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View Full Version : DM Help How to affect a PC without taking away player agency



OdinTGE
2018-03-12, 01:59 PM
The primary "thing" in my campaign/world is that the world has been without magic for well over a thousand years. Nobody on the material plane knows how or why this happened but whatever happened seems to be ending; magic is returning. As this process is happening things are going to get a bit troublesome in the world (rifts opening to other planes, wild magic, etc.).

One of my PCs is a stone sorcerer. In my world his power comes from the fact that the Earth Primordial is imprisoned beneath Moradin's mountain in the Astral Plane and he (Moradin) is siphoning off a bit of the Primordial's Power to give to the PC. This is entirely without the PC's (or the Player's) knowledge. He just has these powers and doesn't know how or why.

The actual point of my post: As things really start to kick off in the world with all this magical and planar shenanigans I'd like the stone sorcerer to start feeling the effects of essentially being linked to this ancient beyond imagining, insanely powerful, incredibly pissed off primordial. So the first step is dreams/visions relating to the Primordial etc.; that's easy. I want to have it actually impact the character though. This character is clearly good aligned with a bit of a lawful leaning. The primordial is...not those things, not at all. So how can I impact the PC without it feeling like I'm just attaching an anchor to the player and saying "sucks to be you, champ!"

JNAProductions
2018-03-12, 02:42 PM
Talk to them OOC, and let them know. In fact, outright ask "Hey, I plan on doing this cool thing. Are you okay with that?"

If they are, fantastic! Hash out details with them.

If they aren't, don't force it on them. That wouldn't be fun for them.

Now, if I were the player, I'd be okay with this. It sounds cool, and (just assuming here, but I'd guess the player has more experience with you than I do) you're probably a good DM, so I'd feel comfortable trusting you to do this.

Thrudd
2018-03-12, 02:44 PM
What are you asking, exactly? You can describe things the character senses, like dreams or feelings or messages they receive from somewhere, those would not be taking away anything from the player. If you want the character to actually act differently than the player thinks they should act, that is out of your jurisdiction. It is not your role to determine if a character should have some kind of change in personality. You might discuss with the player if they want to portray the character as starting to act more erratically because of this power you're describing, but to me that feels contrived and rather pointless. But that is really the only option I see for having the character act differently.

OdinTGE
2018-03-12, 02:56 PM
Talk to them OOC, and let them know. In fact, outright ask "Hey, I plan on doing this cool thing. Are you okay with that?"

It's a decent idea, but the issue is that my players have serious issues when it comes to keeping the meta out of their actions. If I've let the players know something the characters aren't supposed to know they tend to just charge on with that knowledge taken as a given.


If you want the character to actually act differently than the player thinks they should act, that is out of your jurisdiction. It is not your role to determine if a character should have some kind of change in personality.

Charm, Fear, etc. are effects imposed by NPCs and the world (ie the GM) that alter how PCs act. Cursed items with and without sentience are also commonly affect PC behavior, sometimes offering a saving throw to fight the influence. Outright saying "the GM can never influence a PC" is just silly.


You might discuss with the player if they want to portray the character as starting to act more erratically because of this power you're describing, but to me that feels contrived and rather pointless.

You're describing role playing, then saying it's contrived and pointless. The entire thing this forum is built around is contrived and pointless? There's 0 value to be had in a player letting their character branch outside their normal behavior? There's 0 value in the party's interactions as a result of erratic or different behavior?

JNAProductions
2018-03-12, 02:58 PM
It's a decent idea, but the issue is that my players have serious issues when it comes to keeping the meta out of their actions. If I've let the players know something the characters aren't supposed to know they tend to just charge on with that knowledge taken as a given.

Charm, Fear, etc. are effects imposed by NPCs and the world (ie the GM) that alter how PCs act. Cursed items with and without sentience are also commonly affect PC behavior, sometimes offering a saving throw to fight the influence. Outright saying "the GM can never influence a PC" is just silly.

In that case, I'm afraid your idea isn't really feasible. Maybe ask the player in very general terms? But yeah, maybe not now.

And, while I do agree with you that DMs can influence players, it's generally short-term and a direct result of either a mistake they made or enemy action.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-12, 03:00 PM
First, player agency is not an on-off switch. It's a measure that goes from zero to theoretical infinity. So it's totally reasonable to take away some of the player's agency, not all of it. For example, you might consider a Wisdom save or similar to see if some of their spells prepared/known get temporarily changed in favor of those aligned with the Primordial. Or you might add a chance of earthquake to spells which are resisted by opposition.

This said, visions, dreams, portents of doom and other hallucinations go long a way. You could do with just them and sit back and watch what the player goes and does in response.

OdinTGE
2018-03-12, 03:03 PM
And, while I do agree with you that DMs can influence players, it's generally short-term and a direct result of either a mistake they made or enemy action.

Exactly. The primordial is an enemy. I wasn't suggesting the PC become an entirely different person over night. My general idea is that the PC has momentary or situational issues as a result of the primordial's influence, much like the effects of spell.

Pleh
2018-03-12, 03:13 PM
Problem: influencing a PC without explanation to player or character.

Dreams are a great way to start. It's only presenting the player with vague and questionable information.

Next, you start bringing the dreams into focus. That weird symbol they saw in the dream months ago matches the family crest or strange architecture found later in the adventure, bringing a haunting sense that something was speaking through the dream. Now the content is verified, but the voice is uncertain, as well as its motive.

Next, as the sorcerer grows in power, the dreams grow stronger, becoming more vivid. Have a Dream Combat Encounter where damage taken in the dream is left as nonlethal bruises upon awaking. The Omens are growing from mere pictures and symbols into lingering emotional interference. The character starts making will saves after the dreams. Failure doesn't change alignment, but perhaps failure means the effort robbed them of rest and they wake up fatigued.

jayem
2018-03-12, 05:38 PM
Problem: influencing a PC without explanation to player or character.
Dreams are a great way to start. It's only presenting the player with vague and questionable information.

It also gives you a bit of a chance to get player buy in. They get to know somethings going to be up, and should be fairly ready to say e.g. "If I play a character. My character includes the ID, Ego, Superego and AstralEgo." (in which case you should be ready with an equivalent model that keeps the internal and external seperate)
While Player knowledge and Character knowledge remain similar.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-03-12, 05:46 PM
So how can I impact the PC without it feeling like I'm just attaching an anchor to the player and saying "sucks to be you, champ!"

Use the carrot, not the stick. Offer him devil's bargains.

Occasionally offer the player a deal where if he goes with the urges and does the dark thing you want him to do then you give him bonus XP, or temporary stat bonuses, or some other benefit along those lines. Make the offers tempting to him because it's always his choice if he wants to take them or not. And if he always refuses then it's still fine. That says a cool thing about the character too.

Thrudd
2018-03-12, 06:07 PM
Charm, Fear, etc. are effects imposed by NPCs and the world (ie the GM) that alter how PCs act. Cursed items with and without sentience are also commonly affect PC behavior, sometimes offering a saving throw to fight the influence. Outright saying "the GM can never influence a PC" is just silly.


You're describing role playing, then saying it's contrived and pointless. The entire thing this forum is built around is contrived and pointless? There's 0 value to be had in a player letting their character branch outside their normal behavior? There's 0 value in the party's interactions as a result of erratic or different behavior?

Magical effects are temporary and limited changes. There are usually ways that curses and the like can be avoided by careful players. There are rules about the specific ways they affect characters with saving throws, etc. That is different than you just forcing a player to act differently because of plot. I didn't say the GM can't influence a PC, I said it's out of your jurisdiction to tell a player how their character should act. You can curse them or put them under a spell, but what happens after that is up to them. The player's only job in the game is role playing their character, that's the one thing you absolutely should not be doing for them.

A PLAYER can do anything they want with their character, they are the role players. They can have their characters change alignments or have personal growth or struggle with morality or whatever they like. They determine how a character changes, outside of magical compulsion in which the game rules take control of their character (like fear restricting how and where you can move). If you magically change their alignment, they decide how that manifests in the character's actions, not you. It is contrived, IMO, for you to tell them that you want them to act a certain way, and then they do what you tell them, like you're a director with a movie script. If you say "you have been cursed and your alignment is changed from LG to CE. How do you want to play this?" That's not the same thing. In this case, the player can choose to pursue removing the curse if they want. Or they can lean into it and go full evil. It is contrived for YOU to decide how everything is going to play out with the characters. Should the character hide the change and try to undermine the party with sabotage? Will they struggle with it and ask their friends for help control their impulses and to end the curse? Will they go full villain and just attack the group or run off to recruit an evil team to fight his former friends? Not your call.

For your situation, what you could do is to tell the player that the nature of magic is slowly changing their alignment from lawful to chaotic (or whatever it is). Their role playing will be informed by this. They need to decide what, if any, erratic behavior their character exhibits. Or tell them that you have a special rule that will require them to make regular saving throws to determine how their character behaves at different times. If this is a built-in element to playing a sorcerer, the player should be told in the beginning so they can decide if they even want to play a character like that. Anything else is taking it too far. Personally, as a player I would expect you to consult me before the game to see if this is something I even want to or feel like I am able to role play. The player should have veto power over this type of permanent, sweeping change to their character's basic concept. If they don't want to play an erratically behaving character that regularly loses control over their actions, they shouldn't have to.

kyoryu
2018-03-12, 07:29 PM
So how can I impact the PC without it feeling like I'm just attaching an anchor to the player and saying "sucks to be you, champ!"

Things happening to PCs does not remove agency.

Removing choice from the player does.

So, in this case what I'd do is offer the character up some of this power... but make it well known that as he does he can feel chaos in his mind. Make it known as he progresses that continuing this gives this chaotic feeling/force more power over his mind.

From there, rather than "DC x or do the thing", I'd go more subtle. Take a page from Apocalypse World and attach a penalty to things that aren't aligned with what the spirit wants. If they're sufficiently opposed, allow the force to make some kind of attack or something along those lines. The key here is you're creating some soft compulsion to do what the entity wants without ever removing the absolute ability to choose.

It seems subtle, but it's the difference between:

GM: "Okay, make a DC 14 will roll"
Player: "Ugh, I failed."
GM: "You now have a chaotic entity in you, whispering thoughts in your brain."

...

GM: "Okay, here's the situation. Make a DC <x> will roll"
Player: "Ugh, i failed."
GM: "This is what you do."

Kind of bad, huh?

Instead, do this:

GM: "As you channel the energy, you feel it fill you, entering your mind with visions of chaos. Do you keep this up?"
Player: "Yeah, this is cool!"
GM: "Okay, you feel the energy settle in your mind, whispering to you."

...

GM: "Okay, here's the situation. What do you do?"
Player: "I do this non-chaotic thing."
GM: "As you start on that, the voices start raising in intensity. Doing this is going to be a <amount> penalty. You still going through with it?"
Player: "Ugh, yeah, I guess."

You can also give bonuses when doing things aligned with the spirit. The cumulative effect is that it's more effective for the PC to be chaotic, giving them an incentive to do so *without removing their ability to resist*.

Darth Ultron
2018-03-12, 08:41 PM
Well, I would never talk with a player and hash something out: that is just pointless. Even if you have an ''agreeable'' player, it's just dull to do the ''oh, yea, do that thing we agree to do for that thing'' and it becomes just a dull thing to take up time in the game. And few players will be agreeable. Most will only want things to happen that they control or a pointless, and both are just about always a waste of time. Few players will want to do anything that has any real effect; even more so anything ''bad''.

IF you want anything to effect a character, you simply must accept that the Player won't like it...but it would regardless be a good, fun thing to do.

THEN you must decide how much you want to effect the character. And if you are worried at all about what the player might think or say and it bothers you at all. Then just drop the whole idea.

Good Stuff:

Dreams and visions are a good start. I myself like the ones that ''come true''.

Twisting spell effects is a great way to effect the character...adding a bit of ''evil chaos stone'' is a nice touch. You do want it to have a big effect, or as above it's pointless and you better just not doing it.

Adding a 'extra' summoned creature is a great effect...one I use a lot. So adding an extra evil earth elemental to a spell is a nice touch.

You could have something effect the character. A slow peterfication effect is nice. Turn the character slowly to stone...but also give them Damage Reduction(kinda like Stoneskin).

Cespenar
2018-03-13, 03:29 AM
Instead, do this:

GM: "As you channel the energy, you feel it fill you, entering your mind with visions of chaos. Do you keep this up?"
Player: "Yeah, this is cool!"
GM: "Okay, you feel the energy settle in your mind, whispering to you."

...

GM: "Okay, here's the situation. What do you do?"
Player: "I do this non-chaotic thing."
GM: "As you start on that, the voices start raising in intensity. Doing this is going to be a <amount> penalty. You still going through with it?"
Player: "Ugh, yeah, I guess."

You can also give bonuses when doing things aligned with the spirit. The cumulative effect is that it's more effective for the PC to be chaotic, giving them an incentive to do so *without removing their ability to resist*.

Basically do this.

This is not that new of a trope, after all.

Glorthindel
2018-03-13, 05:14 AM
I would say you are fine to go through with this - the premise of your setting (which I assume you have conveyed to the players), is "there is no 'normal' magic, and what magic is now appearing is coming from strange unknown places", and given that this is the defining feature of your setting, it should be fairly obvious that discovering where this new magic is coming from and why, is going to be a key element of the campaign.

By choosing to play a magic user they are implicitly agreeing to roll with this facet of your setting, and should expect to have to deal with the potential ramifications. If a DM specifically says "this part of the game is going to function differently in this campaign, and the truth of how it works is going to be hidden from the people in the world at the start", and the player then chooses a class that closely deals with this part of the game, then that player would be in the wrong to complain later that that part of the game is functioning differently, as they made their choice at the start knowing that fact.

Lorsa
2018-03-13, 06:23 AM
I would say you are fine to go through with this - the premise of your setting (which I assume you have conveyed to the players), is "there is no 'normal' magic, and what magic is now appearing is coming from strange unknown places", and given that this is the defining feature of your setting, it should be fairly obvious that discovering where this new magic is coming from and why, is going to be a key element of the campaign.

By choosing to play a magic user they are implicitly agreeing to roll with this facet of your setting, and should expect to have to deal with the potential ramifications. If a DM specifically says "this part of the game is going to function differently in this campaign, and the truth of how it works is going to be hidden from the people in the world at the start", and the player then chooses a class that closely deals with this part of the game, then that player would be in the wrong to complain later that that part of the game is functioning differently, as they made their choice at the start knowing that fact.

I would note that this only holds true if there was some sort of communication about the nature of magic in the setting before the player chose to play a spellcaster.

Quertus
2018-03-13, 09:28 AM
I would note that this only holds true if there was some sort of communication about the nature of magic in the setting before the player chose to play a spellcaster.

Yeah, I didn't get the feeling that the player was making an informed choice to play a.... whatever you call a male channeler in Wheel of Time.

Being a 'gotcha' GM, who punishes players for playing their class, has fallen out of style these past few decades.

Lorsa
2018-03-13, 10:04 AM
Yeah, I didn't get the feeling that the player was making an informed choice to play a.... whatever you call a male channeler in Wheel of Time.

This was my view as well, that it seems as if the player had no idea they signed up for a primordial being of chaos and evil to influence their personality, or even that there was a major danger of being a spellcaster.

Also, I think they were called male Aes Sedai?



Being a 'gotcha' GM, who punishes players for playing their class, has fallen out of style these past few decades.

Was it ever in style?

kyoryu
2018-03-13, 11:22 AM
It's also worth looking at how Condition Tracks are handled in Dresden Files Accelerated. While you're probably not playing Fate, the general idea is still useful. Specifically, the Vampiric "Hungry" Condition and the Changeling's "Call" Condition.

Segev
2018-03-13, 02:36 PM
Also, I think they were called male Aes Sedai?

Aes Sedai were an organization. In ancient times, they weren't female-only, but they are in the time the books take place in. Male channelers were called different things by different cultures, but "male channeler" is the most generic. The Asha'Man were Rand Al'Thor's new organization of exclusively male channelers.




As to the OP's question, I agree on the "devil's bargains." But there's no need to be particularly overt with them. When he acts in accordance with the Primordial's desires while casting an [Earth] spell or something otherwise particularly thematic to the situation, inform him that he finds he didn't expend a spell slot. Give him situations wherein, if he behaves in certain ways, he gets +1 or +2 to his CL. If he goes along with things enough, inform him that he's learned a new spell (of you-as-the-Primordial's choosing). Maybe even offer it to him before he's "earned" it, but only something he can cast in specific circumstances.

Bonus points if you offer him a spell that makes it easy to solve a problem he has in a way the Primordial would approve of, but which he might not be inclined to without the spell that makes this particular approach the easy one. e.g. if they need to sneak into a city on a hill, offer him rock to mud to use on the foundations and cause the wall to collapse in an area that would let them slip in. Maybe even just...give it to him for free. (Assuming he doesn't already have it.)

The idea here being to make it "easy" to do things the Primordial's way.

Rhedyn
2018-03-13, 02:55 PM
The primary "thing" in my campaign/world is that the world has been without magic for well over a thousand years. Nobody on the material plane knows how or why this happened but whatever happened seems to be ending; magic is returning. As this process is happening things are going to get a bit troublesome in the world (rifts opening to other planes, wild magic, etc.).

One of my PCs is a stone sorcerer. In my world his power comes from the fact that the Earth Primordial is imprisoned beneath Moradin's mountain in the Astral Plane and he (Moradin) is siphoning off a bit of the Primordial's Power to give to the PC. This is entirely without the PC's (or the Player's) knowledge. He just has these powers and doesn't know how or why.

The actual point of my post: As things really start to kick off in the world with all this magical and planar shenanigans I'd like the stone sorcerer to start feeling the effects of essentially being linked to this ancient beyond imagining, insanely powerful, incredibly pissed off primordial. So the first step is dreams/visions relating to the Primordial etc.; that's easy. I want to have it actually impact the character though. This character is clearly good aligned with a bit of a lawful leaning. The primordial is...not those things, not at all. So how can I impact the PC without it feeling like I'm just attaching an anchor to the player and saying "sucks to be you, champ!"

Two ways I see it. You can have interference from the primordial that effects the party somewhat so that they go deal with it.

Or temptation. Have the primordial start to offer deals to the PC. Like maybe the PC needs a hill to form on to a castle wall and the Primordial wants some "evil" wizard slain for binding Earth elementals.

Thinker
2018-03-14, 09:50 AM
I'd go with temptation myself. The primordial offers additional power for carrying out its needs and wants. After using a power, wait until the character is in an opportune setting and then has to make a Will save (or equivalent) to resist some foul impulse. For example, yesterday the Sorcerer was able to look through a wall to see a goblin ambush waiting on the other side. Now, they are leading the goblin chief back to the nearest settlement for trial and the primordial decides it wants a sacrifice. Roll Will. On a failure, the Sorcerer loses it and guts the prisoner. The more the character uses the primordial's power, the more power it grants and the more heinous the actions it demands. I might also make the powers have an unavoidable cost in the form of HP or a spell slot and change appearance slightly - become paler, loss of hair color, the like.

Come up with a list of powers ranging from fairly mundane to very useful. Explain that use of more advanced powers can only be unlocked through the use of more basic powers and that all powers have a cost.