Heavy Armor Master

[Ryuu Hayato]

HAM:
While you are wearing heavy armor, bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage that you take from non-magical weapons is reduced by 3.


PHB:
Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage. For example, a creature has resistance to bludgeoning damage and is hit by an attack that deals 25 bludgeoning damage. The creature is also within a magical aura that reduces all damage by 5. The 25 damage is first reduced by 5 and then halved, so the creature takes 10 damage.


• Pact of the Blade:
- This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks and damage.
• Ki-Empowered Strikes:
- Your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks and damage.


Monster Manual examples:
• Deva
- Angelic Weapons. The deva's weapon attacks are magical.
• Balor
- Magic Weapons. The balor's weapon attacks are magical.

By RAW, or my interpretation, HAM's -3 reduction isn't a weapon resistance. Then, features like Pact of the Blade and Ki-Empowered Strikes don't overcome -3 reduction on weapon damage rolls, since the attacks still non-magical (they just counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks and damage), unlike features like Angelic Weapons and Magic Weapons, who claim that the attacks are magical. So, it's craziness by my part, or it's a good point-of-view?

[Blood of Gaea]

Technically you would be correct, but I would never rule it that way.

[Angelalex242]

Eh.

I see no reason to nerf the feat, might as well let the PC who takes it get all the use he can out of it. It's only -3 for gods' sakes.

[Lalliman]

I agree that it's technically correct.

I don't even follow the non-magical restriction on HAM though. I feel like magic weapons should only bypass resistance that is magical or supernatural in nature. That of HAM is just physical cushioning, bypassing it doesn't really make sense.

[Sidson]

By RAW (or my interpretation), HAM's -3 reduction isn't a weapon resistance, then features like Pact of the Blade and Ki-Empowered Strikes don't overcome -3 reduction on weapon damage rolls, since the attacks still a non-magical, unlike features like Angelic Weapons and Magic Weapons. So, it's craziness by my part, or it's a good point-of-view?

You are 100% correct. HAM reduces non-magical weapon damage. Warlock Blade and Ki-Strikes deal non-magical weapon damage, but overcome the resistance/immunity to this type of damage.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's only -3 for gods' sakes. This seems to me to be the point. :smallcool:

[Caelic]

To be honest, I just let the -3 apply to magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing attacks as well. That actually makes the feat at least marginally useful after level 6 or so.

[Tanarii]

I don't get the logic. If something counts as magical for a purpose, there's no distinction from something that is magical for that purpose..

[Matrix_Walker]

I don't get the logic. If something counts as magical for a purpose, there's no distinction from something that is magical for that purpose..

The point is that it only counts as magical for the purposes of Resistance and Immunity, which have specific D&D definitions, and not for the purpose of Damage Reduction, which is done before reisitance and immunity is applied. Damage reduction is seperate from Resistance and Immunity.

[Armored Walrus]

I don't get the logic. If something counts as magical for a purpose, there's no distinction from something that is magical for that purpose..

It's because the items that "count as" magical are then qualified by "for the purposes of overcoming resistance or immunity" but the items that "is magical" don't have that qualifier. The feat isn't resistance or immunity. I think that's the OP's point. I agree with OP's logic, by the way, and I also agree with the houserule of making the feat work against magical weapons as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

The point is that it only counts as magical for the purposes of Resistance and Immunity, which have specific D&D definitions, and not for the purpose of Damage Reduction, which is done before resistance and immunity is applied. Damage reduction is separate from Resistance and Immunity. Thanks for saying what I was thinking. Nicely put.

[Matrix_Walker]

Thanks for saying what I was thinking. Nicely put.

YW

And thank you to you, Ryuu, for pointing out this important point of rule interaction in the RAW.

[Tanarii]

The point is that it only counts as magical for the purposes of Resistance and Immunity, which have specific D&D definitions, and not for the purpose of Damage Reduction, which is done before reisitance and immunity is applied. Damage reduction is seperate from Resistance and Immunity.
Oh hey, look at that. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks very much! I had a feeling I was clearly missing something.

[EvilAnagram]

To be honest, I just let the -3 apply to magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing attacks as well. That actually makes the feat at least marginally useful after level 6 or so.
What the hells are you people fighting that's constantly dealing magical damage? Unless you dive right into the Blood War, it seems like there are always level-appropriate threats that don't deal magical damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm thinking of homebrewing a modification to HAM to read as follows:

Resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing attacks while wearing heavy armor.

At the low end, it might end up being less useful than a flat -3, because of how Resistance works. But it does keep it relevant into the higher levels. What does everyone think?

[Xihirli]

Too powerful. Basically gives me no reason to pick Barbarian over Fighter.

[Sigreid]

Perhaps allow HAM to affect magic weapons when wearing magic armor?

If you really want to break the game, let the + from magic armor add to the DR. :smallbiggrin:

[Angelalex242]

That is actually an awesome idea. The Paladin with Full Plate +3 is really cruising then with his -6 to every hit!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Too powerful. Basically gives me no reason to pick Barbarian over Fighter.How about having a higher AC unarmored than the Fighter has clanking around in full plate? I'd rather not be hit than be hit for less damage, personally. And, yanno... the whole damn class worth of features?

Let's face it, heavy armor sucks. So first, you have to make up for the fact that it is mechanically the weakest armor class, so someone might actually want to wear it.

[Tanarii]

Let's face it, heavy armor sucks. So first, you have to make up for the fact that it is mechanically the weakest armor class, so someone might actually want to wear it.
How does
- has the best AC while dumping Dex, instead of either maxing Dex or taking a Feat and moderate investment in Dex
&
- which means gets to use Str primary, for heavy weapons / GWM goodness
suck exactly?

Barbarians are in a weird place, because they're expected to use Str primary, but their AC is kinda subpar unless they go seriously MAD.

[Xihirli]

Barbarian has to max DEX, CON, and STR to get unarmored AC as good as plate and a shield while still making full use of their class features. Fighters get to pick that up using nothing but money. Making Heavy Armor as good as raging except that it’s always on instead of reliant on limited uses absolutely steps on the toes of the barbarian.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Barbarian has to max DEX, CON, and STR to get unarmored AC as good as plate and a shield while still making full use of their class features. Fighters get to pick that up using nothing but money. Making Heavy Armor as good as raging except that it’s always on instead of reliant on limited uses absolutely steps on the toes of the barbarian.

Except it isn't?

I mean, just by itself, Rage has bonus damage and Advantage on Strength checks in addition to resistance. That's without going into Bearbarian which has resistance to Yes damage (except psychic), or other rage-based abilities that Barbarians get. You are making a VERY false conflation.

[Tanarii]

Nope. He's spot on the money. It absolutely steps on Barb toes to give them something superior.

[EvilAnagram]

Nope. He's spot on the money. It absolutely steps on Barb toes to give them something superior.
Agreed. Even the DR3 on magical is pushing it.

[bid]

How about having a higher AC unarmored than the Fighter has clanking around in full plate? I'd rather not be hit than be hit for less damage, personally. And, yanno... the whole damn class worth of features?
Eeeeh?

A level 12 barbarian prolly has Str20 Dex14 Con16 and GWM. That's naked AC15.

Your full-plate fighter has AC18.


Face it, barbarian unarmored defense is a full 2 point behind wearing armor. It's just fluff for ankle-biters.

[Tanarii]

Eeeeh?

A level 12 barbarian prolly has Str20 Dex14 Con16 and GWM. That's naked AC15.That'd require something like starting Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16 and 3 ASIs. That's fairly easy for Vumans and and Mountain Dwarves. But it's still a pretty serious MAD stat investment in physical stats.

Also, he's probably rocking a breastplate for AC 16 if he wants to sneak, or half plate for AC 17 if he doesn't. But that's still 1-2 puts behind and a MAD ability score investment.

Str primary + Medium armor for physical attacker is a bit of a pain in the butt stats wise, because they want middle Dex and as much Con as they can as well. I still have a soft spot in my heart for Str Valor Bards and Str Rangers anyway. :)

[Pex]

Dumping the mental scores, a human barbarian can have 16 ST 16 DX 16 CO for an AC of 16. He can use a shield for AC 18. Using Great Weapon Master is not a requirement. Have a good AC and still soak up damage when you are hit. 1d8 + 5 damage when raging isn't bad. You can raise ST to 18 easily at 4th without worry. 8th level is your choice of ST 20 or CO 18. 12th level is the opportunity to take Toughness. If you don't have a magic weapon by this time get a new DM, so you're not hurting on offense. Agreed not the optimal damage but decent. Your job is soaking up the hits and damage. You are the meat shield. I'm not arguing this character is the most optimal, but he's competent enough and not crying someone has Heavy Armor Master.

[Wryte]

If you really want to break the game, let the + from magic armor add to the DR. :smallbiggrin:

I'd say just base the damage reduction on the character's proficiency bonus instead of a flat number. That gives it scaling with level that isn't dependent on your luck with loot.


Let's face it, heavy armor sucks. So first, you have to make up for the fact that it is mechanically the weakest armor class, so someone might actually want to wear it.

I would argue that Medium is the weakest, actually. It's a very niche role.

Light armor is for Dex builds, and lets you pretty much dump Str entirely.

Heavy is for Str builds, and lets you pretty much dump Dex entirely.

Medium occupies this weird middle space where it requires Dex to reach its full potential, but too much Dex and Light armor is just as good while being a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to acquire, and not disadvantaging stealth checks. At 20 Dex you need the Medium Armor Master feat and a set of half-plate to eek out a +1 AC edge over normal Studded Leather and drop the Stealth disadvantage. Bizarrely, the only builds that Medium naturally shines for are clerics who don't get bonus proficiencies with heavy armor, and Hexblade locks.

[Xihirli]

And if you want to build a Bugbear Ambusher and keep your DEX at 16 as a Strength Fighter
A build possible but ill-advised with point-buy.

[Crgaston]

Don’t forget Dwarven Strength Rogues!

[Davrix]

applying the -3 to all weapon damage, magical or non-magical woulnt'y really break to much and make the feat at least more appealing for late game.

Personally I would rather the feat be something like this.

Heavy Armor Master
You have spent years mastering how to move in heavy plate

- Your str score increases by 1
- You no longer have disadvantage to stealth checks while wearing heavy armor.
- If you are untrained in stealth you may add half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) to stealth checks.

[Tanarii]

Personally I would rather the feat be something like this.

Heavy Armor Master
You have spent years mastering how to move in heavy plate

- Your str score increases by 1
- You no longer have disadvantage to stealth checks while wearing heavy armor.
- If you are untrained in stealth you may add half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) to stealth checks.
IMX HA wearers almost inevitably have a Dex 8. So this turns a 20% chance of success into 50% against very weak passive perception 10 enemies. There are players (like you, obviously) that want to make their weak points into less weak points, but you guys are generally exceptions from what I've seen. So I doubt this would be more popular than the feat as written.


Dumping the mental scores, a human barbarian can have 16 ST 16 DX 16 CO for an AC of 16. Exactly. And even in AL, that level of MAD physical focus is rare for Barbarians. Dump Int? Almost inevitable. Dump all three scores? Requires point buy, and a certain specific optimization mindset generally only found on forums.

I find the best assumption for baseline comparisons is generally standard array, because it's also (roughly) what happens on the average when rolling. Not using the 15/15/15/8/8/8 of extreme point buy.

[Angelalex242]

Why do plate armor wearers care about stealth?

We don't. We're there to be shiny. Let the sneaky types sneak, it's not our job.

I'd rather see that -3 get bigger over time.

Perhaps even Your proficiency bonus+any magical bonuses of your armor.

[Davrix]

IMX HA wearers almost inevitably have a Dex 8. So this turns a 20% chance of success into 50% against very weak passive perception 10 enemies. There are players (like you, obviously) that want to make their weak points into less weak points, but you guys are generally exceptions from what I've seen. So I doubt this would be more popular than the feat as written.

Exactly. And even in AL, that level of MAD physical focus is rare for Barbarians. Dump Int? Almost inevitable. Dump all three scores? Requires point buy, and a certain specific optimization mindset generally only found on forums.

I find the best assumption for baseline comparisons is generally standard array, because it's also (roughly) what happens on the average when rolling. Not using the 15/15/15/8/8/8 of extreme point buy.

I don't really see whats wrong with a feat that negates a weakness by some margin. I mean look at Sharpshooter and what that does, or Alert and also Warcaster... Shield Master. There are lots of feats designed around augmenting a character to lesson a downside so I don't really see why this is a bad thing. Players want to feel empowered (kind of the point of the game most times) But if it feels to good you could always take out the 3rd benefit and give the +1 str and you no longer have disadvantage on stealth checks in heavy armor.


Why do plate armor wearers care about stealth?

We don't. We're there to be shiny. Let the sneaky types sneak, it's not our job.

I'd rather see that -3 get bigger over time.

Perhaps even Your proficiency bonus+any magical bonuses of your armor.

I just kind of have a hard time understanding the concept behind the title vs the effect. Armor works because ARMOR. How good you are in it should effect how you move or react not reduce the damage. The -3 damage makes much more sense to me if say you had the plate made out from say adamantite. That to me at least feels like something that should reduce the damage of a hit.

[MaxWilson]

I don't really see whats wrong with a feat that negates a weakness by some margin. I mean look at Sharpshooter and what that does, or Alert and also Warcaster... Shield Master. There are lots of feats designed around augmenting a character to lesson a downside so I don't really see why this is a bad thing. Players want to feel empowered (kind of the point of the game most times) But if it feels to good you could always take out the 3rd benefit and give the +1 str and you no longer have disadvantage on stealth checks in heavy armor.

Sounds fine as an option, as long as you call it something that will avoid confusion with Heavy Armor Master from the PHB. But really the cheapest way to get stealth in heavy armor is to be a wood elf and take the racial feat that lets you cast Pass Without Trace. Or just get a buddy who's a 3rd+ level Shadow Monk, so the whole party can sneak everywhere, all the time, basically for free. (Pause for a short rest every few hours to regain ki.)

It's nice not to be forced to fight.

[Angelalex242]

I don't really see whats wrong with a feat that negates a weakness by some margin. I mean look at Sharpshooter and what that does, or Alert and also Warcaster... Shield Master. There are lots of feats designed around augmenting a character to lesson a downside so I don't really see why this is a bad thing. Players want to feel empowered (kind of the point of the game most times) But if it feels to good you could always take out the 3rd benefit and give the +1 str and you no longer have disadvantage on stealth checks in heavy armor.



I just kind of have a hard time understanding the concept behind the title vs the effect. Armor works because ARMOR. How good you are in it should effect how you move or react not reduce the damage. The -3 damage makes much more sense to me if say you had the plate made out from say adamantite. That to me at least feels like something that should reduce the damage of a hit.

It's a tank feat. It's there to help you take hits with a smile. Don't think too hard about it.

[Sigreid]

In the early days of 5e play test one of the fighting styles gave disadvantage to attackers when you were armored. It would be an amazing feat if it did that.

Edit: It would also be a fine way to portray someone who gets the most out of the armor.

[Ryuu Hayato]

YW

And thank you to you, Ryuu, for pointing out this important point of rule interaction in the RAW.

Thank you man, I appreciate it!

[mephnick]

Barbarians are in a weird place, because they're expected to use Str primary, but their AC is kinda subpar unless they go seriously MAD.

When you're Reckless Attacking all the time who even cares about AC? Wimps, that's who. Just load up on HP and expect to get hit.

[Sigreid]

someone had commented earlier that heavy armor isn't as good as other options. If you DM allows you to get into the extreme edge case of having a 30 in dex and con as a barbarian you can get up to a 35 with a +3 shield. +3 Fullplate and +3 shield with Armored fighting style will only get you to 27. It's a ridiculous edge case that is unlikely to ever come about, but it is there.

[Tanarii]

When you're Reckless Attacking all the time who even cares about AC? Wimps, that's who. Just load up on HP and expect to get hit.
And Raging as often as possible.

But that's the point. And why giving an AC 20 Fighter, who isn't constantly granting his enemies advantage on their attacks, always on resistance for a half-feat is just a terrible idea.

[MaxWilson]

Medium occupies this weird middle space where it requires Dex to reach its full potential, but too much Dex and Light armor is just as good while being a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to acquire, and not disadvantaging stealth checks. At 20 Dex you need the Medium Armor Master feat and a set of half-plate to eek out a +1 AC edge over normal Studded Leather and drop the Stealth disadvantage. Bizarrely, the only builds that Medium naturally shines for are clerics who don't get bonus proficiencies with heavy armor, and Hexblade locks.

And druids who manage to forge animal out of fantastic animal materials, and strength-based rangers, and valor bards.