Best Class for the Elven Curve Blade?

[Palanan]

I’d like to use the elven curve blade in a martial build, and I’m trying to decide between ranger, rogue or slayer for the base class.

The character will be third level, and since this is a wilderness setting a ranger would be appropriate. But third level is when the Unchained rogue gets dex to damage, and I’ve used slayers to good effect before, so I’m not sure which way to turn.

Any advice on feats, armor, and other gear would also be appreciated. I’m thinking of using the Ancestral Weapon trait for a cold iron ECB (for setting-dependent reasons), but beyond that I’m not sure which way to go.

[legomaster00156]

I had a player who played an Unchained Rogue, and used the elven curve blade to great effect. I should note that I allowed him to use 1.5x DEX to damage with his level 3 ability, since he was using it two-handed, but that's a very table-by-table ruling.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by legomaster00156
I had a player who played an Unchained Rogue, and used the elven curve blade to great effect. I should note that I allowed him to use 1.5x DEX to damage with his level 3 ability, since he was using it two-handed, but that's a very table-by-table ruling.

Very interesting, thanks.

Do you happen to know any more details of his build?

[legomaster00156]

Well, he was a Half-Elf Unchained Rogue (Hidden Blade), using PoW material. Even without the PoW material, though, his build would have been solid DPS. Between a high DEX and Sneak Attack, there was plenty of damage to toss around.

[grarrrg]

I had a player who played an Unchained Rogue, and used the elven curve blade to great effect. I should note that I allowed him to use 1.5x DEX to damage with his level 3 ability, since he was using it two-handed, but that's a very table-by-table ruling.

It's actually the official ruling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h3).

[legomaster00156]

It's actually the official ruling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h3).
Perhaps, but you should not expect every table to perfectly conform with rulings found in a FAQ.

[grarrrg]

Perhaps, but you should not expect every table to perfectly conform with rulings found in a FAQ.

But being able to point to an official rules source if it comes into question is quite handy.
(note: Paizo treats FAQ rulings as equal to Errata)

[Labelos]

It is interesting to note that you can power attack with a finessable two handed weapon such as the curve blade and get +3 damage/-1 attack, if you can afford to keep your str at 13.

[Psyren]

Perhaps, but you should not expect every table to perfectly conform with rulings found in a FAQ.

FAQ is RAW in PF, unlike in 3.5. Sure every table can houserule if they want, but they should be upfront that that's what they're doing.

Back on topic:

The biggest negative for the uRogue is that they aren't proficient with ECBs; so you'll need to spend feats, use racials (like the Tengu's sword training) or use retraining to get them proficient with it. One useful trick is to be an elf with the Heirloom Trait, which lets them start the game with a martial weapon of their choice (including proficiency), and they get to treat ECBs as martial due to weapon familiarity. They also have pretty good stats for a Rogue.
'

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
One useful trick is to be an elf with the Heirloom Trait, which lets them start the game with a martial weapon of their choice (including proficiency), and they get to treat ECBs as martial due to weapon familiarity.

I should’ve mentioned the character will be an elf. I was assuming that only elves would be using elven curved blades, pretty much for the reasons you give.

Will the Ancestral Weapon trait work just as well as the Heirloom Trait? And given a third-level build, what other feats would be useful here?

[Psyren]

Will the Ancestral Weapon trait work just as well as the Heirloom Trait?

Isn't that a half-elf trait? Can you take that?

ETA: Oh wait, I'm thinking of Ancestral Arms. Ancestral Weapon does not appear to give you proficiency, while the other two do.


And given a third-level build, what other feats would be useful here?

Pretty much any feat advice I would give would come from a rogue or urogue handbook (I don't play them often) so I'll just direct you there.

[Peat]

It is interesting to note that you can power attack with a finessable two handed weapon such as the curve blade and get +3 damage/-1 attack, if you can afford to keep your str at 13.

Or if you're a Ranger using the two-handed weapon combat style, as Rangers don't have to meet pre-requisites for feats they pick from that.

Which is probably the main draw to Ranger for this specific purpose. I doubt that beats everything Rogue has to offer and you could always take it as a 2 level dip anyway.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Oh wait, I'm thinking of Ancestral Arms. Ancestral Weapon does not appear to give you proficiency, while the other two do.

I’m still trying to figure out if I can work this with a rogue.

Is there any reason why I couldn’t take both the Heirloom Weapon and Ancestral Weapon traits? Heirloom Weapon would give proficiency with a single weapon, while Ancestral Weapon enhances that weapon and adds a trait bonus. Could these two traits work together without conflicting?

[Elder_Basilisk]

Looks like ancestral weapon is a regional trait and heirloom weapon is a local trait so you can have both. RAW, I think that having the two traits would give you two weapons. Ancestral weapon is masterwork and a special material and heirloom weapon is explicitly nonmasterwork. You would then be proficient in the nonmasterwork normal material heirloom weapon but would get +1 to hit with weapons made from the same material as the ancestral weapon you aren't proficient in.

It is possible that a DM would let you combine the two weapons and have a single nonRAW masterwork special material weapon that you are proficient in (and with which you get a bonus).

[vasilidor]

go slayer, as an elf you get the sword as a martial weapon. you will get both sneak attack and access to ranger fighting styles as built in parts of the class. also studied target is a nice boost for any situation.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
Ancestral weapon is masterwork and a special material and heirloom weapon is explicitly nonmasterwork.

Good catch there—I was staring right at it and it didn’t even register. Between Ancestral Arms, Ancestral Weapon and Heirloom Weapon, I was just about going crosseyed.


Originally Posted by vasilidor
go slayer, as an elf you get the sword as a martial weapon. you will get both sneak attack and access to ranger fighting styles as built in parts of the class. also studied target is a nice boost for any situation.

I’d been thinking about slayer, since I do like that full BAB. I was really set on getting dex to damage through unchained rogue, but I’m thinking that may not be worth it.

Is there a slayer archetype that swaps out sneak attack? That won’t be too useful on this build, and I’d be glad to trade it out for something else.

[Palanan]

At this point I’m decided on slayer, mainly because of the d10 and the variety of slayer/rogue talents.

Problem is, it’s almost too much variety, and I’m not sure which way to go. Which rogue talents would be best for a two-handed elven curve blade?

[Psyren]

Is there a slayer archetype that swaps out sneak attack? That won’t be too useful on this build, and I’d be glad to trade it out for something else.

Well I mean, if you don't want SA and dex to damage is negotiable, I would consider being a Ranger, Fighter, or (Unchained) Barbarian instead.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Well I mean, if you don't want SA and dex to damage is negotiable, I would consider being a Ranger, Fighter, or (Unchained) Barbarian instead.

I’d like Dex to damage if possible, but the unchained rogue doesn’t have proficiency in martial weapons, and it seems like too much hassle to try to get it somehow.

I’m not that interested in barbarian, and I’m honestly not sure what the relative benefits of slayer vs. ranger would be. Any insight on comparing the latter two classes, and what they might bring to an ECB build, would be much appreciated.

[Psyren]

Well, the main benefit to Ranger is that it doesn't have a feature (sneak attack) that you seem to not be enamored with. Instead, Ranger brings to the table combat styles (specifically the Two-Hander style), which will give you various feats without needing to meet any of the prereqs, i.e. not forcing you to have 13 Str to get Power Attack and Furious Focus like other classes would. Ranger also brings BAB, HD, and skills similar to those of the Slayer, but also advantages all its own like a free flanker (the animal companion) and several helpful spells. And lastly, if there are any ranger features that don't fit your concept either you can swap those out readily, as core classes are not lacking in support.

(Personally I would drop Favored Terrain for the Infiltrator archetype's handy Adapatation ability, as one example.)

[the_archduke]

The swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/swashbuckler) rogue archetype trades trapfinding for a martial weapon proficiency. Thus an elf can get ECB with this archetype giving up trapfinding.

Major magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/rogue-talents/paizo-rogue-talents/major-magic) for vanish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish/) would also allow you to use that full sneak attack progression

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Instead, Ranger brings to the table combat styles (specifically the Two-Hander style)….

This convinces me to go with ranger, thanks. I could probably tinker with the slayer some more, but at this point I’m 24 hours to game start and just need to get this done. I appreciate the suggestions, and the reminder about the animal companion.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Personally I would drop Favored Terrain for the Infiltrator archetype's handy Adapatation ability….

Exactly what I was thinking, although since the favored enemy will be humans, the options aren’t great. Lightning Reflexes for a +1 to Reflex saves is probably the best option.


Originally Posted by the_archduke
The swashbuckler rogue archetype trades trapfinding for a martial weapon proficiency. Thus an elf can get ECB with this archetype giving up trapfinding.

This is a good option, thanks. I’ve already decided on ranger for this build, but I’ll definitely keep swashbuckler rogue in mind for later.

[AZGrowler]

This may be a little late, but a Rogue/Slayer would have the best of both worlds. Three levels of Rogue gets you the Dex-to-damage goodies. Two levels of Slayer mean you can pick up Power Attack with a Str less than 13. A fourth level of Rogue is useful for Debilitating Injury.

[Bucky]

Rogue/Slayer is an invalid build due to the hybrid class rule: you can't multiclass a hybrid class with one of its parent classes.

[Psyren]

Exactly what I was thinking, although since the favored enemy will be humans, the options aren’t great. Lightning Reflexes for a +1 to Reflex saves is probably the best option.

Not sure if this is too late but Rangers get multiple favored enemies as they level, so the list of eligible adaptations should grow too.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Rogue/Slayer is an invalid build due to the hybrid class rule: you can't multiclass a hybrid class with one of its parent classes.

That was a rule during playtest. There is nothing stopping you from multiclassing hybrid classes with parent classes.

[Psyren]

That was a rule during playtest. There is nothing stopping you from multiclassing hybrid classes with parent classes.

Correct. There's a note that similar features don't stack unless specified and that one-time-choices like Bloodlines have to match between hybrid and parent, but other that that you're free to combine.

[Faily]

Well, I've had good success with Elf Paladin using Elven Curveblade... especially once you get Keen or Improved Critical. 15-20 range on a two-handed weapon, and Smite isn't precision damage (unlike Sneak Attack or Swashbuckler's precision), so it will be doubled too when you go crit-fishing.

BWR can tell all about his poor undeads and evil dragons being on the recieving end of a Smite attack's first hit (doubles against Undead, Evil Dragons and Evil Outsiders on first hit) that's also a critical hit. Add Litany of Righteousness to it for extra pain.

[Palanan]

I appreciate the renewed attention to the thread, but as of last Saturday night this character was at -3 and bleeding out on the floor of a hunting lodge.

[grarrrg]

as of last Saturday night this character was at -3 and bleeding out on the floor of a hunting lodge.

Hmmm...I don't see anywhere in this thread where that was recommended.

Have you tried turning the character off then on again?

[Sapreaver]

I appreciate the renewed attention to the thread, but as of last Saturday night this character was at -3 and bleeding out on the floor of a hunting lodge.
Those dastardly humans.

[Psyren]

Hmmm...I don't see anywhere in this thread where that was recommended.

Have you tried turning the character off then on again?

"Off" seems to have worked fine, it's the "then on again" where there appears to be difficulty :smallbiggrin: