Can archfiends enter Sigil?

[Falcon X]

Alright lore people. We all know that full deities are absolutely banned from the city of Sigil, though perhaps the Lady of Pain would occasionally let in a demigod (per Die Vecna Die).
How are archfiends treated? I don't know of any hanging out in Sigil. Are they in any way banned, or do they just not care to go there?

Context: I'm thinking about reconstructing Die Vecna Die as the ascension of Asmodeus, with Asmodeus and Azuth playing out somewhat modified replacements of Vecna and Iuz.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm of the impression that Asmodeus, at least, can't actually leave Baator for something to do with how he got his position as ruler thereof. I'm not 100% certain one way or the other about the rest.

[BWR]

They are on the no-no list.
And don't take DVD as a good source for what is possible since it directly ignored several key concepts about Sigil.

[AlanBruce]

My personal take is that Sigil bans entrance not only to gods, but also powers.

Under that category, I would classify Archdevils, Demon Lords and Celestial Paragons as beings of considerable clout and power so as to equate them to gods.

I believe BoED states that the Hebdomad, Talisid’s Companions and the Court of Stars oversee certain planes and although deities have domains in said realities, these guys have been around for far longer than the gods themselves.

We could reason the same to happen in the Lower Planes. As such, we are talking about beings that may be just as- snd in the case of the Hebdomad Leader- more powerful than the gods themselves.

And if such is the case, the Lady of Pain would forbid their access too.

[Mechalich]

3e gave most of these exemplar paragon entities 'cults' or some other source of worship, which functionally makes them deities even if you don't actually give them divine rank. Pretty much all these entities would qualify for Divine Rank 0 at the very least, and the Lady would bar anything with a Divine Rank from Sigil. This prohibition presumably extends even to things like dragon quasi-deities who acquire ten levels in Dragon Ascendant.

[Jowgen]

The essence of an archfiend (and I assume by extension archcelestials) is deeply bonded to their layer. They have a measure of control over the layer, and in turn the layer protects them from things like unfriendly deities. We actually get some mechanics on all this at the ending of savage tide.

So either, that layer bond would ping the no-powers rule at authentication, or they would loose all access to their layer-granted mojo upon entry, making them super vulnerable and potentially even leaving their throne up for grabs. It's conceivable that perhaps an arch-outsider might be allowed entry to Sigil, it is almost invariably a terrible idea for them to go there.

Except Asmodeus. He is locked in his little pit for as long as he's bleeding Pit Fiends.

[RoboEmperor]

The demon princes all have at-will astral projection so I don't see why not.

In anycase, their aspects for sure can enter the material plane.

[Karmea]

No.

"'Course, just because the Lady of Pain's blocked the doors doesn't mean the fiends quit trying to get in. She's got to remain strong to keep them out, and if they can weaken her, the seals will fall - and all Pandemonium will break loose. Maybe the fiend lords can't enter Sigil, but their agents, proxies, and sympathizers are there." - From the box set.

[Falcon X]

Thank you everyone. Those are great answers.
A few questions and comments to seek clarity:


No.

"'Course, just because the Lady of Pain's blocked the doors doesn't mean the fiends quit trying to get in. She's got to remain strong to keep them out, and if they can weaken her, the seals will fall - and all Pandemonium will break loose. Maybe the fiend lords can't enter Sigil, but their agents, proxies, and sympathizers are there." - From the box set.
Quotes are my best friend. Thank you very much.
I'll take your word for it, but if you have a book and page number, it would help for context.


They are on the no-no list.
And don't take DVD as a good source for what is possible since it directly ignored several key concepts about Sigil.
People say that, but I'm interested to know what those things are. My understanding is that Vecna is special because he didn't break the rules, he just found ways to subvert them. Any specifics on this?


The essence of an archfiend (and I assume by extension archcelestials) is deeply bonded to their layer. They have a measure of control over the layer, and in turn the layer protects them from things like unfriendly deities. We actually get some mechanics on all this at the ending of savage tide.

So either, that layer bond would ping the no-powers rule at authentication, or they would loose all access to their layer-granted mojo upon entry, making them super vulnerable and potentially even leaving their throne up for grabs. It's conceivable that perhaps an arch-outsider might be allowed entry to Sigil, it is almost invariably a terrible idea for them to go there.

Except Asmodeus. He is locked in his little pit for as long as he's bleeding Pit Fiends.
This cuts deep to the heart of the whys that I ultimately will want to ask, and is pretty much my assessment of the situation as well. Thank you. Do you have any sources?
[edit] except Savage Tide, which I will read ASAP.

Assuming it is as you say, an Archfiend would loose their protections if they entered Sigil, this might be the one time an archfiend might risk it. When they have decided to ascend to godhood and want to do it in a place that they can manipulate the universe from.

As for Asmodeus specifically, I think I read that he was locked there too, somewhere... Which makes him a great parallel to Vecna. Vecna should not have been able to leave the Demiplane of Darkness, and should not have been able to enter Sigil. The whole plot of DVD is that he found a way to subvert both those "impossibilities".
I think that reaffirms my thinking in this matter. However, part of Vecna's deal is that he went back to being a mortal. Asmodeus doesn't have normal mortality (or does he... maybe if I say that Asmodeus ascended to fiend hood way back when....)

[BWR]

People say that, but I'm interested to know what those things are. My understanding is that Vecna is special because he didn't break the rules, he just found ways to subvert them. Any specifics on this?


Well to start off with there is the whole bit about nothing getting into Sigil escept through gates. DVD bull****s this with 'Vecna totally came through the Ethereal because thata's where the Lady's mazes are'. With all the rather clever gods in the Multiverse, it strains credulity to think this wasn't attempted before.
Secondly there's the whole 'he wasn't a god at the time he burst through so he wasn't barred'. He was still powerful enough to be barred, so that's more BS.
Thirdly, there is the idea that the Lady needed help taking him out. This point is a bit iffier than the other two, I'll admit, since Aoskar may have been blindsided by the Lady when She took him out, but I still find it rather unbelievable that She would have a hard time with this upstart.

I haven't touched the Sigil part of DVD since I bought it when it first came out so I'm working off somewhat old memories here; there may be stuff I've forgotten.

[Karmea]

but if you have a book and page number, it would help for context.
Sure. Box set, DM's guide to the planes, page 47.

And yeah, not a fan of DVD either. It just doesn't fit the planescape aesthetics.