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alexi
2007-08-29, 06:41 PM
how do you build an effective cross bow weilding ranger or scout? not min/max but just effective?

slexlollar89
2007-08-29, 06:52 PM
archery feats from Players (obvious, but need mentioning), and a few feats in players 2 and comp. adv. (the feats in PH2 let you add some dex to dmg and shoot through enemies :smallbiggrin: ). I dont remember any names, but those are good places to start. You also might consider Zen archery as a ranger (Comp. War.) so you can mantain some spells, but thats iffy.

I would go for a fighter crossbowman (i made a CN drow crossbow fighter, he rocked), but ranger is also cool. If you wouldnt mind, post the guy on this thread when you finnaly make him, because I really like the idea.

TheOOB
2007-08-29, 07:42 PM
The rapid reload feat allows a light crossbow to be used much in the same way as a bow, which means it makes crossbow builds fairly effective. At that point however, you might as well just use a bow and save a feat while maintaining a higher range and gaining access to many shot and the ilk.

Short of a feat/prestige class/magic enhancement that only effects crossbows and not bows (I cant think of one at the moment), there really is no reason to use a crossbow over a bow except that the crossbow is a simple weapon(and for flavor reasons I suppose).

Kizara
2007-08-29, 09:05 PM
Take "Dual-Crossbow Fighting" (basically 2-weapon fighting with crossbows, I'm not sure if this is a real feat somewhere, but its an extremely reasonable homebrew to present to your DM).

Take Rapid Reload, get some kind of special bracers that store your ammo.

Dual-wield hand crossbows, get a build that lets you sneak attack alot.

Wholla, kick-arse gunslinger-like Underworld-esque build.

slexlollar89
2007-08-29, 09:09 PM
Bracers of Storing for two hand xbows, and a big (repeating?) heavy crossbow slung on your back.

does monkeygrip work with xbows? Because I would realy like to carry a freaking balista on my next character.

Person_Man
2007-08-29, 10:30 PM
Use a light crossbow in each hand. Follow the Two Weapon Fighting Tree. At 11th level you'll get 6 attacks.

Enchant your crossbows with Quick Loading (Magic Item Compendium). Now reloading is a free action.

Enchant your crossbows with the Splitting Enhancement (Champions of Ruin). Now whenever you fire an arrow, it splits into two arrows. So at 11th level, you'll get 12 attacks.

Have a friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on your crossbows, to improve their enhancement bonus.

Have an Unseen Servant reload your crossbows (a simple task that only requires a free action). You can have a friend cast it for you, or there are a few magic items out there somewhere that will give you one. I also think that there's a spell in the Spell Compendium that specifically reloads crossbows for you, though for the life of me I can't remember what it's called. Girrilion's Blessing from the Spell Comp gives you 2 extra arms, which will definitely do it. Or you can be a Thri Kreen, have 4 arms, and use Multi-Weapon Fighting with Splitting crossbows.

Alternatively, you can just enchant your bolts with Splitting, and load them into mundane light repeating crossbows. As you run out of arrows, drop the crossbows and draw new ones as a free action using Quickdraw.

Also, try and find a way to deal ability damage or special effects (Wounding enhancement, Rogue 10, Psychic Assassin 5, Psychic Rogue 11, Disciple of the Eye 2, etc). You'll have a ton of attacks, but they won't be dealing much damage. Thus, you want to maximize damage from other sources. Even without the Splitting enhancement, 6 ranged attacks at 11th level dealing ability damage isn't too shabby.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-29, 10:34 PM
Use Crossbow Sniper.

FireSpark
2007-08-29, 10:45 PM
1. Be a Large-sized creature, or one that can use weapons as if they were Large.

2. Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Crossbow), from Races of Stone.

3. Take Rapid Reload, and Monkey Grip feats. (This increases damage on great crossbow to 4d8).

4. Imbue your great crossbow with Quick loading enchantment.

5. Win! For you now have a 4d8 weapon that you can reload as a free action, and take a mere -2 penalty on attack rolls. Congratulations, you are now a living siege weapon.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-30, 12:24 AM
3. Take Rapid Reload, and Monkey Grip feats. (This increases damage on great crossbow to 4d8).

4. Imbue your great crossbow with Quick loading enchantment.

5. Win! For you now have a 4d8 weapon that you can reload as a free action Quick Loading is a magical property that sets the reload speed of a light or hand crossbow to a free action, or a heavy crossbow to a move action. It doesn't apply to great crossbows.

Rapid Reload also sets the speed at which you can reload crossbows, as follows:
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). This feat doesn't apply to great crossbows.

Even if you found a generous DM who would allow these things (the weapon special ability and the feat) to both apply to great crossbows, they would accomplish the exact same thing: enable you to reload as a move action instead of a full-round action. There is no stacking benefit.

JackMage666
2007-08-30, 12:50 AM
1. Be a Large-sized creature, or one that can use weapons as if they were Large.

2. Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Crossbow), from Races of Stone.

3. Take Rapid Reload, and Monkey Grip feats. (This increases damage on great crossbow to 4d8).

4. Imbue your great crossbow with Quick loading enchantment.

5. Win! For you now have a 4d8 weapon that you can reload as a free action, and take a mere -2 penalty on attack rolls. Congratulations, you are now a living siege weapon.

Besides the previous post pointing out flaws, you're also taking a -2 to hit (-3 if you're Large), taking at least a +1 LA, provoke whenever you load/fire, and are using Dex to hit, which is generally decreased with size, so a even lower chance to hit. Plus, you'd have to explain where exactly you bought your huge great crossbow to your DM, and try to explain that you're not attempting to powergame.

Jasdoif
2007-08-30, 12:53 AM
If you have a Strength penalty, it doesn't get applied to crossbows like it does with bows. They also have one more point of average base damage then a comparable bow. And if you have the Telling Blow feat, you'll get more mileage out of a crossbow's higher threat range then you will a bow's higher critical multiplier. (There's also the larger range increment then a comparable bow, and the ability to use a crossbow while prone, but getting use out of those is highly situational.)

If you're interested in full attacking, consider taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating heavy crossbow) instead of Rapid Reload. Same full attack capability, but with higher damage and range. The need to load a new case of bolts after five shots might be inconvenient in a drawn-out encounter, though.

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-30, 01:47 AM
Use a light crossbow in each hand. Follow the Two Weapon Fighting Tree. At 11th level you'll get 6 attacks.

Enchant your crossbows with Quick Loading (Magic Item Compendium). Now reloading is a free action.

Enchant your crossbows with the Splitting Enhancement (Champions of Ruin). Now whenever you fire an arrow, it splits into two arrows. So at 11th level, you'll get 12 attacks.

Have a friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on your crossbows, to improve their enhancement bonus.

Have an Unseen Servant reload your crossbows (a simple task that only requires a free action). You can have a friend cast it for you, or there are a few magic items out there somewhere that will give you one. I also think that there's a spell in the Spell Compendium that specifically does reloads crossbows for you, though for the life of me I can't remember what it's called. Girrilion's Blessing from the Spell Comp gives you 2 extra arms, which will definitely do it. Or you can be a Thri Kreen, have 4 arms, and use Multi-Weapon Fighting with Splitting crossbows.

Alternatively, you can just enchant your bolts with Splitting, and load them into mundane light repeating crossbows. As you run out of arrows, drop the crossbows and draw new ones as a free action using Quickdraw.

Also, try and find a way to deal ability damage or special effects (Wounding enhancement, Rogue 10, Psychic Assassin 5, Psychic Rogue 11, Disciple of the Eye 2, etc). You'll have a ton of attacks, but they won't be dealing much damage. Thus, you want to maximize damage from other sources. Even without the Splitting enhancement, 6 ranged attacks at 11th level dealing ability damage isn't too shabby.
That is disgustingly awesome.

A John Woo-style medieval character. Who would have thought?

Droodle
2007-08-30, 02:18 AM
And if you have the Telling Blow feat, you'll get more mileage out of a crossbow's higher threat range then you will a bow's higher critical multiplier. Not really. Sure a crossbow threatens a critical on a 19 or a 20, but you'll attack more often with a bow. 2 attacks with a 5% of scoring a critical will be at least as likely to net that critical for you as one shot with a 10% chance. Two hits are also better than one hit.....especially when your rogue wins initiative.

Back to the OP, for a Scout, the crossbow is a terrible weapon since their skirmish is based on movement......and you can't use the Greater Manyshot tree with a crossbow. A Ranger can pull it off fairly well, though. PersonMan has offered the best advice. While counter-intuitive, your best bet is the TWF feat chain. I'd go with repeating crossbows (with another bow or other repeaters held in reserve when your first pair runs out).

ByeLindgren
2007-08-30, 02:46 AM
I agree that bows are better, but


2 attacks with a 5% of scoring a critical will be at least as likely to net that critical for you as one shot with a 10% chance.is tough to prove without going to a specific build against a specific AC. If the threat roll has a 100% chance of succeeding, and you're looking for just one critical hit, the crossbow actually provides a better chance.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-30, 02:58 AM
For a scout?

Crossbow Sniper feat. Page 77 of the PHB II.

Most horribly broken feat for scouts/rogues. >_>

You just move two squares or more, and shoot at anything within 60ft. to get your skirmish damage plus half your dex bonus to damage.

Droodle
2007-08-30, 03:30 AM
I agree that bows are better, but [a bow critting as often as a crossbow]is tough to prove without going to a specific build against a specific AC. If the threat roll has a 100% chance of succeeding, and you're looking for just one critical hit, the crossbow actually provides a better chance.The threat roll never has a 100% chance of succeeding and, if it did, you'd still be better of with a bow, because 2 attacks that crit 5% of the time will crit just as often as one attack that crits 10% of the time.....but the bow will crit at x3 damage and, even if neither attack is a crit, you still get two attacks.

Now, I'm only looking at that first attack because the attacks further down the sequence are progressively less likely to hit. Obviously, the benefits of using a bow start to water down as your archer gains extra attacks if your enemy has a low AC, but it all balances out when you consider that most CR appropriate enemies are going to be tough to hit with your weakest attack(s).

ByeLindgren
2007-08-30, 03:38 AM
Ah, your wording changed. They'll crit just as many times per round, assuming you get two bow shots for every one crossbow shot. I suppose the better fixed variable would be to assume that one would have equal attack bonuses, although that can be muddled by a variety of factors (Higher DEX crossbowmen due to less required STR? Manyshot penalties? Feat allocation? Weapon enhancement allocation?)

Person_Man
2007-08-30, 09:14 AM
1) Crossbows do in fact suck for Scouts, as Skirmish depends on movement and Greater Manyshot.

2) Crossbows tend to be a good idea for TWF Rangers, because light crossbows can be used with TWF, and you can always just drop them and switch to two melee weapons if your back is to the wall in a dungeon.

3) I think there's also a crossbow in the Arms and Equipment Guide that holds up to 100 bolts and automatically reloads itself.

4) Monkey Grip is a well known trap. You waste a feat, and usually end up slightly decreasing your expected damage. (Expected damage = Average damage * % chance of hitting).

5) Sniper builds almost never work in D&D. A sniper, by definition, wants to kill its enemy with one shot from a distance. But without magic or a powerful charge combo, its almost impossible to kill an enemy in a single shot. Thus, a ranged build must have a large number of attacks (and often has to be within 30 feet to use them effectively).

Curmudgeon
2007-08-30, 09:54 AM
3) I think there's also a crossbow in the Arms and Equipment Guide that holds up to 100 bolts and automatically reloads itself. No, there's just the Quick-Loading weapon special ability, which has been updated in Magic Item Compendium. Arms and Equipment Guide is an older book, so various parts of it have been updated in newer supplement. One example is the great crossbow, which has been revised in Races of Stone -- with an improved 18-20/x2 threat range. It's still an exotic weapon, though, so you'd really need an excuse to go for it. Best bet is Telling Blow and a DM who doesn't impose the 30' sneak/skirmish range limit that applies when a target is denied its DEX bonus to AC. (Whether this 30' range limit is supposed to apply to Telling Blow is entirely ambiguous, and depends on whether you give more weight to normal rules or a feat that overrides the normal rules.)

Funkyodor
2007-08-30, 10:38 AM
Get Use Magic Device skill up so you can activate a Wand of Lightning Bolt and/or Fireball, sling it under a Heavy Repeating Crossbow with an enlarged magazine (don't know what book thats in). Either get a friend or have the ability to cast Greater Magic Weapon to enchant it up as high as you can go. Purchase special Magazines with various specialized ammuniton. Going against heavily armored goons? Brilliant Energy ammo. Going against Incorporial or hidden foes? Ghost Touch and Seeking ammo. Supressing the masses but you don't want to kill anyone? Merciful Human Bane ammo with a few Screaming bolts scattered around. Everynow and then you can crap out a fireball and or lightning bolt when you get bored of just shooting full round actions. Play him like a Mercenary, Rambo, or Crazy AvP Marine.

Don't know about the Unseen servant thing with dual crossbows. I thought they could only perform one action a round. But regardless their move is only 15'.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-30, 10:50 AM
As a bard (besides getting other goodies for x-bow use) you could cast animate objects to make the bolts load themselves into the crossbow. Or give you +2 to hit. Or +2 to some skill checks as the DM sees fit (courtesy nanobot optimisers out there...). Yeah.

- Giacomo

Nekoshodan
2007-08-30, 04:06 PM
About the crit%,(ignoring confirmation)
Chance of not getting a crit in a round with the bow is 95%*95%=90.25%. there is a 5%*5%=.25% chance of 2 crits, so your average 'crits/round' are
1-90.25%+.25%=10%

Chance of not getting a crit with a crossbow shot, 90%, so chance of crit is the same, 10%.

The 'crits/round' average is the same, though the chance of a threat in any given round is higher with the crossbow. It just can't ever threat twice with its one shot.



With confirmation that will fail y% of the time, bow damage x and crossbow x+1, after 1 step of simplification, with bow on left side of equation is

3x[1-(.95+.05y)*(.95+.05y)+(.05y)^2] =! 2(x+1)[1-(.9+.1y)]


well, they're never equal with 0%<y<100%. in the 2:1 shot ratio, the bow crits outdamage the crossbow crits, regardless of the confirmation chance.

I'm not going to do the overall damage comparison right now, but I'm pretty sure that more shots would give a clear advantage there.


Regardless, the post was not about bows.
(I just couldn't resist the math)

edit: miscalculation, as mentioned by Jasdoif below

Jasdoif
2007-08-30, 04:20 PM
Not really. Sure a crossbow threatens a critical on a 19 or a 20, but you'll attack more often with a bow.There is a reason that getting full attack capability with the crossbow is recommended for crossbow users. Aside from this, in a situation where you couldn't make a full attack anyway, you only get one hit.

But in general, yes: crossbows are for people who can't make good use of bows. If you can use a bow effectively, you'd likely be better off going that route and taking Manyshot instead of an exotic proficiency with a repeating crossbow or Rapid Reload with a light crossbow. Getting more crits is a nice little bonus, but not consistent enough to be relying on.



About the crit%,(ignoring confirmation)
Chance of not getting a crit in a round with the bow is 95%*95%=90.25%

Chance of not getting a crit with a crossbow shot, 90%.

The 1 shot crossbow actually has a better chance of threatening a crit in a round than the 2 shot bow.You forget: The chance of getting two crits with the bow is 5%*5%=0.25%.

Factor that into the bow, and your average chance matches the crossbow.

Aurion
2007-08-30, 09:49 PM
Perhaps for a prestige go into Kensai and get a bigger hit die, plus make the x-bow your signature weapon so you can buff it all to hell. Splitting+Keen+Freezing burst+shocking burst+Flamingburst+ a +1 to overcome DR....

Person_Man
2007-08-31, 09:28 AM
Perhaps for a prestige go into Kensai and get a bigger hit die, plus make the x-bow your signature weapon so you can buff it all to hell. Splitting+Keen+Freezing burst+shocking burst+Flamingburst+ a +1 to overcome DR....

DR is almost never a problem for ranged builds. Ammo is cheap. Just carry a wide variety of ammo made out of every conceivable material with a variety of enchantments. Have your party divvy up and invest in the various Knowledge Skills, and you'll always know which one to use.

Also, Keen is a waste of an enchantment on a crossbow. The crit values are too low to be meaningful. Instead of Keen, Flaming Burst, and Shocking Burst (+5 value, +2d6 all the time, extra 2d10 damage 20%ish of the time), you'll deal higher average damage with Flaming, Shocking, Acid, Cold, and Impact (+5 value, +5d6 damage all the time).

Otherwise, it is in fact a great idea for ranged builds to stack as many different magical properties on top of each other to increase damage, usually by buying a powerful magic bow, using powerful magic ammo, and having a friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on your bow to increase the enhancement bonus.

Ikkitosen
2007-09-04, 09:55 AM
Also, Keen is a waste of an enchantment on a crossbow. The crit values are too low to be meaningful. Instead of Keen, Flaming Burst, and Shocking Burst (+5 value, +2d6 all the time, extra 2d10 damage 20%ish of the time), you'll deal higher average damage with Flaming, Shocking, Acid, Cold, and Impact (+5 value, +5d6 damage all the time).

Surely Telling Blow makes Keen useful for a sneak attack crossbow build, or am I missing something?

Aurion
2007-09-04, 10:22 AM
Does rapid reload work with duel wielding crossbows, because in the PHB it says that while you can fire a crossbow one handed, and duel wield them, you can't reload them if your hands are holding something.

Ikkitosen
2007-09-04, 10:24 AM
No, it doesn't work. I'm under the impression that's what the quickloading enchantment is for, and maybe also Person Man's suggestion of using an unseen servant.

Person_Man
2007-09-04, 11:03 AM
Surely Telling Blow makes Keen useful for a sneak attack crossbow build, or am I missing something?

Telling Blow adds Sneak Attack damage when you score a critical hit. Average Sneak Attack damage is equal to +1.75 per level, assuming you have full progression in a Sneak Attack class (i.e., +1d6 every other level). So, assuming you hit 100% of the time you roll 17-20, and assuming you confirm every time that you hit, then a Crossbow using Improved Crit and Telling Blow add an average of +.35 damage per attack per level. That tops out at +7 damage per attack for two feats at 20th level - Less really, because you don't always hit on a roll of 17-19, and you don't always confirm the crits you do roll. That's pretty cruddy in my book.

Even under the best of conditions, builds that depend on critical hits are rarely worth it. Too many enemies are immune to crits. When you do threaten a crit, you don't always hit, and even if you hit, you don't always confirm. And even then, the average damage tends to be pretty poor.

However, I would still use Telling Blow under some circumstances. For example, a Rogue 3/Swash 17 with Daring Outlaw, full TWF, and a Scabbard of Keen Edges or Keen rapiers or something similar. Add in Martial Study or a magic item that grants Blood in the Water (Tome of Battle) and you've got a decent build going. Still useless against Undead/Constucts/Plants etc, but definitely playable.

FireSpark
2007-09-04, 11:34 AM
Okay, so maybe my idea was simply a case of beautiful flavor with horrible crunch. But as a DM, I'd say the coolness factor of a squad of ogres attacking some small town or village by lobbing ballista sized bolts into it, is pretty high. :smalltongue:


And while we're on the subject of enchantments, I was wondering if anyone could kindly render their opinion on something for me. (emphasis on the kindly)

Someone earlier (too lazy to look now for who) mentioned the good ol' Arms and Equipment Guide. And while I understand the book is 3.0, it is still useful, and commonly used by my group, especially for all the alchemical goodness therein. However, something within its pages did spawn something of a debate within our little circle.

There was a 'specific' weapon type known as the self-loading crossbow, which basically was a heavy crowwbow with an animated string that recocked itself, meaning the wielder needing only to place a bolt into the slot as a move action. There is even a sidebar stating that the effect of the string "reduced the action" required to reload it, and it even mentions the rapid reload feat, stating that a self-loading crossbow wielder with the rapid reload feat, could load a heavy crossbow as a free action. The hitch comes into play when we look at the quick-loading enhancement (which, IIRC, made an appearance in the AEG), which as stated above overlaps with the Rapid Reload feat, due to their doing the same thing.

Now follow me here, cause this where the disagreement started.


A heavy crossbow takes a full round action to reload. Yes.
The same heavy crossbow with the quick loading enchantment takes a move action to reload. Yes
A self-loading crossbow (which is a heavy crossbow) takes a move action to reload. Yes. (according to the AEG)
So, if a I took a self-loading crossbow, and imbued it further with the quick loading enchantment, it should be a free action to reload. Yes or No?

Curmudgeon
2007-09-04, 11:42 AM
So, if a I took a self-loading crossbow, and imbued it further with the quick loading enchantment, it should be a free action to reload. Yes or No? The answer is: It's entirely up to your DM.

As a specific weapon, there are no fixed rules for adding other weapon enhancements to a self-loading crossbow. That is, the existence of such a concocted weapon isn't allowed by the existing rules. Your DM would have to OK the combination, and specify what effect that combination has on rate of fire.

You're asking the wrong people.

FireSpark
2007-09-04, 01:43 PM
The answer is: It's entirely up to your DM.

As a specific weapon, there are no fixed rules for adding other weapon enhancements to a self-loading crossbow. That is, the existence of such a concocted weapon isn't allowed by the existing rules. Your DM would have to OK the combination, and specify what effect that combination has on rate of fire.

You're asking the wrong people.

Actually the case is rather moot, since the game event that spawned the disagreement was over a year ago. I just wanted to see what the opinions of my fellow board members were.

And I thought you could make any sort of magic items, of course many seem to think (and rightfully so) that the magic crafting RAW are broken just about every which-a-way. But still using them as the guidelines that the developers obviously did, the self loading crossbow (and its enhancement bonus, +2 or something) breaks down perfectly. Which means that its a simple matter of math to figure out how much the animated bow string costs. Of course, since said discussion was so long ago, I no longer have the pertinent number crunching at hand.

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-04, 02:40 PM
So, the dual-wielding TWF crossbow idea wouldn't work without having somebody else/unseen servant/wood wose/whatever reload your hand crossbows?

Person_Man
2007-09-04, 04:25 PM
So, the dual-wielding TWF crossbow idea wouldn't work without having somebody else/unseen servant/wood wose/whatever reload your hand crossbows?

Other methods:

1) Third Hand from the Magic Item Compendium.

2) Girillion's Blessing from the Spell Compendium.

3) Thri Kreen race from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (with Multi-Weapon Fighting, they can use 3 light crossbows and have a free hand.)

4) Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm): Buy a Wand of Animate Objects (which will animate 11 objects) or pay someone to cast it and Permanency for you. They can Ready an action to re-load themselves into your crossbows during your turn. As constructs, they wouldn't necessarily die/break until someone targeted and killed them (you might want to make them out of adamantine, just to be safe). Then they could just fly back to you and begin the cycle again. Or you could cast it on your crossbows, and have them float in front of you as you switch back and forth between them, firing and reloading.

5) Custom magic item from a reasonable DM.