Trading Thieves' tools for another tool proficiency

[Theodoxus]

As a DM, would you allow a rogue player, at 1st level, before play took place, to trade their Thieves' tools proficiency for another tool? I'm building a "knowledge" based character whose first level is Rogue with the Sage background, but would rather be the party mapper than party trapspringer.

I'd still have thieves' tools, just not the proficiency to go with them, trading it for cartographers' tools.

I don't see anything particularly broken about it, but I might be missing something intrinsic. I understand the implication, if the party knows I'm a rogue, why can't I pick locks - well, I can - just not well. Though again, the character concept is less rogue and more sage - with expertise in Arcana and History, picking up a level of Knowledge cleric at 2nd level for expertise in Nature and Religion, and finally grabbing a level in bard (we're playing Sunless Citadel, so probably not going beyond 3rd level) for another skill.

[Blood of Gaea]

It's basically a downgrade of mechanics in exchange for flavor. I would allow it. Have you considered getting a feat for skills rather than taking Bard? Bard isn't a bad class, but you'll be stretching yourself pretty thing by taking three different classes so early on.

[Unoriginal]

As a DM, would you allow a rogue player, at 1st level, before play took place, to trade their Thieves' tools proficiency for another tool? I'm building a "knowledge" based character whose first level is Rogue with the Sage background, but would rather be the party mapper than party trapspringer.

I'd still have thieves' tools, just not the proficiency to go with them, trading it for cartographers' tools.

I don't see anything particularly broken about it, but I might be missing something intrinsic. I understand the implication, if the party knows I'm a rogue, why can't I pick locks - well, I can - just not well. Though again, the character concept is less rogue and more sage - with expertise in Arcana and History, picking up a level of Knowledge cleric at 2nd level for expertise in Nature and Religion, and finally grabbing a level in bard (we're playing Sunless Citadel, so probably not going beyond 3rd level) for another skill.

You can't pick locks without the proficiency, Theodoxus.

Having the tools without the proficiency is useless. I'd give you a set of cartographer's tools if you wanted to swap the proficiency.

[Blood of Gaea]

You can't pick locks without the proficiency, Theodoxus.

Having the tools without the proficiency is useless. I'd give you a set of cartographer's tools if you wanted to swap the proficiency.
You can attempt a skill without having proficiency, it just means it's a pure dex roll.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You can't pick locks without the proficiency, Theodoxus.

I couldn't find anything that says you can't make the attempt without being proficient in the tools. Picking locks is listed in the PHB as a general dexterity check, Proficiency simply allows you to do it more effectively.

The way I see tools and instrument proficiencies is as an even more specific subset of general skill sets.

Perhaps when the game was designed they didn't want people proficient in performance to suddenly be a master at every instrument or for someone wanting to roleplay a character not skilled at picking pockets but definitely skilled in breaking locks to be forced to take one of their more valuable skill proficiencies in a skill they're not interested in. It might even just have been to simplify skill checks to not have to reference too many skills.

I believe my reasoning is backed up when you compare 5e to 3.5e skills, which shows how many diverse skill sets were compacted and some more career/background based skills were made into tool proficiencies.

[Theodoxus]

You can't pick locks without the proficiency, Theodoxus.

Having the tools without the proficiency is useless.


You can attempt a skill without having proficiency, it just means it's a pure dex roll.

Exactly. All tools do is provide an alternate 'skill' to use an ability check on - after all, that's all skills are - ability checks, they just happen to have special names, but don't require it.

"Give me a Dex check with proficiency" is just as valid for stealth as "give me a stealth check" - it's just more words.

You can attempt an Animal Handling check in place of Land Vehicle proficiency, provided you have a cart, wagon or other "land vehicle". You can't replace Animal Handling with Land Vehicles to try to placate a wild wolf... (unless said wolf is standing on your chariot :smallwink:)

[JackPhoenix]

You can attempt a skill without having proficiency, it just means it's a pure dex roll.

Opening locks is specifically called as requiring tool proficiency to attempt. Crafting also has proficiency in the tool as requirement. It seems there's a difference between straight ability checks and tool use.

[Unoriginal]

You can attempt a skill without having proficiency, it just means it's a pure dex roll.


I couldn't find anything that says you can't make the attempt without being proficient in the tools. Picking locks is listed in the PHB as a general dexterity check, Proficiency simply allows you to do it more effectively.

The way I see tools and instrument proficiencies is as an even more specific subset of general skill sets.

Perhaps when the game was designed they didn't want people proficient in performance to suddenly be a master at every instrument or for someone wanting to roleplay a character not skilled at picking pockets but definitely skilled in breaking locks to be forced to take one of their more valuable skill proficiencies in a skill they're not interested in. It might even just have been to simplify skill checks to not have to reference too many skills.

I believe my reasoning is backed up when you compare 5e to 3.5e skills, which shows how many diverse skill sets were compacted and some more career/background based skills were made into tool proficiencies.


Exactly. All tools do is provide an alternate 'skill' to use an ability check on - after all, that's all skills are - ability checks, they just happen to have special names, but don't require it.

"Give me a Dex check with proficiency" is just as valid for stealth as "give me a stealth check" - it's just more words.

You can attempt an Animal Handling check in place of Land Vehicle proficiency, provided you have a cart, wagon or other "land vehicle". You can't replace Animal Handling with Land Vehicles to try to placate a wild wolf... (unless said wolf is standing on your chariot :smallwink:)





Sorry to say, but on the subject of lockpicking you are wrong:


Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check.


Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick the manacles' lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check.

PHB p.152


For example, trying lo open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools

PHB p.175



Picking locks REQUIRES proficiency with thieves' tools. It's one of the few instances where the proficiency is required for the attempt.

[Theodoxus]

Well, that's pretty cherry picking to make your point. Here's an excellent breakdown that attempts to derive everything that's written regarding thieves' tools and proficiency:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/50850/do-you-have-to-have-thieves-tools-in-order-to-pick-a-lock

[JackPhoenix]

Well, that's pretty cherry picking to make your point. Here's an excellent breakdown that attempts to derive everything that's written regarding thieves' tools and proficiency:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/50850/do-you-have-to-have-thieves-tools-in-order-to-pick-a-lock

"The rules says here and here you need to be proficient to pick a lock"
"Must be an error from playtest version of the rules!"

Who's cherry picking now?

[Unoriginal]

Well, that's pretty cherry picking to make your point.

No. It's not cherry picking, it's quoting the rule that deal with the question.



Here's an excellent breakdown that attempts to derive everything that's written regarding thieves' tools and proficiency:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/50850/do-you-have-to-have-thieves-tools-in-order-to-pick-a-lock

This "breakdown" ignores explicit rules to make the situation seems more nuanced than it is.

As the "breakdown" itself quotes:


Characters who don't have the key for a locked door can pick the lock with a successful Dexterity check (doing so requires thieves' tools and proficiency in their use).

-DMG p.103

Picking a lock requires proficiency in thieves' tool.

Disarming a trap may or not require thieves' tool, and not having thieves' tool may or may not give disadvantage.

Your DM can change that if they want, but the rules about locks are clear.

[MxKit]

Yeah, I'd allow it, and I'd allow you to start with cartographers' tools instead of thieves' tools as well. It's not an upgrade, it's at best a sidegrade, which is fine. It could even be called a downgrade, since IIRC you can attempt cartography without being proficient in cartographers' tools, but the same is not true for lockpicking without being proficient in thieves' tools, and you can't apply your Expertise to cartographers' tools.

[Blood of Gaea]

I stand corrected. I had been reading the description of Thieves' Tools on page 154 of the PHB:


Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks.

[Kane0]

Sure, why not. In my experience tools that aren't Thieves tools could use some more time in the spotlight.

[Theodoxus]

Yeah, I'd allow it, and I'd allow you to start with cartographers' tools instead of thieves' tools as well. It's not an upgrade, it's at best a sidegrade, which is fine. It could even be called a downgrade, since IIRC you can attempt cartography without being proficient in cartographers' tools, but the same is not true for lockpicking without being proficient in thieves' tools, and you can't apply your Expertise to cartographers' tools.

Hmm... that's got me thinking in another direction...

What would you roll Cartography Tools for? To check against the DMs map for accuracy? Perhaps to determine if your map should start in the middle of the paper, or in one of the ordinal corners? As a DM, if I had time/inclination, I could see making a number of maps, or partial maps, for the group cartographer, granting more detail for higher rolls... though that probably just encourages going back to cover low rolls for accuracy.

[Tanarii]

What would you roll Cartography Tools for?
XtGE adds some stuff.

For starters you can map while traveling engage in a second activity (Foragin, Navigating, Tracking). I'd interpret that to also mean retaining your passive perception to notice threats as "engaging in other activity" if you don't do anything else.

Also lets you make DC checks to determine a maps age/origin (DC 10), estimate direction and distance to a landmark (DC 15), discern if a map is a fake (DC 15), and fill in a missing part of a map (DC 20).

It also describes some added benefits for Arcana, History, Religion, Nature and Survival checks if you are also proficient in those skills as well as Cartographer's tools.

[Crgaston]

As a DM, would you allow a rogue player, at 1st level, before play took place, to trade their Thieves' tools proficiency for another tool? I'm building a "knowledge" based character whose first level is Rogue with the Sage background, but would rather be the party mapper than party trapspringer.

I'd still have thieves' tools, just not the proficiency to go with them, trading it for cartographers' tools.

I don't see anything particularly broken about it, but I might be missing something intrinsic. I understand the implication, if the party knows I'm a rogue, why can't I pick locks - well, I can - just not well. Though again, the character concept is less rogue and more sage - with expertise in Arcana and History, picking up a level of Knowledge cleric at 2nd level for expertise in Nature and Religion, and finally grabbing a level in bard (we're playing Sunless Citadel, so probably not going beyond 3rd level) for another skill.

Maybe see if you can't trade a language for the Cartographer's tools instead?

[Blood of Gaea]

Picking up the Skilled or Prodigy feats would be a good way to do this as well. Prodigy also grants you an expertise, which is pretty awesome.

[JackPhoenix]

You can also just customize your background and take cartographer's tools instead of one of the two languages sage gets

[Azedenkae]

As a DM, I tend to prefer things to be done as per RAW. However, when one wants to make minor variations that would better fit their character, I'd allow it. In your case, I'd allow it. I don't see a problem with the switch, although it would majorly change the 'feel' of the class. Nonetheless, classes are more of a mechanic thing, than a roleplay thing, for the most part.

I have not seen a single cleric in any of my parties act like a worshiper of some god. They're all literally just healbots.

[Theodoxus]

I have not seen a single cleric in any of my parties act like a worshiper of some god. They're all literally just healbots.

That's sad. Even my Life Clerics aren't just healbots... My current cleric in a Curse of Strahd game genuinely believes all gods are Moradin, and proselytizes as such. He is adamant in his faith, and quite accepting of others of theirs, because even if they use a different name, they all worship the same god, just a different aspect.

The funny thing is, he's actually a follower of Lathander, but calls him Moradin, because all gods are Moradin.

[Azedenkae]

That's sad. Even my Life Clerics aren't just healbots... My current cleric in a Curse of Strahd game genuinely believes all gods are Moradin, and proselytizes as such. He is adamant in his faith, and quite accepting of others of theirs, because even if they use a different name, they all worship the same god, just a different aspect.

The funny thing is, he's actually a follower of Lathander, but calls him Moradin, because all gods are Moradin.

Lmao, that’s gold. Yeah it is kinda sad re: Cleric. My players just don’t like to play healers, and can really get into characters for any other class. >_< Clerics are actually really cool tho! Especially with the connection to a deity. I tend to actually give all my players who worship deities (who’s actions actually reflect the worshiping) minor boons. Deities are such a huge part of the Forgotten Realms, I really want to see them be a bigger focus.

[Luccan]

That's sad. Even my Life Clerics aren't just healbots... My current cleric in a Curse of Strahd game genuinely believes all gods are Moradin, and proselytizes as such. He is adamant in his faith, and quite accepting of others of theirs, because even if they use a different name, they all worship the same god, just a different aspect.

The funny thing is, he's actually a follower of Lathander, but calls him Moradin, because all gods are Moradin.

Interesting.

Even Gruumsh? 'Cuz Lathander might be letting being called Moradin slide, but Moradin might not appreciate the insistence that he is also all those deities of Evil and murder.

[Theodoxus]

Interesting.

Even Gruumsh? 'Cuz Lathander might be letting being called Moradin slide, but Moradin might not appreciate the insistence that he is also all those deities of Evil and murder.

Dunno. Haven't run into other clerics yet. A ton of druids, but they've all drunk the kool-aid (the party is legitimately convinced Strahd is just an archdruid - able to assume all kinds of animal forms) so druids are KOS. We haven't actually gotten around to keeping a druid alive long enough to question who they worship - if anyone.

I suspect my cleric would be able to rationalize Evil/Murder gods as an aspect of Moradin's wrath...

[Azedenkae]

Dunno. Haven't run into other clerics yet. A ton of druids, but they've all drunk the kool-aid (the party is legitimately convinced Strahd is just an archdruid - able to assume all kinds of animal forms) so druids are KOS. We haven't actually gotten around to keeping a druid alive long enough to question who they worship - if anyone.

I suspect my cleric would be able to rationalize Evil/Murder gods as an aspect of Moradin's wrath...

I think Luccan was more referring to Moradin himself, because when one receives a prayer, they know the exact situation. So the cleric might be able to rationalize it, but Moradin himself might not be very happy... at all.

[Luccan]

I think Luccan was more referring to Moradin himself, because when one receives a prayer, they know the exact situation. So the cleric might be able to rationalize it, but Moradin himself might not be very happy... at all.

Maybe not due for a smiting, just a very stern talking to from a planetar. Of course, they're in Ravenloft, so he might be ok for now. I'm not really sure how much jurisdiction the normal gods get there. Regardless how it turns out though, I really like the idea of a cleric who believes that. All sorts of fun ways to make that a hook.

[Azedenkae]

Maybe not due for a smiting, just a very stern talking to from a planetar. Of course, they're in Ravenloft, so he might be ok for now. I'm not really sure how much jurisdiction the normal gods get there. Regardless how it turns out though, I really like the idea of a cleric who believes that. All sorts of fun ways to make that a hook.

Haha yeah. And if he plays it out well I am more inclined to ‘reward’ him somehow than punish him.

That’s always the hardest part. Somehow rewarding a character for being played right, even when the character is doing something ‘wrong’. :P

[Tanarii]

You can also just customize your background and take cartographer's tools instead of one of the two languages sage gets
Yeah. Customizing a sage language for non-labor tools is one of the few times the "pick whatever you want" customization option makes some real sense. But Cartographer's, Navigator's and especially Alchemist's are particularly good fits IMO.

[Christian]

Yeah. Customizing a sage language for non-labor tools is one of the few times the "pick whatever you want" customization option makes some real sense. But Cartographer's, Navigator's and especially Alchemist's are particularly good fits IMO.

And Calligrapher's tools, I'd say.