Elven Accuracy/Shield Master fighter-rogue-would it work?

[Willie the Duck]

Hi all, I'm putting together in my head the idea of mixing the 19+ crit of a Champion Fighter, Elven Accuracy (necessitating an elf or half-elf), the consistent (with limitations) advantage of shield master (and increased assurance of successfully pushing the opponent due to expertise on Athletics), with added crit-damage of sneak attack. The base concept is simple: push down your opponents using a shove bonus action, then get 1-4 attacks (depending on how long one stays a fighter), each having 3 attempts to roll 19+ and crit. Then the sneak attack damage makes up for the fact that you are attacking with advantage, but not with a 2-handed weapon and GWM, as a samurai or Bless-dependent Elven Accuracy build might be.

The question becomes: can it be made to work relatively competitively? Anyone tried similar and/or have advice?
Thanks!

[Arvin Natsuko]

Just some quick observations:

First, you have a little MAD problem. See, you have to attackwith Dex to use Elven Accuracy, but, even with expertise, you want Str to get people prone.

Besides that, I recommend you look at the other members of your party por ways to gain advantage and use the Elven Accuracy. In my experience, the party sinergy is very important. The build en tha vacuum is different from the char in the game.

Other than that, seems like a nice fun char to play.

[Blood of Gaea]

It should work fine, so long as you get Expertise in Athletics. Try to avoid letting your Str be under 10.

An example of a stat layout would be:

Race: Half-Elf
Str: 12 or 14
Dex: 15+1
Con: 13+1
Int: 10
Wis: 12 or 14
Cha: 8+2

[the secret fire]

Also note that Evasion is largely (though not completely) redundant with Shield Master, so you don't want to progress to Rogue 7 if you're taking Shield Master. You will also probably want to start as a Rogue for Dex save proficiency, which may mean you'll want to pick up Resilient (Con) at some point along the road, for obvious reasons. Starting as a Fighter and picking up Resilient (Dex) also works, but as you're already getting +1 Dex from EA, this is difficult to fit properly,

[Blood of Gaea]

Starting as a Fighter and picking up Resilient (Dex) also works, but as you're already getting +1 Dex from EA, this is difficult to fit properly,
If you look at my above example of starting with 16 Dex, Eleven Accuracy and Resilient would bump you up to an even 18. If you went Fighter 5, Rogue 15, you'd actually end up proficient in Con, Dex, Wis, and Str saves, which is pretty awesome. Though Wis wouldn't come until 20th.

[the secret fire]

If you look at my above example of starting with 16 Dex, Eleven Accuracy and Resilient would bump you up to an even 18. If you went Fighter 5, Rogue 15, you'd actually end up proficient in Con, Dex, Wis, and Str saves, which is pretty awesome. Though Wis wouldn't come until 20th.

If we're talking about a full elf, I see no reason not to start at 17 Dex, and bump it up to 18 by taking EA with the first ASI. Given that this charactert is multi-classing, and is designed around another specific feat (Shield Master) in mind...he is going to be waiting forever to hit 18 Dex going on your suggestion. Not sure if that's wise.

I see that your suggestion is for a half elf, but I don't see the point. The +2 Cha is largely wasted on this character, and the lower Dex will hurt. Think he's better off going with a full elf and a 17 Dex to start.

[Blood of Gaea]

If we're talking about a full elf, I see no reason not to start at 17 Dex, and bump it up to 18 by taking EA with the first ASI. Given that this is a non vhuman character, one that is multiclassing, and one that is designed around another specific feat (Shield Master)...this character is going to be waiting forever to hit 18 Dex going on your suggestion. Not sure if that's wise.

I see that your suggestion is for a half elf, but I don't see the point. The +2 Cha is largely wasted on this character, and the lower Dex will hurt. Think he's better off going with a full elf and a 17 Dex to start.
*Shrug* you could always delay Resilient (Dex). And to be honest, for this build, you're probably going to want 6 levels of Fighter to snag the extra ASI. Getting proficiency in Wis is nice, but level 20 is a holy grail more often than not.

So you'd get something like:

Fighter 4: Shield Master.
Fighter 6: Elven Accuracy, 17 Dex.
Fighter 6/Rogue 4: +2 Dex, 19 Dex.
Fighter 6/Rogue 8: Resilient (Dex), 20 Dex.

I suggested Half-Elf mostly because the +1 Int or +1 Wis would be mostly superfluous to this build, and in my opinion, the proficiency would be more valuable than +1 more to Dex. The second +1 also can be put into a useful stat.
Of course, other methods are viable, that's just how I would go about it.

If you did decide to go for the +2 Dex bonus from a race, I would probably drop Resilient (Dex) as a feat. The biggest thing I see to gain from starting Rogue is getting athletics expertise sooner.

[Chugger]

You get the sneak attack dice once per turn (twice per round if you finagle a way to do it in your reaction, like using haste to s.a. regular and ready your main attack) - Divine Smiting is another way to get crazy good albeit burst damage out of the e.a. feat. At least one level in Hexblade to use cha to attack and either go up in hex or pal to get smites - I'd go Pal 2 and then something to get a lot of slots - maybe draconic sorc to get meta magic too.

For this - what you're talking about here - you can make the sneak attacks work w/ e.a. cuz they are dex based. E.a. doesn't work w/ a str attack. But you need str to have a good chance to knock down. A lock can get adv easily w/ darkness and devil's site invo. You just need a non-small room or area to fight in - a non hallway - if you don't want to blind the rest of your party, assuming they can't see in the magical dark.

[Blood of Gaea]

but you need str to have a good chance to knock down.
With a 12 in strength as well as expertise in athletics, you're looking at a +5-13 bonus.

EDIT: I also just decided to check the math, and the chance of rolling a 19 or 20 on the best of 3 d20 rolls is 27.1%.

For comparison, there's a 10% chance on a normal roll, and 19% chance with normal advantage.

As a bonus, burning a use of the Lucky Feat on top of Elven Accuracy would give a 34.39% chance.

[kardar233]

Honestly I don’t feel like Sneak Attack is getting you much in this build, as you only get one chance to get it per turn. If your second or third attacks crit, you don’t get that double bonus for Sneak Attack.

I’d definitely look at going into Paladin or Warlock for crit-Smite, which (contrary to Sneak Attack) will play well with multiple attacks. Valor Bard might also work for you, and gets you Expertise without going Rogue.

[Blood of Gaea]

Honestly I don’t feel like Sneak Attack is getting you much in this build, as you only get one chance to get it per turn. If your second or third attacks crit, you don’t get that double bonus for Sneak Attack.

I’d definitely look at going into Paladin or Warlock for crit-Smite, which (contrary to Sneak Attack) will play well with multiple attacks. Valor Bard might also work for you, and gets you Expertise without going Rogue.
Provided he takes two attacks with advantage per turn, he has around a ~50% chance to get a critical hit. When an attack crits, he applies sneak attack to that damage, doubling it. The benefit of using this over Smite is that it isn't a limited resource, it can crit-fish sneak attacks until he drops dead.

[Uzgul]

Honestly I don’t feel like Sneak Attack is getting you much in this build, as you only get one chance to get it per turn. If your second or third attacks crit, you don’t get that double bonus for Sneak Attack.

I’d definitely look at going into Paladin or Warlock for crit-Smite, which (contrary to Sneak Attack) will play well with multiple attacks. Valor Bard might also work for you, and gets you Expertise without going Rogue.
You don't have to add your sneak attack to your first hit. You can forgo it to gamble on a later crit. As the chance of missing your target is pretty low, the gamble might be worth it.

Regarding bard, blade bard might also work well. Gives expertise and a dice to add to the critical.
Maybe something like blade bard 6+ / Champion 4 / Paladin 2.
That's lot's of slots for smiting plus blade flourishes. The primary problem would be the madness and lack of ASI. So the ability scores would be pretty bad.

[kardar233]

Hmm, I stand corrected on Sneak Attack. In that case, it’s probably worth it to go a fair ways in Rogue if your party goes a while between rests; if you feel like you can nova, go Paladin or Warlock.

[The Zoat]

EDIT: I also just decided to check the math, and the chance of rolling a 19 or 20 on the best of 3 d20 rolls is 27.1%.

For comparison, there's a 10% chance on a normal roll, and 19% chance with normal advantage.


Out of curiosity, how did you come to that figure? My first impression was that it would scale really simply, going from 10 to 20 to 30%, since each roll just adds another chance to roll 19 or 20.

[Uzgul]

Probabilities don't work additive. Otherwise rolling 10d20 would allways roll a critical.
Basically you have to calculate [number of results, that crit] / [total number of possible results]. In this case this can be simplified to
1 - 0,9^[dices rolled]
as you have a 90% chance to not crit on each dice and the probability to not do something is multiplied. So 0.9*0.9*0.9 = 0.729 to not land a crit on an attack with 3 dice. Thus 1 - 0.729 = 0.271 = 27.1% to land a critical.

[Citan]

Hi all, I'm putting together in my head the idea of mixing the 19+ crit of a Champion Fighter, Elven Accuracy (necessitating an elf or half-elf), the consistent (with limitations) advantage of shield master (and increased assurance of successfully pushing the opponent due to expertise on Athletics), with added crit-damage of sneak attack. The base concept is simple: push down your opponents using a shove bonus action, then get 1-4 attacks (depending on how long one stays a fighter), each having 3 attempts to roll 19+ and crit. Then the sneak attack damage makes up for the fact that you are attacking with advantage, but not with a 2-handed weapon and GWM, as a samurai or Bless-dependent Elven Accuracy build might be.

The question becomes: can it be made to work relatively competitively? Anyone tried similar and/or have advice?
Thanks!
Hi!

Yeah, it will work extremely fine.

Three main ways to go at it from what I see.

Optimal theorycraft: Fighter 5 / Rogue 15.
Either start Fighter for a balanced character saves-wise, or start DEX and pick Resilient: Constitution later.

I'd go Fighter first for a simple reason: CON effects at low level are imx more dangerous than DEX, and between high DEX score, Shield Master and Evasion/Uncanny Dodge, you should not be that often affected. And you could still pick Resilient: Dex later.
Main problem of this is that you'll wait likely your 20th character to finally be proficient in Wisdom saves. And that is very bad usually. ^^
So let's fall back on builds that are wrapped up earlier shall we? ;)

Optimal balance in practice: Fighter 6+ Rogue 11+.
Start Fighter, keep STR at 10 or 12 max (you really don't care much about it as far as your tactic goes, just know that STR effects like Entangle spells will be dangerous for you. In that regard, Champion's level 7 ability is worth picking). Pick Resilient Wisdom as soon as you feel it needed.
Fighter 1 > Rogue 1 > Fighter 6 > Rogue X
or Fighter 3 > Rogue 11 > X
or Fighter 1 > Rogue 1 > Fighter 5 > Rogue X
or Fighter 1 > Rogue 5 > Fighter 3 > Rogue 7 > Fighter 5 > Rogue 11...
Will work fine.
It depends on your priority, whether it's sure-shove, resilience or Elven Accuracy.
I'd pick Arcane Trickster as my Rogue archetype and go the second route but that's just me.

Anyways, around character lvl 15, you'll be a killing machine (well, you'll be before that probably but more swingier ^^): Reliable Talent + Expertise means your check cannot be inferior to 20 with STR 10. Add Enlarge from AT if you want to also get advantage on your checks, or ask a Cleric pal to Bless you if really that isn't enough.

Optimal attack in pratice:
Build your character as STR instead, just putting 14 in DEX for multiclass.
That leaves you even better for your tactic: you will rock very early and once Reliable Talent kicks in you'll be unavoidable (25 Athletics check without rolling)...
But not unstoppable: you have to choose one of DEX, WIS or CON to sacrifice because...
- Whether you start Rogue or Fighter you'll have only one of the big three covered.
- You can only take one Resilient.
- Your plain DEX won't be enough by itself.
Unless you take a 2-3 level dip into Bear Barbarian for danger sense and resistance to all damage, but that is a big stretch concept-wise.

Anyways... It will work in the end, but depending on the features you want it will not necessarily be the easiest. ^^

[Renchard]

You don't have to add your sneak attack to your first hit. You can forgo it to gamble on a later crit. As the chance of missing your target is pretty low, the gamble might be worth it.
It's worth the gamble as long as your miss chance is lower than your crit chance, since the amount of sneak attack dice you gain from a crit is equal to the sneak attack dice you'd lose from a second miss.

Let's see: an attack has a 27.1% crit chance with tri-vantage and 19-20 crit range. It no longer becomes worth the gamble if your miss chance is 65%
before tri-vantage (hit chance 35%, or requiring a 14 or higher on the d20 to hit.) Needing a 14 to hit with tri-vantage gives a 27.5% miss chance.





Optimal attack in pratice:
Build your character as STR instead, just putting 14 in DEX for multiclass.
Doesn't work with Elven Accuracy, which requires a non-Str attack to work.

[Lombra]

Grappler would be cool too. Just throwin' it here, since grappling doesn't grind your ranged party member's gears.

[Citan]

Doesn't work with Elven Accuracy, which requires a non-Str attack to work.
Erk, I knew I was forgetting something essential.

Thanks for the rectification. DEX build all the way it is then (unless you take a level of Hexblade Warlock in here but it's not technically necessary ^^).

[Blood of Gaea]

Out of curiosity, how did you come to that figure? My first impression was that it would scale really simply, going from 10 to 20 to 30%, since each roll just adds another chance to roll 19 or 20.
Anydice.com is the best way to get rolling probabilities, here (http://anydice.com/program/74a7) is the equation I plugged in. Make sure to click the "at least" button.


Optimal theorycraft: Fighter 5 / Rogue 15.
Either start Fighter for a balanced character saves-wise, or start DEX and pick Resilient: Constitution later.

I'd go Fighter first for a simple reason: CON effects at low level are imx more dangerous than DEX, and between high DEX score, Shield Master and Evasion/Uncanny Dodge, you should not be that often affected. And you could still pick Resilient: Dex later.
Main problem of this is that you'll wait likely your 20th character to finally be proficient in Wisdom saves. And that is very bad usually. ^^
So let's fall back on builds that are wrapped up earlier shall we? ;)

Optimal balance in practice: Fighter 6+ Rogue 11+.
Start Fighter, keep STR at 10 or 12 max (you really don't care much about it as far as your tactic goes, just know that STR effects like Entangle spells will be dangerous for you. In that regard, Champion's level 7 ability is worth picking). Pick Resilient Wisdom as soon as you feel it needed.
Fighter 1 > Rogue 1 > Fighter 6 > Rogue X
or Fighter 3 > Rogue 11 > X
or Fighter 1 > Rogue 1 > Fighter 5 > Rogue X
or Fighter 1 > Rogue 5 > Fighter 3 > Rogue 7 > Fighter 5 > Rogue 11...
Will work fine.
It depends on your priority, whether it's sure-shove, resilience or Elven Accuracy.
The largest problem with Fighter 5/Rogue 15 is delaying your second feat until 9th level.

And I still would say starting with straight Fighter 6 is the best idea, as it's the only way to jam two ASI into those first 6 levels, and the build needs Shield Master and Elven Accuracy to work as intended, and you also pick up Extra Attack as early as possible. After that, all remaining levels can go into Rogue.

The biggest downside is needing to wait until 8th level for expertise. But a 12 or 14 in Str combined with proficiency should hold him over.

As for a subclass, I would personally choose scout. Though Arcane Trickster would be a solid choice too, and Theif would be half decent.


Grappler would be cool too. Just throwin' it here, since grappling doesn't grind your ranged party member's gears.
Very true, and you can also use shove as a 5-foot push instead. But more often than not, the advantage on their and other melee PCs attacks will be well worth it.

[Ali_face]

Im playing this combination myself right now, went Rogue 1 (starting) -> Fighter 6 (Battle Master), then plan to go Rogue the rest of the way with a minor dip into Warlock for the Hexblade shenanigans and Invocations. Picked up Shield Master at F4, and Elven Accuracy at F6.

Im not sure which Rogue Archetype ill be picking up at 9th, Im torn between Arcane Trickster for spells and Swashbuckler for mobility and Charisma based abilities.

I went Battle-Master instead of the traditional Champion build for 2 reasons; the first are those sweet sweet AoO Sneak attacks with Riposte, and the second was that those maneuver dice also double when you crit.

After F6/R5, Im also planning on taking a 2 level dip into Warlock (Hexblade) which will give me the 19-20 crit range.

[Willie the Duck]

Regarding bard, blade bard might also work well. Gives expertise and a dice to add to the critical.
Maybe something like blade bard 6+ / Champion 4 / Paladin 2.
That's lot's of slots for smiting plus blade flourishes. The primary problem would be the madness and lack of ASI. So the ability scores would be pretty bad.

That is a great build that is out-of-concept.

Here is the initial premise: We play low-rest dungeon crawls. The Champion actually is plausible for our playstyle, but still needs work. The traditional way I do that is play a vuman Champion who gets 4 out of GWM, PAM, Resilient:Wis, SS, and Sentinel by level 8--which at this point seems cheap/cheezy/whatever. I'd like to find another good idea, and shield master seems like it would be doable, and maybe even doable without 5 feats.

[Citan]

Anydice.com is the best way to get rolling probabilities, here (http://anydice.com/program/74a7) is the equation I plugged in. Make sure to click the "at least" button.


The largest problem with Fighter 5/Rogue 15 is delaying your second feat until 9th level.

And I still would say starting with straight Fighter 6 is the best idea, as it's the only way to jam two ASI into those first 6 levels, and the build needs Shield Master and Elven Accuracy to work as intended, and you also pick up Extra Attack as early as possible. After that, all remaining levels can go into Rogue.

The biggest downside is needing to wait until 8th level for expertise. But a 12 or 14 in Str combined with proficiency should hold him over.

As for a subclass, I would personally choose scout. Though Arcane Trickster would be a solid choice too, and Theif would be half decent.


Very true, and you can also use shove as a 5-foot push instead. But more often than not, the advantage on their and other melee PCs attacks will be well worth it.
Well, if you really look purely at mechanics and optimization, then indeed you are right starting straight up to Fighter 6 for the two feats is the best.

But it also means you play purely as a Fighter up to level 7, that's a bit sad imo. :)

[Willie the Duck]

I think I'd get at least a level of rogue. Rogue/fighters are some of the funnest concepts to play.