UPDATE: Swashbuckler Rogue/Monk multiclass?

[ToastyTobasco]

The goal is damage vs damage/utility.
Pure Rogue vs Shadowbuckler or Drunkbuckler


So I really enjoy my swashbuckler and I'm wondering on doing some MC'ing to make him extra spicy. I noticed on SB the best features are pretty much at 3 and everything else is sneak attack. The level 9 ability seems okay but I see more backfires occurring with drawing aggro like that. It could be helpful out of combat and being the party face but we have a Bard so meh on that.

I know SA is the main draw of Rogues and Swash allows those sweet d6's to just roll everywhere. Monk has a lot of survivability and awesome skills but there's bonus action competition (Attacking, Flurry, Dash and other cunning stuff). This is partly remedied with SB's ability to hit and run without using cunning action to disengage. It also really frees up Ki usage for just Flurry of blows and Deflect missiles.

Open Hand seems really good for just in your face fighting and self heal. And Shadow has that realllllyyy nice bonus action teleport. The spells are nice. Drunken Master has Disengage with Flurry and a hilarious L6 with attack redirects.

Nit and grit questions:

Stats are 8 16,14,10,12,14 (wood elf) He's MAD, I tell you, MAD! These could be redone for better flow/optimization
I already have the SB to 4, debating on ASI to get the multiclass rolling at 5 (3d6 SA and Evasion to keep me alive longer).

Just how much overall would I lose multiclassing to lets say 10 as a 5-Rogue/5-Monk vs going pure Swashbuckler? (Campaign will probably go to 14-15th level)

Can I dual wield shortswords and Monk effectively? (better damage buying weapons since fists wont reach d8 for a really long time) Yes you can. Swing sword, SA? If hit, yes, then flurry. If no, swing again with BA for another chance.

Should I just Swash buckles and be happy I can slice and dice all over the place? If so, no biggie

Fun bit: Throwing a missile/arrow back into another enemy by an ally for SA damage? (Yes, some DM's might look at you funny.)

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Attempt at Dnd math: Forgive me

Using plain dual shortswords and unarmed strikes (Kicks, headbutts etc) MC vs straight rogue (Ki purely for flurry.) Not factoring dex damage atm for time

Stopping at SB 5: 2d6 + 3d6 SA.

L6-Monk 1: No change in damage or AC. vs No change (expertise)

L7- Monk 2: 2d6, 1d4+3d6 SA +2d4 (2x)( Have to drop armor. AC 13) VS 2d6+ 4d6 SA and AC 14 or 15. Evasion

L8- Monk 3: 2d6+3d6 SA +2d4 (3x)(Shadow or Palm) VS 2d6+ 4d6 and ASI (dex -18 = AC 16-17)

L9 Monk 4: 2d6+3d6 SA +2d4 (4x) (ASI +2 Dex, Ac 15) VS 2d6+ 5d6 and Panache

L10 Monk 5: 3d6 (extra attack)+ 3d6 SA +2d6 (x5) or stuns VS 2d6 +5d6 and ASI (Dex- 20 AC- 18-19?)

Edit: Clarifications:
I screwed up making the stats and they can be redone.

Our party only has a Ranger when it comes to stealth/high damage, a Druid shifter for tanking/healing, a Lore Bard for the swiss army knife/support and evoker wizard who joined back up. I would like to be the guy skirmishing and taking out certain threats. Not looking to be the star of the show either. Getting a "How do you want to do this?" from killing an enemy is reward enough for me.

[ToastyTobasco]

Did some dice math.

[FelineArchmage]

I'm sorry that I can't help you with answering your questions/advice, but I Just wanted to say that I am also currently playing a SB Rogue 4/Drunken Master Monk 4 (so similar to what you're doing), and it's so fun.

[bid]

Stats are 8 16,14,10,12,14 (wood elf)
Is that Wis12 Cha14? Because you need Wis13 to MC.

And your point array is short. 10 14+2 14 10 13+1 12 is possible, if you don't want Dex16/Wis16.

[white lancer]

I think a Monk/Swashbuckler combo sounds like a lot of fun! There's definitely some synergy with the Rogue's SA boosting damage while Cunning Action frees up ki points from Step of the Wind (so you can do Flurry or Patient Defense, both of which seem useful for a Rogue). Eventually getting Extra Attack is a big draw, and the extra movement speed doesn't hurt...the Open Hand stuff seems particularly useful for a Rogue, though your save DC won't be especially high. There are a few concerns, though: your AC won't be great since your character is MAD--that CHA isn't helpful basically at all for a Monk, after all, and you'd be priced in to using your level 4 ASI on WIS so that you can even class into Monk.

My guess is that it'll be effective enough that you won't be a drag on the party, but it might not be quite as effective as a straight Swashbuckler--you'll be better at some things and worse at others. What it will do is enhance your natural mobility and give you a few more options in combat at the expense of pure damage and having to pump WIS. It should work fine...though you may get more out of a Fighter multiclass (Action Surge, a Fighting Style, a little more HP, either an increased Crit range or maneuvers or some low-level spells, and you still get the Extra Attack at 5 without having to worry about WIS). It depends on what you want to do.


Can I dual wield shortswords and Monk effectively? (better damage buying weapons since fists wont reach d8 for a really long time)

I think the off-hand shortsword is only more damage if you're getting Sneak Attack on it (i.e. you missed your first strike). Otherwise, the unarmed strike is better on average since you get your Dex mod to the damage (and Flurry is only unarmed strikes).

[Easy_Lee]

The low Wisdom is a concern. Your stunning strikes will not have a high DC and are therefore unlikely to work. If you wish to use this multiclass, you would be better off going Shadow or Kensei than Open Hand. Open Hand's saving throws will not be high for you, but the Kensei and Shadow abilities don't have DCs.

What are you trying to do with this character? That's the deciding factor. A shadow monk 6 / Rogue 2+ is better at stealth than an 8+ rogue, is even more evasive, and does comparable melee damage, but also has weaker reaction attacks, fewer feats, and cannot use Uncanny Dodge until rogue 5.

[ToastyTobasco]

I'm sorry that I can't help you with answering your questions/advice, but I Just wanted to say that I am also currently playing a SB Rogue 4/Drunken Master Monk 4 (so similar to what you're doing), and it's so fun.

I am seriously struggling on choosing between Shadow Monk and Drunken after thorough monk reading. My only issue with drunken is that it kind of promotes getting in the face of two enemies, but it could also be seen as another safeguard against being ganged up on.


Is that Wis12 Cha14? Because you need Wis13 to MC.

And your point array is short. 10 14+2 14 10 13+1 12 is possible, if you don't want Dex16/Wis16.
I realized that my point buy is off by one a few hours after posting this.... Reorganizing the stats wont really be a problem. I havent picked ASI or Feat yet and I should clarify that better


I think a Monk/Swashbuckler combo sounds like a lot of fun! There's definitely some synergy with the Rogue's SA boosting damage while Cunning Action frees up ki points from Step of the Wind (so you can do Flurry or Patient Defense, both of which seem useful for a Rogue). Eventually getting Extra Attack is a big draw, and the extra movement speed doesn't hurt...the Open Hand stuff seems particularly useful for a Rogue, though your save DC won't be especially high. There are a few concerns, though: your AC won't be great since your character is MAD--that CHA isn't helpful basically at all for a Monk, after all, and you'd be priced in to using your level 4 ASI on WIS so that you can even class into Monk.

My guess is that it'll be effective enough that you won't be a drag on the party, but it might not be quite as effective as a straight Swashbuckler--you'll be better at some things and worse at others. What it will do is enhance your natural mobility and give you a few more options in combat at the expense of pure damage and having to pump WIS. It should work fine...though you may get more out of a Fighter multiclass (Action Surge, a Fighting Style, a little more HP, either an increased Crit range or maneuvers or some low-level spells, and you still get the Extra Attack at 5 without having to worry about WIS). It depends on what you want to do.



I think the off-hand shortsword is only more damage if you're getting Sneak Attack on it (i.e. you missed your first strike). Otherwise, the unarmed strike is better on average since you get your Dex mod to the damage (and Flurry is only unarmed strikes).
The Charisma is more or less an initiative boost and if I have to drop it to +1 I dont think I'll mind too terribly. I would like to do Rogue 5/Monk 6 minimum for the Rogue ASI and Uncanny Dodge to help keep me alive through Shadow/Drunk(?) monk levels.

The Fighter MC would be a better if not superior option as I would pretty much be eligible by playing Rogue at all. All the maneuvers like Riposte, Parry (Parry>Uncanny dodge> possibly 0 damage), Rally and Disarm would add chances for lots of extra damage even for a (3) dip. The Champion's crit range wouldnt be bad either.

From my bit of math; straight SB would be more consistent and monk might beat the SA damage in small bursts for flurry but it is limited. I would be trading AC and 2 extra d6 per SA damage, 1 level earlier ASI and Panache for: stunning, an extra attack, lots of movement, unarmed damage and with traditions spells/ teleport (shadow) or disengage on flurry and redirecting attacks (drunk).


The low Wisdom is a concern. Your stunning strikes will not have a high DC and are therefore unlikely to work. If you wish to use this multiclass, you would be better off going Shadow or Kensei than Open Hand. Open Hand's saving throws will not be high for you, but the Kensei and Shadow abilities don't have DCs.

What are you trying to do with this character? That's the deciding factor. A shadow monk 6 / Rogue 2+ is better at stealth than an 8+ rogue, is even more evasive, and does comparable melee damage, but also has weaker reaction attacks, fewer feats, and cannot use Uncanny Dodge until rogue 5.

I could redo the stats since I already screwed up by making the point buy off by one.

I wasnt planning on Open Hand too much and the more I look at this idea, Shadow or Drunken Master would be the way to go. I dont care for Kensai with this because it adds weapons I will either not use since they arent light and finesse. Also I already have longbow prof as an elf. It adds more bonus action competition, unless I just go bow/xbow. Kensai shot would just tack a d4 onto ranged attacks and save the trouble of throwing two daggers/darts/handaxe/ arrows/xbow. Outside of using a heavy crossbow or a longbow, this seems really meh compared to other L3 options.

The character concept is a Rogue trying to do good after a life of crime, tries to go on the straight and narrow but starts to really suck at it and just starts fighting dirty by mixing punches, knees, headbutts and kicks into his duelist style fighting. Shadow monk adds nasty tricks and mobility to his arsenal on top of the basic monk goodies. I've started him as a SB as I wanted to try Rogue out and SB was the less complex option. The Rog5 would get me Dodge and 3d6 and then go Monk 6 for teleport and the basic monk goodies. Then its deciding to go through Rogue or Monk the rest for more damage/utility. We are going through Hoard of the Dragon Queen atm and I'm told we might go to around level 15. I'm just not sure how the early game will go if I went Rogue 3/Monk 6 instead to get the teleport sooner and miss the ASI and Dodge.

Our party only has a Ranger when it comes to stealth/high damage, a Druid shifter for tanking/healing, a Lore Bard for the swiss army knife/support and evoker wizard who joined back up. I would like to be the guy skirmishing and taking out certain threats. Not looking to be the star of the show either.etting a "How do you want to do this?" from killing an enemy is reward enough for me.

[Quoxis]

What strikes me as a good combo is how defensive you can play this MC with just a few levels of monk:
Dive in for the attack, then run away again (unarmored movement and wood elf makes 45 ft of movement per turn) and use your bonus action and a ki point to dodge. You now have advantage on Dex saves (which a mid-level rogue can use with „evasion“ to potentially negate the damage completely) and attacks against you are made with disadvantage (and if one really manages to hit you, you use your reaction on uncanny dodge to halve that damage). I‘m currently playing a swashbuckler 5/monk 2 which can pull that off for at least two rounds of combat, and it is potent - he’s a dedicated healer reviving the fallen damage dealers, mainly the squishy wizard, if he’s not attacking by himself.

[ToastyTobasco]

What strikes me as a good combo is how defensive you can play this MC with just a few levels of monk:
Dive in for the attack, then run away again (unarmored movement and wood elf makes 45 ft of movement per turn) and use your bonus action and a ki point to dodge. You now have advantage on Dex saves (which a mid-level rogue can use with „evasion“ to potentially negate the damage completely) and attacks against you are made with disadvantage (and if one really manages to hit you, you use your reaction on uncanny dodge to halve that damage). I‘m currently playing a swashbuckler 5/monk 2 which can pull that off for at least two rounds of combat, and it is potent - he’s a dedicated healer reviving the fallen damage dealers, mainly the squishy wizard, if he’s not attacking by himself.

Huh, didnt think of doing that. Grabbing medicine proficiency might not be a bad idea with our semi-low healing (Dunno if I could cram Healer in this build....) Staying alive is a big priority as I have already lost two characters into the rather short start of this campaign (One I regret sacrificing in a Death House Halloween special and the other was a Str-Bladelock who got murdered and nat 1'd a death save along with our barbar going against a dragonborn champion. (Just dont play them below level 5-6...it's not worth the grief. I felt so underpowered all the time. Didnt have Hexblade available either)

[Quoxis]

Huh, didnt think of doing that. Grabbing medicine proficiency might not be a bad idea with our semi-low healing (Dunno if I could cram Healer in this build....) Staying alive is a big priority as I have already lost two characters into the rather short start of this campaign (One I regret sacrificing in a Death House Halloween special and the other was a Str-Bladelock who got murdered and nat 1'd a death save along with our barbar going against a dragonborn champion. (Just dont play them below level 5-6...it's not worth the grief. I felt so underpowered all the time. Didnt have Hexblade available either)

Though common consensus seems to be that 5e doesn’t need healers i‘d argue that in a group with few damage dealers or few/no damage preventers (blessing clerics, aura of protection paladins, aggro drawing barbarians) it’s never a waste to have any form of healing, even beyond the typical stabilization - a stable character with 0hp can’t attack, a healed character with 1hp can, and therefore they contribute to the battle. My heal-monk-buckler (who took the healer feat, mainly because with rolled scores after racial bonuses he’s standing at 18 dex and wis) got two characters up and running again during a recent fight, all while dodging and running away, and i can’t stress enough how great it is to dodge on a bonus action while using your action to deal or heal damage - **** additional 2d4 from flurry on low levels, if you can instead outlast the opponent.
If you plan to get to high levels 11 levels of long death monk make you virtually immortal, that’s where i‘m headed with my build anyway.


P.S.: no need for medicine proficiency, carry a healer‘s kit - stabilization auto-succeeds with it. Still no hp healing without the feat though.

[ToastyTobasco]

Though common consensus seems to be that 5e doesn’t need healers i‘d argue that in a group with few damage dealers or few/no damage preventers (blessing clerics, aura of protection paladins, aggro drawing barbarians) it’s never a waste to have any form of healing, even beyond the typical stabilization - a stable character with 0hp can’t attack, a healed character with 1hp can, and therefore they contribute to the battle. My heal-monk-buckler (who took the healer feat, mainly because with rolled scores after racial bonuses he’s standing at 18 dex and wis) got two characters up and running again during a recent fight, all while dodging and running away, and i can’t stress enough how great it is to dodge on a bonus action while using your action to deal or heal damage - **** additional 2d4 from flurry on low levels, if you can instead outlast the opponent.
If you plan to get to high levels 11 levels of long death monk make you virtually immortal, that’s where i‘m headed with my build anyway.


P.S.: no need for medicine proficiency, carry a healer‘s kit - stabilization auto-succeeds with it. Still no hp healing without the feat though.

Where is Long Death Monk located? I've never heard of this

[bid]

Where is Long Death Monk located? I've never heard of this
SCAG p 130

[ToastyTobasco]

SCAG p 130

While it doesnt have the utility of Open Hand or Shadow, this would be really nice for a character that just will not freaking die. The level 3 ability is a much better version of a Fiend Pact's temp HP gain. The fear on 6 looks nice even at the cost of an action. 11 is just Death saves? Hehe, nope, nope, nope