[3.5] Unarmoured Swordsman

[Thurbane]

So, just curious.

Say I was wanting to make an unarmoured melee type, but not a gish or unarmed monk type.

What classes or combo of classes support this type of build?

I was thinking maybe Monk 2/Warblade X; taking Kung Fu Genius for Int to AC, and the feat that allows me to flurry with a sword?

Basically, I'm struggling to think of a reason why it wouldn't simply be better to go straight Warblade and just wear armour.

I'm a little stumped.

P.S. Specifically do not want a caster.

Cheers - T

[flappeercraft]

A Duelist seems to be a fit thematically, but it's a bit of a bad PrC so I wouldn't really reccomend it unless you're dead set on this. Maybe the reason the character doesn't use armor is because he wants to get hit? Karmic Strike works perfectly for that and combines well with Robilar's Gambit.

[Nifft]

Barbarian 4 / Fist of the Forest 3 -> Con to AC, Pounce (so good weapon support), and a nice bonus attack via Pounce + Snap Kick.

[AvatarVecna]

So, just curious.

Say I was wanting to make an unarmoured melee type, but not a gish or unarmed monk type.

What classes or combo of classes support this type of build?

I was thinking maybe Monk 2/Warblade X; taking Kung Fu Genius for Int to AC, and the feat that allows me to flurry with a sword?

Basically, I'm struggling to think of a reason why it wouldn't simply be better to go straight Warblade and just wear armour.

I'm a little stumped.

P.S. Specifically do not want a caster.

Cheers - T

Anything preventing you from going Unarmed Swordsage and just using a sword despite the class name? I mean, it gives up armor, but still needs light armor for the Wis to AC, but I'm pretty sure that was a mistake that wasn't intended, and that it was supposed to get Wis to AC outside of armor?

Alternatively, just play a character with such a ridiculous Dexterity that armor is problematic, and then jump into Duelist?

[Zaq]

Anything preventing you from going Unarmed Swordsage and just using a sword despite the class name? I mean, it gives up armor, but still needs light armor for the Wis to AC, but I'm pretty sure that was a mistake that wasn't intended, and that it was supposed to get Wis to AC outside of armor?

Alternatively, just play a character with such a ridiculous Dexterity that armor is problematic, and then jump into Duelist?

Yeah, I agree with the “armed Unarmed Swordsage” suggestion. I think that’s as competent as you’re going to get if you don’t want a gish.

Technically, Ninjas are expected to be unarmored and are usually expected to use weapons, but Ninjas are also terrible.

[RaiKirah]

Unarmed Swordsage, Monk, and Battle Dancer with spontaneous lvl2 arcane spells (Magical Training + Precocious Apprentice would do the trick without levels) let's you get CHA to AC three times with Ascetic Mage (CAdv). Three feat investment (or 3 levels of a caster class, or some levels of an own-casting PrC such as Shadowlord). Probably more effort than it's worth though


Edit: This also sets you up for Iaijutsu Focus and/or being a decent party face or Demoralize fear melee character

[Falontani]

I am curious! How many times can you get a stat to AC that stacks while unarmored. Cha 3x + Wis (unarmored swordsage) + Con (Fist of the Forest) + Dex (I would hope this one is obvious) + Int (that one feat that turns monk unarmored to int)

[Piggy Knowles]

Warblade/Iaijutsu Master/Eternal Blade is probably where I'd go with this. You get a lot of good Int-synergy and Iaijutsu Master's fighting style actually works well with Warblade and EB. I haven't really worked out an ideal build in my head, but it should be fairly straightforward. Luckily all the pre-reqs kind of work together. You'll need Aereni Focus to get access to the iaijutsu focus skill, but that's OK because Eternal Blade requires you to be an elf anyhow. Quick Draw/Improved Init are on the list of Warblade bonus feats that you get at 5 and 9, and Weapon Focus is a pre-req for Eternal Blade, so the requirements aren't particularly arduous. Warblade 9/Iaijutsu Master 1/Eternal Blade 10 almost writes itself.

Also, does the scorpion kama count as a sword? If so, this is a dual-wielding scorpion kama build I've messed around with previously that seems like it might qualify.


Silverbrow Human Monk 2/Paladin 18
1. Paladin1- Two-Weapon Fighting, Dragonfire Inspiration
2. Monk1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse
3. Monk2- Improved Initiative, Ascetic Knight
4. Paladin2-
5. Paladin3-
6. Paladin4- From Smite to Song
7. Paladin5-
8. Paladin6-
9. Paladin7- Serenity
10. Paladin8-
11. Paladin9-
12. Paladin10- Song of the Heart
13. Paladin11-
14. Paladin12-
15. Paladin13- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16- Paladin14-
17. Paladin15-
18. Paladin16- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19. Paladin17-
20. Paladin18-

ACFs: Harmonious Knight, Sleeping Tiger monk

End result: Dual wielding scorpion kamas with TWF and flurry gives you eight attacks in a full attack with +19 BAB, each one dealing damage as a 20th-level monk's unarmed strike in addition to +5 inspire courage (alongside DFI). Looks MAD right off the bat but you primarily just need to focus on Dex and Wis, which has the nice side-effect of also being pretty solid defensively.

Some interesting side notes: you have two sources of inspire courage, one weaker version from Harmonious Knight (which allows you to qualify for the relevant feats), that you get 18 uses of, and one from From Smite to Song (which scales far better but you only have 4 uses of). Song of the Heart should apply to both, so you can use your Harmonious Knight inspire courage to get a +2 bonus to attack and damage to help mitigate the attack penalties you'll get from TWF+flurry, stop singing (the bonuses last for 5 rounds after you stop), and start up a dragonfire inspiration tune for the +5d6 fire damage.

If you're in a particularly high-PB game, drop Serenity for Words of Creation. I play most of my games as 28 PB and fitting WoC's stat requirements in on a 28 PB game is ridiculously stupid, but with 32 or 36 PB it might be doable. Similarly if you're in a game with higher than usual WBL you can probably make up the stat requirements for WoC with items.

[The Viscount]

I am curious! How many times can you get a stat to AC that stacks while unarmored. Cha 3x + Wis (unarmored swordsage) + Con (Fist of the Forest) + Dex (I would hope this one is obvious) + Int (that one feat that turns monk unarmored to int)

The X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) has you covered.

As for the original question, there is the Draconic Husk ACF. It will give you a pretty good bonus to armor and some energy resistance. The only downside is that you cannot benefit from any other bonus to armor.

[RaiKirah]

@Piggy Knowles Re: Monkadin - Does Harmonious Knight qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration? My understanding was that it was one of those 'like [insert class feature]' situations, and thus doesn't actually give Bardic Music. If that's not the case that would be amazing, as there's a build I've been thinking about that would benefit significantly from this interpretation!

[Piggy Knowles]

@Piggy Knowles Re: Monkadin - Does Harmonious Knight qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration? My understanding was that it was one of those 'like [insert class feature]' situations, and thus doesn't actually give Bardic Music. If that's not the case that would be amazing, as there's a build I've been thinking about that would benefit significantly from this interpretation!

Technically no, from a strict reading both Song of the Heart and DFI don't work with Harmonious Knight because while you get inspire courage as a class feature, it's not actually called "bardic music." Sort of like how the artificer doesn't qualify for stuff that requires the trapfinding class feature because their identical ability happens to be named "disable traps" instead. I've never played with anyone who found such a usage problematic, though.

[RaiKirah]

Technically no, from a strict reading both Song of the Heart and DFI don't work with Harmonious Knight because while you get inspire courage as a class feature, it's not actually called "bardic music." Sort of like how the artificer doesn't qualify for stuff that requires the trapfinding class feature because their identical ability happens to be named "disable traps" instead. I've never played with anyone who found such a usage problematic, though.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification!

[tiercel]

Perhaps if you were going for an AoO-fishing build like Jack B. Quick (Karmic Strike, Robilar’s Gambit, etc) where you actively are dumping AC so that you can AoO more viciously than a standard full-attack, being unarmored would actually be a net advantage?

Otherwise, yeah specifically gain “+X bonus for being unarmored” and stacking away seems the general way to go.

[emeraldstreak]

Perhaps if you were going for an AoO-fishing build (Karmic Strike, Robilar’s Gambit, etc)

AoOs work fine with Monk/Decisive Strike. Best OK the Scorpion enchant for the sword.

[gorfnab]

If you don't mind using some fighting defensively options this build somewhat works as an unarmored swordsman.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

This build uses a number of the options mentioned in this handbook: A short guide to defensive fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting)

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available, choose two and then grab the feats EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) and Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Dragon Warrior PrC (Dragon #298)?
Full BAB, two good saves, d10, 2+ skill points, Wis to hit points, Wis to AC (deflection bonus), flaming greatsword, and mystical Rage (Wis-based, bonuses doesn't stacks with bonuses from other forms of Rage)
None of class features are working if Dragon Warrior put on any armor

[ExLibrisMortis]

I used the build in my signature, abridged to monk 1/crusader 1/incarnate 1 (getting that tasty monk bonus feat) without armour. Karmic Strike is really nice.

[MeeposFire]

Anything preventing you from going Unarmed Swordsage and just using a sword despite the class name? I mean, it gives up armor, but still needs light armor for the Wis to AC, but I'm pretty sure that was a mistake that wasn't intended, and that it was supposed to get Wis to AC outside of armor?

Alternatively, just play a character with such a ridiculous Dexterity that armor is problematic, and then jump into Duelist?

To be fair unarmed swordsage is not really fully fleshed out mechanically. It is fleshed out enough that you can use it with a few tweaks (such as allowing the wisdom bonus to AC without armor or even requiring no armor for that bonus). It is not in the same boat as actual alternate class features which are fully flashed out but it is more fleshed out than say the arcane swordsage which as I recall needs a little bit more tweaking to make it work right.

That being said I agree that it makes the most sense if a DM is willing to work with you and decide on how it works in the end.


Of course we could just go warblade and just say to heck with AC and just do what wizards and the like do and do miss chance. Eventually the minor amount of AC you are likely to get for dipping into various classes for mod to AC is probably not worth it unless you are going to pump those ability scores a bit. I mean how high are you planning to get your int score? Are you doing that without boosting your dex if so then you spent a level just to get back what you could have gotten by boosting dex.

Int is nice on a warblade but not usually something you boost a ton so I am not sure trying to get int to AC is worth it if you are not picking up something like manifesting.

[Piggy Knowles]

I decided to turn my earlier thoughts into a build, and I think it's pretty decent. Here's what I've got:

Elf, Warblade 8/Iaijutsu Master 2/Eternal Blade 10

1. Warblade1- Aereni Focus (iaijutsu focus)
Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Leading the Charges
2. Warblade2-
Sudden Leap
3. Warblade3- Quick Draw
Mountain Hammer
4. Warblade4-
Hunter's Senses, Wolf Fang Strike -> Emerald Razor
5. Warblade5- Improved Initiative
White Raven Tactics
6. Warblade6- Weapon Focus (katana)
7. Iaijutsu Master1-
8. Iaijutsu Master2-
9. Warblade7- Power Attack
Death from Above
10. Warblade8-
Emerald Razor -> Bounding Assault
11. Eternal Blade1-
Crusader's Strike
12. Eternal Blade2- Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
13. Eternal Blade3-
Moment of Alacrity
14. Eternal Blade4-
15. Eternal Blade5- Defensive Sweep
Clarion Call, Aura of Perfect Orders
16. Eternal Blade6-
17. Eternal Blade7-
Diamond Nightmare Blade
18. Eternal Blade8- Adaptive Style
19. Eternal Blade9-
Time Stands Still
20. Eternal Blade10-

Lots of maneuvers to make your oppo flat-footed to trigger iaijutsu focus, Int to defense both from Iaijutsu Master and Eternal Blade's defensive insight ability, the usual brokenness of eternal training giving you extra maneuvers as needed (useful for stuff like Quicksilver Motion or Strike of Righteous Vitality) and the absolutely insane island in time capstone. Probably in early levels it's strictly better to have some light armor, but from level 7 onwards you're better off running armorless.

This does sort of rely on you being allowed to qualify for Weapon Focus (katana) without actually taking EWP (katana). I'm a bit rusty on my RAW these days, but if a katana is treated just as a bastard sword then I think this should work based on the description of bastard sword, which states that if you're using it two-handed it is considered a martial weapon. If this doesn't work you can shift the build around a bit to account for it (Warblade 9/Iaijutsu Master 1/Eternal Blade 10, using the bonus feat you get at Warblade 9 to make up for the extra feat cost of EWP), but it means you don't become particularly good at being unarmed until ECL 10 and that's kind of a drag.

Worth noting that the later feats are easy to mess around with. I nabbed Thicket of Blades mostly so that I could qualify for Aura of Perfect Order, which in turn led me to grabbing Defensive Sweep as my level 15 feat, but both Defensive Sweep and Adaptive Style aren't actually required.

[Thurbane]

On a related note, what ways are there to take advantage of having a free hand (i.e. the character wields a one-handed weapon, which he can two-hand for power attack, but generally has a hand free)?

I'm aware of the Einhander feat, but there must be other options. Snatch Arrows? Improved Disarm?

[emeraldstreak]

The best way to benefit from a free hand is casting spells with somatic components.

[RaiKirah]

Get six levels of Warlock and pick up Disembodied Hand so your unused off-hand can go off and do other things for you.

[daremetoidareyo]

Have you thought of a snowflake wardancy dervish?

Human
1: Bard: artist or extra music, desert wind dodge
2: Hit and run Fighter: combat expertise
3: Fighter: mobility, battle dancer
4: Battle dancer: IUS
5: swordsage: weapon focus (scimitar)
6: Swordsage: snowflake wardance
7: Swordsage:
8: dervish 1
9: dervish 2: scorching sirocco
10: Dervish 3: spring attack
11: Dervish 4: cleave
12: Dervish 5: Pyro

I mean, it wouldn't be great, but the ability to take 10 on tumble checks and spring attack, you can set people on fire with your snowflake wardance dervish dance. And you could fuel your combat expertise every round...

[Dexam]

On a related note, what ways are there to take advantage of having a free hand (i.e. the character wields a one-handed weapon, which he can two-hand for power attack, but generally has a hand free)?

I'm aware of the Einhander feat, but there must be other options. Snatch Arrows? Improved Disarm?

Maybe Combat Cloak Expert from PHBII? It's not great by a long shot, but it's another option. Combine with Cloak Dancer from XPH for a bit of a theme, and it helps with the being unarmoured situation.

[Menzath]

I had a bard once upon a time that although they were deception/diplomacy focused did bardblade on the side decently, and the only reason they wore armor was for the glamour effect.
Who needs armor, when you have style.

[Wings of Peace]

I'd have to actually check to see how long it takes to come online, but have you considered an Iaijutsu Factotum armed with a Gnome Quickrazor? It's not technically a gish but it might be too similar to a caster hybrid for it to fit the niche.

[DMVerdandi]

A.Unarmed Swordsage 2 (Able Learner/Kung Fu Genius)

B. Fighter 1 (Power Attack/Greater Fortitude)

C.Lion totem barbarian 1

D.Battle Dancer 1 (Exotic Weapon Proficiency:Greatsword)

E. Fist of the forest 1

F. Warblade >>>14


Going down.

You get a nice amount of skills that are always class skills, Int to AC, Cha to AC, Con to AC, [dex to ac lol], Pounce, and then finish off your build with 14 levels of warblade.
Swordsage initiator level 11/ Warblade initiator level 17.

Now, actually having the stats to put into all those AC bonuses might prove difficult, but with 36 point buy
You can have:

16 str
12 dex [+1 bonus]
16 con [+3 bonus]
15 int [+2 bonus]
8 wis [0]
Cha 14[+2 bonus]

So that's +8 to AC, without armor at level 6 BEFORE stat increases by level factored in, and of course stat+ items.

[Elkad]

Remember, like all unarmored toons, your first major purchase should consider a L1 Pearl so the Wizard can share his Mage Armor with you. And maybe a third of his Lesser Rod of Extend Spells.

[Falontani]

If you look at the current Junkyard wars the first entry has full concealment, 20% concealment when that is unavailable, and int to ac not to mention the mobility needed to stay one step ahead of opponents. Switch out a few levels to take advantage of iajutsu focus and make yourself stronger with a weapon.