Phantom Thief concept build help

[Silicon42]

I recently noticed that a lot of optimization that goes on with 5e tends to be dpr oriented. For context, this was while I was in the midst of building an Eldritch Blaster type of character. I also then realized that playing dpr builds that can't really contribute much outside combat isn't all that fun for me. Sure it's nice in the moment, but whenever anything else is happening it really isn't all that memorable. So, I decided that I would try my hands at a character concept that I've been kicking around in my head on and off ever since I first heard of the trope/genre.

I want to build a Phantom Thief. For those without context, a phantom thief is the kind of thief that pulls off ludicrous, nigh impossible heists often after alerting authorities ahead of time and leaving a calling card behind. Think Sly Cooper, Lupin the Third, or Magic Kaito. The party is at level 12 and we have more than enough damage output. I usually play the rogue/scout, and I still need to be able to fulfill that roll, but I think I'd like to shift my focus away from damage and more towards control. That being said, having a decent damage option would be nice. The build needs to have at least Arcane Tricster's improved mage hand, so that's a minimum of 3 levels of rogue, and expertise in Thieves Tools, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth, with more expertise possibly in the face skills and the noticing skills being highly appreciated but not absolutely necessary. Any 5e official content is valid, as well as (for this campaign only) The (Not Really) Complete Tome of Spells. We are rolling stats, are allowed to make our own background, and our DM also gives us one extra feat to fool around with.

I've already got a few potential builds lined up including one that I think I might use but I want to see if anyone else can come up with something awesome that I didn't think of. I've thought about AT/Wiz for being less MAD and more expertise through Lore Mastery, AT/Sorc for Subtle Spell shenanigans, AT/Bard for being more of a skill monkey, and AT/Warlock. The build that I'm thinking of at the time of writing is in the spoiler below, but don't look until you have your own ideas. :smalltongue:


Phantom Thief Black Wing

Race: Elf(Shadar-Kai)
Best Stats: Dex & Cha
Dump Stats: Str & Int
Patron: Raven Queen
Pact: Tome

Invocations:
-Book of Ancient Secrets
-Misty Visions
-either One with Shadows OR
-Mask of many Faces
I use tome pact to get more cantrips like Guidance and Legerdemain (TNRCToS) and pick up a second raven familiar for the fun of it and help on perception checks/scouting.

Feats:
-probably 1 ASI
-Perceptive for Expertise
-Magic Initiate: Sorc to Pick up Entangling Scarf (TNRCToS) with a decent save

Skills:
-Acrobatics (Expertise)
-Deception
-Insight/Investigation
-Perception (Expertise)
-Persuasion
-Sleight of Hand (Expertise)
-Stealth (Expertise)
-Thieve's Tools (Expertise)

Key spells:
-Mage Hand
-Minor Illusion
-Silent Image
-Booming Blade
-Guidance
-Unseen Servant
spells from TNRCToS:
-Iron Scarf
-Entangling Scarf
-Creeping Darkness


Any other advice related to this concept such as magic items to look out for or how to RP such a character would be nice as well.

[Protato]

I think maybe Glamour Bard, in addition to Rogue 3. Even if you have EB, if you wanted weapons, a Hand Crossbow and a Dagger could be decent both mechanically (both are decent weapons, not for their numbers but because they're concealable) and thematically (hidden weapons, plus Joker in Persona 5 uses a TT33 Tokarev handgun and knife in most official art, could be a bit of a shout-out). For magic items, Gloves of Thievery is really quite good, its only Uncommon and has no attunement. Rod of Alertness could be good if you don't have Alert, and Elven Chain is decent armor for most anyone. Finally, while there's probably more, look out for a Cloak of the Mountebank, as you can use it to cast Misty Step and teleport around, plus its a cloak, and cloaks are stylish.

[Cespenar]

What about adding the classic Shadow Monk 6/Warlock 3 combo on top of the Arcane Trickster 3?

That enables so many shenanigans that it's not even funny.

[Vogie]

I was going to, ironically, also suggest RQ Warlock 6 or Shadow monk 6 - Being able to either BAMF into a shadowy place or turn into a Raven to sneak into places is excellent.

Misty Visions, Mask of Many Faces and One with Shadows would make great Thief Invocations

I don't think Book of Ancient Shadows (or pact of the chain) for ANOTHER familiar would give you much more benefit, especially since the Fauxmiliar from sentinel Raven will come back on a rest without any ritual.

Maybe Shadow Monk 6 / Thief Rogue 3 / Caster of choice X could also work as a core, unless you're all-in on the Mage Hand shenanigans.

Shadow Sorcerer probably isn't the way to go, as it doesn't really click in until Dimension Door comes on line.

[Silicon42]

@Protato
Glamour Bard doesn't quite fit the flavor that I'm going for but Mantle of Inspiration is a pretty good control option. I'll keep an eye out for the rest of those things.

@Cespenar
Shadow Monk does look cool, but a lot of it just doesn't mix well with the other stuff, extra attack is not really useful for it and I could just as easily put on light armor in most cases. It also has even fewer ASIs and can't be the amazing scout/trap disabler because it doesn't get enough expertise, and would effectively make the character a 1/4 caster. If I was going for a non-magical version, it would probably be great!

@Vogie
I am all in for mage hand shenanigans. If I had the space for it and it wouldn't hurt my progression so much I would have also put in 3 levels of Sorceror just for subtle spell so I could turn into a raven and ride my mage hand around like a mini Tenser Mobile. As for Tome Pact, our party tends to have plenty of downtime (and an elf would have even more) during traveling around. The setting we're playing is the entirety of a small continent, so it can take a while to get from here to there. Thus getting, studying, and casting long ritual spells might be a good way to soak it up. In addition, Raven Queen Fauxmiliar gives a flat bonus to perception, while Familiar Raven could reasonably give advantage by helping with perception since that is one of it's skills which would be a further +5 to passive IIRC.

[the secret fire]

I don't understand why you would care about the Warlock's darkness/devil's sight combo if your goal is truly to build the kind of character who "pulls off ludicrous, nigh impossible heists often after alerting authorities ahead of time and leaving a calling card behind." Darkness/devil's sight is a combat exploit. This character sounds like one who wants to avoid combat entirely. Get in, do the thing, and get out without ever being seen.

You are going to want Pass Without Trace one way or the other here because it is easily the best sneaky power in the game. This means, at a minimum, either Shadow Monk 6, Ranger 5, Druid 3, or Lore Bard 6. You aren't interested in the Shadow Monk and don't sound like you'd be interested in the Ranger, so that leaves Lore Bard or Druid.

Lore Bard 6/AT 6 is certainly a viable option, but I would suggest Druid here, going all the way to 8th level. This allows you to transform into tiny creatures with flight speeds, swim speeds and burrow speeds. Hard to beat that for a dedicated infiltrator. You also gain powerful controller abilities (something you said you wanted), and access to a variety of highly useful infiltration spells, in addition to PwT. You get Meld Into Stone; you get Guidance; you get Enhance Ability; you get Freedom of Movement; you get Stone Shape.

I would suggest Circle of Land for the extra spells (also Land's Stride), with Underdark as your circle for Gaseous Form and Greater Invisibility. Throw 4 levels of AT on top of that, and take Skulker.

A Gloom Stalker 5/AT 7 would also be a highly effective infiltrator with very solid combat abilities, but you don't sound like you want to play a Ranger.

[Joe dirt]

3 level dip in warlock.... go human with actor feat and mask the many makes for the perfect conman be sure to take devil sight to overcome the human weakness of not seeing in the dark and for darkness/devil sight combo

[Mortis_Elrod]

Whispers Bard is probably what you are looking for for a lot of this and warlock is definitely something that can help too. For flavor I’d suggest using only daggers since they are easily hidden and thrown but you can always go a different pact option if you wanted. Here is the build suggestion:

Whispers Bard 6/ AT 3/ Chain Goo warlock 3.

So whispers Bard is gonna give you some extra damage should you need it, and some really good infiltration features as well as the bard base features and spells which compliment well here.

Shares a casting stat with warlock as well and is great supporting role in combat should you want to be that guy.

But let’s talk about the features. Words of terror is a great way to have someone removed from an area. You can deliver this just by talking to someone, so perhaps grab that invocation that lets you speak through your familiar. Maybe a gernerous DM will let you use telepathy to deliver this via Goo lock. Either way good fear ability that doesn’t have make you the feared thing.

Mantle of Whispers is a great way to gather information if talking is longer feasible or not preferred. To make the disguise better use the disguise self invocation on top of it.

Combine this with Catnap which makes you short rest in ten minutes and Bard spells plus your usually sneakiness from expertise in a lot of skills and Arcane tricksters magehandery you get a really sneaky guy.

I recommend either half-elf and then grab skulked or whatever you favorite feat is, maybe pick up something from your elf half through scag. But if your feeling really good Go Tiefling and pick up a Dex half feat.

Edit: Raven queen and Tome is also great. But sufficient Dex and expertise to climb and flip through things as well as gear can get you in almost as many places as flying around as a bird.

Make sure to get Stealthy as a skill feat

[Silicon42]

These seem to be some pretty good ideas so far!

@the secret fire
I totally forgot about pass w/o trace. I new there was something with my build that I was uncomfortable with.

Druid sounds fun, but what would be the motivation for such a druid to become a phantom thief? Grasslands also sounds like a potential fit in that vein, plus it would get haste. Too bad casting in wildshape doesn't happen until level 18, otherwise it would be a no brainer.

@the secret fire & @Joe dirt
I don't think that I mentioned anything about the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo. In fact I think it would probably be a bit too disruptive when it comes to team combat since it can black out the entirety of a good sized room that often has allies and enemies that allies are targeting in it.

@Mortis_Elrod
I'll have to look into those a bit as when I was thinking bard I was more focused on College of Lore and didn't check out others too much.

As for skills, I could probably move expertise from perception in this build to investigation since for trap disabling, I need to at least be passable with it and I've already got a bunch of bonuses to perception. I hadn't really given thought to the fact that flight would overlap most acrobatics checks, but now that I think about it, that is a good point. I'd have to move some stuff around.

Edit: College of Whispers seems just a bit too menacing for what I'm going for, but looks like a decent choice otherwise. Not so sure about stealthy since 10 feet isn't all that much.

[Mortis_Elrod]

@Mortis_Elrod
I'll have to look into those a bit as when I was thinking bard I was more focused on College of Lore and didn't check out others too much.

As for skills, I could probably move expertise from perception in this build to investigation since for trap disabling, I need to at least be passable with it and I've already got a bunch of bonuses to perception. I hadn't really given thought to the fact that flight would overlap most acrobatics checks, but now that I think about it, that is a good point. I'd have to move some stuff around.

Edit: College of Whispers seems just a bit too menacing for what I'm going for, but looks like a decent choice otherwise. Not so sure about stealthy since 10 feet isn't all that much.

Would it be less menacing if you whispered compliments in their ear as they died?

I know the characters you mentioned for Phantom Thief style are a more upbeat humorous sort than sinister but I'd argue that one of the biggest Phantom Thief is the Joker and he is very sinister though comical in a morbid way. Play off of that though i would suggest not over doing it to the exact degree as the Joker, might not be fun for the rest of the people you play with.



Edit:


As for the feat. Acrobatic is just as good or other Half feats that boost Dex, though quick fingered is a bit redundant when you are an AT. taking burglar can free up an expertise for something else. Skulker is also quite nice as is Athlete (helps climb and such also getting up from prone,), Investigator (bonus action to search and expertise plus +1 int), Empathic (can use action to gain advantage on attack rolls and ability checks if succeed on insight check), Actor (helps with disguises ), Keen Mind, (you know cardinal directions, the time, and everything you see and hear without forgetting it within a month), Perceptive (you ignore dim light), Linguist (languages and codes can be very useful when dealing with multiple races), Observant (combines well with linguist and makes it easier to notice things).

[the secret fire]

These seem to be some pretty good ideas so far!

@the secret fire
I totally forgot about pass w/o trace. I new there was something with my build that I was uncomfortable with.

Druid sounds fun, but what would be the motivation for such a druid to become a phantom thief? Grasslands also sounds like a potential fit in that vein, plus it would get haste. Too bad casting in wildshape doesn't happen until level 18, otherwise it would be a no brainer.

"What's the motivation" is certainly a valid question. I dunno...that's up to you. I can imagine a druid becoming a phantom thief in order to weaken organizations that threaten the natural world, or to sew discord between various urban factions and get them to fight each other. Such a character might plant evidence setting one faction against the other, sabotage organizations he views as destructive, steal information needed to get his enemies into legal trouble, etc. A druid thief could do a lot of damage in an urban setting. If he has enough city-dwelling enemies (certainly plausible), becoming a phantom thief might be the best way for a druid to further his ends, whatever they may be.

As far as the particular circle goes, grassland is good for Haste and Invisibility. Underdark is obviously also quite strong. Coast gets Misty Step and Mirror Image, Arctic gets Slow. Also worth considering if you go druid...at 9th level, druids get access to Scrying, the value of which I shouldn't have to explain.

[Greywander]

TDruid sounds fun, but what would be the motivation for such a druid to become a phantom thief?
See, this is the wrong question. The question you should be asking is, "How/why does a phantom thief have magical Nature powers?" There's lots of tricksters in folklore that have nature-based powers. Loki is all about turning into animals and then getting prego and giving birth to Odin's warhorse. What?

You could pretty easily fluff it as being some kind of nature sorcerer with it being part of your bloodline. Or maybe you studied nature to learn from the animals how to be stealthy, and you've deliberately studied Nature-based magic to help you with your capers. Maybe you actually trained as a real druid at one point, but left that part of your life behind you even as you continue to apply the things you learned. Maybe you're secretly serving the raccoon-god of thievery, Traa Shpan'dah.

While a lot of classes have flavor attached to them, they're really just a package of abilities. If you like the abilities but don't like the flavor, it's usually not hard to refluff it as something else while still making sense. Your DM might not go for that, though, so there's always that to consider.

[Daithi]

Here is what I would go with--

Raven Queen Warlock-3 (could go to 3rd for Pack of Tome and Invisibilty)
- Primarily for the +5 the Raven Sentinel gives to perception (see below).
- The Mask of Many Faces is also outstanding for sneaking around in plain sight.
- Invisibility spell is a 2nd level spell that is outstanding for sneaking around not in plain sight.

Arcane Trickster-3
- Skills and Expertise as a Rogue with the Mage Hand lock pick ability at 3rd level.

Druid-14 (this is where you actually get most of your abilities)
- Locate Object (2nd level) You need to find the stuff worth stealing. Only has 1,000' range for 10 min.
- Wind Walk (6th level) Use with Locate Object. Travel at 300' and search a sq. mile in under 10 min.
- Pass Without Trace (2nd level) Best sneaking spell in the game.
- Enhance Ability (2nd level) Advantage on DEX checks to get past mundane locks/traps.
- Guidance (Cantrip level) Add 1d4 to get past mundane locks/traps.
- Find Traps (2nd level) Duh... find traps --- even magical ones.
- Dispell Magic (3rd level) Get past Arcane Lock, Glyph of Warding, Guards and Wards, Nystul's Magic Aura, Symbol, Forbiddance, etc.
- Scrying (5th level) spy on area or person that has something you want to steal.
- Find Path (6th level) Use scrying to spy person and see the place he is hiding something then use Find Path to get the quickest path to that location.

Two other helpful spells are
- Knock (2nd level but not a druid or warlock spell, so would require another multi-class).
- Silence (2nd level - Circle of the Land Druid) Use on the Knock spell which is loud
(Probably wouldn't bother with these because of the needed extra multi-class)

You want Perception of 30 as soon as possible to find traps and hidden objects.
- Perception has base of 10
- Raven Sentinel adds +5
- Proficiency adds +2 to +6 depending on level
- Expertise adds +2 to +6 depending on level
- WIS bonus adds +1 to +5 depending on WIS
- Observant Feat adds +5
- Magic Items (Sentinel Shield, Robe of Eyes, Rod of Alertness) add +5

Take DEX and WIS to 20 as soon as possible.