Anyone Else Think The Wizard's 18th And 20th Level Features Should Swap?

[JNAProductions]

See title. Quite simply put, an extra 3rd level spell per short rest is nice.

But not NEARLY as good as a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will.

[jjadned]

Yea its much better

[Blood of Gaea]

Two extra 3rd level spells, not one. And honestly, I think it's fine as is, having extra spells prepared is nice all on its own, and 3rd level is a pretty good sweet spot of useful spells.

[MaxWilson]

See title. Quite simply put, an extra 3rd level spell per short rest is nice.

But not NEARLY as good as a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will.

The main impact of this change is that you'd see a few more 3-level dips on wizards instead of 2-level dips. E.g. Bladesinger 17/Swashbuckler 3.

Spell mastery is neat in theory, but it's not worth losing all possibility of multiclassing. How many scenarios genuinely require you to cast 50 Shield spells in a row? Not many. It's mainly just the coolness factor of "unlimited" anything.

So, leave Spell Mastery in place, but improve the capstone to be worthwhile. (And improve the other capstones while you're at it too.)

[Iados]

See title. Quite simply put, an extra 3rd level spell per short rest is nice.

But not NEARLY as good as a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will.

Agreed. Unlimited use of spells such as Shield, Magic Missile (especially for evokers), Mirror Image or Misty Step can be quite powerful. Two extra 3rd Level spells? Decent, but not nearly as good. Is a Wizard who can already alter reality with a Wish spell or kill with a mere word going to be impressed by one extra use each of Counterspell and Fly?

If I were DMing a game right now, I'd homerule that the Wizard capstone is changed to one 3rd Level spell at-will. What's hotter than unlimited Scorching Rays? Unlimited Fireballs.

As the PHB currently stands, an 18th level Wizard is better off multiclassing than continuing to invest in the class for a feat and a meh capstone. Better to use those last two levels to dip into something that diversifies the character's abilities.

[Merudo]

Agreed. Unlimited use of spells such as ... Magic Missile (especially for evokers)

Why would you even bother with Magic Missile, it's only 3d4+8 (average 15.5) damage for Evoker... At that point, Firebolt does ~13.5 on a failed save, while Toll the Dead does ~13 (both do double if the save fails).

Magic Missile will only do more damage if enemies can do their saves 85%+ of the time. Not worth it.

Just take Shield. If you want to be different take Absorb Elements instead. Even Longstrider is a better choice.

[Davrix]

Huh never thought of it that way and it is a little lack luster for a 20th I suppose. But what would you take for a 2 lv dip ?

Edit

Makes me sort of wish it was choose 1 3rd level spell for at will casting

Fireball spam anyone :)

[Blood of Gaea]

Huh never thought of it that way and it is a little lack luster for a 20th I suppose. But what would you take for a 2 lv dip ?
Cleric, Rogue, Bard, Fighter, and maybe Warlock all seem like pretty decent 2 level dips.

[Davrix]

Cleric, Rogue, Bard, Fighter, and maybe Warlock all seem like pretty decent 2 level dips.

Just kind of wondering I mean your giving up your stat increase and a 2nd Lv 7 spell on top of the extra third level spells. Just not sure if one or two levels would be worth it. I mean Action surge probably for when yea really need / want that nuke round.

[Blood of Gaea]

Just kind of wondering I mean your giving up your stat increase and a 2nd Lv 7 spell on top of the extra third level spells. Just not sure if one or two levels would be worth it. I mean Action surge probably for when yea really need / want that nuke round.
Cleric: Cantrips, various armor and weapon proficiencies, Knowledge, in particular, gives some nice skills, no lost caster levels.
Rogue: Expertise and Cunning Action.
Bard: Cantrips, Jack of All Trades, inspiration, no lost caster levels.
Fighter: Weapon and armor proficiencies, Action Surge, Con Save if you start as a Fighter.
Warlock: Cantrips, invocations, short rest slots.

Sometimes your build might benefit from those more than your capstone and an ASI, sometimes not.

[Davrix]

Cleric: Cantrips, various armor and weapon proficiencies, Knowledge, in particular, gives some nice skills, no lost caster levels.
Rogue: Expertise and Cunning Action.
Bard: Cantrips, Jack of All Trades, inspiration, no lost caster levels.
Fighter: Weapon and armor proficiencies, Action Surge, Con Save if you start as a Fighter.
Warlock: Cantrips, invocations, short rest slots.

Sometimes your build might benefit from those more than your capstone and an ASI, sometimes not.

Its for a wizard starting at 20 for a short silly game using the Lore wizard from UA so I mean that extra lv 7 spell does seem really appealing to me just for the extra power. I mean I think this demonstrates the posts point nicely. The lv 20 feature isn't very eye catching. So im considering starting out as something else and build up from there.

[Paeleus]

I've always thought the wizard capstone was more meh than the the expenditure of multiclassing into fighter to pick up Action Surge. The pure versatility of being able to drop two spells during a turn when it really matters adds to the wizard's shtick of having some type of answer to any challenge posed.

Is it worth it putting off the free Shield and Misty Step when multiclassing early? YMMV I tend to think that the ability to cast 2 spells during a turn per short rest or whatever would be a legit level 20 capstone, but wizard's got so much it's hard to justify a boost like that.

[Dr. Cliché]

See title. Quite simply put, an extra 3rd level spell per short rest is nice.

But not NEARLY as good as a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will.

I was actually going to start a thread with this exact subject. :smalltongue:


Yeah, the lv18 ability seems way better than the lv20 ability.

Personally, I like the idea of a Wizard taking Misty Step and never walking anywhere again. :smallbiggrin:

[Zalabim]

Huh never thought of it that way and it is a little lack luster for a 20th I suppose. But what would you take for a 2 lv dip ?

Edit

Makes me sort of wish it was choose 1 3rd level spell for at will casting

Fireball spam anyone :)
I'm pretty sure at-will Animate Dead would wreck the world.

[Dr. Cliché]

What if Lv18 let you pick 2 lv1 spells to use at-will, and then lv20 let you pick 2 lv2 spells to use at-will?



I'm pretty sure at-will Animate Dead would wreck the world.

Even at lv20? Given that you can only ever make skeletons or zombies, it seems unlikely that this would be particularly broken.

[MaxWilson]

I'm pretty sure at-will Animate Dead would wreck the world.

*coughcough* Finger of Death.

[Citan]

See title. Quite simply put, an extra 3rd level spell per short rest is nice.

But not NEARLY as good as a 1st and 2nd level spell at-will.
I strongly disagree. Or rather, half-disagree.

Fluff-wise, or "apparence-wise", I agree that "unlimited cast" seems better without any hesitation.

But when you start digging into action economy efficiency, you can only face the facts, and the facts go strongly against your assertion.

1. First level spells
Shield is indeed a great spell to have unlimited, you can basically consider it a permanent +5 to your AC. But it uses your reaction, and does not change how you play with your action.

Other first level spells?
Please tell me which 1st level spell is sufficiently better than just using a cantrip, damage-wise, to be worth taking as unlimited spell?
Chromatic Bolt is the only decent choice, and only if you have only one kind of damage in cantrip and expect to face many unknown different vulnerabilities.
Magic Missile is the only other good choice, and only for Evoker, since thanks to rulings it amounts to the same damage as any cantrip, except sure-hit and force so much better.

Please tell me which 1st level spell would provide a debuff good enough to be worth using against CR 10+ creatures?
Earth Tremor and Thunderwave could *maybe* be worth as an Abjurer, but then you are going straight into melee, putting yourself at risk, just to get a chance to hit 2 or more creatures thus making it a bit better than a Firebolt because of the riders.
You could also, I suppose, spend every turn transforming the whole battlefield with Grease, or cast Fog Cloud in different places to adapt to your allies's placement but honestly, I'd expect a lvl 18th Wizard to contribute *a tad more directly* than that.

2nd level spells
What do we have here?
Scorching Ray: marginally better than a cantrip because several attacks.
Mirror Image: nice way to help bolsteer your defense even higher, but still requires an action to cast and lasts only one minute.
Dragon's Breath, Flaming Sphere: nice spells to take care of the small fry, but since as a free spell you can't upcast it, chances it won't hurt fast enough to really make a useful dent into enemies'HP. Plus it's concentration: again, I'd expect a level 18 Wizard to at least use a mass debuff spell...
Shatter has the same problem: it's good to use when you get it, but gets old quick.

Since we are talking about it, Hold Person only targets one person when base-cast. It would be a waste of action economy not to upcast it in many cases (unless you're pretty confident in enemy failing the save).
Even if you finally manage to make it work because, since unlimited, you can just spam it "until", it still means one or more turns before that in which you were totally useless.

Phantasmal Force is great because few creatures resist INT saves, but only single-target: chances are you won't need such a spell more than once per encounter: I'm pretty sure that Wizard can squeeze out those six 2nd level slots.

I won't detail every spell: the summary is, no 2nd level spell is good enough, when cast as a 2nd level spell, to really contribute something significant in an encounter.

Let's recall that, from the majority of player's experience, most encounters won't last more than 4-5 rounds. Extremely rare will those that go over the 10 rounds. So the opportunity cost of each choice you make for your action is high.

The only one really changing anything in the global action economy is Rope Trick: you could spam it as you wish to get many short rests... But the spell itself has some shortcomings which usually prevent such kind of cheese of happening.

Now lets' view 3rd level spells.

Fireball: large scale, good damage even on save. Much easier to clear minions or put a big dent on medium hordes. Obviously perfect for an Evoker.

Slow: effects are equally devastating whatever kind of creature you target, and with up to 6 in a spread range, chances are you will affect some of them, so you are sure it is never a waste.

Fear: except for the friendly fire part XD, another spell that can instantly affect large groups and provides a benefit that stays worth the cast even at higher levels (although several creatures are immune to fear sadly).

Stinking Cloud: even if that targets Constitution, chances are you will affect some of them: and an action wasted of a powerful creature that could maybe use a breath ability or a powerful multiattack is largely worth several casts of 2nd level spells. ^^

Enemies Abound: target the big bad evil one (perfect as a Diviner) and you'll have your enemy working for you.

See the thing? 3rd level spells are a dimension better than 2nd level spells, because the whole 5e was designed around a big boost of power for all classes at 5th level.
When you are facing high-level enemies, dealing somewhere around 1/10 (or even less depending of CR) of a single or two creature's HP as damage for your action, or trying a debuff to affect only one target and risk having your whole turn wasted, is just not an acceptable idea for anyone that is looking for efficiency. ;)


And since a level 20 Wizard has many ways to create himself a chance at short-resting even in hostile situations, those "2*3rd level slots per short rest" could easily amount to more than 6 more 3rd level spells over the day.

Also, let's take into account the classic Simulacrum:
- for a Diviner Wizard, whichever would be more powerful between "Twin Hold Person" (lvl 18 PHB) and "Twin Slow" (your suggestion)?
- for an Evoker, whichever would be more powerful between "Twin Shatter" (PHB) and "Twin Fireball" (your version)?
I'm pretty sure the answer is as obvious to you as it is to me. ^^

Sorry guys, WoTC was very well aware of power balance here. Mechanically, switching both features would just be undermining yourself. ;)

[JNAProductions]

Except the thing is, while MOST 1st and 2nd level spells aren't worth it even at-will, some are.

So it doesn't matter that Magic Missile is meh when cast from a 1st level slot, because Shield kicks all the butt. 3rd level spells are better... But not THAT much better.

[Citan]

Except the thing is, while MOST 1st and 2nd level spells aren't worth it even at-will, some are.

So it doesn't matter that Magic Missile is meh when cast from a 1st level slot, because Shield kicks all the butt. 3rd level spells are better... But not THAT much better.
Ok... Thanks for providing a totally undocumented and unargumented personal opinion, taking a single spell among around 70 to tell that "unlimited" is better than "short-rest higher".

Totally contributing to the debate here. :)

[JNAProductions]

Ok... Thanks for providing a totally undocumented and unargumented personal opinion, taking a single spell among around 70 to tell that "unlimited" is better than "short-rest higher".

Totally contributing to the debate here.

So you're saying you would, personally, prefer 2 Fireballs or Slows compared to +5 AC, costing only your reaction? Or at-will Paralyzation? It might only be single target, but they're just as likely to fail the save from a 2nd level spell as a 3rd level spell, and Paralyzation allows for auto-crits. Great when you have a Rogue or Paladin in the party.

I'm not saying extra 3rd level slots aren't good. But they're not as good, to me, as an unlimited 1st and 2nd.

[Citan]

So you're saying you would, personally, prefer 2 Fireballs or Slows compared to +5 AC, costing only your reaction? Or at-will Paralyzation? It might only be single target, but they're just as likely to fail the save from a 2nd level spell as a 3rd level spell, and Paralyzation allows for auto-crits. Great when you have a Rogue or Paladin in the party.

I'm not saying extra 3rd level slots aren't good. But they're not as good, to me, as an unlimited 1st and 2nd.
To be honest, I'd say it depends on the kind of party.
For a solo character, sure, I'll always find unlimited Shield (or Misty Step for that matter) better.

Or if I was an Abjurer that actually likes nothing more than wading into melee, using melee cantrips or cone spells.
Or if I was a Bladesinger that plays "for himself", just using self-buffs to be amazing in sustained damage (Shield + Mirror Image or Misty Step or Flaming Sphere).

But as long as I'm in a party, I expect I won't be hit by Shield often enough to make it blow the ~7-8 count over a day.
And in exchange for that, I can immediately soften up or outright kill a bunch of low-life that could otherwise provide some threat because of sheer number with a Fireball, or I could try and Slow a group of the higher level creatures, or Haste my pal so he can rush and wreak havoc if really I want to spare my resources and want a sure-hit spell (or having that pal reach and kill the BBEG as fast as possible is actually the best course of action, but honestly think you have much better spells to use for that kind of fight anyways).
Nothing that any Wizard couldn't manage between base slots and Arcane Recovery.

But to be honest I think this debate is only worth for Easy to Medium encounters anyways. When you get these features, your basic enemy will probably be at least CR 4 or 5, and you'll often fight enemies with >CR10 with lots of HP, so even 3rd level spells often won't be good enough imo.

At least in my experience, whenever I'd enter an encounter that we suspect is higher than "Medium", my party would always expect me to open fight with at least a 4th or 5th level spell at the minimum depending on whether we need more battlefield control or direct damage, because that level of spell has a much better chance to immediately affect power balance in a way that actually makes a difference in the behaviour of both sides.

Still, I completely admit that my view is biaised by my own past experiences. I'd like other people to come and tell how it went for them as high level Wizard. ;)



Personally, I like the idea of a Wizard taking Misty Step and never walking anywhere again. :smallbiggrin:
I love this idea. XD

[Dr. Cliché]

1. First level spells
Shield is indeed a great spell to have unlimited, you can basically consider it a permanent +5 to your AC. But it uses your reaction, and does not change how you play with your action.

Isn't that the best thing about it, though? :smallconfused:



Other first level spells?
Please tell me which 1st level spell is sufficiently better than just using a cantrip, damage-wise, to be worth taking as unlimited spell?

Are you looking for pure power or is fun allowed also?

I mean, in terms of non-damage spells, you've got:

Absorb Elements (Shield is probably better, but some campaigns may feature more spells/elemental attacks)

Disguise Self (I'm sure a wizard could have fun with this)

Expeditious Retreat (Concentration could be a pain, but the fact that you can freely drop it and then recast this again for free whenever makes it less painful.)

Jump (Presenting Randalf Greylegs, master of the high and long jump! :smallbiggrin:)

LongStrider (Give yourself +10ft movement speed basically forever. And then give it to all your mates and everyone you meet. The great wizard brings strange gifts.)

Unseen Servant (Arise my army of invisible butlers!)

I appreciate that these aren't the most useful spells for combat, but they would make for fun times (and could better fit some backgrounds).



Mirror Image: nice way to help bolsteer your defense even higher, but still requires an action to cast and lasts only one minute.

It might only last 1 minute, but isn't that the whole point of being able to cast it at-will? You can use it whenever someone so much as sneezes threateningly in your direction, without ever having to worry about burning spell slots.

In terms of other spells, Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Misty Step, Invisibility, Enlarge/Reduce, Spider Climb and Suggestion all seem like they could be useful (or just fun) to be usable at-will.



Let's recall that, from the majority of player's experience, most encounters won't last more than 4-5 rounds. Extremely rare will those that go over the 10 rounds. So the opportunity cost of each choice you make for your action is high.

If you're only looking at combat, sure.



[B]See the thing? 3rd level spells are a dimension better than 2nd level spells, because the whole 5e was designed around a big boost of power for all classes at 5th level.

Isn't that missing the point a little though?

No one is arguing that 1st or 2nd level spells are better than 3rd level ones. They're arguing that a 1st and 2nd level spell castable at-will is better than 2 extra 3rd level spells castable once each per short rest.


I mean, if you only consider their use in combat, then you might be right (though at-will Shield and Mirror Image might still give them a run for their money in terms of defence). However, I'd have thought the bigger draw would be the ability to use these spells outside of combat.

For example, Misty Step might be useful only infrequently in combat, but surely you can see the appeal in being able to teleport at-will? Same goes for stuff like changing your appearance any time you like by means of Disguise Self or Alter Self. Or how about using Spider Climb to absentmindedly scale buildings (bonus points for being engrossed in a book and pretending not to notice that you're walking up a wall). If you're the manipulative type, I'm sure Suggestion at-will could be useful in many social situations. And a more athletic/acrobatic wizard might well enjoy being able to imitate anime characters in terms of jumping distances. :smallwink:

Are they as useful in combat as 3rd level spells? Probably not. Would they be more fun to use in day-to-day activities and social interactions? Almost certainly.

Each to their own, but I know which one I'd choose. :smallsmile:

[Citan]

I mean, in terms of non-damage spells, you've got:

For example, Misty Step might be useful only infrequently in combat, but surely you can see the appeal in being able to teleport at-will? Same goes for stuff like changing your appearance any time you like by means of Disguise Self or Alter Self. Or how about using Spider Climb to absentmindedly scale buildings (bonus points for being engrossed in a book and pretending not to notice that you're walking up a wall). If you're the manipulative type, I'm sure Suggestion at-will could be useful in many social situations. And a more athletic/acrobatic wizard might well enjoy being able to imitate anime characters in terms of jumping distances. :smallwink:

Are they as useful in combat as 3rd level spells? Probably not. Would they be more fun to use in day-to-day activities and social interactions? Almost certainly.

Each to their own, but I know which one I'd choose. :smallsmile:
I actually 100% agree with that. It would in fact be my first use of them.
And that's why I prefer lvl 18 ability to lvl 20, because you can change every long rest. Meaning you can get your freebies that fit the next day, every day.

But the thing is, none of those you're talking about will significantly chance the balance or way to approach social/exploration challenges compared to a "normal" Wizard which has to ritual-cast of spend slots. If Misty Step was the best way to get across a chasm, then chances are the normal Wizard will do the same as the at-will Wizard. If Comprehend Languages was required to fit into a place, then normal Wizard will just ritual cast it, maybe even using a 1st level slot to extend it if need be.
If you needed Suggestion to make someone do something, then depending on your DM free casting would be useless because as soon as you fail the creature would get hostile (yeah, it's not RAW, but I saw quite a few DMs make it realize you tried magic on it. There is also the plain fact that you don't have Subtle, so it's difficult to hide the cast).
At worst, he'll have spent a few 1st level and 2nd level spells. Really not a big deal even if just after he suddenly had to engage a fight.
Same with Disguise Self and Alter Self: when used for specific challenges, it's just a matter of a few slots (of course if you are considering spending all the time under a new identity -which is indeed a great idea- then you need the at-will Xd).

All you are talking about is having fun with low-level slots to make your character more original and authentic.

Which is actually imo an excellent reason to keep this at 18th level.:smallwink:
And which is a totally different thing than what the original post was about, swapping for power-balance reasons, which is a question primarily related to combat, not the rest. :)

[Merudo]

As for a good at-will level 2 spell, maybe we could consider See Invisibility? It lasts one hour and doesn't take concentration, so you can cast it every hour and be able to always see invisible creatures or objects.

Not very exciting, I know, but probably better than most options. Level 2 spells are usually not worth casting in combat at higher levels, and are typically a waste of concentration.

[Citan]

As for a good at-will level 2 spell, maybe we could consider See Invisibility? It lasts one hour and doesn't take concentration, so you can cast it every hour and be able to always see invisible creatures or objects.

Not very exciting, I know, but probably better than most options. Level 2 spells are usually not worth casting in combat at higher levels, and are typically a waste of concentration.
And if I'm not mistaken, it's not a "self" spell but a "touch" spell, so you could in fact empower a whole bunch of people. Probably not jawbreaking at that level, but I could imagine a few funny uses of lower minions. ^^

[Dr. Cliché]

I actually 100% agree with that. It would in fact be my first use of them.
And that's why I prefer lvl 18 ability to lvl 20, because you can change every long rest. Meaning you can get your freebies that fit the next day, every day.

You also get them two levels earlier, which is always nice. :smallbiggrin:




But the thing is, none of those you're talking about will significantly chance the balance or way to approach social/exploration challenges compared to a "normal" Wizard which has to ritual-cast of spend slots. If Misty Step was the best way to get across a chasm, then chances are the normal Wizard will do the same as the at-will Wizard. If Comprehend Languages was required to fit into a place, then normal Wizard will just ritual cast it, maybe even using a 1st level slot to extend it if need be.

Yep, that's very true.




If you needed Suggestion to make someone do something, then depending on your DM free casting would be useless because as soon as you fail the creature would get hostile (yeah, it's not RAW, but I saw quite a few DMs make it realize you tried magic on it. There is also the plain fact that you don't have Subtle, so it's difficult to hide the cast).

Hmm, I hadn't heard of that ruling before.




All you are talking about is having fun with low-level slots to make your character more original and authentic.

Well, you've still got Shield and Mirror Image if you want to go for pure power/combat spells.

I just think there's a lot more fun to be had with other spells that have more use outside of combat.



Which is actually imo an excellent reason to keep this at 18th level.:smallwink:

Well, I certainly don't object to them being lv18. If nothing else it means I can safely use two levels multicalssing. :smallwink:

(Not that I think the wizard capstone is bad - far from it - just that I'd be a lot more reluctant to give up at-will Lv1/2 spells than I would extra castings of Lv3 spells.)



And which is a totally different thing than what the original post was about, swapping for power-balance reasons, which is a question primarily related to combat, not the rest. :)

I'd thought the original post was asking in general terms, not just in terms of power. Maybe I misinterpreted it.

Regardless, I think we're pretty much in agreement anyway. The extra lv3 spells are probably going to be more valuable for power/combat purposes, but the at-will Lv1/2 abilities will probably be more fun and better for solidifying character identity. Does that sound about right?

[JNAProductions]

I was posting from a mostly combat-based point of view, since that's what D&D is primarily about. I definitely agree that they have plenty of out of combat uses, should you desire them, but I'm not OVERLY concerned about out of combat balance.

[Citan]

Not that I think the wizard capstone is bad - far from it - just that I'd be a lot more reluctant to give up at-will Lv1/2 spells than I would extra castings of Lv3 spells.


I'd thought the original post was asking in general terms, not just in terms of power. Maybe I misinterpreted it.

Regardless, I think we're pretty much in agreement anyway. The extra lv3 spells are probably going to be more valuable for power/combat purposes, but the at-will Lv1/2 abilities will probably be more fun and better for solidifying character identity. Does that sound about right?
We completely agree on this.
Although I'd like to point out that part of that awesomness comes from the fact you can change lvl 1 and 2.
If you had to choose them once and for all like the 3rd level spells, I'd really hesitate much more whichever I'd keep if I had to choose...

Because that's the whole story of my life: I don't like to choose, at least in a definitive way (which is problematic in so many aspects of life, as one could expect). :smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Cliché]

We completely agree on this.
Although I'd like to point out that part of that awesomness comes from the fact you can change lvl 1 and 2.

Yeah, it's always nice when you have that option.



Because that's the whole story of my life: I don't like to choose, at least in a definitive way (which is problematic in so many aspects of life, as one could expect). :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I'm definitely with you there.

[Daphne]

Why would you even bother with Magic Missile, it's only 3d4+8 (average 15.5) damage for Evoker... At that point, Firebolt does ~13.5 on a failed save, while Toll the Dead does ~13 (both do double if the save fails).

1- MM would do 3*(1d4+6) = 25.5 damage
2- Firebolt isn't a save so it does not do half damage if you miss

[Dr. Cliché]

1- MM would do 3*(1d4+6) = 25.5 damage

Are you sure you get to add your Int modifier to each missile?

[Daphne]

Are you sure you get to add your Int modifier to each missile?

Yes, you roll once for all missiles (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/774030989894955008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F1 0%2F17%2Fmagic-missile-do-you-roll-the-same-d4-for-all-darts%2F)

[Citan]

1- MM would do 3*(1d4+6) = 25.5 damage
2- Firebolt isn't a save so it does not do half damage if you miss
Indeed. Some could argue it would make Evoker on par or better with a "plain" Agonizing Blast non-Hexblade Warlock, since it's automatic damage while Warlock can still miss.

Obviously, an Eldricht Blast dedicated Hexblade Warlock would feel no threat though: when you stack all related invocations and features, it's just so efficient it even trumps a Sharpshooter Fighter. ^^


Are you sure you get to add your Int modifier to each missile?
Yeah, as strange and counter-intuitive as it may seem. Good for Magic Missile, gives him a bit of use past the first few levels (although people have been smart enough to use it "defensively" too I would have never thought of it ^^) at least for one School.

[Blood of Gaea]

I've never actually played an Evoker Wizard, I've had two Wizards with it, I ended up using mostly:

Illusionist: Silent Image and Misty Step.

Abjuration: Shield and Mirror Image.

[Zalabim]

Even at lv20? Given that you can only ever make skeletons or zombies, it seems unlikely that this would be particularly broken.
I'm not talking about its power. I'm talking about the ability to animate every corpse you come across without really caring about the consequences. Especially without caring about the consequences. Animate Dead. Set it off to do something, anything, or even nothing. Just forget about it. It makes skeletons and zombies so cheap you can use them like Unseen Servants, then leave them behind for someone else to clean up the mess. A whole lot of mess.

*coughcough* Finger of Death.
Is a lot more limited and doesn't have the wizard lose control of them.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm not talking about its power. I'm talking about the ability to animate every corpse you come across without really caring about the consequences. Especially without caring about the consequences. Animate Dead. Set it off to do something, anything, or even nothing. Just forget about it. It makes skeletons and zombies so cheap you can use them like Unseen Servants, then leave them behind for someone else to clean up the mess. A whole lot of mess.

To be honest, that sounds perfect for a Necromancer who has reached the zenith of wizardly power.

[AHF]

Yes, you roll once for all missiles (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/774030989894955008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F1 0%2F17%2Fmagic-missile-do-you-roll-the-same-d4-for-all-darts%2F)

Where does it talk about adding the intelligence modifier? I see the direction about rolling a single d4 (rather than 3d4).

[Iados]

To be honest, that sounds perfect for a Necromancer who has reached the zenith of wizardly power.

Pretty much. Level 20 in D&D is supposed to represent the pinnacle of human (uhm...or elven...or dwarvish...etc.) achievement. If you're a wizard who has reached this level, you've had at least the potential to warp space since Level 14, and you've had the potential to shape reality itself to your whim since Level 17, albeit with some risks involved. If you hit level 20, you're one of the most powerful sentient beings on the planet, if not the most powerful humanoid. The ability to Animate Dead at will is far from a game-breaker for a character that has already had the ability to create gates to the Abyss and kill with a single word for some time.

[PopeLinus1]

Pretty much. Level 20 in D&D is supposed to represent the pinnacle of human (uhm...or elven...or dwarvish...etc.) achievement. If you're a wizard who has reached this level, you've had at least the potential to warp space since Level 14, and you've had the potential to shape reality itself to your whim since Level 17, albeit with some risks involved. If you hit level 20, you're one of the most powerful sentient beings on the planet, if not the most powerful humanoid. The ability to Animate Dead at will is far from a game-breaker for a character that has already had the ability to create gates to the Abyss and kill with a single word for some time.

Yeah and it’s probably not a game breaker, just a massive display of epic power.

[Pex]

An Illusionist wants at will Silent Image. An at will wall or cage of real adamantine alone beats Shield let alone anything he can imagine to become real.