Applicability of [metamagic] feats to spells modified by other feats (or CFs)

[ShurikVch]

Background:
#1040 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22909772&postcount=1040)
#1041 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22909851&postcount=1041)
#1043 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22911841&postcount=1043)
#1044 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22911942&postcount=1044)
#1046 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22912158&postcount=1046)
#1047 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22912320&postcount=1047)

Either we're completely misunderstanding each other's reasoning, or it would be something like that:

The "Fell ..." line of [metamagic] feats in Libris Mortis is working with spells which do damage - you can't slap it on something like Daze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/daze.htm), or even Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm), because neither of those spells do any actual damage.
Thus, such spells as Confusion, Doom, or Flashburst couldn't benefit from it, right?
Except...

This metamagic feat can be applied only to a spell that has the fire descriptor. A blistering spell deals an extra 2 points of fire damage per level of the spell. In addition to the spell's normal effect, any creature that fails its save against a blistering spell takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and checks until the beginning of your next turn.
A Death Frost spell inflicts an extra 2d6 points of cold damage against any creature affected by the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to partially or completely resist its effects, the same saving throw applies to the extra cold damage. For example, ghoul touch allows a Fortitude save to resist its effects completely, and therefore a successful save against a Death Frost ghoul touch negates both the extra cold damage and the spell's regular effects. If the enhanced spell has lingering effects, the extra cold damage occurs only at the onset of the spell's effects. Spells enhanced by Death Frost gain the cold descriptor. A Death Frost spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Whenever you successfully cast a spell upon any creature of the animal, fey, or plant type you may choose to deal damage equal to your caster level to the target, even if the spell does not normally deal damage. If the spell cast allows a saving throw and the target succeeds it takes no damage from this ability. If the spell cast does not allow a saving throw the target can make a Fort save to negate this damage.As we can see, those feats are changing spells in such way those actually would inflict damage (especially the last one - it directly says it will work for spells which aren't inflict damage normally) and, thus, work with [metamagic] feats from the "Fell ..." line
Correct?

According to heavyfuel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?75291-heavyfuel) - no!

But why?!
Never before I met such restrictive reading, so I'm genuinely baffled
To not make things any clearer, heavyfuel's quotes (in #1047), apparently, lacking any significant RAW to backing the point - it says metamagic doesn't work with items, but not with feats (duh! metamagic is feats! :smallamused:)

So, what's with it?

[RoboEmperor]

If you're talking about your post in #1043 I'm going to have to agree with the naysayers.

Spell:Animate Dead
Result: Raised Skeleton
After Result: Class Feature Activates
Class Feature: Add a bonus to the raised creature.

Metamagic such as Ocular Spell and Reach Spell can change the original spell so that it works with Persistent Spell, because it says it changes the spell's range to a fixed number.

In all of your quotes none of the class features say it changes the spell. It just says tack on this bonus after you created it.

You're claiming that the class features change the Animate Dead spell so that it adds the bonuses to the creatures it raises so you can apply Fell Energy Spell, but at no point does it say it does that.

Compare the text of Ocular and Reach spell to the class features in question. You'll understand what we are talking about. One directly says to change the spell, while the other says add this bonus to the resulting creature.

[Goaty14]

Ok, aside from the post looking like you trying to paint heavyfuel as a complete dolt, and "metamagic is feats" horribly triggers my internal autocorrect, here's how I see it.

You have a metamagic feat that increases a number by +2 in a spell if its a bonus.
You have a class feature/feat that increases a number for a group of spells.
You are asking if you can use the metamagic feat to improve the bonus of the class feature/feat -- No, metamagic feats cannot affect class features or feats.

Here's where it gets "confusing".
-You're actually asking if you could put a fell energy metamagic feat onto say a bulls strength AND have the class features apply -- Yes
-Me/heavyfuel (presuming, dunno what he/she/it saw) are thinking that you asked if you could apply fell energy to the class feature, and then apply the class feature to the spell -- No, you can't apply a metamagic feat to another feat. (it works this specific way because if not, you could theoretically apply the metamagic to both the CF/Feat AND the spell, and get a +4 on the bonuses instead of the normal +2. Heck, you could get away with applying the feat to each one!)

Suppose we have fell energy

Now you're mad because you think that we're saying that they overlap, and only the higher bonus applies. No, all of the applicable modifiers that you mentioned are used and they stack.

I think that the actual thing that you're getting at is that the metamagic feat/CF changes the spell to add a bonus, and thus (if the former is true), the fell energize applies to it, regardless of whether or not the original had such a bonus.
Whether or not ^ (if it's the question *actually* being asked) is true is beyond me. On the one hand the metamagic feat affects the spell (the unmodified one, to be exact), but I could see an argument going the other way.

[RoboEmperor]

Since I'm a nice guy I'll even do this


Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and +2 hit points per Hit Die.

It doesn't say modify the spell, it says modify the resulting undead creature from the spell



Every undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains a +2 natural armor bonus to Armor Class.

It doesn't say modify the spell, it says modify the resulting undead creature from the spell



Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains a +4 bonus on initiative checks and a 10-foot increase to its base land speed.

It doesn't say modify the spell, it says modify the resulting undead creature from the spell



All undead creatures created by a dread necromancer who has reached 8th level or higher gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity and 2 additional hit points per Hit Die.

It doesn't say modify the spell, it says modify the undead creature created by a dread necromancer.



At 4th level, the thrall of Zuggtmoy learns how to infuse undead she creates with fungus. Any undead she creates with a spell, supernatural ability, or magic item gains a +2 bonus to Strength and a +2 bonus to its natural armor.

It doesn't say modify the spell, it says modify the undead creature created by the thrall of Zuggtmoy.

I'd like to add this isn't a restrictive reading of RAW. This is a normal reading of RAW. It is very clear and straightforward. In fact it's normal english grammar.

[Venger]

Metamagic feats only affect spells, not class features, feats, or anything else.

As you yourself pointed out, heavyfuel already quoted the salient RAW, metamagic feats apply to spells, not to feats or class features.

There is nothing to discuss.

[Falontani]

This spell imbues an area with negative energy. Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area takes a –3 profane penalty, and every undead creature entering a desecrated area gains a +1 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD.
If the desecrated area contains an altar, shrine, or other permanent fixture dedicated to your deity or aligned higher power, the modifiers given above are doubled (–6 profane penalty on turning checks, +2 profane bonus and +2 hit points per HD for undead in the area). Furthermore, anyone who casts animate dead within this area may create as many as double the normal amount of undead (that is, 4 HD per caster level rather than 2 HD per caster level).
I would say that a +x is a bonus. So desecrate would work and would give a +6 bonus to hit points per HD (with an altar) . Which is very nice.

[Fizban]

I'm not that interested in reading the full argument, because I only need to see one line to know what my response is going to be.

There is nothing that supports the idea that metamagic feats apply in the order the player desires, possibly not even that they apply in any order at all, with Maximize and Empower setting the precedent quite clearly. So if you want an example of someone else applying such a "restrictive reading" that you've never seen before, well I'd be one of them.

I don't intend to get into a huge argument over it though, because there's no point. People that want to treat the game like a bad computer program they can exploit will always do so, the DMG does not support this, and I will personally never agree to it. But oh man does char-op hate that.

[Goaty14]

I would say that a +x is a bonus. So desecrate would work and would give a +6 bonus to hit points per HD (with an altar) . Which is very nice.

But what you say isn't RAW. The +HP isn't specifically called out as a bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm) (unlike the profane bonus to atk rolls) and thus isn't affected. If the designers wanted it to be affected, they would make it a bonus, right?

[Falontani]

But what you say isn't RAW. The +HP isn't specifically called out as a bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm) (unlike the profane bonus to atk rolls) and thus isn't affected. If the designers wanted it to be affected, they would make it a bonus, right?

There are so many oversights and misunderstandings in the rules that the designers messed up on; They may well have intended it to be a bonus. However what even is a bonus?
something welcome and often unexpected that accompanies and enhances something that is itself good the bonus hit points on undead creation/summon is most definitely a bonus


(Your link isn't loading so I can't read what the SRD is considering a bonus)

[heavyfuel]

Dude, seriously.

"Any numerical bonus granted by a spell modified with this feat increases by +2 for all undead creatures it affects"

The spells aren't granting these bonuses.

Read the spells.

The spells don't grant them.

The only "bonus" they grant is the +2 to Will (which would become +4). You can argue the +2 from Turn Resistance, but's not called a bonus either.

There's absolutely nothing in the spells descriptions that say they grant the bonus you're so interested in.

The bonus are part of your feats and class features.

"Any numerical bonus granted by a spell modified with this feat increases by +2 for all undead creatures it affects"

Feats and class features aren't spells.

I don't know how this discussion got this point.

[RoboEmperor]

There are so many oversights and misunderstandings in the rules that the designers messed up on; They may well have intended it to be a bonus. However what even is a bonus? the bonus hit points on undead creation/summon is most definitely a bonus


(Your link isn't loading so I can't read what the SRD is considering a bonus)

This is Dragon Compendium, as in Dragon Magazine, as in made by Paizo and not the original developers. It is ****ed up by design.

So since it doesn't say it's a bonus it won't work with desecrate.

You can house rule it if you want, but it is neither RAI (no way Paizo thought of desecrate when they made this) nor RAW.

[ShurikVch]

If you're talking about your post in #1043 I'm going to have to agree with the naysayers.

Spell:Animate Dead
Result: Raised Skeleton
After Result: Class Feature Activates
Class Feature: Add a bonus to the raised creature.

Metamagic such as Ocular Spell and Reach Spell can change the original spell so that it works with Persistent Spell, because it says it changes the spell's range to a fixed number.

In all of your quotes none of the class features say it changes the spell. It just says tack on this bonus after you created it.

You're claiming that the class features change the Animate Dead spell so that it adds the bonuses to the creatures it raises so you can apply Fell Energy Spell, but at no point does it say it does that.

Compare the text of Ocular and Reach spell to the class features in question. You'll understand what we are talking about. One directly says to change the spell, while the other says add this bonus to the resulting creature.I'm sorry to break it to you, but Reach Spell doesn't "change the original spell" too
It says "You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet."
Note: it doesn't, actually, says it change spell's range - just "You may cast a spell ..."

Thus, Reach Spell doesn't change anything in the "original spell"
Half of your argument is invalid

Yes, Ocular Spell is still there, but now, when it's the only instance, I can say: "Ocular Spell is just special like that", and inquire - when, exactly, one (rather specific) case turned into general rule?


Since I'm a nice guy I'll even do this
...
I'd like to add this isn't a restrictive reading of RAW. This is a normal reading of RAW. It is very clear and straightforward. In fact it's normal english grammar.It's just cute how you're avoiding the "spell" word like a plague, despite the fact it's right there every time (except for Undead Mastery)



There is nothing that supports the idea that metamagic feats apply in the order the player desires, possibly not even that they apply in any order at all, with Maximize and Empower setting the precedent quite clearly. So if you want an example of someone else applying such a "restrictive reading" that you've never seen before, well I'd be one of them.Persistent Ocular Spell :smallwink:

[RoboEmperor]

It's just cute how you're avoiding the "spell" word like a plague, despite the fact it's right there every time (except for Undead Mastery)

Exactly. I've avoided it because I was showing you that the class feature was targeting the undead creature and not the spell.

It says modify the creature created from the spell. It doesn't say modify the spell so that it adds the bonuses to the creature it creates. The Class Feature acts directly on the creature and leaves the spell that created the creature untouched.

You make a good point about reach spell. Perhaps I'll add your argument to my other thread.

edit: Actually no, Reach Spell turns the touch spell into a ray, so it does directly change the spell.
edit2: Actually, I dunno, it could be interpreted either way. You could say you're not changing the spell but using it differently.

[Doctor Awkward]

Background:
#1040 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22909772&postcount=1040)
#1041 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22909851&postcount=1041)
#1043 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22911841&postcount=1043)
#1044 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22911942&postcount=1044)
#1046 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22912158&postcount=1046)
#1047 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22912320&postcount=1047)

Either we're completely misunderstanding each other's reasoning, or it would be something like that:

The "Fell ..." line of [metamagic] feats in Libris Mortis is working with spells which do damage - you can't slap it on something like Daze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/daze.htm), or even Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm), because neither of those spells do any actual damage.
Thus, such spells as Confusion, Doom, or Flashburst couldn't benefit from it, right?
Except...
As we can see, those feats are changing spells in such way those actually would inflict damage (especially the last one - it directly says it will work for spells which aren't inflict damage normally) and, thus, work with [metamagic] feats from the "Fell ..." line
Correct?

According to heavyfuel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?75291-heavyfuel) - no!

But why?!
Never before I met such restrictive reading, so I'm genuinely baffled
To not make things any clearer, heavyfuel's quotes (in #1047), apparently, lacking any significant RAW to backing the point - it says metamagic doesn't work with items, but not with feats (duh! metamagic is feats! :smallamused:)

So, what's with it?



The text of the Corpsecrafter feat line reads, "Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains <insert bonus>"

In order for Fell Energy Spell to interact with these features the way you want it to, the text on the class features in question would instead have to read "Necromancy spells you cast grant any undead they raise or create <insert bonus>".


As written, those features are not changing the effects of the spells in the same way your example Metamagic feats are. They are changing the undead themselves.

[Karl Aegis]

I would say that a +x is a bonus. So desecrate would work and would give a +6 bonus to hit points per HD (with an altar) . Which is very nice.

Desecrate spells out what the modifiers (given above) are doubled to. How did you get something besides exactly what the text states?

[Falontani]

It specifies that the bonus is doubled. The bonus being doubled normally means that +1 becomes +2. However getting a +2 bonus from the feat in question would make the bonus be +3 normally, and doubled would make it be +6.

[Karl Aegis]

It specifies that the bonus is doubled. The bonus being doubled normally means that +1 becomes +2. However getting a +2 bonus from the feat in question would make the bonus be +3 normally, and doubled would make it be +6.

It doesn't specify the bonus is doubled. I feel like you're trying to put a copy of Libris Mortis above a copy of the Player's Handbook and trying to claim the modifier in Corpsecrafter is technically above the text of Desecrate. That is... unusual. Strange, even.

[Falontani]

It doesn't specify the bonus is doubled. I feel like you're trying to put a copy of Libris Mortis above a copy of the Player's Handbook and trying to claim the modifier in Corpsecrafter is technically above the text of Desecrate. That is... unusual. Strange, even.

Strange? Strange that a feat that adds a +2 to any bonus gained from a spell affecting undead increases a bonus from 1 to +3. And that the spell states that if an altar (or other structure to an evil god/etc) is within the area that this bonus gets doubled. Which 3*2=6. Corpsecrafter has no baring on the argument at hand.

[Doctor Awkward]

Strange? Strange that a feat that adds a +2 to any bonus gained from a spell affecting undead increases a bonus from 1 to +3. And that the spell states that if an altar (or other structure to an evil god/etc) is within the area that this bonus gets doubled. Which 3*2=6. Corpsecrafter has no baring on the argument at hand.

You are definitely reading two separate parts of the spell and mashing them together.

Desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) says that any undead created within the area gain +1 HP per HD dice.

It is very arguable whether or not this counts, since Fell Energy Spell is very specific that it only functions on numerical values that are expressed using the word "bonus".

Furthermore, the doubling that occurs in front of the evil altar is a specific function of the Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) spell cast within the desecrated area. Normally animate dead only animates up to 2 HD per caster level with a single casting. Desecrate doubles this to 4 HD per caster level. This value is not expressed as a bonus either.

EDIT: the text in the animate dead spell also makes it clear that this is all Desecrate does for it. So I really have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion.

[Falontani]

This spell imbues an area with negative energy. Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area takes a –3 profane penalty, and every undead creature entering a desecrated area gains a +1 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD.
If the desecrated area contains an altar, shrine, or other permanent fixture dedicated to your deity or aligned higher power, the modifiers given above are doubled (–6 profane penalty on turning checks, +2 profane bonus and +2 hit points per HD for undead in the area). Furthermore, anyone who casts animate dead within this area may create as many as double the normal amount of undead (that is, 4 HD per caster level rather than 2 HD per caster level). The part in parentheses are all examples of the ability doubling itself due to the permanent fixture. However it does bonus all portions of the spell, not just the animation of the dead.