Guidance cantrip

[quark12000]

I've been seeing people say to use this for skill checks. I thought it only worked for ability checks.

[Greywander]

In 5e, almost everything you do falls under one of three labels: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.

Skill checks are a subset of ability checks. In fact, any time the rules call for a skill check, that check is usually listed in the form of "Strength (Athletics)", so it's actually a Strength (ability) check that also adds your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in the Athletics skill.

Hence, Guidance works for skill checks.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

It is what makes it superior to the Resistance cantrip in everyway

[quark12000]

I thought, and have seen it ruled, that it only works for straight ability checks. That's why the spell is written the way it is.

[DarkKnightJin]

I thought, and have seen it ruled, that it only works for straight ability checks. That's why the spell is written the way it is.

No, what GreyWander said is correct.
Ability Checks and Skill Checks are the same thing, just named differently because people coming from older editions are use to calling them Skill Checks.

Guidance works for every d20 roll you make that is not a Saving Throw, or an Attack Roll.

[bid]

I thought, and have seen it ruled, that it only works for straight ability checks. That's why the spell is written the way it is.


In either case, proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill.
Hard to argue against that.

[Greywander]

That's why the spell is written the way it is.
The spell is written that way because skill checks don't exist. I don't believe the phrase "skill check" is ever used in any of the books, and there are an abundance of references where what is clearly a "skill check" is referred to as an ability check.

Case in point, the bard's Jack of All Trades feature allows you to add half your proficiency bonus to ability checks that don't already add your proficiency bonus. How would you add your proficiency bonus to a straight ability check (not a skill check)? In other words, it makes you half-proficient in all skills, but also adds a bonus to things that you can't normally get proficiency in, like Initiative and other straight ability checks.

[quark12000]

Hard to argue against that.

I'm not arguing. I'm just telling you what I thought and how I've seen it ruled.

[Contrast]

How would you add your proficiency bonus to a straight ability check (not a skill check)?

Tool proficiency. That said you are correct :smallbiggrin:

Edit -


I'm not arguing. I'm just telling you what I thought and how I've seen it ruled.

If someone tells you a skill check isn't an ability check, tell them to read the ability check section of the PHB which clearly identifies skill checks as ability checks where you get to add your prof if the DM thinks it is appropriate.

[Davrix]

The spell is written that way because skill checks don't exist. I don't believe the phrase "skill check" is ever used in any of the books, and there are an abundance of references where what is clearly a "skill check" is referred to as an ability check.

Case in point, the bard's Jack of All Trades feature allows you to add half your proficiency bonus to ability checks that don't already add your proficiency bonus. How would you add your proficiency bonus to a straight ability check (not a skill check)? In other words, it makes you half-proficient in all skills, but also adds a bonus to things that you can't normally get proficiency in, like Initiative and other straight ability checks.

Wrathful smite has the monster make a wisdom check not a wisdom save. So the term is used sometimes.

WRATHFUL SMITE
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

The next time you hit with a melee weapon attack during this spell's duration, your attack deals an extra 1d6 psychic damage. Additionally, if the target is a creature, it must make a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of you until the spell ends. As an action, the creature can make a Wisdom check against your spell save DC to steel its resolve and end this spell.

GUIDANCE
Divination canlrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends.

I really guess it depends on how you view the skill system. On one hand its saying a straight check but the ablity checks are the base for the the skills. So an athletics check is a str check per say but that is already giving you proficiency because you are trained in being athletic. So that's a different check on top of the str check. Personally I feel it could be ruled either way depending on the DM

Ah well here we go So yea counts for skills

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/ability-check

Whenever the rules say you’re making a check using one of the six ability scores, you’re making an ability check. This is true whether or not the check involves a skill. A Strength check, a Dexterity check, a Charisma (Persuasion) check, a Wisdom (Perception) check—those are all examples of ability checks.

[Greywander]

Wrathful smite has the monster make a wisdom check not a wisdom save. So the term is used sometimes.
Yes, the books refer to ability checks rather frequently, but they never make mention of skill checks. Wisdom is an ability score, not a skill.

Ability checks in 5e have replaced and/or subsumed skill checks from older editions. A "skill check" is just an ability check where you get to add your proficiency bonus (if you have the right proficiency).

[Davrix]

Yes, the books refer to ability checks rather frequently, but they never make mention of skill checks. Wisdom is an ability score, not a skill.

Ability checks in 5e have replaced and/or subsumed skill checks from older editions. A "skill check" is just an ability check where you get to add your proficiency bonus (if you have the right proficiency).

I realized I had read your wording wrong just after i finished posting :)

However this and the following https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/04/when-a-spell-calls-for-a-spellcasting-ability-check-do-you-add-your-proficiency-bonus/

Gives me plenty of ammo to close an old argument between me and a friend that if a monster has proficiency in a save it does not give them that bonus on the wisdom check portion in wrathful smite.

[Greywander]

I realized I had read your wording wrong just after i finished posting :)

However this and the following https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/04/when-a-spell-calls-for-a-spellcasting-ability-check-do-you-add-your-proficiency-bonus/

Gives me plenty of ammo to close an old argument between me and a friend that if a monster has proficiency in a save it does not give them that bonus on the wisdom check portion in wrathful smite.
Right, ability checks and saving throws are different, and saving throws have their own proficiency. Jack of All Trades would let you add half your proficiency bonus to the Wisdom check from Wrathful Smite, but saving throw proficiency would only help with the initial Wisdom saving throw from the spell. Although I can't help but wonder if there might be a typo there, since the DC of the Wisdom check is your spell save DC, but I just checked the last errata I have and don't see anything there.

[Davrix]

Right, ability checks and saving throws are different, and saving throws have their own proficiency. Jack of All Trades would let you add half your proficiency bonus to the Wisdom check from Wrathful Smite, but saving throw proficiency would only help with the initial Wisdom saving throw from the spell. Although I can't help but wonder if there might be a typo there, since the DC of the Wisdom check is your spell save DC, but I just checked the last errata I have and don't see anything there.

No its not a typo its fully intentional because its a channel spell. Its meant to be difficult to shake after its applied. Because its not something you can spam willy nilly and it only affects one target at a time.

[Contrast]

Right, ability checks and saving throws are different, and saving throws have their own proficiency. Jack of All Trades would let you add half your proficiency bonus to the Wisdom check from Wrathful Smite, but saving throw proficiency would only help with the initial Wisdom saving throw from the spell. Although I can't help but wonder if there might be a typo there, since the DC of the Wisdom check is your spell save DC, but I just checked the last errata I have and don't see anything there.

For reference seeing through illusions requires an action for an intelligence investigation check against spell save DC so its not entirely unique.

[Tubben]

You should not forget, that using Guidance is an action, so in alot cases you cant use Guidance.

A player in my group forget this all the time and adds the D4 dice to his pool (Like in combat, where he wants to do this or that as his action, the DM says, ok, do an Sleight of Hand check, and he wants to add his D4 for Guidance).

[AHF]

You should not forget, that using Guidance is an action, so in alot cases you cant use Guidance.

A player in my group forget this all the time and adds the D4 dice to his pool (Like in combat, where he wants to do this or that as his action, the DM says, ok, do an Sleight of Hand check, and he wants to add his D4 for Guidance).

I think it has a one minute duration though so possible to that once in combat as long as you don't use any concentration spells if you cast it pre-combat.

[DarkKnightJin]

I think it has a one minute duration though so possible to that once in combat as long as you don't use any concentration spells if you cast it pre-combat.

When I first got to enjoy the goodness that is Guidance, I went overboard with it as well.
After a session of that, I have calmed myself, and ask if my Cleric would have time to cast Guidance before I add the d4 to my roll. I will also give another player a pat on the shoulder if I'm casting Guidance on them, as a shorthand for doing so.
But, again, only if it makes sense in the narrative that they could get the benefits from doing such.
And my character being within range, of course.

[strangebloke]

When I first got to enjoy the goodness that is Guidance, I went overboard with it as well.
After a session of that, I have calmed myself, and ask if my Cleric would have time to cast Guidance before I add the d4 to my roll. I will also give another player a pat on the shoulder if I'm casting Guidance on them, as a shorthand for doing so.
But, again, only if it makes sense in the narrative that they could get the benefits from doing such.
And my character being within range, of course.

I roll it like this:
My character is constantly muttering prayers to his god for guidance, being as he's a shell-shocked kid with extreme paranoia. Usually, he casts on himself in case he gets into combat. If he sees someone doing something though, he'll cast on them, in case something goes wrong.

Obviously, the limitations to guidance are range, time, and concentration.

[DarkKnightJin]

I roll it like this:
My character is constantly muttering prayers to his god for guidance, being as he's a shell-shocked kid with extreme paranoia. Usually, he casts on himself in case he gets into combat. If he sees someone doing something though, he'll cast on them, in case something goes wrong.

Obviously, the limitations to guidance are range, time, and concentration.

My guy is a former soldier turned Cleric, but he's not paranoid like that. If we're about to pounce on someone for a fight, I'll precast it for my Initiative.
If we get pounced.. Sorry, no time to mechanically ask your god for help.

[strangebloke]

My guy is a former soldier turned Cleric, but he's not paranoid like that. If we're about to pounce on someone for a fight, I'll precast it for my Initiative.
If we get pounced.. Sorry, no time to mechanically ask your god for help.

To be clear, it isn't all the time. But if we're delving into an enemy fortress? Yeah, you better believe he's going to be on his toes.

[Tubben]

To be clear, it isn't all the time. But if we're delving into an enemy fortress? Yeah, you better believe he's going to be on his toes.

So, you utter every minute a verbal & somatic spell to have the aid of your god if you are in an enemy fortress ? Maybe while stealthing to be unseen by the enemies ?

I would probably let the guards roll perception in like 30-60f distance.

[Willie the Duck]

So, you utter every minute a voice & somatic spell to have the aid of your god if you are in an enemy fortress ? Maybe while stealthing to be unseen by the enemies ?

You are correct. Situations where the V,S components would be a problem are a practical limitation on the spell (also why it rarely works for deception checks). Whether or not your playstyle allows a player to recast a spell every tenth round while out of combat... that's really just a playstyle DM thing. I don't think it would ever fly in my groups, but that's just us.

[Beelzebubba]

To be clear, it isn't all the time. But if we're delving into an enemy fortress? Yeah, you better believe he's going to be on his toes.

It's so tiresome when players try to be such munchkins about spells like this.

[strangebloke]

So, you utter every minute a verbal & somatic spell to have the aid of your god if you are in an enemy fortress ? Maybe while stealthing to be unseen by the enemies ?

I would probably let the guards roll perception in like 30-60f distance.
Fair, but remember, it's only once every minute. Most aspects of a dungeon crawl go by pretty fast in character, whether walking or fighting. If I make a stealth check and then enter combat, I clearly didn't cast guidance while I was hidden, so I can't use it on initiative.

Dungeon crawls are pretty methodical, surgical affairs. There's usually a clear safe space (where guidance can be cast) an uncertain/unscouted area, and areas that are either unknown or filled with enemies. If the scout says there's baddies ahead I'll quit casting it.

It's so tiresome when players try to be such munchkins about spells like this.
Why?

My character is risking his life. He's a holy warrior blessed by his god, and while he's accepted some risks as inherent to the job, he's also going to try to mitigate everything he possibly can. A mistake could cost him everything, or at the very least could cost him a friend. Of course he's going to be praying to the god that he serves at every possible opportunity.

Think of the extensive training that soldiers go through and all of the expensive equipment they're fielded with. Huge portions of their kit and training probably never go into use, but they still carry it and use it, just in case. Most DND characters are essentially spec ops who have extremely dangerous jobs.

[sir_argo]

When I first got to enjoy the goodness that is Guidance, I went overboard with it as well.
After a session of that, I have calmed myself, and ask if my Cleric would have time to cast Guidance before I add the d4 to my roll. I will also give another player a pat on the shoulder if I'm casting Guidance on them, as a shorthand for doing so.
But, again, only if it makes sense in the narrative that they could get the benefits from doing such.
And my character being within range, of course.

My group uses Roll20, and I literally click the button when I cast Guidance. It spits output to the chat log and let's the DM know. I'm about 50/50 on having guidance up for any unforseen ability check that occurs.

[strangebloke]

You are correct. Situations where the V,S components would be a problem are a practical limitation on the spell (also why it rarely works for deception checks). Whether or not your playstyle allows a player to recast a spell every tenth round while out of combat... that's really just a playstyle DM thing. I don't think it would ever fly in my groups, but that's just us.

To be fair, most of the time checks (including initiative) are initiated by the party. Unforseen checks I try to be a bit more circumspect about.

[Greywander]

Don't forget that Guidance uses concentration.

It's a really good cantrip that lets you add 1d4 to all ability checks for your whole party when:
The party member being buffed is in touch range. Better not split the party.
You can afford to spend an action casting the spell. So, not in combat.
You're not concentrating on anything more important. Like Fly, or Invisibility.
You won't get into trouble if someone notices you casting the spell. So probably not for social checks, or while sneaking.

Since it only lasts for 1 minute, you don't have a lot of room to cast it ahead of time if you think you'll find yourself in a situation where you can't cast it and might need it.

It's good, but it shouldn't be taken for granted that you can always add 1d4 to all ability checks if you have someone in the party with this spell. It's definitely one of the first cantrips I'd grab if I was playing or dipping into cleric or druid, but the concentration requirement in particular might limit how often it actually sees use.

[Willie the Duck]

It is definitely one of the most useful cantrips around, despite obvious limitations (and frankly, any at-will spell like this without significant limitations would be very quickly labeled overpowered).

[Contrast]

You won't get into trouble if someone notices you casting the spell. So probably not for social checks, or while sneaking.

Since it only lasts for 1 minute, you don't have a lot of room to cast it ahead of time if you think you'll find yourself in a situation where you can't cast it and might need it.

In fairness the spell is a lot less suspicious that most 'social' spells in that doing a quick prayer asking for the blessing of your god isn't likely to get most peoples hackles up. That said as you say if you're trying to negotiate a deal over half an hour, having your friend standing in the background mumbling to themselves and waving their arms is probably going to do more harm than good (i.e. sure you get your +1d4...now make the roll at disadvantage).

[Tubben]

Don't forget that Guidance uses concentration.

It's a really good cantrip that lets you add 1d4 to all ability checks for your whole party when:
The party member being buffed is in touch range. Better not split the party.
You can afford to spend an action casting the spell. So, not in combat.


If you want to use it on others (your Group), you have to count 2 actions per Guidance. You need to do Guidance on the target, then the target needs to do his action. After that you can do the next Guidance. That cant be done on the same time.

[Hesh]

In fairness the spell is a lot less suspicious that most 'social' spells in that doing a quick prayer asking for the blessing of your god isn't likely to get most peoples hackles up. That said as you say if you're trying to negotiate a deal over half an hour, having your friend standing in the background mumbling to themselves and waving their arms is probably going to do more harm than good (i.e. sure you get your +1d4...now make the roll at disadvantage).

I am one with the force, and the force is with me...

[strangebloke]

If you want to use it on others (your Group), you have to count 2 actions per Guidance. You need to do Guidance on the target, then the target needs to do his action. After that you can do the next Guidance. That cant be done on the same time.
Right. I usually roll it like. "Hold on, before you go in there..." *places hand on companion* "May Kelemvor Guide you."

I am one with the force, and the force is with me...
Exactly. Having a mantra is a staple for a hyper-religious character.

[Captn_Flounder]

The V, S components are intentionally vague in 5e. When my Dwarf Cleric casts guidance he just puts his hand on the shoulder of his ally and lightly whispers "Go get 'em, tiger." Something more religious would do for Clerics who worship more openly, but you wouldn't just flail your arms and wail "Woogity Boogity!"

Arcane casters draw more suspicion casting, in my campaigns, in social situations since they use incantations and specific hand gestures. Clerics just have to utter a prayer and their God does the heavy lifting.

But really, V, S, M mainly exist so you have a way to control captured Spell Casters. Rule it however you wish. I see no problem with whispering a prayer once a minute under your breath. You only have to say it loud enough for your God to hear.

[sir_argo]

Right. I usually roll it like. "Hold on, before you go in there..." *places hand on companion* "May Kelemvor Guide you."

I'm currently playing a trickster cleric. "Hold on, before you go in there..." *places hand on companion* "I just wiped a booger off on your back."

[Contrast]

But really, V, S, M mainly exist so you have a way to control captured Spell Casters. Rule it however you wish. I see no problem with whispering a prayer once a minute under your breath. You only have to say it loud enough for your God to hear.

For reference the verbal component must be spoken audibly (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/17/audible-verbal-component/). Exactly what that means is up to your DM but I wouldn't count on a whisper being acceptable.