Tentacle Whip: The Best Tripping weapon? Also, how to make it better

[Jowgen]

Tentacle Whip is a Symbiont from ECS p. 300, worth 8000 gp according to MoE.

What it is

This little bugger comes with 2 drawbacks. First, as a LE symbiont it might try and take control, and while it's ego score is a measly 5, some sort of measure should be taken to keep it compliant so no nat1 mishaps occur. Second, it deals a point of Dex damage each night (and whenever attached), but there are ways to prevent this (e.g. Strongheart Vest).

Now the good stuff. You can use it as a melee weapon that has 15 ft reach (counts as magic), while also being useable against adjacent opponents with no problem. It seems to require no proficiency, and going by one of the statblocks in the book it's a one-handed weapon you can use two handed for 1.5 strength and Power Attack. It also gives an untyped +4 to trip and disarm and +1 to attack.

But wait, there is more!

As a symbiont it gets share spells. It allows for the delivery of touch attacks at range (either "a natural power of the wearer or a held magical charge). Each hit comes with a DC 12 poison fro 1d4 Dex. And, quite deliciously, it has Blindsight 60 as well as telepathy to its host, so it essentially nets you blindsense.

So for 8000 gp, this thing seems to not only be a steal, but the ideal weapon for a trip/disarm character.

How to improve it?

Now I don't think the Tentacle Whip can be improved as a manufactured weapon, but one might be able to apply natural-attack improving methods to it, since it's own natural attack (the sting) seems to be the very same thing you use when attacking with it as a weapon. Now does this mean you can wear a Necklace of Natural Weapon and have its benefit apply to the tentacle whip? Or does the whip need to wear it? DM-territory there, I think.

What you absolutely can do is improve the tentacle whip as a creature. I am talking templates. And the application of these is aided by the fact that Share Spells has this line


The host and symbiont can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the host's or symbiont's type.

The following is a to be updated list of things you can do to upgrade your symbiont.

-Mineral Warrior. Gives the symbiont DR 8/Adamantine, improves the Poison DC by 2 by adding +4 Con, and reduces Int, Wis and Cha by 2 each, reducing its ego-score by 3 (although that is off-set by +1 from the DR and +2 from Earth strike, which is somewhat pointless)

-Half-Fiend. This adds Darkness SLA 3/day, as well as a slew of resistances and immunities. Downside, the Outsider type and assorted list of not that useful goodies pump the ego-score up.

-Stoneboned, Dragon 350. Result of magical pollution, gives +4 Str & Con, -4 Dex. Also gives powerful build (not sure if that's useful), as well as some other drawbacks that don't matter on a symbiont. Good for boosting the poison save DC.

- Corrupted, Dragon 350. Other versions of this template are found in BoVD and EttDWP. This is nice because it give +4 Str, -2 Dex, +8 Con, and -2 Int, -4 Wis, and -2 Cha; as well as some other nice things like Fast Healing and Poison/disease Immunity. It also technically grants a bite with a disease, but I doubt those apply here. This not only seriously ups the Poison save DC, but also kicks it's ego score down via all this mental ability penalties. And remember, an animal-intelligence symbiont is a less troublesome symbiont.

I am currently shopping for other templates that can be Acquired by a single Symbiont to make it a truly fearsome weapon.

[Falontani]

I have no idea if this is even official or not (I want to doubt it, but it is a lot to undergo for a single person)
https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/conversion-info/magical-items/special-rules/symbionts

I honestly think it should be converted to 3.5 as a feat. It would go a long way into making the Daelkyr Halfblood a viable race out of all these races.

With the Share Spells are you able to share a touch spell with the familiar while also channeling your own touch spell through the familiar? That would make some spells quite devastating. Also remember you can heal the thing!

[Jowgen]

I have no idea if this is even official or not (I want to doubt it, but it is a lot to undergo for a single person)
https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/conversion-info/magical-items/special-rules/symbionts

I honestly think it should be converted to 3.5 as a feat. It would go a long way into making the Daelkyr Halfblood a viable race out of all these races.

With the Share Spells are you able to share a touch spell with the familiar while also channeling your own touch spell through the familiar? That would make some spells quite devastating. Also remember you can heal the thing!

Pretty sure that is a homebrew conversion of Eberron stuff to Pathfinder. I agree symbiont stuff never really got the attention it deserved, but then again they are kinda inherently broken since they get their own set of actions each turn.

Not sure I catch your meaning on the touch spells. Yes, you can channel a touchspell through the Tentacle Whip to touch someone at a range of 15 ft. Makes Combust that much better of a metamagic base spell imo. You can also cast a touchspell on the symbiont and have it affect you as well as it (while bypassing type restrictions).

Share spells is really it's own whole optimisation exercise.

[Falontani]

Nevermind you can't

[Jowgen]

Nevermind you can't

Oh well, for stuff that you can do via share spells, there is always the Nasty Gentlemen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19914243&postcount=42)


Back on the enhancement topic, I did come across a rather interesting option, but I'm not sure it's workable.

The Barbed Stinger feat from SK.


You gain the improved grab special attack with your sting. If you hit an opponent of any size with your sting attack, you can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If you win the grapple check, you establish a hold and deal automatic sting damage (including poison, if applicable) each round that the hold is maintained.

Getting this feat onto the Tentacle Whip can be done via several methods, question is to what extent it works with it.

If the Whip is Attacking on its own, then there is no issue in it getting the benefit, but its own grapple check is abysmal, even with all the Str/size boosting templates applied.

However, if you can swing it that the person using the whip can use the improved grab and use their modifier, you've got yourself a rather interesting ranged grapple option. Thematically very fitting, but rule wise it seems a little DM-territory.

[Jowgen]

So I posed the matter of Barbed Stinger on a Tentacle Whip to the RAW thread, and it ruled against it.


No. When using the tentacle whip to attack, you don't attack with a "Sting attack" but instead with the creature itself.

The stat block of the Daelkyr on p. 278 supports this insofar as that its attack entry does read "Tentacle Whip" rather than "Sting", but I am not 100% convinced.

It is the symbiont itself that gains Improved Grab, not the creature wielding it. I think it stands to reason that the symbiont is still considered to have hit the target with its sting attack, even if it was wielded as a weapon rather than making the attack itself. Nothing in the text states that the "you", i.e. the symbiont here, has to hit on purpose or as a result of a successful melee attack, and the poison is defined as "Poison (Su): Stinger—injury". Also, the text specifies that the symbiont does "guide the hand of its wielder", so it does participate in the attack while wielded.

It also bears mention that the benefits of the Improved Trip and Improved Disarm that the symbiont has also get applied when it's wielded as part of its "Improved Attack" feature (i.e. +4 on checks, no provoking AoO, no retaliation). The one exception is the extra attack from Improved Trip, but I think the mechanics are sufficiently different to Improved Grab for that to not be an issue. Besides, the main point here is that RAI-wise it makes perfect sense. Not saying it's RAW tight, just that there is a good argument to be made at the table that it should work.

As for how it would work, we know that when the whip is wielded "the user's attack bonus and Strength are used", so those would apply to the Grapple. RAW, it would still use the whip's size modifier I think, but that seems a rather pedantic limitation.

An alternative would be for the host to stop wielding the whip at the moment the stinger hits. You are allowed to let go of a weapon as a free action. Then the Whip would be entitled to it's improved grab with its own numbers no problem, which obviously hurts the chances of success, but might actually be useful in that you could have your whip initiate a grapple mid-full attack so that you can then attack with Unarmed/Natural weaponry while the opponent counts as grappled.


EDIT: Going off this whole Barbed Stinger tangent (which isn't even likely to be that useful even if it works perfectly): what would be some good ways to acquire touch-attack based powers that could be channelled through the symbtiont? Touch of Golden Ice would be one, but alignment restrictions. Soul Eater's erngy drain would be another, but is a pretty heft investment.

Thoughts anyone?

[heavyfuel]

So I posed the matter of Barbed Stinger on a Tentacle Whip to the RAW thread, and it ruled against it.

I made this ruling.

While I do think by RAW you attack with the creature and not its sting, it seems pretty clear RAI that you attack with the sting inflicting Poison as well.

For an actual game, I'd let the sting count as the attacking part, including the Barbed Sting feat

[Jowgen]

I made this ruling.

While I do think by RAW you attack with the creature and not its sting, it seems pretty clear RAI that you attack with the sting inflicting Poison as well.

For an actual game, I'd let the sting count as the attacking part, including the Barbed Sting feat

Your expertise was most appreciated as always. :smallsmile:

Also I agree. The RAW seems to be on the side of no. There are arguments to be made that get into the nitty gritty of semantics, parsing, and ruling-based-on-similar-examples; but all those really do is make it even more of a DM call.

I honestly can't see a DM being fine with symbionts and feat-shuffling, but having a problem with adding the functionality of a Mancatcher when it makes perfect sense.

[Thurbane]

Gravetouched Ghoul might be interesting, adding a paralysis effect to attacks. Opens up some vulnerabilities, though, like turn undead.

It would also attack claw and bite attacks: trying to picture this on a living whip is a little...odd. :smalltongue:

[Jowgen]

Gravetouched Ghoul might be interesting, adding a paralysis effect to attacks. Opens up some vulnerabilities, though, like turn undead.

It would also attack claw and bite attacks: trying to picture this on a living whip is a little...odd. :smalltongue:

I effectively mulled this over before, since the Dragon 350 version of Corrupted also adds claws and bite, albeit instead of paralysis its disease (slimy doom, but with the bonus that the infected can't heal HP by any means).

As far as we know, the tentacle whip doesn't seem to have a head. It doesn't speak or eat, just draws sustenance through its tendrils from the host. Lets assume for ease of optimisation that these new natural attacks would appear adjacent to the stinger... best case scenario, the wielder would get the choice which of its natural attacks to use when attacking with it.

The base tentacle has 10 Cha, so if we want to speck it into the Paralysis effect, we'd need Cha-boosting templates... which actually gives me a lightbulb moment that completely takes us away from Gravetouched Ghoul:

Monstrous Vampire, from Ghostwalk.

We now have a Vampiric Tentacle Whip. The negative level ability works with the stinger. The poison's DC... does not seem to key of Cha, based on the sample Yuan-TI monstrous vampire. The blood-drain... again, the issue of how new natural attacks work on this thing. Best case, it can drain through its stinger. Would work beautifully with Barbed Stinger then.

There is plenty of fun to be had with Vampires once you don't care about the LA. Obvious Drawback though, BIG boost to the whip's ego. Also, it gets dominate.

[Falontani]

I effectively mulled this over before, since the Dragon 350 version of Corrupted also adds claws and bite, albeit instead of paralysis its disease (slimy doom, but with the bonus that the infected can't heal HP by any means).

As far as we know, the tentacle whip doesn't seem to have a head. It doesn't speak or eat, just draws sustenance through its tendrils from the host. Lets assume for ease of optimisation that these new natural attacks would appear adjacent to the stinger... best case scenario, the wielder would get the choice which of its natural attacks to use when attacking with it.

The base tentacle has 10 Cha, so if we want to speck it into the Paralysis effect, we'd need Cha-boosting templates... which actually gives me a lightbulb moment that completely takes us away from Gravetouched Ghoul:

Monstrous Vampire, from Ghostwalk.

We now have a Vampiric Tentacle Whip. The negative level ability works with the stinger. The poison's DC... does not seem to key of Cha, based on the sample Yuan-TI monstrous vampire. The blood-drain... again, the issue of how new natural attacks work on this thing. Best case, it can drain through its stinger. Would work beautifully with Barbed Stinger then.

There is plenty of fun to be had with Vampires once you don't care about the LA. Obvious Drawback though, BIG boost to the whip's ego. Also, it gets dominate.

If we want to start dodging books: A symbiont is a creature. A symbiont can attach to a creature and then provides it's benefits to said creature. Attach a Tentacle Whip to a Tentacle whip to a tentacle Whip to a tentacle whip. Increase your size by 1 (medium to large) to double your reach (30 ft), share spells with your symbiont to double it's reach to 30 ft. It shares it's spell with it's symbiont and so on down the line. So as a large creature with a 30 ft reach that can reach 30 feet from there, which can reach 30 ft from there which can reach 30 ft from there you get a 120 ft reach. And a hilarious looking whip.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Perhaps you can use Share Soulmeld on the tentacle whip. It'd need to be your familiar, which is tricky, and it needs to stay within 5' of you, which is hilariously easy. I think the Impure Prince's Lure Symbiont ability would satisfy the "familiar with Share Spells" requirement at most tables, even if it's not technically a familiar; the ritual to lure a symbiont is very like the one used to summon a familiar, and symbionts come with Share Spells by default.

Share Soulmeld opens up a nice set of options, including all the usual "double the soulmeld attack" options: Dissolving Spittle, Frost Helm, Lammasu Mantle, Lightning Gauntlets, Manticore Belt, and so on (and, by extension, things like Necrocarnum Circlet). Lightning Gauntlets allow the damage to be added to one natural attack per turn; if the whip qualifies as one, that's neat; if it gets its own use, that's a good way to get a handful of d6 twice per round (it's still not a remarkable soulmeld, but hey). Also notable are the ability to add astral construct Menu A abilities through Astral Vambraces, the ability to add the [force] descriptor with the Crystal Helm (does not require Share Soulmeld, but still useful for some things, depending on what the descriptor actually does), the ability to get nice trip bonuses with Mauling Gauntlets (does not require Share Soulmeld, but encourages the use of some meldshaping), the ability to stack two Necrocarnum Shroud effects (waist bind makes creatures shaken; two shrouds should cause frightened), and the ability to get an extra stinger through Wormtail Belt (effectively giving you three poisonous stingers in total). If you use venomfire, the stingers should be good for some nice damage.

Astral construct Menu A includes Improved Natural Attack, Trip (with slam attacks only, sadly), Cleave, and so on. Nothing really great, though.



Is it possible to summon a tentacle whip with summon monster somehow? That'd open up a lot more shenanigans with astral constructs, through Dual-Plane Summons.

[Thurbane]

The poison's DC... does not seem to key of Cha, based on the sample Yuan-TI monstrous vampire.

Actually, it should base off Cha:


Charisma: A creature’s Charisma modifier affects the save DC for any spell-like abilities it has. Use Charisma for anything pitting the creature’s will against an opponent, such as gaze attacks, charms, compulsions, and energy drain effects. Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead have no Constitution score, so any poison attack an undead creature has would use Charisma to determine the save DC.

[Jowgen]

If we want to start dodging books: A symbiont is a creature.

Question is whether "Symbtiont" and "Host" are distinct categories of creatures, i.e. one can't be the other. The RAW is obviously silent on the matter, but that's one way a DM could rule this away. Now lets assume it works...

There are a couple of weapons that give medium creatures 15 reach, but there any examples that show how this interacts with creatures that have naturally longer reach? Your example assumes that 15 and 15 are additive, but it could also be that the whip's reach over-rides the host's, i.e. always 15 ft from the square the host is in. If that's the case, then stacking whips won't add to the reach.

Another issue is that the primary host doesn't get direct control of a whip further down the chain. If whip one is wielded as a weapon, it doesn't get its own attacks, and thus can't wield whip 2 and so forth. Now this is still workable if we let every second whip attack on its own, but there be obvious drawbacks...


Perhaps you can use Share Soulmeld on the tentacle whip. It'd need to be your familiar, which is tricky, and it needs to stay within 5' of you, which is hilariously easy. I think the Impure Prince's Lure Symbiont ability would satisfy the "familiar with Share Spells" requirement at most tables, even if it's not technically a familiar; the ritual to lure a symbiont is very like the one used to summon a familiar, and symbionts come with Share Spells by default.

Share Soulmeld opens up a nice set of options, including all the usual "double the soulmeld attack" options: Dissolving Spittle, Frost Helm, Lammasu Mantle, Lightning Gauntlets, Manticore Belt, and so on (and, by extension, things like Necrocarnum Circlet). Lightning Gauntlets allow the damage to be added to one natural attack per turn; if the whip qualifies as one, that's neat; if it gets its own use, that's a good way to get a handful of d6 twice per round (it's still not a remarkable soulmeld, but hey). Also notable are the ability to add astral construct Menu A abilities through Astral Vambraces, the ability to add the [force] descriptor with the Crystal Helm (does not require Share Soulmeld, but still useful for some things, depending on what the descriptor actually does), the ability to get nice trip bonuses with Mauling Gauntlets (does not require Share Soulmeld, but encourages the use of some meldshaping), the ability to stack two Necrocarnum Shroud effects (waist bind makes creatures shaken; two shrouds should cause frightened), and the ability to get an extra stinger through Wormtail Belt (effectively giving you three poisonous stingers in total). If you use venomfire, the stingers should be good for some nice damage.

Astral construct Menu A includes Improved Natural Attack, Trip (with slam attacks only, sadly), Cleave, and so on. Nothing really great, though.

Is it possible to summon a tentacle whip with summon monster somehow? That'd open up a lot more shenanigans with astral constructs, through Dual-Plane Summons.

I don't think we can make a symbtiont a familiar, but I think it should be workable to polymorph a familiar (/mount/animal companion) into a symbtiont, and it should retain familiar status? If we can get the aberration type on the familiar otherwise, alter self would suffice.

So yeah, if Incarnum is in play and the focus, I think the Tentacle Whip could be quite handy. And it makes sense not in the least because Strongheart Vest is a good way to counteract the Dex-damage drawback. That being said, I barely ever use Incarnum, so I'm not adept at optimizing it.

Also, a quick check into the the Summoners Desk Reference came up empty on ways to summon them. Now if you templated the thing into an elemental, outsider or Fey, then you'd be able to use calling options afaik, but not sure that works for what you're thinking.


Actually, it should base off Cha:

Are you suggesting there might be an error in a sample statblock? Unthinkable!:smalleek:

[Falontani]

I don't think we can make a symbtiont a familiar, but I think it should be workable to polymorph a familiar (/mount/animal companion) into a symbtiont, and it should retain familiar status? If we can get the aberration type on the familiar otherwise, alter self would suffice.

Aberration familiars? Thare are several improved familiars, and also Fleshwarper!

[Jowgen]

Aberration familiars? Thare are several improved familiars, and also Fleshwarper!

Ah, easy enough then. Just checked, and Fleshshifter Armor (BovD. p 111) should provide convenient access to at will Alter Self, as the wording "produce an effect identical to that of the alter self spell at will" should allow for Share Spells to let it work for the familiar. 13,160 gp is not much of an investment when the ability is also otherwise quite useful, not to mention is saves you the actual 8000 gp of expenditure to get the Tentacle Whip otherwise. Though it does preclude template shenanigans.

Now beyond Share Soulmeld, is there any other significant advantage to having your Tentacle Whip also be your familiar?

EDIT: Just noted that Alter Self doesn't quite get you the whole Tentacle Whip package. May wish to substitute a Phylactery of Change (A&E), if that's on the table.

[Falontani]

Ah, easy enough then. Just checked, and Fleshshifter Armor (BovD. p 111) should provide convenient access to at will Alter Self, as the wording "produce an effect identical to that of the alter self spell at will" should allow for Share Spells to let it work for the familiar. 13,160 gp is not much of an investment when the ability is also otherwise quite useful, not to mention is saves you the actual 8000 gp of expenditure to get the Tentacle Whip otherwise. Though it does preclude template shenanigans.

Now beyond Share Soulmeld, is there any other significant advantage to having your Tentacle Whip also be your familiar?

It gets half your HP, your bab, and skills, can deliver touch spells on your behalf, and can be stuck on another creature. It's Ego would slaughter most others since it's a familiar. Also you could add a tentacle to your tentacle whip!

[Jowgen]

It gets half your HP, your bab, and skills, can deliver touch spells on your behalf, and can be stuck on another creature. It's Ego would slaughter most others since it's a familiar. Also you could add a tentacle to your tentacle whip!

It would also be more viable to let it attack on its own then, depending on your build. Touch-spell wise, it already gets a slightly better version of that (even through polymorph, as it's listed as an Ex attack). Signifcant bonus: Beyond letting you take over people you stick it on, Ego-score becomes a non-issue to yourself since your familiar is inherently loyal to you afaik.

[Thurbane]

Wow, never noticed that one before. 13,160gp seems a bargain for at will Alter Self. Nice.

[Jowgen]

Wow, never noticed that one before. 13,160gp seems a bargain for at will Alter Self. Nice.

Oh yes, it's a rather lovely item, especially when the Phylactery of Change is banned, though I've personally never needed it enough to spend the gold of an actual character...

On the topic of templates: is it possible/beneficial to afflict the Symbiont with Lycanthropy? There is a Curse of Lycanthropy spell in Complete Divine which would work if cast on a humanoid host, but... it looks like Spell compendium completely did away with the spell?

[Falontani]

Oh yes, it's a rather lovely item, especially when the Phylactery of Change is banned, though I've personally never needed it enough to spend the gold of an actual character...

On the topic of templates: is it possible/beneficial to afflict the Symbiont with Lycanthropy? There is a Curse of Lycanthropy spell in Complete Divine which would work if cast on a humanoid host, but... it looks like Spell compendium completely did away with the spell?

Greater Humanoid Essence + Greater Bestow Curse. Lycanthropy is well within the limits of a level 8 curse

[Jowgen]

So I think we largely covered what can be done by means of Templates and feats, with a side of polymorphing and familiar shenanigans.

One thing we haven't touched upon, at all, is items. A tentacle whip should at the very least be able to wear rings, bracers and/or collars. Anyone recall any items that might be nifty here?

[Falontani]

So I think we largely covered what can be done by means of Templates and feats, with a side of polymorphing and familiar shenanigans.

One thing we haven't touched upon, at all, is items. A tentacle whip should at the very least be able to wear rings, bracers and/or collars. Anyone recall any items that might be nifty here?

Collar of Dark Metamorphosis

[Jowgen]

Collar of Dark Metamorphosis

Seems doable. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEZWYXPvmS8)

[Falontani]

Seems doable. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEZWYXPvmS8)

It will be hiding in plain sight while attached to your arm! No one will see it, and it would be hilarious

[Holya]

How hasn't anyone mentioned the best item for anything with poison? A ring of Venom fire. The only thing is its additional damage to the poison so it brings up the question of does it require the creature to fail the fort first.

Hmm the corrupted creature template would work since it says any corporal creature. Its from BOVD tho so getting it approved could be a bit of a bitch. It is also a acquired and a inherited so it can be applied even after you get the tentacle whip if your willing to play up the made experiments with magic angle.

Dark creature through a collar of umbral metamorphoses would be another template you could stack onto it but it doesn't give it any stat adjustments. It would be more for the hide in plain sight and the cold resistance for if someone targets your little buddy.

Draconic also works but I've always seen that template as inherited so you would have to have a draconic Half blood if you wanted a draconic symbiot in my opinion. Though if rituals or wishes are a option you could add draconic to it since wish or its divine counter part can give inherited templates.

A elder Eidolon would be a bad template to work for on a tentacle whip but for the living armor or crawling gauntlet? It would be interesting.

Faerzress infused can work but you would A. Have to use wish or its divine counter part to give it as a inherited. Or B. Implant a chunk of magically radioactive ore into your tentacle whip. Since how you get it as a acquired is literally left up in the air as 'it was a experiment.' So it wouldn't up its stats but it would give it better saves and it would give it a better to hit/damage.

If you want it to be a template that directly benefits you and to completely destroy its ego score you could make it a living zombie.

As mentioned once already Mineral warrior is a template which could be used and its earth strike would still function since it only requires that the target be standing on the ground or a solid surface. Not that the mineral warrior itself does.

Radiant creature is a option if your alright boosting its ego score. But that again requires either rituals or wish/divine counterpart of wish to apply since its inherited.

There is also spell warped but that is also inherited. But it would boost their ego some thanks to the int bonus. But still if you got wishes lying around 'upgrading' your tentacle whip by template stacking in a legal manner would be a good use of them.

Now if we get into items there are a couple which would be reaaally nice on this. Like I mentioned above any ring or necklace or belt of venom fire. The collar of umbral meta would be nice as well since it could smack things while they are unaware of it being there so it catches them flat footed. A belt Dragon shards could also make it scary but it would be at a cost of reducing its health or con.. I can;t remember which.

I mean if you go through all the templates that can be added onto them even if some you have to jump through hoops for. Templating symbiots up is just generally better and more interesting them looking for that +4 sword or that +5 armor..

[Jowgen]

Oh yeah, strange venomfire wasn't mentioned. I do subscribe to the save applying, as that's the one thing that keeps it from being completely broken. I don't think 30000 gp for a continous item that gives +5d6 is worth it, but a Minor Schema for 5 hours/day at 6000 gp, or an Eternal Wand for 10 hours at 10900 gp (assuming you can get it despite the arcane limitation) is probably a good investment. If there be no druids/clerics around to just cast it.

I believe Corrupted from BoVD was superseded by Corrupted by the Abyss in EttDWP. It's good, but considering how much it boosts Ego I think the Dragon 350 Corrupted (which is different but does overlap) is a better fit. Stacking both may or may not be viable.

If we want to apply Dark Creature, there is a magical location in Cormyr - The tearing of the weave, which does it for a flat 5000 gp (works best if you got fast healing already). Usually carries the drawback of making you evil, but not an issue on this one. The cold resistance might be nice. As for HIPS... if we apply mineral warrior to both the host and symbiont, then the symbiont could function as a stealthy periscope while the host is burrowing underground I think.

I don't think Draconic is sufficiently useful on this one to be worth the investment, same with Faerezz infused and Spellwarped, and as you said Elder Eilodon isn't a good fit on this one (minus the cool factor). Living Zombie would be good for the most part (loosing Su abilities is kind of a bummer), but as the tentacle whip is described as "long, whiplike strand of tough muscle", I don't think it has the prerequesite skeletal system.

Radiant is dependent on the relevant plane being a thing, but Vivacious/Entropic could be broken useuful on the right character, i.e. someone with a Fort save of 24+ and Steadfast determination. Unlimited temp HP.

What are you referring to when you say "belt Dragon shards"? Doesn't ring a bell for me.

Anycase, thanks for all the input, happy to see someone shares my passion for this pet project :smallsmile:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Oh yeah, strange venomfire wasn't mentioned.
I mentioned it, actually.


Since symbiont is a subtype, any template that preserves subtype should preserve the ability to attach. The whip's telepathy and--strangely--poison are supernatural, but Channel Touch and its improved weapon characteristics are (Ex).

Changing the whip to a construct doesn't appear to be possible. Elder Eidolon and Effigy Creature remove all subtypes, Half-Golen doesn't apply to abberations.

Changing the whip to an undead creature is possible. It can even become a ghost, thanks to its decent Charisma score. I'm not totally sure what that would do, but at the very least it should save some money on ghost touch weaponry. Maybe you would be able to attack through walls, as well, if you have the ability to see through them (Earth Dreamer PrC gets that, I believe).

[Holya]

Ebberon has this set of items called dragon shards. You can implant them or wear them. More then a few given some.. Delicious abilities. Like your tentacle whip counting as a force weapon now.

Also I don't know what EttDWP is.. So err.. Yeah.. Abbreviations aren't my strong point. Also what book is that location tear in the weave in? Or is it a book itself? Since I've never heard of it.

Err from what I can find BOVD is still considered the 'offical' corrupted template since EttDWP corrupted creature isn't on any of the 'supported' sites like realmshelp and etc. That and the BOVD corrupted doesn't boost ego. It actually tanks all the mental scores.. The Dragon mag one doesn't touch mental at all but drops con. So Dragon mag corrupted creature would be really bad on the whip since it would lower the DC for the poison.
http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/corrupted.shtml

I was thinking about that bout applying Mineral warrior to the owner as well also nerfs your mental states. Depending on if your a caster or not it is viable but at the same time the best use is putting it on the whip and getting earth glide or a burrow speed in a different manner. Since lowering your mental scores is not a good idea if you have to make ego checks against your little buddies in the case of you having more then one.

Draconic is nice for the boost to the con and strength. That and the boosting of your whips AC which actually.. Hmm would be useless. Since I don't think AC plays a part at all unless its the living breastplate. The +4 against sleep and paralysis could save your ass more then once if you fail those saves since your whip would still be awake and could smack you. Or smack the enemy that is about to try and slit your throat.

Ehh its arguable about the bones thing. Since if it was purely muscle it would have a hell of a higher strength in my opinion as it would be like your tongue. It probably has cartilage or a very flexible spine but beyond that it wouldn't have a full skeletal system. So it comes down to the DM on if living zombie would apply or not. Though for some reason.. The only SUs on the tentacle whip is its poison and telepathy.. Which makes living zombie really lack luster on it.

Living Zombie on the crawling gauntlet tho works out really nice since you can have two of them and they are just normal hands. It works on a throwing scarab tho. Still lose the telepathy but since they basically go brain dead they wouldn't help you spot stuff anyway. And since you can have a scarab attached to a crawling gauntlet. You could have four living zombies on you at all times which means you would only age.. What half a hour each day?

Entropic isn't going to work unless you burn a feat to break it. Since you would need tomb tainted soul since our little friends can't attach to undead. So if your going dread necro or just taking the tomb tainted soul so you heal off of negative energy without being a undead it would be a nice fast healing 1 forever. Not something that would keep you super alive but its basically damage reduction 1 and outside of combat you never have to waste healing again. Though the ray would be nice on the whip I think their are other little friends entropic works better on. Like the crawling gauntlet or the tongue worm. Since one would be your hand and the other would never be noticed unless you purposely show it off. thus if your arrested or captured you still have yourself a back up weapon.

Radiant is plane specific and its dragon mag so that would be difficult to swing. That and the fact your whip has now become a rave would be annoying since it would be a 15 foot long rainbow colored light producing.. Gods now I can see a 'rave' set up by abberations and its just radiant tentacle whips hanging from the ceiling moving for the light show.

Vivacious is.. Nice? I mean you don't need to spend the feat and it gives you and everyone within ten feet fast healing 1. So it would make a good item on those that want to play healer but on a weapon? I think it would cause you to lose out on a point of damage every round because it would be healing the enemies too. That and it has the same effect as the positive energy plane so on your basic person a Vivacious tentacle whip would make you explode. So I haven't got a clue on how you would bypass the whole. It auras function like the positive energy plane without being a planar Shepard. Or even more so how you could go into town ever again without detaching your pet since commoners would just start exploding around you if you could make yourself immune to exploding from it.

Also the unlimited temp HP trick doesn't work. While the save you just mentioned would let you not explode. It wouldn't give you the bonus hp either. It also still doesn't solve the issue of commoners exploding around you. Hell think about what happens to your party with this combo.

Elder Eidolon is reaaally good besides losing anything based off of con. That and it insanity aura so you would need to be something immune to confusion which is a mind effect. But making a breed leech one would be really nice and since nothing in well nothing I can find says you can't stack breed leeches that means you could have two or a few more attached to your back or surgically implanted inside your body and have a +1 to fort saves and 5 temp hit points per.

This isn't even digging around in the Fiend follio for the other little buddies to see how they would play with templates.

Edited

Eh Elder Eidolon is arguable. But it does solely fall into DM choice there since it could be argued that since the Elder Eidolon is meant to be a mimicry of the creature and it retains everything not based off a con save. Then it would keep all of the abilities of the ceature that aren't stated as special qualities. Aka if I understand it right the base racial abilities like dwarfs tone cunning and such. This brings up the question of if you remove the symbiot subtype does that also remove all the stated abilities of the creature in question since the mimicry that is a Eidolon would have all the necessary equipment and stuff to function exactly as the symbiot did.

[Jowgen]

I mentioned it, actually.


Since symbiont is a subtype, any template that preserves subtype should preserve the ability to attach. The whip's telepathy and--strangely--poison are supernatural, but Channel Touch and its improved weapon characteristics are (Ex).

Changing the whip to a construct doesn't appear to be possible. Elder Eidolon and Effigy Creature remove all subtypes, Half-Golen doesn't apply to abberations.

Changing the whip to an undead creature is possible. It can even become a ghost, thanks to its decent Charisma score. I'm not totally sure what that would do, but at the very least it should save some money on ghost touch weaponry. Maybe you would be able to attack through walls, as well, if you have the ability to see through them (Earth Dreamer PrC gets that, I believe).

My bad :smallredface:

I agree, looks like Constructs are off the table.

Undead wise, I am still liking Vampire on a whip, purely for the cool factor. For Ghost... that is a whole box of rule worms that I do NOT want to open, personally. Goes for anything incorporeal, really, although we do have a bit of a precident in the Ghostly Visage...


Ebberon has this set of items called dragon shards. You can implant them or wear them. More then a few given some.. Delicious abilities. Like your tentacle whip counting as a force weapon now.

I will look into those



Also I don't know what EttDWP is.. So err.. Yeah.. Abbreviations aren't my strong point. Also what book is that location tear in the weave in? Or is it a book itself? Since I've never heard of it.

Err from what I can find BOVD is still considered the 'offical' corrupted template since EttDWP corrupted creature isn't on any of the 'supported' sites like realmshelp and etc. That and the BOVD corrupted doesn't boost ego. It actually tanks all the mental scores.. The Dragon mag one doesn't touch mental at all but drops con. So Dragon mag corrupted creature would be really bad on the whip since it would lower the DC for the poison.

Sorry, it's Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Great adventure module with an all-star cast of Demon lords. It's version of corrupted (p. 190) states "This template first appeared in Book of Vile Darkness. This version has been updated to v.3.5 rules and adapted for the environment of the Abyss.", so the status of the BoVD version is a bit contentious.

The completly seperate Corrupted template from Dragon 350 p. 46 is actually +4 Str, -2 Dex, +8 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis and -2 Cha. Also comes with Fast healing, and poison/diesease immunity. It is arguably the best thing on a whip. Combined with Stoneboned (same issue, prior article) and Mineral Warrior, it actually gives the whip animal intelligence. Not sure what Dragonmag version you thought I was talking about.



I was thinking about that bout applying Mineral warrior to the owner as well also nerfs your mental states. Depending on if your a caster or not it is viable but at the same time the best use is putting it on the whip and getting earth glide or a burrow speed in a different manner. Since lowering your mental scores is not a good idea if you have to make ego checks against your little buddies in the case of you having more then one.

Steadfast Determination can replace Wis to Will with Con, which mineral warrior boosts nicely. But yes, it is very much a combat brute template, casters ought to move on.


Draconic is nice for the boost to the con and strength. That and the boosting of your whips AC which actually.. Hmm would be useless. Since I don't think AC plays a part at all unless its the living breastplate. The +4 against sleep and paralysis could save your ass more then once if you fail those saves since your whip would still be awake and could smack you. Or smack the enemy that is about to try and slit your throat.

AC on the whip actually isn't a bad thing, as it can be attacked Sunder style, since it's an external symbiont. Either case I'm not saying Draconic isn't a plus on a whip, it's just that without a convenient way to apply it, I don't think the Con/Str boost and save bonus is worth the hassle. If one has nothing better to add then great, but otherwise...



Ehh its arguable about the bones thing. Since if it was purely muscle it would have a hell of a higher strength in my opinion as it would be like your tongue. It probably has cartilage or a very flexible spine but beyond that it wouldn't have a full skeletal system. So it comes down to the DM on if living zombie would apply or not. Though for some reason.. The only SUs on the tentacle whip is its poison and telepathy.. Which makes living zombie really lack luster on it.

If you applied Stoneboned, the whip would probably count as having a skeletal system, but as you said, the loss of Su makes it lackluster. Being able to talk to it telepathically is kinda important, and the Poison is Needed for Venomfire at the least.


Living Zombie on the crawling gauntlet tho works out really nice since you can have two of them and they are just normal hands. It works on a throwing scarab tho. Still lose the telepathy but since they basically go brain dead they wouldn't help you spot stuff anyway. And since you can have a scarab attached to a crawling gauntlet. You could have four living zombies on you at all times which means you would only age.. What half a hour each day?

I do like this. Like, a lot. But if we start trying to optimize all symbtionts at once this thread will get way out of horrible aberrant hand. :smallwink:


Entropic isn't going to work unless you burn a feat to break it. Since you would need tomb tainted soul since our little friends can't attach to undead. So if your going dread necro or just taking the tomb tainted soul so you heal off of negative energy without being a undead it would be a nice fast healing 1 forever. Not something that would keep you super alive but its basically damage reduction 1 and outside of combat you never have to waste healing again. Though the ray would be nice on the whip I think their are other little friends entropic works better on. Like the crawling gauntlet or the tongue worm. Since one would be your hand and the other would never be noticed unless you purposely show it off. thus if your arrested or captured you still have yourself a back up weapon.

I do see potential in entropic, depending on the build, though again best suited to other symbtionts beyond the scope of this thread.


Vivacious is.. Nice? I mean you don't need to spend the feat and it gives you and everyone within ten feet fast healing 1. So it would make a good item on those that want to play healer but on a weapon? I think it would cause you to lose out on a point of damage every round because it would be healing the enemies too. That and it has the same effect as the positive energy plane so on your basic person a Vivacious tentacle whip would make you explode. So I haven't got a clue on how you would bypass the whole. It auras function like the positive energy plane without being a planar Shepard. Or even more so how you could go into town ever again without detaching your pet since commoners would just start exploding around you if you could make yourself immune to exploding from it.

Also the unlimited temp HP trick doesn't work. While the save you just mentioned would let you not explode. It wouldn't give you the bonus hp either. It also still doesn't solve the issue of commoners exploding around you. Hell think about what happens to your party with this combo.

Au contraire, mon ami. The vivacious' aura works as Major Dominant, giving fast healing 5 and then 5 temp HP/ round with no listed limit. As long as you physically can't fail the DC 20 Fort save you need to make each round once your temp HP exceeds your regular exp, you continue to accumulate Temp HP. You get an arbitrarily large amount of temp HP, while I imagine your insides basically become a fusion reactor. Personally I'd rule that at some point you just become Vivacious yourself.

You are right though that this is NOT ideal on a whip or other external symbtiont. The idea originally came from an old thread of mine about Mindleeches, which don't have line of effect to other people.


Elder Eidolon is reaaally good besides losing anything based off of con. That and it insanity aura so you would need to be something immune to confusion which is a mind effect. But making a breed leech one would be really nice and since nothing in well nothing I can find says you can't stack breed leeches that means you could have two or a few more attached to your back or surgically implanted inside your body and have a +1 to fort saves and 5 temp hit points per.

I think ExLibrisMortis has the right of it with loosing the symbtiont subtype being a deal breaker. The symbtiont traits come from the subtype and regulate just about everything that deals with how the symbtiont works. And is the source of Share Spells to boot. Trying to make this work would be harder than making sense of a Ghost Tentacle Whip imo. Which is a shame because it's a cool concept.

[Jowgen]

I know this thread is basically done, but just wanted to add 2 small things I found for completeness.

First, we can have Anarchic, Axiomatic, Celestial or Fiendish template applied to the Symbiont by having it attach to someone else's familiar while their master casts Planar Familiar on them. They add a few points of ego, but give a couple of handy resistance, and most importantly let you adjust your Tentacle Whip's alignment to be in line with your own, which can greatly reduce the chances of ego conflict.

Second, we have the Horn of Gorgon optional material component from Complete Champion, which for 575 gp when used in the "casting of any spell that enhances Strength—whether by an enhancement bonus, a size increase, or any other means- adds 2 to the subject's Strength, on top of the spell's normal effects". Nar Fiendbond and Mineralize Warrior (applied via share spells same as with Planar Familiar) are both spells and they do directly result in a Str increase in the course of template application. Not a big upgrade, but cheap and lasting. (note: I posed this to the RAW thread to double-check legality, but don't expect any problems).

[Falontani]

I know this thread is basically done, but just wanted to add 2 small things I found for completeness.

First, we can have Anarchic, Axiomatic, Celestial or Fiendish template applied to the Symbiont by having it attach to someone else's familiar while their master casts Planar Familiar on them. They add a few points of ego, but give a couple of handy resistance, and most importantly let you adjust your Tentacle Whip's alignment to be in line with your own, which can greatly reduce the chances of ego conflict.

Second, we have the Horn of Gorgon optional material component from Complete Champion, which for 575 gp when used in the "casting of any spell that enhances Strength—whether by an enhancement bonus, a size increase, or any other means- adds 2 to the subject's Strength, on top of the spell's normal effects". Nar Fiendbond and Mineralize Warrior (applied via share spells same as with Planar Familiar) are both spells and they do directly result in a Str increase in the course of template application. Not a big upgrade, but cheap and lasting. (note: I posed this to the RAW thread to double-check legality, but don't expect any problems).

Great catch! I wish we had more that could be done here, as it is such an awesome idea!