Help 3.5 Core Druid 3rd level

[retaliation08]

Hey all.

I am making a Core only druid character as a helper to ease a new friend into DnD 3.5. We are the only two party members.

So far I have decided on Human Druid 3 with a riding dog companion, spf conjuration, and augment summons.

I am undecided on thr 3rd level feat and spending WBL of 2700gp.

I considered CWI and using starting gold to craft items for the two of us (he is a barbarian), but there arent too many things at this level that a druid can make.

I will probably get a pearl of power and wand of CLW regardless, but what are other good core items to look into getting? Is CWI worth it at this level?

I considered extend spell for summons, but spontaneous SNA would take 2 rounds to cast. I dont think it is that effective at 3rd level.

Improved initiative seems the best bet.

Thoughts?

[Seharvepernfan]

You're already a very powerful character, maybe ease up on that and take track for versatility. Druids are the best trackers anyway, and your dog can track by scent as well. Dragonhide breastplate and a darkwood heavy shield are good items, maybe make one of them +1. Extra scrolls would be a good idea, and don't forget barding for your dog.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Switch from Human to Gnome, you don't really need the bonus feat or skill points. Otherwise, Craft Wondrous Item can be useful if you get enough down time to make stuff.

[retaliation08]

I think my companion can track for me

Also, he has to be human for story reasons and my last character was a gnome.

Good point about downtime. We don't get much downtime so maybe CWI would be useless after getting starting gear.

[Darrin]

Well, there's the "Kung Fu Panda" option: Improved Unarmed Strike. It's not all that useful until you get Wild Shape, but once you get to 5th level, you can make iterative attacks with unarmed strikes and then get all your other natural weapons as secondary attacks.

If you're looking for a more general "always useful" feat, then Improved Initiative is a good fallback option.

[retaliation08]

Ya that is probably a good call at this point considering my 12 dex.

Any thoughts on items aside from pearl of power and CLW rod?

I am considering Ever burning torch, hand of the mage, and grey bag of tricks or just keeping the money.

[Darrin]

Any thoughts on items aside from pearl of power and CLW rod?


Talk to Shax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)).

I'd skip the everburning torch. If it's a core game, then you may not have some of the cheaper alternatives (angel radiance or liquid sunlight), but torches are really cheap, and 30% of magic weapons shed light. Hand of the Mage is a good pick, but I try to save up for the rust- or tan-colored Bag of Tricks.

[Zaq]

Druids have an awful lot of options that don't necessarily involve ranged attack rolls, but they do have enough spells that involve ranged attack rolls that it might be worth looking at the Point Blank Shot / Precise Shot tree. Perhaps less useful if you've already got your build set in stone up to level 3, since you care way more about Precise Shot than PBS, and your 6th level feat is presumably locked into Natural Spell unless your GM banned it for being OP. But taking a -4 for shooting into melee kinda sucks, so if you like using Magic Stones and Produce Flame and such, it might turn a few misses into hits.

You're right that Extend Spell isn't really worth it on summons at your current level, but it's not a bad feat to have in general. It's all about how you use it. It's more useful for letting hours/level spells last all day or all night or letting minutes/level or 10 minutes/level spells last for multiple combats than for making rounds/level spells last longer through a single combat.

Do you have or plan to ever have an animal companion big enough to ride on, or do you like summoning things that can be ridden (like, say, hippogriffs from SNA2)? If so, Mounted Combat isn't the worst possible option in a Core-only setting.

[Nifft]

Craft Wondrous Item is solid long-term value.

Scribe Scroll is another choice, and you'll get surprisingly good value from it since the Druid's core spell list is chock full of situational utility spells that you won't want to prep every day, but you will enjoy having on-hand occasionally. Stuff like speak with animals, speak with plants, lesser restoration, neutralize poison, and animal messenger are good candidates. If you're in more of an exploration / survival game, then you might want a cache of spells like endure elements and stone shape. For investigation / intrigue, the speak with... spells are going to be useful.

[retaliation08]

I like the idea of scrolls if not for the downtime. If I understand it correctly, creating a scroll follows the minimum of one 8 hour day rule like creating other magic items. Am I wrong?

[Covenant12]

I like the idea of scrolls if not for the downtime. If I understand it correctly, creating a scroll follows the minimum of one 8 hour day rule like creating other magic items. Am I wrong?There are rules that everyone can use to make low level scrolls faster (I think 2 hours for under 250 gp cost), but they aren't core so may be out.

Core though, you can make a scroll of 6 1st level spells each day (some 2nd if under 1000 gp value), so stocking up on 1st/2nd level scrolls shouldn't take annoyingly long.

[Nifft]

I like the idea of scrolls if not for the downtime. If I understand it correctly, creating a scroll follows the minimum of one 8 hour day rule like creating other magic items. Am I wrong?

You're correct but there's an important and often-overlooked aspect which makes it worthwhile.

1/ You can put more than one spell on a single scroll;and
2/ You spend 8 hours per 1k GP worth of magic item.



Scrolls

A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell.


Physical Description

A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8 ½ inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 ½ inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm


So you can create a single scroll with a LOT of low-level spells on it, all at once, over the course of that single 8-hour day -- at Druid 3, you can scribe a scroll which contains every spell you could prepare that day. That effectively doubles your next-day casting, or gives you a lot of utility spells which you can use over the next few levels, all from a single day of downtime.

If your DM is lenient, you might be able to scribe several copies of a single spell into a single scroll just by preparing it once.

[retaliation08]

Oh cool, I hadnt considered that.
Now I have to figure out how to protect and store multiple valuable scrolls like this at level 3 without a bag of holding.

[Endarire]

+1 to Craft Wondrous Item and Improved Initiative. CWI is good long-term since your level 6 feat is almost certainly Natural Spell.

[Nifft]

Oh cool, I hadnt considered that.
Now I have to figure out how to protect and store multiple valuable scrolls like this at level 3 without a bag of holding.

Just take Craft Wondrous Item and make a Handy Haversack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack)...

OH WAIT.

... just kidding, but it does highlight that CWI is also an excellent choice.

-- -- --

As an additional selling point, CWI allows you to make Pearls of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower).

If you're mostly using spells out of combat, then scrolls are best: you can have a whole library of utility effects.

But if you're mostly using spells in combat, then having several Pearls of Power might be better, since you'll be able to recover your spells between encounters. Really, both feats are excellent, and you'd do well with either. The optimal choice depends on the type of game you're playing.

-- -- --

My notes on scroll creation...

- Make ONE copy of any spells you think might be useful.

- Good candidates: no saving throw, no SR, useful at minimum caster level, can solve a problem out-of-combat.

- If you're not sure about a spell, then don't make a copy. If you ever wish you had a specific spell, or when you use a specific spell out of combat, make a note of that fact. These are good candidates to scribe into scrolls. Make ONE copy of each spell you use or wish you had prepared.

- Don't scribe more than ONE copy of a spell until after you actually use it (from a scroll or prepared). Some spells look great but don't perform in practice.

- The exception to the above rule are recovery spells like cure light wounds and lesser restoration and neutralize poison. Whenever you're making a high-level scroll, round the total price up to the nearest 1,000 GP by adding in these sort of spells.

- When you actually use a spell from a scroll, make a note of that fact. Make multiple copies of each spell that actually gets used, and replace these as you can. That way you're only making multiple copies of spells that actually perform, and you're less likely to make too many expensive mistakes.

[retaliation08]

The optimal choice depends on the type of game you're playing.



The game isvery low magic and kind of wild and swingy because of the DMs random percentile charts. WBL is completely ignored (except in this case weirdly because of new player i guess) in favor of handing out magic items according to % tables. Wealth in coin is hard to come by and most places dont have much to buy unwanted items with.

Makes me skeptical of the utility of any creation feats after initial wealth. Although statting with 50% more magic items or 1k gp worth of scrolls would be effective for the next fee levels.

[Elkad]

Even skipping the non-core items, I'd never buy an Everburning Torch. Sunrods give more light, and you are only out 2gp if you decide to drop one down a well or throw it down a hallway.

Buy ten sunrods, replace as needed. Invest the other 90gp in scrolls or something.

There is a weight consideration, but that's why you brought a packmule barbarian, right?

[MeimuHakurei]

First of all, Level 3 is where your summons last three rounds, so getting Spell Focus (Conjuration) + Augment Summoning could really help if you plan on using them with any regularity. Use Black Bears and Wolves mainly for combat, while using Eagles and small Air Elementals against airborne targets. Those summons can do a decent amount of damage while they last and even soak up a few hits. So I'd say your feat choices are spot-on.

As for gear, Wand of Cure Light Wounds and Pearl of Power I are good options. I'd also consider a Cloak of Resistance +1, which helps with saves. I'd also recommend a couple scrolls for useful druid spells that are more situational (Endure Elements and Animal Messenger mainly).

Magic Weapons and Armor is hardly worth it for you because you'll not be able to get high quality armors (Chain Shirts and Breastplates), your weapon selection is weak and once you get wildshape, it becomes irrelevant anyways. If you feel the need to have a weapon, I'd consider grabbing Simple Weapon Proficiency so you're not stuck trying to damage enemies with a sling.

[Eldariel]

Other feats of potential interest are in Monster Manual if the DM allows you to take them (you need Wildshape before you really qualify). Flyby Attack is great for casting, while Multiattack is interesting for any kind of a bruiser Druid. Also other combat feats, like Combat Expertise > Improved Trip and the mentioned Improved Unarmed Strike (and potentially Improved Grapple) are quite interesting. Combat Reflexes isn't bad either; many animals are fairly big for reach and have pretty good all-round stats. Something like Dire Ape wielding a reach weapon can make for a fearsome control build. Druid can even make decent use of Stunning Fist if they feel so inclined with their skyhigh Wis though that's generally excessive.

However, Core has other considerations. It lacks spells to bypass spell resistance so Spell Penetration gains surprising amounts of value. Most of the more important opponents have spell resistance so if you plan on making use of your Baleful Polymorphs, Finger of Deaths and company, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration are no-brainers. Also, Spell Focus isn't actually an awful feat itself, if you want to focus on something in particular. Transmutation is for example a school Druids can target multiple saves with (Entangle for Ref, Baleful Polymorph for Fort) and a decent school to take it in, though the effect of the feat is a bit minor. Others aren't impossible either.

[retaliation08]

-- -- --

My notes on scroll creation...

- Make ONE copy of any spells you think might be useful.

- Good candidates: no saving throw, no SR, useful at minimum caster level, can solve a problem out-of-combat.

- If you're not sure about a spell, then don't make a copy. If you ever wish you had a specific spell, or when you use a specific spell out of combat, make a note of that fact. These are good candidates to scribe into scrolls. Make ONE copy of each spell you use or wish you had prepared.

- Don't scribe more than ONE copy of a spell until after you actually use it (from a scroll or prepared). Some spells look great but don't perform in practice.

- The exception to the above rule are recovery spells like cure light wounds and lesser restoration and neutralize poison. Whenever you're making a high-level scroll, round the total price up to the nearest 1,000 GP by adding in these sort of spells.

- When you actually use a spell from a scroll, make a note of that fact. Make multiple copies of each spell that actually gets used, and replace these as you can. That way you're only making multiple copies of spells that actually perform, and you're less likely to make too many expensive mistakes.

If I have unused spells at the end of the day, can I scribe them into a scroll at the ratio of 8hours:1k gp? Or does it always take at least 8 hours to scribe a spell whether its 6.25gp or 1k gp?

[Nifft]

If I have unused spells at the end of the day, can I scribe them into a scroll at the ratio of 8hours:1k gp? Or does it always take at least 8 hours to scribe a spell whether its 6.25gp or 1k gp?

Always takes at least 8 hours, unfortunately.



Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day

[retaliation08]

So at this level, I could get 9 (all daily prepped) spells on a scroll in 8 hours. Not bad. Essentially double spells for the next day.

[DEMON]

Can you scribe the same spell on the scroll more than once? Or does it have to hold unique spells?

[Nifft]

Can you scribe the same spell on the scroll more than once? Or does it have to hold unique spells?

1/ No rule prohibits duplicating one spell on a scroll.

2/ The random scroll generation system allows for duplicates to be generated.

AFAICT it's legal to make a scroll with any arbitrary number of copies of the same spell, provided you have the means to create the scroll.

[DEMON]

1/ No rule prohibits duplicating one spell on a scroll.

2/ The random scroll generation system allows for duplicates to be generated.

AFAICT it's legal to make a scroll with any arbitrary number of copies of the same spell, provided you have the means to create the scroll.

Thank you.

[Elkad]

Earlier editions restricted you to 7 spells per scroll.
It would be reasonable (but not at all RAW) to put a similar limit on scrolls in this edition.

The rules say a scroll spell is a single page. Put 7 spells on a scroll and roll it to the middle. If you want the first or last one, you have to unroll 3.5 feet to reveal the spell. If your scroll has handles, unrolling it would be quick, but you still need to hold something near 4' long at a comfortable reading distance, while possibly maintaining battlefield awareness.
And what if you are Tiny, or Huge?

If you were a player at my table and tried to put 20 different spells on the same scroll, I'd want to impose an action penalty to find spell#17 while dodging orc axes. (But that makes the game fiddly, so I'd probably just make a smart remark and then let it slide.)
20 identical copies of Grease would be fine of course.

[retaliation08]

Yeah Isee your point. Ill only be using utility OOC spells on scrolls though.

[retaliation08]

Crap, I realized my riding dog gets a feat. Being limitted to Core makes this weird. Dodge, power attack, improved natural armor/attack, endurance? Nothing seems good. Like weapon focus(bite) might be best...

[Eldariel]

Crap, I realized my riding dog gets a feat. Being limitted to Core makes this weird. Dodge, power attack, improved natural armor/attack, endurance? Nothing seems good. Like weapon focus(bite) might be best...

Nothing wrong with a basic feat that improves its basic prowess. Weapon Focus is just fine for instance.