Fighting with Two Weapons but not Dual-Wielding

[Alezaire]

Ok hivemind, help me out.

I'm trying to build a character to have lots of options in combat so I want to know if it is possible to switch between Dual-Wielding and attacking with only one weapon.

I will try to explain: I understand that when you are Dual-Wielding, your off-hand weapon can not gain the benefits of adding your ability modifier to the damage of your attack but the question is: suppose you were simply holding a weapon in each hand (with the option to Dual-Wield but for this purpose just to have a different attack option) and, instead of attacking with both, only attacking with the off-hand weapon. Do you get to add damage bonuses as normal? Or does it still count as "not your main weapon" as far as damage bonuses?

Example, my character has a Shortsword in their main hand and a Whip in their off-hand. When they attack with both weapons the Whip has no DEX mod bonus to damage. (I am aware of the Dual-Wielder Feat, but that's not relevant here)
This time, I only want to attack with my Whip (held in the off-hand). So,
A) Do I get to add the DEX bonus to damage as I am not actually attacking with both weapons?

Also, just to make this extra complicated for fun, do I get to add +2 damage (Dueling Fighting Style) to the off-hand weapon when:

B) I attack with both weapons (Dual-Wielding)

C) I attack with only the off-hand weapon as described above

Hope that all makes sense...

[Blood of Gaea]

Nothing stops you from holding two weapons and only attacking with one.

Dueling will only apply when you're holding a single one-handed weapon, so no.

Solution: sheath or drop the weapon you aren't using.

[Davrix]

Not to mention You can sheath your weapon as your free item interaction and Draw another when you make an attack action. I think a sage advice clarified this but I cant remember off the top of my head.

But yea you could be holding a sword in one hand and a whip in another. If you want to make your attack with the sword one round and take an offhand strike with the whip as your bonus you can and then the next round attack with the whip as your main and then take a bonus to offhand with the sword.

[Alezaire]

Ok, so no +2 Dueling damage bonus while wielding two weapons (even if you're not attacking with both)

Can you get the DEX Mod damage bonus when only attacking with the "off-hand" weapon?

[Blood of Gaea]

Ok, so no +2 Dueling damage bonus while wielding two weapons (even if you're not attacking with both)

Can you get the DEX Mod damage bonus when only attacking with the "off-hand" weapon?
If you only attack with one weapon, that weapon would be your main hand weapon.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Not to mention You can sheath your weapon as your free item interaction and Draw another when you make an attack action. I think a sage advice clarified this but I cant remember off the top of my head.

No, drawing a weapon always counts as an object interaction. (Otherwise there'd be a part of the Dual Wielder feat that did nothing. Also, people would like throwing better.)

[Davrix]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/sheating-two-weapons/

Then this confuses the heck out of me with what is being said lol

[Blood of Gaea]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/sheating-two-weapons/

Then this confuses the heck out of me with what is being said lol
Can you elaborate on what is confusing you?

[Davrix]

Can you elaborate on what is confusing you?

Well it sounds like he is saying you can sheath your weapon as your item interaction and draw one as you make your attack action.

[Blood of Gaea]

Well it sounds like he is saying you can sheath your weapon as your item interaction and draw one as you make your attack action.
That is incorrect, you only get one free interaction per turn. If you have the Dual Wielder feat, you can draw or sheath two weapons instead of one.

[Alezaire]

If you only attack with one weapon, that weapon would be your main hand weapon.

Does this mean it doesn't matter which hand it is in?

Eg. When I am actually Dual-Wielding the Whip it would count as my off-hand weapon but if I am ONLY attacking with the Whip it gets the normal DEX Mod bonus as if it were in my main hand.

Sorry, I'm just still not clear on this.

Basically do the off-hand rules (no ability mod+ to damage) only apply when you are Dual-Wielding (meaning actually attacking with both weapons in the same attack)?

[opaopajr]

There is no "off-hand" in 5e. Again. There is no "off-hand" in 5e. :smallmad: This is not a keyword that exists.

You may have a weapon in each hand. If they both have reach to a target, you may choose which of these you use to Attack. If you have Extra Attacks, it does NOT have a clause forcing you to use the same weapon (or hand) for the extra attacks. Two-Weapon Fighting is open to everyone, but requires specific weapon requirements to open the Bonus Action attack.

You may not Fighting Style, Dueling if you break its forbidding clause about no other weapons.

i.e. So your wizard can 'Gandalf' all it wants, walking around with a longsword and staff. Wizards make one attack normally, so it'll have to choose. A 5th lvl eldritch knight fighter with extra attacks can 'Gandalf' and hit someone with their longsword, move, extra attack with their staff, move again and action surge to attack with their longsword, and finish up (with the other extra attack induced by attacking with the action surge) with another blow with the staff. Because snazzy flair jazz hands. :smallcool:

Citation Below:

Dueling
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

(note forbidding clause!)

Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
(Basic 5e PHB. August 2014. p. 25.)

(note lack of further restrictions!)

Making an Attack
Melee Attacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword,
a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack. Certain creatures (typically those larger than Medium) have melee attacks with a greater reach than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.
When you are unarmed, you can fight in melee by making an unarmed strike, as shown in the Weapons table in chapter 5.
(Basic 5e PHB. August 2014. p.73.)

(note melee clause about reach is not tying reach to a specific hand, "main hand" or "off-hand," because the terms do not exist in 5e!)

Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modi er to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modi er is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
(Basic 5e PHB. August 2014. p.74.)

(note required equipment clause to open Bonus Action Attack!)

[Coffee_Dragon]

Well it sounds like he is saying you can sheath your weapon as your item interaction and draw one as you make your attack action.

Important context there is that it's Mike Mearls, not Jeremy Crawford, and he's not explaining the rule but making a general recommendation to err well on the side of generosity.

[Vogie]

If you have a One-handed weapon, a Shadow Blade and two attacks during an action, you can throw the Shadow blade as a ranged attack, then attack in melee with your one-handed weapon, with the dueling bonus, as "you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons".

Next turn, resummon a shadow blade as a bonus action, and do it all over again.

[Mjolnirbear]

I'm now reading it that you could 1. Have a dagger in your hand; 2. Attack with it and get Duelling; then 3. Draw second dagger in other hand for bonus action attack. Am I reading it wrong?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Well, it's called Two-Weapon Fighting, not Fighting With One Weapon and Then Fighting With One Weapon Again. So a natural reading would be that you get the bonus action if you are in fact wielding two weapons at the time of the first attack.

There used to be a popular interpretation that you could start out by taking the bonus action to throw while still holding two weapons, then take the "main" attack and qualify for Dueling. But a more recent clarification on the timing and creation of conditional bonus actions invalidates this.

[Falcon X]

My general rule is that if it works out mechanically the same way, I don’t care if you change the flavor.

If you would normally do two attacks while holding one weapon in one hand, but instead want to attack once with one hand and once with the other, I say there is no mechanical difference.
Use the damage die of each given weapon so long as they can be wielded one-handed.
Heck, I might even let you use the off-hand weapon as a shield for AC purposes.

[opaopajr]

TWF and Dueling are mutually exclusive. Read the bolded clauses.

TWF has a gerund ("-ing) for hold -- "holding" -- for both hands. This means it has to be happening now, concurrently and continuing, for things to progress to the next step, the BA. It even further goes into explicitly naming what keyword properties those equipment things you hold simultaneously and continuing must be. They must be light, melee weapons.

There is continuity allowance for the thrown property attached to light, melee weapons. So if you want, you may use the throw property to throw first, throw during BA after, or throw both. This is the Specific Beating General.

Dueling explicitly demands checking the condition of having "no other weapons," for it to go off.

These are mutually exclusive checks. They do not combine because of the same temporal check timing. However, like always, you are free to houserule as you please. :smalltongue:

[Spacehamster]

I guess you could have both dual wield and dueling style, make one mainhand attack without dueling to trigger ability to bonus action offhand attack, the. Use free action to stove away offhand and make remaining attack/s with dueling. Next turn make mainhand attacks with dueling, use free action to draw offhand and make offhand attack. Small gain and silly af tho lol

[Chugger]

All this hand-shifting crap honestly ruins the game for most of us. We ignore it.

When the hand-shifting abeyance takes over, you're no longer playing DnD - you're playing Dungeons and Accountancy - and it's a boring, tedious, mind-rotting game.

[Joe the Rat]

Keep in mind the dual wield issues apply to getting an extra attack as a bonus action with the second weapon. When you have Extra Attack, you could attack with each weapon as one of your "regular" attacks.

This does not circumvent the duelist restriction.

[Spacehamster]

Tbh dueling should apply to dual wielding as well, that would make it competitive with the other styles, restriction could be that offhand needs to be light weapon to be able to get dueling to apply.

Could see a pretty beastly 11 champ 9 barb with that.

[Alezaire]

Thanks to everyone for all your help with this.

I think I've managed to confuse people (including myself!). I did originally ask about Dueling but I hadn't really read it clearly at the time and I fully understand the rules for that now (you can't get the bonus for Dueling unless you are only weilding one weapon).

The crux of my confusion was the difference between just holding two weapons and actually attacking with two weapons.

When you attack with two weapons "You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack" (Player's Handbook, Page 195) and I wanted to be clear that this only applies when you make the bonus attack with the "other" weapon and not just because you are holding a weapon in each hand at the time (as it is with Dueling).
I used the terms "off-hand" and "main-hand" only as an attempt to clarify my question but that just seems to have caused yet more confusion.

I think I have had my questions answered now, but I would like to check I have it all correct. Please could someone verify the following (explaining how/if I am mistaken where appropriate):

Scenario A - My character is wielding both a Shortsword and a Whip (here, by "wielding" I mean both are drawn). When they attack with just their Shortsword they add their ability modifier to the damage but not the Dueling bonus (because they are holding more than one weapon).

Scenario B - My character is wielding only a Shortsword (here, by "wielding" I mean that weapon is drawn and any other weapons are sheathed/stowed). When they attack with the Shortsword this time they add their ability modifier to the damage and the Dueling bonus.

Scenario C - My character is wielding both a Shortsword and a Whip (here, by "wielding" I mean both are drawn). This time, when they attack with both weapons they add their ability modifier but not the Dueling bonus to the damage of the Shortsword attack (main attack) and neither their ability modifier nor the Dueling bonus to damage of the Whip attack (bonus attack).

Please note, I don't need any further clarification on Drawing/Stowing weapons as I am clear on this (and I will be taking the Dual Wielder feat anyway)

Thanks again

[Arial Black]

There used to be a popular interpretation that you could start out by taking the bonus action to throw while still holding two weapons, then take the "main" attack and qualify for Dueling. But a more recent clarification on the timing and creation of conditional bonus actions invalidates this.

Can you provide the source for this, and copy/paste this 'clarification'.

Would it mess with the Shield Master 'bash before attack' that was previously confirmed to work?

[Arial Black]

TWF and Dueling are mutually exclusive. Read the bolded clauses.

TWF has a gerund ("-ing) for hold -- "holding" -- for both hands. This means it has to be happening now, concurrently and continuing, for things to progress to the next step, the BA. It even further goes into explicitly naming what keyword properties those equipment things you hold simultaneously and continuing must be. They must be light, melee weapons.

There is continuity allowance for the thrown property attached to light, melee weapons. So if you want, you may use the throw property to throw first, throw during BA after, or throw both. This is the Specific Beating General.

Dueling explicitly demands checking the condition of having "no other weapons," for it to go off.

These are mutually exclusive checks. They do not combine because of the same temporal check timing. However, like always, you are free to houserule as you please. :smalltongue:

I have to disagree.

When the TWF rules use the word 'holding', they refer to 'holding' the weapon at the moment you execute the attack with that weapon.

When (meaning the same round that you use the Attack Action you are generating a bonus action) you attack with a light melee weapon you ARE HOLDING in one hand (therefore, at the moment you execute that attack) you may use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon you ARE HOLDING in the other hand (so you attack with it as you are holding it in one hand, the other hand).

The 'are holding' clauses are actually 'are holding in ONE HAND/THE OTHER HAND' clauses. It's about them being two, one-handed weapons, each being held in different hands when you execute their attacks. This prevents TWF being used with two-handed weapons, or from using a single one-handed weapon in your right hand and then switching that SAME weapon into your left hand for the bonus attack. You need two actual weapons, and (at least) two actual hands.

There is no restriction about the weapon not being used for that attack being held at the same time as the weapon that is being used to make the attack.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Can you provide the source for this, and copy/paste this 'clarification'.

Would it mess with the Shield Master 'bash before attack' that was previously confirmed to work?

I'm not sure how to easily find it now since it's from a couple of months back. Someone pushed JC on the subject of whether there's an abstract prelude to taking an action which sets off game triggers before the action is executed. He said there is not: taking an action is the same as resolving it.

This does contradict the previous ruling on Shield Master, but I'm pretty sure we already had contradicting rulings before that, e.g. that you can't Flurry of Blows before taking (and finishing) the Attack action that enabled it. As always, one can choose what of Sage Advice to keep and discard.

[CircleOfTheRock]

Nothing stops you from holding two weapons and only attacking with one.

Dueling will only apply when you're holding a single one-handed weapon, so no.

Solution: sheath or drop the weapon you aren't using.
No, no, Dueling will only apply if you're not wielding the second weapon.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The 'are holding' clauses are actually 'are holding in ONE HAND/THE OTHER HAND' clauses. It's about them being two, one-handed weapons, each being held in different hands when you execute their attacks. This prevents TWF being used with two-handed weapons, or from using a single one-handed weapon in your right hand and then switching that SAME weapon into your left hand for the bonus attack. You need two actual weapons, and (at least) two actual hands.

So, you can stab Bob with dagger X, walk over to a table, put down dagger X, pick up dagger Y, walk back to Bob and stab him with dagger Y, and this is what the game cheerfully refers to as Two-Weapon Fighting.

But you can't stab Bob with dagger X, walk over to a table, put down dagger X, look at it for a moment, pick it up again, walk back to Bob and stab him a second time with dagger X. Because that would be silly and not Two-Weapon Fighting at all!

Sorry, this doesn't pass any smell test.