Better Spell List: Cleric or Druid?

[jaappleton]

All books available, so their complete lists as of this moment.

For your money, which class has the better list?

I think Druid leans more toward crowd control, and bigger areas of effect with their spells.
Cleric is overall I think a bit more smaller in scope, but with greater spell effects, with Banishment being an example.

So, whatcha got?

[MaxWilson]

All books available, so their complete lists as of this moment.

For your money, which class has the better list?

I think Druid leans more toward crowd control, and bigger areas of effect with their spells.
Cleric is overall I think a bit more smaller in scope, but with greater spell effects, with Banishment being an example.

So, whatcha got?

Definitely the druid. Better HP healer (due in part to broken Healing Spirit), good condition healer (Greater Restoration), good control effects (Entangle, Spike Growth), excellent summoning capabilities (elementals, fey, Planar Binding), some modest evocations (Erupting Earth, Fire Storm).

Clerics have some nice extras in Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians/Shield of Faith/Sanctuary, and they have much, much better capabilities for dealing with death (Revivify + Death Ward + all the resurrection spells >>> Reincarnation + True Resurrection). So it's not exactly a no-brainer to pick druid. But overall, I'd still rather have a druid on my team than a cleric, if I had to pick.

[Citan]

Definitely the druid. Better HP healer (due in part to broken Healing Spirit), good condition healer (Greater Restoration), good control effects (Entangle, Spike Growth), excellent summoning capabilities (elementals, fey, Planar Binding), some modest evocations (Erupting Earth, Fire Storm).

You could also talk about all the great adventuring / mobility spells, or the higher mixed control/damage spells... ^^


Clerics have some nice extras in Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians/Shield of Faith/Sanctuary, and they have much, much better capabilities for dealing with death (Revivify + Death Ward + all the resurrection spells >>> Reincarnation + True Resurrection). So it's not exactly a no-brainer to pick druid. But overall, I'd still rather have a druid on my team than a cleric, if I had to pick.
What I would have said, except in a more direct and concise way (you-and all following readers of this thread- should thank him for sparing you one of my infamous page-long posts :smalltongue:).

So, yeah, Druid. Definitely Druid, unless the party really needs a top-class healer AND has at least one other caster that is sufficiently versatile (= not a Sorcerer or non-Ritual Warlock XD).

[EvilAnagram]

A druid is often very useful. A cleric is often the reason a fight was successful. Guiding Bolt, Bless, Spirit Guardians, Aid, Spiritual Weapon... it just doesn't quit. A druid is a very capable caster, but when a cleric charges into a crowd with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon up, busting out Guiding Bolts and Flame Strikes to your heart's content. Or be a team player, bust out Bless, then use Spiritual Weapon, Guiding Bolt, and Flame Strike to your heart's content. The many ways you can assist allies and harm enemies simultaneously is mind-boggling, going far beyond this. It's an incredible list with a formidable chassis holding it up.

A Druid's list is fine. There are a lot of helpful and damaging spells, but it's rarely going to make you the focal point around which the battle revolves.

[jaappleton]

What I would have said, except in a more direct and concise way (you-and all following readers of this thread- should thank him for sparing you one of my infamous page-long posts :smalltongue:).

So, yeah, Druid. Definitely Druid, unless the party really needs a top-class healer AND has at least one other caster that is sufficiently versatile (= not a Sorcerer or non-Ritual Warlock XD).

I happen to like your massive posts. They are well thought out and very insightful.

[Angelalex242]

That, and a Druid does it all while being the size of a flea if he's so inclined. Or turning into a dinosaur. Or whatever.

[MaxWilson]

Citan, you mention "mixed control/damage spells." Could you job my memory? Wrath of Nature comes to mind, and Erupting Earth, but off the top of my head I can't think of any other standouts. Elaborate please?

[hymer]

Citan, you mention "mixed control/damage spells." Could you job my memory? Wrath of Nature comes to mind, and Erupting Earth, but off the top of my head I can't think of any other standouts. Elaborate please?

I start thinking of Whirlwind, mostly because it's such a fun spell to cast. But there are also Reverse Gravity, and Wall of Fire, and Spike Growth, and Thorn Whip. Probably more I can't name off the top of my head.

As for OP's question, you won't be surprised to learn I think the druid spell list is better overall. I'd be much happier playing a cleric with a druid list than a cleric list of spells any time. The reasons are several, but above all it's the versatility of the druid list.

[Specter]

I'd say that for straight-up combat, it's a tie; both classes always have something to be done. Out of combat, Druid.


I happen to like your massive posts. They are well thought out and very insightful.

Yes, I demand more Citan posts.

[Citan]

Citan, you mention "mixed control/damage spells." Could you job my memory? Wrath of Nature comes to mind, and Erupting Earth, but off the top of my head I can't think of any other standouts. Elaborate please?
Hmm...
Earth Tremor
Which you quoted: prone effects will be loved by your melee pals, and difficult terrain is a nice added touch to slow down enemies (especially if you're a Land Druid, so unaffected). You need to go into the main threat area though, unless you just use it to escape a few enemies closing by.
Considering the Druid is not a tank by itself (= no multiclass/feats), it add some risks to its use, hence being relegated to the lowest tier. On some tanky Druid multiclass it could easily get up to the highest tier. ;)

Thunderwave
I should technically count it in because of the push effect, but honestly I never found a situation in which that rider was useful without also annoying friends, so I won't count it in. YMMV. :)
It's otherwise the same concept as Earth Tremor, benefits, drawbacks and thus rating alike.

Dust Devil
It's really more control than damage really, and sometimes hard to use (at least the "heavy obscuration effect" because depends on terrain, unless DM waives that), but you can annoy enemies quite a bit for the fight, pushing one into a trap, another away from a squishy friendly, or into a Sentinel martial's reach, or blinding a creature whose mobility is severely reduced... It's indeed not a game-changer though, until/unless you upcast it hard. ;)

Erupting Earth
Which you quoted.Plain improvement over Earth Tremor in every way, except the larger scale means easier to pull a bit of collateral damage, unless you play with a Rogue or Barbarian (they will suffer from difficult terrain whatever happens though ^^ but if they did not plan on moving that's an acceptable drawback). Can be useful to help a martial keep enemies around him/her (Sentinel and Booming Blade are great but only affect one enemy at a time).
Was close to reach "tier 2" but potential annoyance of melee makes it miss.

Tidal Wave
Which is similar to Erupting Earth albeit except its particular "shape" can make it easier (usually) or harder (sometimes) to use, and inflicts prone instead: more team-friendly when you have melee holding the front-line.
Was even closer to reach tier 2, but still depends on your party (for my games it'd be tier 2).


Bones of the Earth
This is one that my experience rates as too situational, or lackluster for the cost...
You could use it to provide high ground for your archers, but the cost for it is ridiculous.
You could think you can use it to isolate a melee creature, but at that level, any reasonable creature will accept taking a bit of damage (a few percents of HP pool is no big deal) and maybe fall prone instead of patiently waiting for its own death.
You can use it to create covers for allies, but seems totally overkill because you usually don't need that much height for a cover, nor all allies needing cover all at once, so situations in which the cost is worth are pretty rare in my eyes.
You can use it to crush creatures against ceilings, but that implies you are fighting in small enough spaces. Plus I didn't make the maths, but not sure the damage would be worth the cast...

Honestly I probably just have missed the best uses of this spell. I just don't know how to make it worth by myself.


Druid's Grove
Out: casting time means it's very hard to use it in an "offensive" way.
I mean, of course it's a great spell if you expect an attack somewhen, or if you have a plan to lure the enemy inside.
But then it means you have a half-decent idea of the actual threat (approximative time available to prepare, kind of enemies, etc).
In which case, yes this is the prime spell to cast if you are the main party caster. But if there are Cleric (Magic Circle, Forbiddance) or Wizard (Glyphs of Warding and too many other good spells)? Chances are Druid's Grove would be overkill or redundant.



Investiture of X
Not really "controllish" in my view, just an interesting way to up your own damage/resilience/mobility.
Honestly though, I would not usually prepare it unless I'm a Moon Druid or a multiclass that allows me to stick into melee.
In which case, hmmm...
I'd still rate it as situational sadly. Just the fact it's a 6th level spell is a big problem: it means that you just cannot make a character concept revolving around this because whatever happens you'll never cast it more than once a day (well, two if very high level Moon Druid).
If only it had been a level 5 spell... ^^ At least some original multiclasses such as Hexblade Warlock / Sorcerer could have made some good use of it or Druid / Ranger...
But level 6 spells means no Natural Recovery (Druid/Wizard), no Sorcery conversion, no short-rest slots.

As is, it's worth preparing mainly (only?) when you expect to have an encounter the next day in which elemental immunity will be essential to your survival AND you are pretty much convinced none of all your other concentration spells would be a better asset for your party to maintain.
IMX this would be a very rare occurence unless the DM tailors an encounter just for you to enjoy it, but YMMV.


Conjure Animals
This depends on how much leeway your DM gives on beast choice, but unless you're trying to conjure Sharks in forest or Black Bears in a desert, I see no reason why DM would bother deciding for you (no real cheese potential contrarily to Conjure Fey). So...
Want to push prone one or two enemies? Have a Wolf pack attack them. Even if the chance of each wolf actually succeeding is little (low bonus to hit, easy enough STR save), the number makes up for it. If allowed, Giant Frog's Swallow would be even better (blinded and restrained, can only attack the frog technically).
Want to quickly force a caster (which you know/expect not having Shield ;)) to drop concentration?
Conjure eight Swarms of Raven to focus-fire on it (I don't remember if this is RAW/RAI though, but I allow it in my games).
Want to get a cheeky elusive or sturdy and dangerous melee out for a while? Conjure a bunch of Giant Crabs to surround and Grapple him, or a few Giant Eagles (better check) or Giant Owl (Flyby) to try and Grapple it (you only get one chance per creature though), then grab it in the air. He's in catch-22: either rely on ranged attacks at disadvantage, or kill the flyer and take falling damage. Similar yet different to a Levitate effect. ^^

Honestly, the only reason why I do not put it higher (in the "potentially tide-reversing" is because whether we are talking about beast's survivability, chance to hit or DC effects, you rely more on luck than a caster using a spell that would achieve a similar effect (Earth Tremor, Web, Levitate, Blindness, etc) because any proper caster would already have a (+3+4) +7 bonus to hit and DC 15 (8+3+4) at that time. But that single spell allows you to mimick a wide range of other caster's offensive abilities in combat, and don't start me in defensive / utility uses. ^^
Provided you have someone in party that can work with you to buff them (Cleric, Druid, Paladin) then the spell definitely gets one tier higher, maybe two (if you're Shepherd, directly gain one tier ^^).

---
All of these would be spells that I would gather under the name "Helper's tier": they are more complex to use than a plain Spirit Guardians (control-wise) or Fireball (damage-wise), and their actual benefit will also depends on many factors, so they cannot be considered "must-have" by themselves.
In other words party cannot usually expect a Druid to clear mobs or completely shut off several people with a single cast of such spells.

On the plus side though...
- Since you can change prepared spells, you actually have a good chance to use them unless your party have a habit of always rushing through campaign blindly.
- Most of them don't require special positioning from you (contrarily to Spirit Guardians) and their smaller scale makes friendly fire easy to avoid most cases (contrarily to Fireball).
- Many of them can really amplify, or be amplified by, other party members's abilities and tactics. So depending on your taste and party composition, you'll probably have one or two of them always prepared.

Then we start having potentially tide-reversing spells, the tier 2.
---

Spike Growth
Automatic, unavoidable damage AND difficult terrain, that you can just cast right under someone's feet when it is where you want it to stay.
Good in nearly any situation, becomes golden if you have any people with pulling/pushing abitilies in addition to you (Monk -especially 4e with Fly, any martial with good Grapple and mobility through Haste/Fly/Expeditious Retreat, Repelling Blaster, Ranged Battlemaster with Trip Attack, etc) or when you want to block a narrow passage and Web wouldn't cut it or Plant Growth would be overkill.
Of course that it's concentration is a bit sad but I'd say it's fair. ^^
Honestly for my characters it's in fact in the highest tier, at least until around Druid 9 when you start getting really better "mixed" concentration spells and thus rather use lower slots on non-concentration. Until that moment, it's usually one of my best uses of concentration and slot.
But I reckon it's also because I use it often as the main battlefield controller. If another caster had way to create a similar movement hampering effect, it loses much lackluster.
Also, sadly, *it doesn't scale*.
Both things mean that as a spell I'd rate for anyone, he's barely reaching this tier, but never would he be in tier 3 unless specific party composition or character multiclass building around it.

Conjure Minor Elementals
I read people talking about using Mephits as a suicide charge, but I'm honestly not sure it's the best way to use them considering the slot cost. I'd rather see their death effect as a nice cherry although it can deal some collateral.
Nor do I see their attack abilities that great: it sure helps dealing with small groups of creatures, but even when stacked their cone damage won't amount to that much unless you find a way to make them survive longer (which is another reason why Shepherd rocks extremely hard).
Now, the real reason to use those imo is their innate spellcasting and abitilies.
Steam Mephits can hold a line one turn or two with Blur.
Ice Mephits can completely break enemy line of sight with Fog Cloud (technically you could obscure the same total area by upcasting Fog Cloud, but using Ice Mephits as proxy is much better: you can "split" the clouds, you won't lose all cloud at once unless you are the one failing concentration saves, and Mephits can still attacks on the other turns in addition to yourself ;)).
Lava Mephits can trivialize many encounters featuring melee in metal armors thanks to Heat Metal.
Dust Mephits can trivialize many encounters featuring enemies which rely on sight (so pretty much everyone): if you really want one guy to be blinded, focus-firing the cone "Blinded" ought to make him fail save at least one on the four attempts. The fact that you also can chain 4 Sleep at once, even as a first level spell, means you can still use it against low-CR enemies, or you could infiltrate places in a more original way (sometimes easier) than with usual Pass Without Trace, although that is definitely a fluff/fun choice rather than an optimal choice most of the times. ^^


Conjure Woodlands Beings
I'll be honest, I'm not familiar enough with all fey creatures and I think even more than Conjure Animals that single spell would warrant a guide of its own.
Even if your DM would bar Pixies (plz don't reopen that endless discussion about that), there are probably still some good ways to use it in combat, but I'll let people who know about it take point here. ;)
My main uses are usually rather Sprites for the Heart thingy so out of combat ^^.

In fight, I'll just use Satyres as added damage dealers.
Or occasionally upcasted Gargoyle.
I guess Dryad's ability must be nice to use but I find it a bit clunky to go all that way just to disable one enemy, and I woudn't know how to exploit it really. If for Entangle, I'd rather blow three 1st level Entangle myself rather than a 4th level. YMMV.
And as "added damage" I find it too frail (never tried as Shepherd though).
It has some uses outside combat though.

Really don't know the other. ;)


Giant Insects
A strangely convoluted way to get the equivalent of a greatly upcast Conjure Animals, for a discount, provided you have a way to provide the animals.

It is probably great, much better than upcasting CA, when you like using those kind of beasts, but as said I'm not into "insects-handler" so I just don't bother with it usually. It's really just a matter of taste. ^^


Conjure Elemental
Same as with Feys, I'm not familiar enough with all creatures that are "elemental" type.
But just being able to cast a "classic" Elemental is great.
- Earth boasts impressive resilience and can easily bypass enemies to go straight to its target.
- Fire is a good way to deal damage and force a target to move away "by its own will", provoking OA.
- Water gets a pretty decent, albeit small-range, "mass-Grapple" effect.
- Air has similar effect except it's Prone, but I really dislike the random direction push personally.
Anyways, any one of them is a very solid ally to put into the fight, because they can actually withstand hits for a while.

I suppose you could also upcast for Invisible Stalker since technically it's an elemental strangely. Is it worth the upcast? For a combat situation, I'd say no but YMMV (after all, perma-invisible and 50 feet hover speed is nice).
For out of combat situation? While I admit I cannot imagine every situation, I guess that one in which using a 6th level slot for only one hour of failsafe tracking of a creatlure is your best course of action should not happen often, if any. ^^


Conjure spells in general (if upcasted hard).
upcast Conjure Animals give access to better animals, or a way to really break action economy, if only for one or two rounds.


--- And now for the highest tier, the spells that are always very useful and can easily & greatly change the power balance of the opposing groups (IMO ;))---

Heat Metal
No-save damage repeatable for a bonus action, and disadvantage on attacks? Yes please. I'll always have that one prepared for a good part of my character's life.

Sleet Storm
Now we are talking: heavily obscuration, damage and difficult terrain? Sure, this also means your ranged allies probably won't try to hit affected creatures because they also have trouble seeing them (probably, considering the casting range)...
But with a single spell, you put any group of archers or casters out of the fight for quite a few rounds.
Good in all situations in which you have to divide enemy forces to take them out in order.
Great whenever enemy's tactical positioning does not offer many options in the first place (enemies in a tower or up a castle's walls for example).


Wind Wall
Same idea, different situations: best used closer to your group, so it will force archers to come closer. Unless you want to use it mainly as a way to soften up an enemy frontline AND provide cover at the same time for your melee that are just about to reach them.
(I would actually not prepare both Sleet Storm and Wind Wall unless I really have no idea of what to expect, apart from great threat. Usually I'll just pick the one party feels the most comfortable working with until I get Wall of Fire, then keep Sleet Storm: I feel Wind Wall is kinda superceded by Wall of Fire: rarely would enemy archers/archers use their action to shoot blindly through a wall, so the "prevent archers to shoot" effect is reached anyways IMX).


Wall of Fire
Do I really need to get into detail? Shapeable wall* means fire-friendly, pretty decent damage on cast, complete break of line of sight, unavoidable damage when crossing... Whatever happens, I'll always have that one prepared. Just great.

*I just want to stress that in my understanding, by RAW you cannot freely shape the wall (otherwise it would be too powerful probably). I houserule as such in my games though.
Check with your DM (or if anyone has a source for RAW/RAI?). Even if it's only either line or circle, it's still great though. Just lesser. ^^


Wrath of Nature
Seems as versatile as Bigby's Hand except for crowd control, but couldn't try it yet. I'd probably keep it in my prepared short-list though, especially since it's party-friendly built-in.
Also not sure about what RAW ruling is if you happened to have a creature in a zone mixing all kinds (5 feet space with grass under feet and tree on one side), I read it as "everything applies" which is great.
Like Plant Growth, Entangle and Earth Tremor all combined in a nice, extensive package. ^^


Wall of Thorns
Spike Growth (auto damage), Plant Growth (4 feet speed for 1 feet move) and Fog Cloud (no line of sight) fused together with a great damage-on-cast component on top of it.
Is it worth being in the short-list of "always prepared"? My taste says yes, but it could very well be argued the slot cost relegates it to intermediate tier considering you already have Wall of Fire which has similar use-cases. YMMV.

Also, same as Wall of Fire about shapeability. Still, even if only straight line or circle, a great spell (I'd mainly use it as a circle though: it's like a repeated smaller scale Fireball ^^).


Conjure Fey
I put it here because it's a level 6 spell, but as said before I'm not familiar enough with creatures. i'll let other people talk about it.

Conjure spells in general (if you upcast them as a Shepherd Druid)
Now all your conjurations have much better resilience (variable HP boost + healing in Spirit) and bypass physical resistances. What's not to like?

And I'll stop here, not only because I'm on this post since more than 2 hours or that I probably already broke the length record XD, but also because I'm not familiar enough with 7th level spells and higher and few people ever get there (often) anyways.

Congratulations on (and thanks to) everyone that had the patience to read all this. XD

@Specter and @jaapleton: thanks for your support guys.
I reckon though that too big posts can be a pain for people, especially for those who are not interested in the topic talked about in it. That's why I usually try to make it at least structured, often spoilered (it's stupid to say, but having to scroll down several "times" just to bypass a post can get annoying quick XD). :)

EDIT: Kinda off-topic but... Before the best conjurer was probably Conjurer Wizard 14 / Druid 6 (possibly Moon). Now?
Obviously Shepherd is the best archetype...
But I'd say another strong contender could be Shepherd Druid 14 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 4 / Fighter 2. Cast Extended Conjure to bring forth 2 or 3 powerful creatures, action surge upcast Aid, bring your Spirit if needed, profit.

EDIT Sunday: removed the tier numbers which were confusing, added individual spoilers for spells (so now I could have removed the tiers entirely and instead made per spell level plain analysis, but no more time ^^).
Also pushed Spike Growth to tier 2 (my initial idea, I missed it).
And have a question.
In your opinion, do Wall of Fire and Wall of Thorns authorize you to shape the wall in a non-straight line as long as dots don't connect, by RAW, RAI, or not at all (means houserule)?
For me clearly not (although I do allow players to, for me it's clearly a houserule).

[dejarnjc]

Hmm, just for sake of discussion, I'm not sure I'd ever rate an investiture spell as tier 1. They're pretty situational spells and not great considering the spell level.

[MxKit]

Hmm, just for sake of discussion, I'm not sure I'd ever rate an investiture spell as tier 1. They're pretty situational spells and not great considering the spell level.

It confused me at first too, but Citan went ""backwards,"" calling the least useful of the still useful control-and-damage spells Tier 1 and the "must have, almost always prepare" ones Tier 3. :smalltongue:

[Citan]

It confused me at first too, but Citan went ""backwards,"" calling the least useful of the still useful control-and-damage spells Tier 1 and the "must have, almost always prepare" ones Tier 3. :smalltongue:
Aaaw, I'm sorry, didn't realize "tiers" already had a "global reference" here.

I guess I'll edit the post and remove the numbering entirely. It's not that important anyways, I think description is enough.
(Also, frankly I used this separation mainly so I could put some spoilers, but I think many people would have asgood as, yet very different, analysis opinions on at least half the spells. ^^).

At least it made me realize how much I wanted to try out a Conjured-focused Shepherd Druid now... Too bad it will never happen XD.

[Beelzebubba]

Playing a Druid, I can say: if your campaign has a lot of extra-planar enemies, or lots of undead, a Druid can feel pretty nerfed.

Outsiders resist almost every damage type Druids inflict. Thunder is the one saving grace, and that takes stealth off the table. For the undead, it's not quite as bad but requires a game of rock/paper/scissors to find damage types that work unless you had Religion skill from your background.

Also, Clerical Channel Divinity is damn powerful, and to get the same capability, a Druid must devote non-trivial spell slots that are less broadly applicable than their other ones and still not quite as effective, so even if you know what you're in for ahead of time, and adjust your spell list appropriately, you can feel like you're fighting from behind.

Things to think about:
Circle of the Shepherd and the Moon have clear advantages due to the natural magical weapons of summoned creatures or wild shape.
Moonbeam is absolutely essential.
Elemental Adept can be really useful as a long-term strategy.

[hymer]

In your opinion, do Wall of Fire and Wall of Thorns authorize you to shape the wall in a non-straight line as long as dots don't connect, by RAW, RAI, or not at all (means houserule)?
For me clearly not (although I do allow players to, for me it's clearly a houserule).

Until you mentioned it, I always took the RAW to mean that you can shape the wall. I guess it depends on what one envisions on hearing 'wall'? The longer, round version is still a 'ringed wall' though it isn't a straight line of wall. So it seems those writing this needn't have thought a wall needs to be linish.
On the other hand, the Wall of Stone text goes out of its way to mention that you can make any shape you want, within the 10' panel thing and contiguousness. It's a somewhat different text, so not directly comparable, but it could still mean that 'wall' without specific mention otherwise should be seen as a line? Though I don't see that defined anywhere.
Maybe someone on Twitter could try to poke a developer with it?

Edit: After a bit of searching, it seems Mearls at least thinks WoF can zigzag (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/763788700807376896).

[MaxWilson]

The biggest advantage a cleric has over a druid, in my opinion, is the ability to wear non-crummy armor. One reason Moon Druids feel so much pressure to hang out in wildshape is because druid shape tends to be rather squishy, AC 16 at best. Druids can still Hide or stay out of range with Longstrider, but if druids would get more benefit out of their spell lists (e.g. Thunderclap, Primal Acidclaws or whatever it's called, even Thorn Whip) AND be more attractive multiclass targets if they had better armor options.

Xanathar's Guide to Everything offers a possible way out via its much faster crafting rules. If all else fails, you can always craft yourself some dragon scale armor (Very Rare, takes six months, which is much better than the fifty years or whatever it would take by DMG rules). There may be other non-metallic armor options that slip my mind just now.

Anyway, there's a big difference in feel between a druid with AC 14 and a druid with AC 19-21, especially when it comes to ranged attacks from large numbers of humanoids.

[Biggstick]

Cleric spell list. What's also nice about every Cleric is that while both classes get Cleric level + Wisdom modifier in spells prepared, Clerics get up to an additional 10 spells automatically added to this list of spells prepared due to domain choice. The spell list of each domain presents options for what a Player might be looking to play, and is guaranteed to be available to the Player, and should be considered when discussing spell lists (as compared to Druid, of which only one Circle type gets an expanded spell list).

The Cleric spell list can be game-breaking against a DM. Well, when I say game-breaking, what I mean is that Clerics more so then any other class can deal with the things a DM might present to the Players in which they need a hard answer. Not sure which direction to go? Augury is there to help you out. Playing in a campaign in which rations/water is an issue? Create Food and Water has you covered (Goodberry/Create-Destroy Water, I know. I've seen DM's get upset over Players using Goodberries both as a way to heal themselves by eating all 10 and using them as a means of required food per day. They end up working out with the Player(s) at the table for it to have certain effects on a Player if they eat more then a few per day, as they're eating man days worth of food should they shove a lot in their mouth). Other spells like Remove Curse, Sending, and Tongues, while things I don't really need to go into detail over, can be game changing in what they allow a party to do. How many times have you had to get a message to someone across a large distance, and had a Cleric mention having met said person and being able to use the Sending spell to talk with them. That completely removes the necessity to actually travel to said person! Need to negotiate with a tribe of hostile creatures but no one speaks the language? Tongues has your back!

I haven't even gone into the buffing spells available for Cleric. Bless really carries this though. This is one of the only spells in the game that is just as useful at level 1 being cast with a 1st level spell slot as it is at level 20 being cast with a 9th level spell slot (if you have that many party members!). It doesn't require careful planning, proper positioning of the enemy/allies, or require a saving throw be failed by someone, it simply works. And it's almost always an amazing use of a Cleric's concentration, as adding 1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws for all Blessed creatures is useful against everything! I would be remiss to also not include how powerful Spirit Guardians is. While this spell isn't always going to be your go-to spell in the first round of combat, it should almost always be on your prepared spell list. Party friendly AOE, radiant damage even on a failed saving throw (that scales with spell level), and the aura also slows enemy movement within? Yes please! There are plenty of other more combat focused spells like Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon, Bestow Curse, Mass Healing Word, Revivify, Banishment, Death Ward, etc.

The Cleric spell list has stronger divination capabilities, with spells like Augury, Clairvoyance, Sending, Speak with Dead, Divination, Commune, and Legend Lore. These are spells that don't necessarily change what your DM does, but it allows you as a Player to learn information from people or creatures or locations in ways the DM might not have planned for. A creative Player can take these spells and do incredible things with them; these sort of features are not available to the Druid.

A Druid spell list requires you to choose a very particular tool for the job. Do I choose to prepare Faerie Fire or Entangle today? A Cleric doesn't need to make such a choice, as Bless will be useful in both of the situations in which Faerie Fire/Entangle is useful (rarely do I see either spell successfully used to light up an Invisible target or prevent a running target from escaping). Most of the divination/information gather spells of a Cleric aren't even close to being matched by a Druid, and can typically prepared the next day if you need them. The buffing capabilities of a Cleric far surpass that of a Druid, and buff spells are a constant you can depend on being useful. The usefulness of Faerie Fire versus Entangle (both of which require a saving throw to be effective) just isn't as consistent as what Bless is.

TLDR; The Cleric spell list is better in that their combat options (while not as varied as a Druid) are more universally useful from level 1 through level 20. Outside of combat, their buffing capability, condition removal (such as curses and death), and divination capability is unmatched compared to the Druid. In addition to this, ALL Clerics get to add up to 10 spells to their automatically prepared spell list due to their choice of domain. While domain spells aren't necessarily being talked about here, they need to be a part of the equation, as number of prepared spells is a factor when trying to choose which spells you're going to prepare on the daily.

[Citan]

Playing a Druid, I can say: if your campaign has a lot of extra-planar enemies, or lots of undead, a Druid can feel pretty nerfed.

Things to think about:
Circle of the Shepherd and the Moon have clear advantages due to the natural magical weapons of summoned creatures or wild shape.
Moonbeam is absolutely essential.
Elemental Adept can be really useful as a long-term strategy.
Thanks for this feedback. I never really realized that since I never played undead heavy campaign but it's a very important bit to keep in mind when choosing class indeed.


Until you mentioned it, I always took the RAW to mean that you can shape the wall. I guess it depends on what one envisions on hearing 'wall'? The longer, round version is still a 'ringed wall' though it isn't a straight line of wall. So it seems those writing this needn't have thought a wall needs to be linish.
On the other hand, the Wall of Stone text goes out of its way to mention that you can make any shape you want, within the 10' panel thing and contiguousness. It's a somewhat different text, so not directly comparable, but it could still mean that 'wall' without specific mention otherwise should be seen as a line? Though I don't see that defined anywhere.
Maybe someone on Twitter could try to poke a developer with it?

Edit: After a bit of searching, it seems Mearls at least thinks WoF can zigzag (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/763788700807376896).
Well, that was my initial understanding, but then I went like "if we were able to shape it freely, then you could just make a circle that is actually bigger than the one described, so I guess there must be some kind of limit".

When you can shape it freely, its power is really amplified since you can for example maximize depending on terrain or enemy positioning. You could for example "spare" one enemy while putting all others on the other side. XD


Cleric spell list. What's also nice about every Cleric is that while both classes get Cleric level + Wisdom modifier in spells prepared, Clerics get up to an additional 10 spells automatically added to this list of spells prepared due to domain choice. The spell list of each domain presents options for what a Player might be looking to play, and is guaranteed to be available to the Player, and should be considered when discussing spell lists (as compared to Druid, of which only one Circle type gets an expanded spell list).

Land Druid can get that too, but since all Clerics get it, it's indeed a nice point. I'd just argue that all bonus spells are not of equal worth, even considering the focus of each Domain.




The Cleric spell list can be game-breaking against a DM. Well, when I say game-breaking, what I mean is that Clerics more so then any other class can deal with the things a DM might present to the Players in which they need a hard answer. Not sure which direction to go? Augury is there to help you out. Playing in a campaign in which rations/water is an issue? Create Food and Water has you covered (Goodberry/Create-Destroy Water, I know. I've seen DM's get upset over Players using Goodberries both as a way to heal themselves by eating all 10 and using them as a means of required food per day. They end up working out with the Player(s) at the table for it to have certain effects on a Player if they eat more then a few per day, as they're eating man days worth of food should they shove a lot in their mouth). Other spells like Remove Curse, Sending, and Tongues, while things I don't really need to go into detail over, can be game changing in what they allow a party to do. How many times have you had to get a message to someone across a large distance, and had a Cleric mention having met said person and being able to use the Sending spell to talk with them. That completely removes the necessity to actually travel to said person! Need to negotiate with a tribe of hostile creatures but no one speaks the language? Tongues has your back!

True, but Druid also gets many adventuring spells that can allow a party to completely bypass a challenge, from Water Breahting up to Wind Walk.
And Druid as Cleric could just poach each other's Rituals with the feat. ^^
Sending is indeed an often forgotten spell, even if it's costly, it's a great way to share information immediately even at long distances indeed.

As for Augury / Remove Curse / Tongues, it's (sadly) very DM-dependent. So like the undead thingy mentioned above, it may be golden in one campaign and useless in another.




I haven't even gone into the buffing spells available for Cleric. Bless really carries this though. This is one of the only spells in the game that is just as useful at level 1 being cast with a 1st level spell slot as it is at level 20 being cast with a 9th level spell slot (if you have that many party members!). It doesn't require careful planning, proper positioning of the enemy/allies, or require a saving throw be failed by someone, it simply works. And it's almost always an amazing use of a Cleric's concentration, as adding 1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws for all Blessed creatures is useful against everything! I would be remiss to also not include how powerful Spirit Guardians is. While this spell isn't always going to be your go-to spell in the first round of combat, it should almost always be on your prepared spell list. Party friendly AOE, radiant damage even on a failed saving throw (that scales with spell level), and the aura also slows enemy movement within? Yes please! There are plenty of other more combat focused spells like Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon, Bestow Curse, Mass Healing Word, Revivify, Banishment, Death Ward, etc.

Shield of Faith competes with Bless, Sanctuary blocks affected creature offense barring a few specific spells, Spiritual Weapon is great no doubt on that, Bestow Curse requires you to be into melee, Banishment is another great spell, others are great buffs/heals but costly and not directly offensive.

So basically the only direct offense / control of Cleric is Command, Guiding Bolt, Hold Person, Blindness, Silence, Spirit Guardians, Bestow Curse, Spiritual Weapon, with the best ones competing about concentration.
These are good, but I wouldn't call that "better in combat options" than Druid honestly. You will always be good whatever situation you are in, which makes you more predictable for party (which is good) and enemies (less good) alike. But you are very limited in how much you can change tactics. And you basically don't have any AOE until very high level, and a kinda lackluster one.
In addition to that, most of those require you to be close to the front line at all times (which is not a problem though, since you want to keep close enough for Healing Words / Aid usually ^^) which also means a risk of losing concentration.

Beyond that, you have to rely on Domain spells to get some AOE or different control, but then you have only those for all life, so it's again good but making you "stable".

Druid has a much wider range to engage (meaning easier to keep concentration), between sky effects, grounds effects, projectiles effects, and conjuration effects. :)
And since you tend to put emphasis on preparing encounters by getting information about them, then you should even more like the fact that Druid has different mixes of damage and control, because you have a good chance to pick the best one for upcoming fight. ^^
In general, you can much easier change your focus depending on the kind of day you expect, and between that and Wild Shape (barring Circle features) you can decently fill in the shoes of any other class. Cleric just cannot unless he happens to have the Domain that more or less fits the role of the class he's supposed to replace.



The Cleric spell list has stronger divination capabilities, with spells like Augury, Clairvoyance, Sending, Speak with Dead, Divination, Commune, and Legend Lore. These are spells that don't necessarily change what your DM does, but it allows you as a Player to learn information from people or creatures or locations in ways the DM might not have planned for. A creative Player can take these spells and do incredible things with them; these sort of features are not available to the Druid.
Same as before: it depends on you being good at using it, and DM being good at accepting it and providing you the context to use them in the first place.
And most of them are rituals, so again, Ritual Caster is your friend. :)




A Druid spell list requires you to choose a very particular tool for the job. Do I choose to prepare Faerie Fire or Entangle today? A Cleric doesn't need to make such a choice, as Bless will be useful in both of the situations in which Faerie Fire/Entangle is useful (rarely do I see either spell successfully used to light up an Invisible target or prevent a running target from escaping). Most of the divination/information gather spells of a Cleric aren't even close to being matched by a Druid, and can typically prepared the next day if you need them. The buffing capabilities of a Cleric far surpass that of a Druid, and buff spells are a constant you can depend on being useful. The usefulness of Faerie Fire versus Entangle (both of which require a saving throw to be effective) just isn't as consistent as what Bless is.

You're dishonest in several ways here: first in comparing a buff and a debuff (which has chance to fail, so obviously it is a drawback comparing to a buff), second by conveniently forgetting that Faerie Fire provides advantage (which is statistically better than an average +2) to the whole party (no need to upcast like Bless) and "blocks invisibility", third by also conveniently putting aside all spells that are useful often enough, and easy to use often enough, to be kept prepared at any times, and do enhance party's offense or defense, even if it's not by directly affecting them (Heat Metal, Spike Growth and Plant Growth, Conjure spell, Wall of Fire, Polymorph, Elemental Bane etc).
For example, Wall of Fire is something that an enemy just cannot ignore if he's on the wrong side: you just boosted your party defenses against all ranged attacks and casters. If enemy side doesn't have Dispel Magic, they're stuck.
Cast a Plant Growth while keeping an area for your allies if need be: since plant growth is instant and just boosts natural life, there is no Dispel Magic here. Same with Erupting Earth, you just terraformed the ground, the the final state is not a magical effect, just the same consequences as if there had been a small landslide. So unless enemy party has some Freedom of Movement / Haste / Fly to spend, it's unavoidable effect. You just gained one or several more turns to fill in melee creatures with arrows/spells before they reach you.



TLDR; The Cleric spell list is better in that their combat options (while not as varied as a Druid) are more universally useful from level 1 through level 20. Outside of combat, their buffing capability, condition removal (such as curses and death), and divination capability is unmatched compared to the Druid. In addition to this, ALL Clerics get to add up to 10 spells to their automatically prepared spell list due to their choice of domain. While domain spells aren't necessarily being talked about here, they need to be a part of the equation, as number of prepared spells is a factor when trying to choose which spells you're going to prepare on the daily.
I strongly disagree with the bolded parts. Clerics have basically the same handful of spells to use in a fight (Bless/Guiding Bolt/Death Ward/Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians), barring Domain bonus spells.
Which is compensated by the fact that all their spells are friendly but that's also something to be expected of a Cleric in the first place. ^^
And by the fact most of them scale pretty well, which makes them still relevant as long as you pick a high enough slot to cast them from.
Basically, they are "set-and-forget": besides the choice of target, and evaluating around threat for Spirit Guardians specifically (avoiding concentration break / avoiding restrain effects too ;)), it's as efficient in the hands of an experienced player as it is in a newcomer's one: just cast and resolve. It's also logical they don't get much variety: Clerics are not supposed to be that offensive in the first place. ^^

Druid spells sure require more finesse and thought, but they can have a much larger effect on how fast you win a fight. And many of them don't require (nor can't for some ^^) to be upcasted to keep relevant, so it makes it easier on resource consumption's curve as the game progress.

And Druids trump Clerics easily in adventuring and utility, without even starting on its Wild Shape versatility. As you said yourself, much of Cleric's non-combat greatness comes from Divination spells, most of which are rituals, so that is something a Druid could easily make up for if he so wished. Reverse is true but in a lesser way: some of the best adventuring spells are not rituals. ;)

As for the fact that Clerics are much better than Druid in healing (in broad sense), I'd say, fortunately they are, it's their schtick since ancient times. XD

So for me the choice would rather be function of whether you want to have a focused role or a versatile one in the party. AND of course how creative/crafty your DM allows you to be with divination and the like. ;)

[hymer]

Well, that was my initial understanding, but then I went like "if we were able to shape it freely, then you could just make a circle that is actually bigger than the one described, so I guess there must be some kind of limit".
If memory serves, the circumference of a circle is pi multiplied by diameter. 20' diameter gives a somewhat larger circumference than the 60' option - in the real world. On a 5e grid, circumference gets bigger, as pi is 4 (circles being rendered as squares) rather than IRL 3.18.
But correct me if I'm wrong.

[MaxWilson]

If memory serves, the circumference of a circle is pi multiplied by diameter. 20' diameter gives a somewhat larger circumference than the 60' option - in the real world. On a 5e grid, circumference gets bigger, as pi is 4 (circles being rendered as squares) rather than IRL 3.18.
But correct me if I'm wrong.

AFAIK 5e has no rule for square circles, on a grid or otherwise. If it did, many spells would be written quite differently.

A given DM is of course free to approximate a circle in any way that's convenient. But the actual PCs will see a circle, not a square.

BTW, spending a 9th level spell slot on Bless was mentioned upthread. I wouldn't recommend that ever. Bless is like Hex: a decent and cheap default use of your concentration, if you've got no better use for it. But Bless IX from a cleric will never compete with Shapechange or Foresight from a druid, and probably not even with Banishment IX from that same cleric.

Divination like Augury are indeed some of the best stuff a cleric has, but the opportunity cost is so high...

[hymer]

AFAIK 5e has no rule for square circles, on a grid or otherwise. If it did, many spells would be written quite differently.

A given DM is of course free to approximate a circle in any way that's convenient. But the actual PCs will see a circle, not a square.

It's an observation (and not mine, I can't credit my source, I'm afraid, because I don't remember where I got it) on how you can move diagonally without it costing extra movement. If you're standing at the centre of a circle, no matter which direction you face, you always have radius to go to reach the edge of the circle. The only way to draw that on a square grid with the diagonal peculiars is with a real life square.

[MaxWilson]

It's an observation (and not mine, I can't credit my source, I'm afraid, because I don't remember where I got it) on how you can move diagonally without it costing extra movement. If you're standing at the centre of a circle, no matter which direction you face, you always have radius to go to reach the edge of the circle. The only way to draw that on a square grid with the diagonal peculiars is with a real life square.

Why wouldn't it cost extra movement to move diagonally? That's un-physical.

[hymer]

Why wouldn't it cost extra movement to move diagonally? That's un-physical.
It's the 'Playing on a Grid' variation, PHB p. 192. And I don't like it much, but some of my players apparently find enormous relief in not counting every other diagonal move as 2 squares' movement. :smallconfused:

[MaxWilson]

It's the 'Playing on a Grid' variation, PHB p. 192. And I don't like it much, but some of my players apparently find enormous relief in not counting every other diagonal move as 2 squares' movement. :smallconfused:

Ooooooh! So you're talking about a *simplified* grid. PHB 192 itself points you to the DMG for more realistic rules, so clearly not all 5E grids are simplistic grids. Thanks for clarifying your point.

[Foxhound438]

The biggest advantage a cleric has over a druid, in my opinion, is the ability to wear non-crummy armor. One reason Moon Druids feel so much pressure to hang out in wildshape is because druid shape tends to be rather squishy, AC 16 at best.

This is the big difference maker to me. It's not a matter of which is better, but what style of play you want As far as overall casting utility goes, it's a wash. Druid has more offensive damage options, cleric has more support and healing options, and both have enough options to have a good use of their spells in almost any situation. But clerics play differently to druids, likely wandering into a melee with heavy armor and a shield, and putting the spirit guardians on top of their allies to deter attacks and thwart retreats. Meanwhile, a druid is probably perched in a tree somewhere calling lightning on distant foes. Which one to take is really more of a player preference than anything else, but to a degree you could say that which one is "best" depends on how the rest of the party is put together- if there's already 5 paladins and a barbarian in the group, you may want to prefer some ranged damage from a druid. Conversely, if you have a wizard with 12 con and a rogue who will sooner run away than put themselves in front for a split second, the tanky, front line focused cleric might be the better option.

[Biggstick]

True, but Druid also gets many adventuring spells that can allow a party to completely bypass a challenge, from Water Breahting up to Wind Walk.
And Druid as Cleric could just poach each other's Rituals with the feat. ^^
Sending is indeed an often forgotten spell, even if it's costly, it's a great way to share information immediately even at long distances indeed.

As for Augury / Remove Curse / Tongues, it's (sadly) very DM-dependent. So like the undead thingy mentioned above, it may be golden in one campaign and useless in another.

You say this multiple times throughout your post, but I'll simply refute it once. I have never ever seen a Druid take Ritual Caster. Period. They're already a Ritual Caster and there have always been other ASI's that the Druids in games I've been in prefer (+2 Wis, Alert, Lucky, Resilient, Warcaster, Observant, Keen Mind, etc). Spending an ASI on a feature, and then requiring the DM to provide spell scrolls in loot is pretty big, and something I wouldn't exactly expect to ever happen quickly. I've also never seen a DM allow spells to be traded the way you're describing unless it was a pair of Wizards trading spells from spellbooks. So while I'm not saying it doesn't happen, as it sounds like it happens in your games, I just wouldn't take it for RAW, as the RAW describes finding the spell in written form, "such as magical spell scroll or wizard's spellbook."


Shield of Faith competes with Bless, Sanctuary blocks affected creature offense barring a few specific spells, Spiritual Weapon is great no doubt on that, Bestow Curse requires you to be into melee, Banishment is another great spell, others are great buffs/heals but costly and not directly offensive.

So basically the only direct offense / control of Cleric is Command, Guiding Bolt, Hold Person, Blindness, Silence, Spirit Guardians, Bestow Curse, Spiritual Weapon, with the best ones competing about concentration.
These are good, but I wouldn't call that "better in combat options" than Druid honestly. You will always be good whatever situation you are in, which makes you more predictable for party (which is good) and enemies (less good) alike. But you are very limited in how much you can change tactics. And you basically don't have any AOE until very high level, and a kinda lackluster one.
In addition to that, most of those require you to be close to the front line at all times (which is not a problem though, since you want to keep close enough for Healing Words / Aid usually ^^) which also means a risk of losing concentration.

Beyond that, you have to rely on Domain spells to get some AOE or different control, but then you have only those for all life, so it's again good but making you "stable".

Shield of Faith and Bless are both concentration spells, very true. And Sanctuary isn't used for someone who's looking to take offensive action right now, but used to get someone past a situation in which enemies are going to be considering attacking them.

It's funny how you talk about direct control/offense, and mention spells like Command, Guiding Bolt, Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse, and Spiritual Weapon. None of these spells require concentration (except Bestow Curse, which can also be cast as a 5th level spell and not require concentration). You bring up Silence, which can be Ritually cast, meaning it can be used in out-of-combat situations. Sure, it requires concentration, but there aren't any concentration effects that a Cleric is going to need to worry about outside of combat.

I'll agree that unless the proper domain is chosen, Cleric is lack-luster in that regard. However, if Light or Tempest are chosen, they're definitely better at aoe then Druids are (Channel Divinity for the Tempest Cleric and Fireball for the Light Cleric). When not referring to those archetypes though, Druid definitely has better aoe. However, the same way you described Cleric spending concentration on their few solid always powerful spells, Druids aoe damage is lacking compared to Fireball, and a majority of the aoe spells from Druid require you to use concentration and assistance/coordination with the party to fully utilize. Your party has to cooperate with you for your aoe to be the most effective. If they can't, or are unable to coordinate with you, Druid aoe is lackluster, as enemies can simply move away from the area being effected. And if you're using your aoe spells, you're not concentrating on any other useful spells for your party.


Druid has a much wider range to engage (meaning easier to keep concentration), between sky effects, grounds effects, projectiles effects, and conjuration effects. :)
And since you tend to put emphasis on preparing encounters by getting information about them, then you should even more like the fact that Druid has different mixes of damage and control, because you have a good chance to pick the best one for upcoming fight. ^^
In general, you can much easier change your focus depending on the kind of day you expect, and between that and Wild Shape (barring Circle features) you can decently fill in the shoes of any other class. Cleric just cannot unless he happens to have the Domain that more or less fits the role of the class he's supposed to replace.

Please tell me how it's easier for a Druid to maintain concentration on a spell then it is for a Cleric. One of the best concentration spells a Cleric can cast (Bless) literally improves their ability to make concentration saves should they be required to make one (and should they have chosen to cast it upon themselves, which they should have). If you're talking about things like Conjure anything or Call Lightning, sure, they're going to be able to maintain concentration on the spell. But that really isn't what's being talked about. What you're talking about are spell choices, as a Cleric can choose to cast spells in a similar manner to your description (Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Shield of Faith, etc) and not be in danger of losing concentration on those spells.

All Druids have access to Pass w/o Trace and a tiny animal form for scouting. All Druids can take Healing Word/Lesser Restoration/Dispel Magic/Freedom of Movement/Greater Restoration and act as someone who can deal with status debuffs (0 hp, paralyzed/stunned/etc). Unless you're a Moon Druid, you're not going to be able to fill as a meat shield. All Druids can take a few of the aoe spells, hope they have a party that can successfully work around the aoe (and hope the terrain works out in their favor for the aoe to actually be useful), and bring aoe damage.

Clerics spell list is expanded by their domain choice. They already have a spell list that excels in many situations because of how universally useful it is out the gate. You know what's better then having to use an animal form and Pass w/o Trace, which separates you from the party and puts you in a situation to be "split from the party?" Arcane Eye. Both Knowledge and Arcana Clerics gain access to the spell. We talked about aoe before, and the best aoe that a Druid has imo is Call Lightning. However, this requires you to be outside (or at least in a room with a 100' ceiling in which a cloud could form). Tempest Clerics have access to Call Lightning, as well as Shatter; they also have a sweet Channel Divinity to MAXIMIZE that damage. Having an aoe ability that works without the space requirement of Call Lightning that provides maximized damage is pretty amazing. The other aoe contender would be Light Clerics, with Fireball and your mentioned Wall of Fire. In the same manner with which you discuss Ritual Caster (with the stealing of Divination spells), let me bring up Nature Clerics, who are stealing two of the best Druid spells in Spike Growth and Plant Growth and just having them available at all times. And while everyone seems to hate on Trickery Clerics, they gain access to Disguise Self, Pass w/o Trace, Dimension Door, and Polymorph. All amazing and easy to use spells both in and out of combat. So yes, your point on domain choice determining spells available to the Cleric is valid, but in my mind I don't see that as a weakness. I see that as amplifying and improving whats already a solid spell list by expanding options and providing even more spells to the already prepared spell list.

Seeing as how this actually is a discussion about the Druid/Cleric spell list, I don't want to compare domain spell lists to this as well. But as someone who's played plenty of Clerics from early levels up to level 17, I can tell you from experience that prepared spells is a big deal. Simply having a larger list of spells available every day is incredibly powerful, especially if you picked a domain that has spells you want to make use of quite often (which is easy enough to do, because every spell list has at least one amazing spell a Cleric of that domain will use).


I strongly disagree with the bolded parts. Clerics have basically the same handful of spells to use in a fight (Bless/Guiding Bolt/Death Ward/Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians), barring Domain bonus spells.
Which is compensated by the fact that all their spells are friendly but that's also something to be expected of a Cleric in the first place. ^^
And by the fact most of them scale pretty well, which makes them still relevant as long as you pick a high enough slot to cast them from.
Basically, they are "set-and-forget": besides the choice of target, and evaluating around threat for Spirit Guardians specifically (avoiding concentration break / avoiding restrain effects too ;)), it's as efficient in the hands of an experienced player as it is in a newcomer's one: just cast and resolve. It's also logical they don't get much variety: Clerics are not supposed to be that offensive in the first place. ^^

Clerics have the same handful of spells that are pretty much always useful; that is the gist of my argument. This list of spells is universally useful, where as the Druid spell list, while it does have a bit more variety then the Cleric spell list, has to be properly selected or the Druid will be inefficient in being able to contribute to the party. If you catch a Druid by surprise on a day when they had prepared for stealth missions with a major combat-focused dungeon, they might be screwed in how they're able to contribute. A Cleric though, won't be caught in such a situation, as they'll always prepare Bless. This spell is always useful to a party.


Druid spells sure require more finesse and thought, but they can have a much larger effect on how fast you win a fight. And many of them don't require (nor can't for some ^^) to be upcasted to keep relevant, so it makes it easier on resource consumption's curve as the game progress.

How does a spell not being able to be upcast make it easier on resource consumption? Wouldn't spells that are able to be upcast effectively be better at conserving resources? Being able to upcast spells like Bless, Blindness/Deafness, Command, Spirit Guardians, etc makes those spells even more valuable when choosing which spells to add to your spell list. Because they can be upcast, they are more valuable to put on your spell list.

If your focus is aoe effects, Druids can choose to have such spells on their spell list. Clerics can do this only through domain choice, so you got me there. And yes, there are situations in which aoe control will feel like it has a larger effect on how quickly a fight is won. I'll counter with Bless being useful versus anything you shouldn't be able to fight by increasing your chance to hit as well as your chance to beat it's saving throws. Spirit Guardians is party friendly aoe, allowing you to take out swathes of mooks by wading into combat, hurting enemies and not allies (something which Druids don't have access to (party friendly aoe)).

In regards to upcasting as well, I think it was Maxwilson who said something about upcasting Bless to 9th level. Yes, I said you could do that. Would I ever advise someone to do so? No, absolutely not. But it's an option available to a Player should said Player think they need a Bless on 11 characters.


And Druids trump Clerics easily in adventuring and utility, without even starting on its Wild Shape versatility. As you said yourself, much of Cleric's non-combat greatness comes from Divination spells, most of which are rituals, so that is something a Druid could easily make up for if he so wished. Reverse is true but in a lesser way: some of the best adventuring spells are not rituals. ;)

As for the fact that Clerics are much better than Druid in healing (in broad sense), I'd say, fortunately they are, it's their schtick since ancient times. XD

So for me the choice would rather be function of whether you want to have a focused role or a versatile one in the party. AND of course how creative/crafty your DM allows you to be with divination and the like. ;)

Divination is king when it comes to utility. Sure, Wild Shape is useful in that it allows you as the Druid to go scout something out, but that requires you to physically go look at it yourself. Divination magic doesn't require you to do that yourself. And you say Druids can gain this through Ritual Caster, but I'd refer to my comment above about never seeing a Druid ever take that feat. Anything that might be a challenge that a DM puts to Players can be solved by a Cleric for the party, either through proper divination spell usage, communicating with people/creatures (Sending/Tongues), dealing with status effects (Remove Curse), feeding/watering a party, and protecting allies (Death Ward).

I agree with your conclusion though, despite having differing views on some things. The Cleric spell list is generally more universally useful, due to it being a smaller list of unique spells, but doesn't quite fit the same niche(s) you can have a Druid fit due to spell choice.

[MaxWilson]

All Druids have access to Pass w/o Trace and a tiny animal form for scouting... You know what's better then having to use an animal form and Pass w/o Trace, which separates you from the party and puts you in a situation to be "split from the party?" Arcane Eye.

I just want to point out here that Pass Without Trace is also fantastic for smuggling the whole party into places where they don't belong--not just the tiny animal form. +10 to Stealth checks (and no tracks) is such a huge bonus that even the heavily-armored fighter with disadvantage on his Stealth checks instantly becomes pretty good at sneaking past mooks; this goes double if he bothered to take Stealth proficiency.


We talked about aoe before, and the best aoe that a Druid has imo is Call Lightning

Spike Growth is also quite good, like a virtual no-save Fireball on whomever you center it. It does require concentration though.

Ultimately, druids are pretty good at doing one big trick w/ concentration (whether that trick be Pass Without Trace, Conjure Animals, or Spike Growth) but are then restricted to tossing non-concentration stuff like Blight and Ice Storm and Erupting Earth, which tends to be less effective than concentration stuff; clerics are pretty decent at tossing out no-concentration spells like Spiritual Hammer, Blindness, Sanctuary, Cure Wounds, etc., but they tend not to have as good of a "big trick" for their concentration, though there are exceptions for Arcana clerics and Trickery clerics (although then you are really comparing subclass features and not spell lists). I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Spirit Guardians V is anywhere near as tactically transformative as Conjuring 16 Giant Owls, for example.

[Biggstick]

I just want to point out here that Pass Without Trace is also fantastic for smuggling the whole party into places where they don't belong--not just the tiny animal form. +10 to Stealth checks (and no tracks) is such a huge bonus that even the heavily-armored fighter with disadvantage on his Stealth checks instantly becomes pretty good at sneaking past mooks; this goes double if he bothered to take Stealth proficiency.

Spike Growth is also quite good, like a virtual no-save Fireball on whomever you center it. It does require concentration though.

Agreed on the usefulness of Pass w/o Trace. It's a pretty incredible spell!

I also agree on Spike Growth is amazing against a ground based enemy that has to pass through it.

Both of these spells are concentration though. As well they should be though!

[MaxWilson]

Agreed on the usefulness of Pass w/o Trace. It's a pretty incredible spell!

I also agree on Spike Growth is amazing against a ground based enemy that has to pass through it.

Both of these spells are concentration though. As well they should be though!

Agreed. I edited my post to add more on this point. Clerics tend to have better no-concentration options than druids do (e.g. Spiritual Hammer), which is one reason why Moon Druids are popular, since wild shape is one of the few things a druid can do that does not take concentration and is also reasonably cheap and effective.

Maybe it would be helpful at this point to draw up a couple of hypothetical PCs and some adventuring situations so we can compare, contrast, and discuss how the spell lists are helpful?