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kulosle
2018-03-10, 01:09 AM
Okay a legit question. I know it's full spell casting so it's technically better then straight sorcerer. Well I guess they have a familiar. But I mean can we make casting through candles good? My party uses pathfinder crafting rules so no exp cost. So how would you build this class?

Falontani
2018-03-10, 01:42 AM
Link to source? I remember it exists but forgot from where

Fizban
2018-03-10, 01:58 AM
Candle Caster is from Tome and Blood (3.0). It's whole thing is scribing candles, which are scrolls but slower, getting metamagic feats that can only be used on scribed candles, as well as eventually negating the slow part.

The Candle Caster has a few things that are massive if used correctly: the slowness of the candles initially is something you'd actually have to pay for normally (Delay Spell is quite expensive). Later they can make candles with two spells that fire in sequence (one round after the first), and finally candles with two spells that fire simultaneously. All those quicken combos people think are amazing? Candle Caster can make scrolls of those combos without paying the cost for Quicken Spell.

That's about it, but if that's something you can make use of, it's about the only way to get it.

Falontani
2018-03-10, 02:11 AM
If your dm is willing to allow artificer to enter (being an infusion user instead of a spellcaster which is really stupid and limiting) then this would be ripe for abuse

Blackhawk748
2018-03-10, 02:20 AM
Okay a legit question. I know it's full spell casting so it's technically better then straight sorcerer. Well I guess they have a familiar. But I mean can we make casting through candles good? My party uses pathfinder crafting rules so no exp cost. So how would you build this class?

I'd say its already decent. I mean, its not an Incantatrix, but very little is. Its a solid full caster with a quirk, kinda like the Shadow Adept or Escalation Mage, though id say that both are (strictly speaking) better than Candle Caster, though Candle Caster has its good mechanical points beyond just being neat conceptually.

PrismCat21
2018-03-10, 02:23 AM
Wasn't there a candle casting prestige class in Forgotten Realms as well?
Or is just the same class also printed in one of their books?

Fizban
2018-03-10, 02:28 AM
I'd actually say that Candle Caster is one of the very few full casting classes that actually deserves it. It gives a significant number of bonus feats, but they're all locked to a particular use with inherent drawbacks, and indeed all the class features have the same inherent drawback. Unlike most full casting PrCs that give bonus feats and unique abilities and probably remove drawbacks from stuff at the same time.

Blackhawk748
2018-03-10, 02:36 AM
I'd actually say that Candle Caster is one of the very few full casting classes that actually deserves it. It gives a significant number of bonus feats, but they're all locked to a particular use with inherent drawbacks, and indeed all the class features have the same inherent drawback. Unlike most full casting PrCs that give bonus feats and unique abilities and probably remove drawbacks from stuff at the same time.

I think we can say, however, that the prereq of Great Fortitude is pretty stupid and is safely dropped. I mean, its behind the 3rd level spell wall anyway.

Fizban
2018-03-10, 04:00 AM
Eh, I also don't really approve of zero prerequisite classes (that's zero feats, skills hardly count). Great Fortitude is silly, but what else to substitute? Either something they already wanted so it's not a cost (see: every metamagic feat requirement), or something even sillier or more useless (see: Cooperative Spell). The most appropriate would be Scribe Scroll, which directly overlaps with the whole point of the class. As arbitrary feat taxes go, Great Fortitude is pretty useful. Beats Endurance anyway.

Edit: I swear I've had this conversation before o.O

Blackhawk748
2018-03-10, 09:01 AM
Eh, I also don't really approve of zero prerequisite classes (that's zero feats, skills hardly count). Great Fortitude is silly, but what else to substitute? Either something they already wanted so it's not a cost (see: every metamagic feat requirement), or something even sillier or more useless (see: Cooperative Spell). The most appropriate would be Scribe Scroll, which directly overlaps with the whole point of the class. As arbitrary feat taxes go, Great Fortitude is pretty useful. Beats Endurance anyway.

Edit: I swear I've had this conversation before o.O

The way I see it is, Candle Casting is just a small side step from normal casting, so it should be easy to enter. Thus no feat pre reqs (though maybe add a Know Arcana skill pre req)

That or the feat needs to actually be relevant to the class you're joining, and in that case something like a Metamagic feat or Spell focus would make sense

Oracle71
2018-03-10, 09:23 AM
For the candle caster by itself, since you get a virtual scribe scroll feat, if you take the arcane disciple feat for the spell domain, you can borrow a spellbook and craft a bunch of scrolls of spells you don't have on your spell list, which is very valuable for a sorcerer. But since candle caster gives you a virtual brew potion feat, you can then also take the master alchemist PRC, which allows you to craft your "potions," or unfettered candles, of spells up to 9th level, and you can craft them at a accelerated rate.

kulosle
2018-03-10, 02:22 PM
Wait does that actually work? You only kind of have the brew potion feat. Does it qualify you for prerequisites?

Kelb_Panthera
2018-03-10, 04:06 PM
Wait does that actually work? You only kind of have the brew potion feat. Does it qualify you for prerequisites?

Looks like it should. Both features say they are effectively the crafting feats but with extra limitations.


Can I get somebody to double-check my logic on something?

So the scribe candle feature says that a candle can't be extinguished by someone other than the caster but can be suppressed as any other magic item. It also says the candle burns for however long the spell's duration is and that the duration gets cut short if the candle is extinguished.

Here's the question; are the candle and the spell effect it produces one entity or at least interdependent? If they are, this means that buff spells applied through spell candles aren't lost but merely suppressed if targeted by dispel magic. That seems rather worth noting if I have the right of it.

Fizban
2018-03-11, 02:46 AM
Personally I'd say that Master Alchemist clearly cares a lot about potions being potions and not something else, so it wouldn't work. Master Alchemist also requires Magical Artisan (Potions), not Magical Artisan (Unfettered Candles). Qualifying for Loremaster or something else that wants tons of item creation and/or metamagic feats, sure.

kulosle
2018-03-11, 01:43 PM
Would taking master artisan (potion) help with making a unfettered candle?

Silva Stormrage
2018-03-11, 05:27 PM
I am curious if you can light the candles in a creative way. Make the candles resistant to flame for example and then cast fireball, would that light multiple candles in a single round?

That could be useful if you wanted to go absolutely nova.

ben-zayb
2018-03-11, 05:46 PM
Wu Jen has the Fiery Eyes spell, which ignites combustible materials within "one spot". (Wasn't there a Wu Jen Candle Castee thread just recently?)

Here's a way to TO a candle caster. Granted, SCM and Incantatrix also does a lot of lifting, but a pure Candle Caster is still scary with Fiery Eyes.


Minister Chandler
Whisper Gnome, Wu Jen 5 / Candle Caster 2 / Shadowcraft Mage 3 / Candle Caster +5 / Shadowcraft Mage +2 / Candle Caster+3

Bring forth shadows using candles. Pretty darn simple, isn't it?

Feats
1 Heighten (B), Great Fortitude, Earth Sense, Earth Spell
3 Spell Focus (Illusion)
6 Spell Rehearsal
9 Residual Magic
12 Sanctum Spell
15 Echoing Spell
18 Repeat Spell
Magical Locations Chaos-Shuffle (Optional): Arcane Thesis (Silent Image), Proteus

Background:
1. A candle caster can store a spell in a candle, similarly crafted like, and functioning as, a spell in a (spell-)scroll. A candle is activated by lighting it, which is then assumed to be best done by taking a standard action to use tindertwig. Of course, some optimizers don't eat that crap suggestion up. Also, the spell effect is delayed by 1 round until Candle Caster 7.

2. Drawing material components (like a candle, for Summon Monster spells) and dropping items to an adjacent square are both free actions. One of the assumptions here is that either you don't need to cast the spell you are drawing components for, or that you will cast the Summon Monster spell much later. Another assumption is that your Craft(Candlemaking) skill enables you to craft miniscule candles that always lands upright (*blah* center of gravity *blah*).


You are a Wu Jen with possible higher spell save DCs. You also have a massive stock of Fire Shuriken stashed somewhere, I suppose.
By pre-casting Fiery Eyes (as either a last-minute prep, a rod-quickened spell, or done in the surprise/1st round), you can ignite all combustibles in one spot (assumed to apply to a 5ft-square area). Candles' combustible parts are the wicks, which means you can ignite all candlewicks in said area and activate #X amount of spells using only a full-round action. The spells set off a round after, though. If any of these spells are identical, you get a stacking DC/SR-penetration bonus due to Spell Rehearsal. If you also pre-cast spell <A> a round before using this trick, you get to use your default CL and apply one metamagic (like Heighten) from the pre-cast spell to any spell <A>s cast using the candles, courtesy of Residual Magic.

You are also a shadowcraft mage with Spell Rehearsal and Residual Magic, which means you get to spam Silent Images with increasing DC and free Heighten once every 2 rounds. Your maximum capacity is CL 14 8th-Heightened Silent Image that mimics a 5th level Sor/Wiz Evocation/Conjuration(Creation/Summoning) spell. Combining this with Candle Caster and Spell Rehearsal will lead to ridiculous DC/SR-penetration increase.
For starters, you now have Echoing Spell, which means effectively having ALL your spells prepared (at a lower CL) because of it due to having no time limit. If Wizard is "Batman: The Class", this feat is practically "Batman: The Metamagic Feat". All your spells 5th-level or lower are now available to be cast at a -4 CL as if you have them prepared. Everytime you recast such spells, they will Echo (aka can be recast again) with another -4 CL penalty available 1 hour thereafter, until you no longer have enough CL (but isn't specifically defined anyway).

With Earth Spell, and optionally by staying at your sanctum/church*, you can cast a [CL 22 8th-Heightened (Sanctum) Silent Image that mimicked any 8th(9th) level Sor/Wiz Evocation/Creation/Summoning spell]. Now, you have two options:

A. If combat practically ended in the round where you fired-off that spell, then congratulate your party and cast an Echoing Silent Image. Residual Magic turns this into the above bracketed line, minus the parentheses and with the normal Echoing CL decrease, and will start of its Echoing Spell chain. Of course, every Echoing Silent Image spell you cast in conjunction with any casting from the first Echoing Heightened Silent Image chain will also start off its own Echoing Heightened Silent Image chain via Residual Magic.

B. If combat didn't end on the 1st/2nd round with your spell], you can "Nova" next round by igniting a crapton of cheap <CL1 (Sanctum) Silent Image> Candles that now work as the above bracketed line, adjusted depending on if you imbued Sanctum Spell on your candles. You then also get a crapton of DC and SR-penetration increase for these; even assuming a paltry amount of 10 candles, will give the last candle a +10 bonus. If you want more expensive ammunitions that have higher bigger pay-offs, a CL1(or 7) Echoing Silent Image candle comboed as above will set-off its own CL 22 8th-Heightened (Sanctum) Silent Image echoing spell chain.

You can also either blow some of your WBL to "Nova" with any other spell candles, or pre-cast other heightened lower-level spells and let Residual Magic do its work. Minor benefits include making "specialty candles" (notably Silent Image ones) applied with Enlarge/Empower, and making Unfettered Candles (effectively a Potion) used by others by specific methods of lighting via Tindertwig, Flint & Tinder, or Magnifying Glass.

One more trick for this level: You can cast/spam Shalintha's Delicate Disk (LEoF) (via Shadow Illusion, possibly combined with Echoing Spell chains), which makes a disk where you can store any <5th-level spell of yours. Stock all of those disks with all sort of spells of yours, then use the Violent Thrust option of your Telekinesis to throw up to 15 disks at your opponent (debuff/poisons/SoD), ally(buff), or area of your choice, for another multiple-spell-per-turn trick. Yo dawg, interestingly, you can store a telekinesis spell in a Disk, so in reality, you aren't really limited to throwing 15 disks at a time. Of course, this more of a native Shadowcraft Mage trick, so it's a bit unthematic for your candle caster, unless you fluff those disks as Hosts or something.


* You are a candle caster. Where exactly do you think you will likely come from?
The access to higher spell level will get you the ability to "Nova" with those spells too, and allows a higher heightened spell cap for those who abuse Heighten/Earth spell (likely with Residual Magic).

You also get Repeat Spell, which increases your "Nova" when used as Repeat spell candles (notably Silent Image ones). Residual Heighten + #X Repeat spell candles will give #X Repeat Heightened spells. On the next round, your recast (via normal candle Repeat) #X Heightened-Spells will combine with the Residual Repeat, so that you effectively cast #X Repeat-Heightened spells. On the next round, your recast another (via the residual Repeat) #X Heightened Spells. You now effectiely did your "Nova" thrice. Alternatively, instead of doing a nova, you may just use prepared Repeat spells to recycle steps 3 to step 1. This chain also likely ends with an Echoing Spell chain, appended at the last residual Heighten.

Step 1: !H + X-R = X-RH
Step 2 !R + X-H = X-RH
Step 3 !H + X-E = X-RH

Legend: !-Residual, H-Heighten, R-Repeat, X-Spell of Choice

Kelb_Panthera
2018-03-11, 05:48 PM
Personally I'd say that Master Alchemist clearly cares a lot about potions being potions and not something else, so it wouldn't work. Master Alchemist also requires Magical Artisan (Potions), not Magical Artisan (Unfettered Candles). Qualifying for Loremaster or something else that wants tons of item creation and/or metamagic feats, sure.

There's nothing in the mechanics for master alchemist that seems to me to care about the "potions" being created being any kind of liquid. You might have a point for alchemist savant but not master alchemist. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't use any of the alternate potion suggestions in CAr so I don't see why spell candles should be barred.


Would taking master artisan (potion) help with making a unfettered candle?

Again, unfettered candle effectively says, "this is brew potion but with these minor tweaks." RAW, treating it as brew potion for anything that asks should be fine unless the thing is dependent on the potion actually being a liquid.

Blackhawk748
2018-03-11, 06:19 PM
Wu Jen has the Fiery Eyes spell, which ignites combustible materials within "one spot". (Wasn't there a Wu Jen Candle Castee thread just recently?)

Here's a way to TO a candle caster. Granted, SCM and Incantatrix also does a lot of lifting, but a pure Candle Caster is still scary with Fiery Eyes.

Yes there is, mine. Also it specifically stated that it takes a standard action to ignite the candle, so no multi lights. However you can light them from range so Fiery Eyes would be great for setting up a sort of trap.

Could we use Fire Trap to ignite candles?

Silva Stormrage
2018-03-11, 07:00 PM
Yes there is, mine. Also it specifically stated that it takes a standard action to ignite the candle, so no multi lights. However you can light them from range so Fiery Eyes would be great for setting up a sort of trap.

Could we use Fire Trap to ignite candles?

It doesn't actually say it takes a standard action. It says explicitly there are other ways to light the candle. Just that the "best" way to do so is via tindertwigs which take a standard action to create a non magical fire.

I don't think it's realistic to claim that that is the ONLY way to light them.

Blackhawk748
2018-03-11, 07:06 PM
It doesn't actually say it takes a standard action. It says explicitly there are other ways to light the candle. Just that the "best" way to do so is via tindertwigs which take a standard action to create a non magical fire.

I don't think it's realistic to claim that that is the ONLY way to light them.

I was going off of memory so I'll trust you on that. So ya, Fireball should work there.

Nobody ever accused RAW of being realistic.

ben-zayb
2018-03-11, 07:30 PM
I was going off of memory so I'll trust you on that. So ya, Fireball should work there.

Nobody ever accused RAW of being realistic.

Problem with Fireball is twofold:
1. You would destroy the candles in the process of lighting them up.
2. The ideal scenario is that you draw and drop (free actions) from your person to an adjacent square all relevant candles so that you can set them ablaze all at the same time and trigger multiple spells; that said, properly aiming fireball would be difficult considering your party positioning

daremetoidareyo
2018-03-11, 09:41 PM
I am curious if you can light the candles in a creative way. Make the candles resistant to flame for example and then cast fireball, would that light multiple candles in a single round?

That could be useful if you wanted to go absolutely nova.

tome of battle to the rescue. There is a first level desert burning sands maneuver that summons a fire elemental adjacent to your enemy as a swift action. Toss three or four candles at him instead of your opponent...

You can pick that up with martial study at any level.

kulosle
2018-03-12, 08:45 AM
That is ridiculous and I love it. also burning hands or scorching ray would work and are easier to aim then a sphere.

RaiKirah
2018-03-12, 01:16 PM
If you're willing to lose caster levels you could pick up Master Thrower and Palm Throw two candles per attack. Full attack start with alchemist fire and they should light on impact.

Lose more levels for Drunken Master and they can do lots of damage too!

Falontani
2018-03-12, 01:20 PM
If you're willing to lose caster levels you could pick up Master Thrower and Palm Throw two candles per attack. Full attack start with alchemist fire and they should light on impact.

Lose more levels for Drunken Master and they can do lots of damage too!

throw in 5 levels of abjurant champion so our CL = our BAB

kulosle
2018-03-12, 03:14 PM
So if i understand correctly if you have enough time and gold or enough cost reductions in your character build then you can be a wizard that sometimes has some nova damage. Otherwise it's just a full caster with almost no class abilities.

What double casting candles might be able to pus this over?

Blackhawk748
2018-03-12, 03:21 PM
So if i understand correctly if you have enough time and gold or enough cost reductions in your character build then you can be a wizard that sometimes has some nova damage. Otherwise it's just a full caster with almost no class abilities.

What double casting candles might be able to pus this over?

You do have class abilities, specifically the double casting of candles. Otherwise its just situational metamagic, which is fine.

As for double casting things: Glitterdust+Obscuring Mist, any 2 AoE spells, a Fort Debuff+Finger of Death

Kelb_Panthera
2018-03-12, 04:28 PM
Said this once already but I feel like it may have been missed since I edited it into a post a while after I made it.


Can I get somebody to double-check my logic on something?

So the scribe candle feature says that a candle can't be extinguished by someone other than the caster but can be suppressed as any other magic item. It also says the candle burns for however long the spell's duration is and that the duration gets cut short if the candle is extinguished.

Here's the question; are the candle and the spell effect it produces one entity or at least interdependent? If they are, this means that buff spells applied through spell candles aren't lost but merely suppressed if targeted by dispel magic. That seems rather worth noting if I have the right of it.

kulosle
2018-03-12, 06:29 PM
I think you are right. The buffs act like magic items.