Dear God Please Help Me: A player and DM familiar only with 5e is trying to get 3.5

[Silkensword]

What it says on the can. Can people who have had the same experience as me tell me what helped them personally? I find a lot of guides seem to be from the perspective of well meaning, but ultimately not super helpful people who started off with 3.5! Thankyou!

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, first things first, what is, specifically, your problem? You need to be rather specific or we won't be able to help

[Troacctid]

It's different. It has different rules and different math and lots of books and the player options aren't balanced against each other. It's also older and harder to learn.

[PacMan2247]

Ok, first things first, what is, specifically, your problem? You need to be rather specific or we won't be able to help

This, for a start. If you don't have something specific, the best thing you can probably do is go into it assuming it's a completely different system. Limit yourselves to the three Core rulebooks until you're more comfortable. I've read the 5E Player's Handbook, but haven't been convinced to leave 3.5, so I'm short on practical experience to offer suggestions on.

[retaliation08]

What is your reasoning for trying 3.5?

3.5 is a very interesting system, but it is quite complicated by comparison to 5e even when limitted to the core books. There is no quick fix to get 3.5 to click. It will likely take months to years of reading and practice to be comfortable with.

If that seems unappealing, maybe 5e is more your jam.

My advice would be to find a level 1 module and play it. If it is just you and your buddy, let him play multiple characters and have a DMPC or two. It might get kinda meta with the two of you teaming up against the module, but your goal is learning the system more than story or immersion.

[Darrin]

The "Core" idea behind 3rd edition was the designers unified the resolution mechanic to "Roll a d20, then add something to it. High numbers are good, low numbers are bad." To understand why this is revolutionary, you have to play some 2nd edition, which inherited a lot of legacy resolution mechanics from 1st edition and was therefore still something of a confusing hodgepodge.

Where 3E differs most significantly from 5E is the "add something to it" part. In 3E, there are attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws, and skill checks, and you add your ability score modifier just like 5E. However, each kind of check is something of it's own subsystem, and there are additional modifiers you add to that d20 roll that increase at different rates depending on your class levels.

There are three different rates for attack bonus, for example: Fighters get an attack bonus that scales up from +1 to +20 over 20 levels. Wizards get exactly half that attack bonus, +0 to +10 over 20 levels, and everything else (Clerics and Rogues) get 3/4ths that attack bonus over 20 levels, +0 to +15. 5E has condensed this into a proficiency bonus that scales up from +2 to +6. Another big difference is in 3E, all melee attacks use Strength, and all ranged attacks use Dexterity. If you want to use Dexterity for melee attacks, you have to pay for it by taking a feat (Weapon Finesse). Also, if you have a Dexterity-based weapon, you don't get Dexterity added to your damage without jumping through several hoops. 5E simplified this whole Strength/Dexterity thing considerably.

Feat system in 3E is more fiddly, and it's almost *mandatory* to pick good feats while somehow avoiding a metric buttload of bad feats. Picking bad feats that don't actually help your character can be *crippling* in 3E. In 5E, feats are optional, and in most cases are essentially two to four 3E feats combined into a single 5E feat. This helps ensure that the 5E feat is mostly useful and beneficial. 5E has mostly removed feats as "gatekeepers" to prestige classes or more powerful feats.

For saving throws, there are only three, based on Constitution (things that affect your health), Dexterity (things you can dodge), and Willpower (things that affect your mind). Your three save bonuses are based on your class, and they can either increase quickly (your "good" saves) or increase slowly (your "bad" saves). Which classes are good at which saves is somewhat arbitrary, but it boils down to fighter types are good and shrugging off physical effects, rogues are good at avoiding area attacks, and spellcasters are good at shrugging off mental effects. 5E for some reason went with six different saving throws, but condenses the 3E good/bad saves into "you get your proficiency bonus on two different ability saves".

The skill system in 3E is essentially a mini-game where you get a certain amount of skill points at every level, but some skills are more useful than others, and it gets exceedingly complicated very quickly once you start adding in all the modifiers from your feats, racial abilities, class abilities, etc. If you're willing to spend the time, you can manipulate a bunch of minor +1/+2 bonuses into an obscenely huge modifier that either does something nearly useless (I'm looking at you, Decipher Script) or something extraordinarily unrealistic (squeezing *through* a wall of force, let's say). 5E's skill system does away with all the fiddly bits and locks down most of the skill system with a simpler "add your ability score, and maybe your proficiency bonus". 5E's goal of "bounded accuracy" is most evident here, as the skill check results is still very "swingy" (horrible failure and outstanding success can happen regardless of your actual skill level) at both the lower levels and higher levels.

Another way to put it: Imagine you took 5E's proficiency bonus, which scales up from +2 to +6 over 20 levels, and expanded that into a bonus that went from +0 to +20, and was broken up into several different categories: attacking, saving throws, and skill checks. Only you get 1/2 or 3/4 of that bonus in certain categories. And then you took 5E's feats, which offer 2-4 different abilities, and split all those individual abilities into individual feats. Oh, and 95% of those feats were nearly useless or sometimes gave you a +2 bonus on a roll maybe once every 3 months of play.

Another way to put it: Imagine you took one of the basic resolution mechanics of 5E, and turned it into a minigame where every character level you advance, you have to align your racial abilities, class abilities, skill points, feats, and magic items so that whenever you roll a d20, you're getting the highest possible modifier. All those decisions have to be mapped out beforehand over 20 levels, and essentially you spend most of your table-time trying to figure out how to combine all these wonky little +1/+2 bonuses into bigger and higher rolls.

What 5E did was take all those mini-games and attempted to consolidate them into a somewhat simpler mechanic: "Roll a d20, and add whatever ability score bonus is relevant. If it's something your class is particularly good at, add your proficiency bonus." Whenever a 3E player starts blubbering about "What about weapon sizes? And what about synergy bonuses? Or masterwork bonuses?", 5E yells at the player to shut up about all his fiddly little +1/+2 crap and roll the frickin' dice already!

Of course, you don't have to play 3E that way with all the "fiddly bits" sliders dialed up to 11. If all the players are casual about it, and the DM is good at keeping the game moving, then a good portion of 3E/5E is going to play the same way.

[RoboEmperor]

Play neverwinter nights 1 or 2.

Or play Dungeon and Dragons Tactics on the PSP or PSP Emulator

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Well firstly, I'd suggest getting into Pathfinder instead, since it's based on and very similar to D&D 3.5, but all the rules and content are available online legally for free here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com).

Secondly, while 3.5/PF are more number-heavy and complex than 5e, I think you're psyching yourself out a bit. Many concepts are shared, just renamed and tweaked. I'll go over a few of these (this is for Pathfinder, mind):

Rather than a blanket "proficiency" bonus, you have

Base Attack Bonus: Classes either have Good (Equal to class level, +20 at 20th), Average (3/4 class level, +15 at 20th), or Poor (1/2 class level, +10 at 20th) and add their total bonus to all attack and combat maneuver (grapple/trip/etc) rolls.
Base Save Bonuses: There are only three ability scores with saves attached in PF (Fortitude/CON, Reflex/DEX, and Will/WIS), and classes either have Good (1/2 class level, +2 at level 1) or Poor (1/3 class level) bonuses to them. Like BAB, these stack fractionally, rounding down, so a Rogue 3 (Good Reflex, bad Fort/Will) who takes two levels of Fighter (Good Fortitude, bad Reflex/Will) would have +2/+4/+1 base saves to a pure level 5 Rogue's +1/+4/+1
Class Skills: This isn't a scaling bonus, but skill points vs Proficiency is a big change. You get skill points each level based on what class you took a level in and invest them in skills, up to a maximum number of points in any given skill equal to your character level, then add the associated ability score modifier and any miscellaneous bonuses to get your total skill bonus. If a skill is a "class skill," having any points at all in it gives you a flat +3 bonus on top of everything else.


​Character creation is similar, but instead of picking a Background that gives you skills and equipment, you pick two Traits that give you minor bonuses and abilities (think of them as half a feat) and get Starting Gold from your first class. You can also trade your starting gold for the Well-Provisioned Adventurer trait, which gives you one of several pre-built kits of gear based on themes like "Daring Bravo" and "Arcane Adept." Otherwise, pick a class (and archetype if you want one), pick a starting Feat (or two, if you're Human), invest your skill points, and get to rolling!
Swift (Bonus) Actions and Standard Actions are pretty much the same, but Move Actions and Full-Round Actions might require some explaining. Move Actions are how you move, and you can't by default attack while doing so, though certain feats allow you to. If an ability costs a Move Action, you'll need to spend your Standard to move! Full-Round just means it uses up your Standard+Move in one go. Immediate Actions are just Reactions with a clunkier name.
Remember, the numbers get way higher, way faster in this game. Having a 20 in an ability score isn't ridiculous and there's no actual cap on how high they can go, especially once item bonuses show up (though I would definitely recommend using the Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/) rules if you want to keep magic items rare and wondrous instead of required stat buffs, since 3.5/PF expects certain bonuses by certain levels).


If you need anything else, or more specific advice, just ask!

[Epic Legand]

I felt that Darin gave a nice overview, except he slanted it towards 5E. Another way to put it is there is vastly more choices in 3E, thus a better chance to custom tailor the exact character you want, BUT, with many bad choices that sit along side good ones. Due to the size of 3.5, lerning it may be daunting. Also, like any system with more choices, the larger it gets, the better one can optimize for a particular build. You can get a race good at fire magic, pick feats good at fire magic, pick classes , magic items ect ect. Of course, fire is only one of a million choices. When they killed off 3.5, and introduced 4th, all classes were balanced, and also very similar, and boring. It was hated. 5th was a step between the two. Far less complex then 3.5, a bit more then 4th. Ease of learning is also a big factor. The 5th edition is simpler, thus faster, thus easier to learn. Not a crime, some people don't want to spend forever looking over 30 different sub races of elfs for example, other people like the diversity, and so preferred 3.5. Pathfinder is a direct evolution of 3.5, with some minor rules changes. Most tables that play one, allow some content from the other. After 9 years, Pathfinder is finally looking to make a new edition, One I suspect that will move closer to 5th. If it does, I can still play 3.5 or PF1. The choice will be driven by the need to sell some new books, and the fact that 5th is selling VERY well. I don't blame them for needing to sell some more books, or for following a trend that results in more sales. I suspect the new direction will not be one I like, but I feel I need to see a lot more before deciding. 3.5 is the most established game system ever developed, with more content then any other system. Pathfinder 1.0 is not that far behind, when you consider all the quality 3party material as well. Grab the core players, and DM...read THROUGHLY, and try it a bit.

[Endarire]

+1 regarding Darrin's explanation.

The best video game analog for 3.5 is Temple of Elemental Evil (https://www.gog.com/forum/temple_of_elemental_evil/temple_of_elemental_evil_toee_mod_installation_gui de_co8_portraits_temple) with relevant mods (https://www.gog.com/forum/temple_of_elemental_evil/temple_of_elemental_evil_toee_mod_installation_gui de_co8_portraits_temple) installed for maximum enjoyability!

[Karl Aegis]

We got psionics in 3.5. Shoot crystals at doodads and get some gauntlets of bear affinity instead of ye olde gauntlets of ogre strength. Oh, and 3.5e generally has more magic items than 5e to the point that you want as much as you can carry.