tossing ideas around here, but the idea is that each druid subclass would have it do something relevant to their focus (like the Circle of Spores druid).

Any thoughts?



Do nothing with Moon.

Agreed.



I would make so Moon druids lose the spellcasting ability, in exchange, They wuld get a lot more features to transform themselves.

Wouldn't this work better as a subclass for a more martial class? Maybe a Ranger subclass? Or even a Rogue one?

[Luccan]

First, remove it from core.


Why? It's pretty standard in D&D by now.

[MaxWilson]

Smooth Moon’s curve out a bit more; at level 2 the power is ridiculous compared to other party members, but at level 4 the ASI does much less than it does for other characters, and they’re still wildshaping into CR 1’s.

CR 1's that just had an ASI/Feat. There's a significant difference between e.g. a Dire Wolf and a Mobile Dire Wolf, or a Brown Bear and a Sentinel Brown Bear.

[Specter]

Good points all around.

- well, if Arcane Recovery is also once per long rest, I think it would be much better if it could be done every short rest.
- If your party is mostly ranged, Erupting Earth is a godsend to delay the enemy. But the class could use some non-concentration spells additionally.
- Removing casting entirely? No way.

[Citan]

Back with these threads, now let's talk about what we would change about the old worshipper. No answers are right or wrong.

BASE
Surprisingly, nothing. Druid has so little base features that it's hard to find fault with any of them. If anything, being dropped to 0 hit points in wild shape brings almost no punishment for the player.

LAND
Natural Recovery: Remove 'you can't use this feature again until you finish a Long Rest.' Wizard's Arcane Recovery can be done in any short rest, and since this is probably the main feature of Land, so should they.

Level 6 - Something other than Land's Stride needs to happen. Ranger gets this at level 8 along with an ASI, so it's definitely not enough on its own. Maybe bonus spell slots?

MOON
Circle Forms: remove 'you can use your Wild Shape to transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1.' Turning into a bear at level 2 is too much power, regardless of the fact that it's not that good afterwards.

Elemental Wild Shape: add 'you can stay in this form for a number of minutes equal to half your druid level'. Turning into an elemental, for hours, is too much, I think.

That's it for me. Back to you.
Honestly, Druid is 100% fine as is for me.
If I really had to tweak it for it to fit my taste entirely...

BASE: I'd make all Druid able to Wild Shape with a bonus action, but then costing "both uses" at once (that way Moon Druid still has an advantage).

Land: I'd rewrite the Nature's Strike to make it crystal clear that Druid is basically immune to all difficult terrain created by spells which not directly create obstacles but just boost life's natural growth or similar.
AND I'd extend it to cover also any magically difficult terrain on higher level.

Moon: I'd boost the "healing through slot" thingy: add WIS modifier immediately, increase the die size up to 12 through steps on later levels.

Shepherd: I'd change the "extra hp per hit die" of conjuration for an "extra HP = half Druid level", topping it with another extra HP = WIS mod as capstone.
This would end as a very big boost to conjuration, probably overpowered balance-wise in theorycraft, but by the time Druid would create a horde of Wolves with 30 HP each, other casters get Wish, Meteor Swarms and the like. So you'd just make viable a concept of Druid that only ever casts only Conjuration spells.

[sambojin]

Get rid of the no metal armour thing. Just put a comment in that druids often use less metallic/more natural materials in their armour (that have been magically strengthened/hand-picked to compensate), with no in-game effect.

Give Land druids a set of channel divinity/wildshape options, of which you pick one, at level 2. Sculpt Spells (evoker wiz style, but for "Druid" spells), +1DC or +d4 damage on a spell, reroll a concentration save as a reaction, or cast from wildshape with no somatic/verbal/material problems all seem like useful options that would make them into the premier caster druids. At twice per short rest, it's a lot, but not unlimited. Even cast from wildshape isn't bad, because you're using up a lot of wildshape for it (in a low CR form), and that only coming in for free at lvl18 has always felt weird. You'd still need the materials, you just don't need them in hand, they get consumed as per normal though.

That'd give you the option of a useful controller/aoe'er (druids have sometimes annoyingly large aoe's), a blaster druid (magic nearly on par with wizards/sorcs), a buffer/summoner (keeping concentration is VERY important for druids) or a magic wildshaper (for funsies) if you wanted, choose one. None of which would drastically change how a druid would work, but all of which would make you really think about if you want a Land or Moon (or even a Wizard, Cleric, Bard or Sorcerer as a main "proper" caster).

I quite like the Spore Druid idea, and thinking of wildshape uses more as "natural energy" (aka channel divinity) is a good thing in my opinion. The above does that nicely, without being too OP. Even the +d4 damage on multi-turn concentration spells, which seems like a lot, isn't really that much in actual gameplay. They're also all powerful and regularly useful enough that it's kind of difficult to choose which one is "best", because they all do pretty awesome things for a caster druid, but in limited subsets of usefulness depending on spell and situation (like how options should be. Regularly useful, but not ever the best always).

You could probably bring the wildshape options in at 6th or 10th if you thought they were a bit too powerful, but I'm a fan of bringing in resource quirks and options early. The more you can use something, the more you feel like you "are that character class", and none of these are really that great. But wildshape is often such a niche ability for Lands later on, and they feel like such "normal druid casters" (even with natural recovery giving a few more slots and terrain type giving some more prepared spells), that this would pep them up a bit into what I tend to think they were meant to be. Good casters, with interesting choices and resource usage decisions. Kind of like all the other main casting classes.


Probably some other stuff that I'll think of later. Flattening out the Moon wildshape curve would be nice, but it's fiddly, and it actually works pretty well right now (by the time you're worried about "meh" beast forms, you're already a good caster).