Polymorph and wall of force

[Whit]

What happens if you cast polymorph on an enemy who fails turned into a snail then next round you create a wall of force the size of a basketball dome on the snail which then turns back into its human or larger size in the dome

[Chugger]

Good question. Not sure if you can make a wall of force that small.

But you could polymorph someone into a snail and drop into into a deep narrow crack in hard rock, one the snail barely fits in - turn it back into a human - would it pop out? Would it die? I doubt there is a RAW on this - no idea if there is a RAI or RAI-equivalent.

I'd be hard-pressed to know how to rule. I like to reward creativity. Don't know if I like polymorph being an "insta-death-spell" though. Could compromise - the human pops out of the rock but is badly hurt in the process.

[Blood of Gaea]

Well, there's nothing RAW to give you an easy answer. But if you take a look at the Enlarge/Reduce spell, it has this:


This growth increases its size by one category – from Medium to Large, for example. If there isn’t enough room for the target to double its size, the creature or object attains the maximum possible size in the space available.

So I would probably rule that the creature stays small enough to fit into the space until more room is made.

[Dr. Cliché]

Wouldn't the lack of that rule on the Polymorph spell strongly imply that it doesn't have that safeguard?


Anyway, my answer would be 'you'd get a mess'.

Remember, kids, shapeshifting is dangerous. :smallwink:

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

What happens if you cast polymorph on an enemy who fails turned into a snail then next round you create a wall of force the size of a basketball dome on the snail which then turns back into its human or larger size in the dome

I would rule it as displacement damage essentially, I would use the same rule as the etherealness spell, the number of feet they have to move to have a spot that's safe times two.

[Blood of Gaea]

Wouldn't the lack of that rule on the Polymorph spell strongly imply that it doesn't have that safeguard?


Anyway, my answer would be 'you'd get a mess'.

Remember, kids, shapeshifting is dangerous. :smallwink:
I'd rather give it a safeguard than give Polymorph add a no-save death effect to it.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'd rather give it a safeguard than give Polymorph add a no-save death effect to it.

Each to their own.

Personally, I'm not a fan of 'Oh, you shapeshifted into a tiny creature, got stuck somewhere far too small for your regular form, and now you have to change back. It's fine, though, because Polymorph (and Wild Shape and every other transformation spell/ability) apparently has a secret Dimension Door effect built into it that isn't mentioned in the actual text but means you basically get a slap on the risk and then walk away completely fine.'

And if they're using Polymorph on enemies, then having them escape in the above manner just feels like punishing player creativity with DM fiat.

However, I'm well aware that I'm in the minority here. It seems everyone else wants 'safe' magic. :smalltongue:

[bc56]

My players have been trying to convince me that this would be a valid way to kill the tarrasque. I wouldn't personally allow it, but some DMs might.

[MaxWilson]

I'd rather give it a safeguard than give Polymorph add a no-save death effect to it.

Polymorph already has a no-save death effect on it: drowning. You turn your enemy into a kitten and then drown it. A drowned creature cannot regain HP until and unless it can breath. Thus, when it hits 0 HP because of drowning, it turns back into whatever it was before and (unless it can breath underwater) is still at 0 HP.

A slightly more convoluted combo with the same effect can be used if the DM rules that turning back into your normal self lets you re-start the drowning rounds, and that regaining your previous HP does not count as regaining HP. In this case you turn the creature into a kitten, cast Sleep on it, and THEN drown it. (Put it underwater and then stop concentrating on Polymorph.)

In short, getting Polymorphed is Bad News against a prepared opponent. Try not to fail your save against it.

RE: OP, it's the DM's call whether the creature reverts to its normal shape inside the tiny Wall of Force or around it. (It depends on how Polymorph works and whether the extra mass phases back into existence when the spell ends, or if the creature gradually grows back into its old shape.) It wouldn't be unreasonable to improvise a large amount of force damage (based on the size of the sphere) in the latter case to represent Wall of Force basically scooping out a section of its guts. Say, 2d12 for a marble-sized sphere, 10d10 for a basketball-sized sphere, 20d20 for a sphere 5' in diameter. Alternately, a DM could rule that a creature whose newly-materializing body would be interdicted by the Wall of Force gets shunted outside the Wall of Force in the same way as if the Wall of Force had been newly-cast--so a creature that can't fit inside the sphere automatically materializes outside of it. Or perhaps the Wall of Force is even disrupted by the newly-materialzing creature.

All of this depends on how exactly the Wall of Force works and why it cannot normally materialize inside of a living creature. 5E's rules don't say why, so it's on the DM to make up something suitable.

[Tiadoppler]

Polymorph already has a no-save death effect on it: drowning. You turn your enemy into a kitten and then drown it. A drowned creature cannot regain HP until and unless it can breath. Thus, when it hits 0 HP because of drowning, it turns back into whatever it was before and (unless it can breath underwater) is still at 0 HP.

Can you instead polymorph an enemy into a small goldfish or other creature which requires water to breath? You may not have ready access to a pool of water for feline waterboarding purposes. The only flaw in this that I see is that there isn't any specific keyword "Airbreathing" that acts as an alternative to Waterbreathing, so all creatures, including fish, may be able to breath air through their gills by default.

Also, polymorphing your enemy into a cat of any kind has the potential of dooming any nearby commoners to a quick and scratchy death.

[Ganymede]

What happens if you cast polymorph on an enemy who fails turned into a snail then next round you create a wall of force the size of a basketball dome on the snail which then turns back into its human or larger size in the dome

The rules don't actually say what happens, but I play it by shunting the polymorphed target to the nearest place that can occupy its form.


Wouldn't the lack of that rule on the Polymorph spell strongly imply that it doesn't have that safeguard?

Not really. 5e is written in a very loose, free wheeling fashion and this is more likely an example of a lack of consistency than it is a purposeful negative implication.

[MaxWilson]

Can you instead polymorph an enemy into a small goldfish or other creature which requires water to breath? You may not have ready access to a pool of water for feline waterboarding purposes. The only flaw in this that I see is that there isn't any specific keyword "Airbreathing" that acts as an alternative to Waterbreathing, so all creatures, including fish, may be able to breath air through their gills by default.

The bigger flaw is that when the creature reaches 0 HP in fish form, it turns back into something that can breathe in the current environment, so it's legal to regain HP, including all the HP it had originally.

Turning into a kitten is just to render it mostly-helpless while you transport it.

[Xihirli]

You can polymorph them into a fish or seahorse, toss them in a bag of holding, and let them suffocate to 0 hp before they return to their original form, then suffocate again.
But you might be evil if you do that.

[Davrix]

Look for the spells that cause you to take damage while inside something when you appear. Just use those to offer how much damage is done when they burst out of the crack.

Besides if you really want to be silly you turn the thing into a snail then toss it into your bag of holding.

[Blacky the Blackball]

So I would probably rule that the creature stays small enough to fit into the space until more room is made.

My group have agreed that as our "official interpretation" of how things happen in general...

If any magic effect would change your shape to one that can't fit in your current location then:
1) If the change of shape is due to the magic effect starting, the magic simply fails.
2) If the change of shape is due to the magic effect ending, the magic effect doesn't end until there is room for it to end.

This covers all sorts of polymorph, shapeshifting, wild-shaping, lycanthropy, and any other magical effects that change a character's shape or size. It's simple, consistent, and known to be one of the "laws of magic" in character by people making suitable Arcana checks.

[Cespenar]

Autokilling through a level 4 polymorph spell lies in the same path as casting the light cantrip on an enemy's "retina" to permanently blind them or whatever.

I'd either:

-Shunt the creature to the nearest opening,
-Or, as many have suggested, persist the spell until it's physically possible to grow back.

[DigoDragon]

However, I'm well aware that I'm in the minority here. It seems everyone else wants 'safe' magic. :smalltongue:

I see it less as 'safe magic' and more as preventing a spell's escalation into rocket tagging. :smallbiggrin:

[sir_argo]

I'm surprised nobody has suggested that instead of insta-death, making the creature start taking damage each turn until it can free itself. i.e. the creature is growing, but the growth stops when it fills the current volume and starts taking damage until the growth can continue. Now, the creature is most likely still going to die, but at least we now have some other options. Since you only filled the available space, you might have the ability to pry yourself out. You were a snail, tossed into a crevasse, and now you're turning back into a human. But you only grow to about size S (20lbs) before you can't grow any more. You start taking damage, say 2d6 each turn, and now you might be able to do an athletics check or something to pry yourself out of the crevasse and then finish reverting to a human.

It's just a thought.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm surprised nobody has suggested that instead of insta-death, making the creature start taking damage each turn until it can free itself. i.e. the creature is growing, but the growth stops when it fills the current volume and starts taking damage until the growth can continue. Now, the creature is most likely still going to die, but at least we now have some other options. Since you only filled the available space, you might have the ability to pry yourself out. You were a snail, tossed into a crevasse, and now you're turning back into a human. But you only grow to about size S (20lbs) before you can't grow any more. You start taking damage, say 2d6 each turn, and now you might be able to do an athletics check or something to pry yourself out of the crevasse and then finish reverting to a human.

It's just a thought.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea.

I'd up the damage considerably, though.

[MaxWilson]

My group have agreed that as our "official interpretation" of how things happen in general...

If any magic effect would change your shape to one that can't fit in your current location then:
1) If the change of shape is due to the magic effect starting, the magic simply fails.
2) If the change of shape is due to the magic effect ending, the magic effect doesn't end until there is room for it to end.

This covers all sorts of polymorph, shapeshifting, wild-shaping, lycanthropy, and any other magical effects that change a character's shape or size. It's simple, consistent, and known to be one of the "laws of magic" in character by people making suitable Arcana checks.

This is cool and allows you to make things like frangible plaster purple-worm bombs which shatter when thrown, releasing an earthworm which instantly grows into a starving purple worm.

[jjadned]

My group have agreed that as our "official interpretation" of how things happen in general...

If any magic effect would change your shape to one that can't fit in your current location then:
1) If the change of shape is due to the magic effect starting, the magic simply fails.
2) If the change of shape is due to the magic effect ending, the magic effect doesn't end until there is room for it to end.

This covers all sorts of polymorph, shapeshifting, wild-shaping, lycanthropy, and any other magical effects that change a character's shape or size. It's simple, consistent, and known to be one of the "laws of magic" in character by people making suitable Arcana checks.

Step 1: polymorph a tarrasque into a snail.
Step 2: put the snail in a glass ball
Step 3: throw the ball when needed
Step 4:???
Step 5: Profit?


This is cool and allows you to make things like frangible plaster purple-worm bombs which shatter when thrown, releasing an earthworm which instantly grows into a starving purple worm.

Edit: Ninja'd

[DigoDragon]

It's just a thought.

Decent idea for escapable situations, but if you're in a container made of Force then it'll be a slow, painful death.

Egads, this sounds like an efficient torture device for a BBEG. :o

[AHF]

I would rule it as displacement damage essentially, I would use the same rule as the etherealness spell, the number of feet they have to move to have a spot that's safe times two.

This sounds pretty reasonable - avoids a super-cheap kill but has consequences.