DM letting us redo

[MaxMAnAtArms]

For those who missed my earlier silliness Current borked build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550258-Where-to-go-from-here). My Dm has told me while we were out camping that after this current ark were in (lord of metal or something or another) We are going to or should be hitting 20. We are going to find out our "intended purpose" and be able to reincarnate (aka redo) our pcs. I know what I want to do more or less now. Which is stay a sorcerer and drop the fighter class out fully.

After poking around I have seen what to do for Prestige classes. I have ended up with Sorcerer (6)/Shadow Adept(8)/Mindbender (1)/The Effigy Master(5).

I have the base mostly set up but i recently saw war mage / Battle sorcerer/ and other variant classes/ ACF and substitution levels. I was wondering is it worth tapping into those instead of being straight up Sorcerer.

i.e
Level one i do Divine Companion so my familiar inst a possible weakness and its more of a heal/shield bot
level 5 get the Domain Access so I can dip into some cleric spells from my deity such as Knowledge or Sin pride. (shar)

For those who will/might ask. I will essentially be my normal casting self with effigys. (thinking a Rhino mount maybe a small snake i can use as a scout/look out) or the more interesting mixes such as "that damn crab" and such. The Shadow class is for the the shield which is also a anti magic missile and a SR booster with armor and a 20% conceal for myself.Plus the 3 free feats that will let me increase my spells vs dispel and CL boosting. Mindbender for telepathic (my char doesn't talk much as it is) And of Effigy to boost my Caster level and let me have some "minions" that wont have overly harmful effects to me if they should die.


Only thing the Dm said Is i must stay my current race but everything else will be redone from scratch. i.e level 1/ 2 /3 etc etc.

Some feats i have looked into getting or using
Shadow Weave Magic (so i can hit shadow adept)
Practiced Spellcaster (boosting the big damage spell im going to main run)
Spellcasting Prodigy (more spells)
Practiced Spellcaster (more powerful spells)
Arcane Disciple (possible way to double dip into 2 domains should I go for the cleric spell list)

I would greatly appreciate ideas or opinions or alternative classes to use as well as long as they are Caster friendly and Boost caster class levels and give me spells. Any feats would also be great if i missed absolutely needed ones.

[Falontani]

Effigy Master is a great class, just remember that it is extremely expensive to have and maintain for these pets. Seriously consider if what you want is constructs or something else.
Other things to note: practiced spellcaster is +4 to one of your classes to a max of your hd. I'm afb atm, but I'm fairly certain one instance will get you to your maximum caster level with the current build. It also doesn't stack with itself, you would be taking it for different classes.

What are you wanting to do with your character? With a complete respec without race change or gear change you have a lot you can access. So you worship shar. I believe there is a class in complete divine that progresses your arcane spellcasting while giving you some cleric levels, then you could go mystic theurge to boost your arcane spells and your divine spells without ever having to go cleric.

It really depends on what you wanting to do

[Calthropstu]

As this is 3.5, there is literally zero advantage to staying in sorcerer. Pf fixed that, but in 3.5 as long as you don't lose a casting level, you can only gain from dipping into prestice classes.

[Goaty14]

I have the base mostly set up but i recently saw war mage / Battle sorcerer/ and other variant classes/ ACF and substitution levels. I was wondering is it worth tapping into those instead of being straight up Sorcerer.

Some ACFs are only really good for certain situations, depending on what goal you have in mind for your build. I.e battle sorcerer is only really good if you're making a gish.


Only thing the Dm said Is i must stay my current race but everything else will be redone from scratch. i.e level 1/ 2 /3 etc etc.

Funny, because the actual spell reincarnate ditches your race but keeps your class.


Arcane Disciple (possible way to double dip into 2 domains should I go for the cleric spell list)

It's a trap!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/unturned-bunker/images/e/e9/IT%27S_A_TRAP.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/625?cb=20150521023923
You can only cast each domain spell 1/day, so don't take the feat unless it's a spell on another list that you NEED and have the wisdom to be able to cast it. If your DM ignores/doesn't care about the 1/day thing, it's still a pretty bad idea because you need wisdom to cast it.

However, it adds the spell to your list, so you'd auto-succeed UMD with the spell, but it's still mediocre.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I'm trying to stay a primary caster for the group as we got 2 range shooters a stealthy stabby. a cleric whos not a cleric and a melee half dragoness. Dm is are back up "Caster" with his Npc.

@ Falontani
I'm aware Effigys are costly but I also know my GM isn't overly tight on loot. He uses a loot randomizer Program which is pretty good plus he liked giving us "specific" items for certain People so we aren't completely RNG screwed.

@ Calthropstu
So Is there any suggested classes you would say to use? Should I stay the absolute minimum Sorcerer level and just dip to glory?

@ Goaty14
From the hints he has been giving were supposed to be some sort of demigod for our chosen races essentially.
Honestly Ive seen tons of awesome builds and gish mixes.
Thank you admirial!


Im not sure if I would be able to pick one. What i want is to have some fun and not be overly complicated with dice rolls and enjoy the game. Thats why i brought what little of a battle plan I had and threw it out here to the Gitpg to see what people thought and get feed back.

Auto hit spells are nice and so is CC (black tentacle field) the ability to hit Golems (found that out a hard way).

Im currently looking up Gishes and what they can do to see if what I want has been done before or not.

[Calthropstu]

Some great ones:
Fatespinner. Costs 1 caster level, but gives a host of abilities to affect die rolls of yourself and others. If you skip out on getting 5th, no caster loss and abilities still gained.
Initiate of the sevenfold veil has some steep requirments, but is worth it.
Been a while since I played 3.5, but pretty much any prestige class that doesn't eat caster levels upon entry will be good.

[Nifft]

As far as I can see it, here are your ingredients:

Sorcerer 5 - A decent base (assuming you want to be a Sorcerer). Reduce this if possible, but that's unlikely since most Sorcerer PrCs want 8 ranks / 3rd levels spells.

Shadow Adept 1 - Just taking one level gets you 3 feats. All the other levels are relatively bad.

Mindbender 1 - Just taking one level gets you Telepathy 100 ft., and (as above) all the other levels are relatively bad. Mindbender 1 is a nice level to take as your 6th character level, if you can swing the skill prereqs.

Effigy Master 5 - This is a fine class, assuming you want to craft Effigies in specific. However, note that you could just buy Craft Construct, and craft a bunch of non-effigy Constructs.


That leaves a LOT of empty levels, which need to get filled. You talk about the Shadow Weave and worshipping Shar, so I assume you are in the Forgotten Realms, thus you will have access to FR-specific PrCs (like Incantatrix) but not Eberron stuff or whatever else.

- Apparently you're a Halfling. Does this mean you do not have access to Shadowcraft Mage? Being a Shadow Weave user means you're mechanically good at Illusions, and the Shadowcraft Mage has a lot of flavor synergy with the Shadow Weave, too. If your DM allows you to use the Shaodwcraft Mage PrC, then give it strong consideration.

- Nightmare Spinner 5 costs you one level of casting progression, but gives you +1 spell slot per spell level, which is a solid trade. Also there's some good Fear & Illusion stuff. Furthermore, the prereqs are a subset of the Mindbender prereqs, so it's practically free.

- Sandshaper 1 or 5 levels. One level costs you a level of spellcasting progression, but in trade it expands your spells know greatly. Five levels gets you free Metamagic 3/day, plus other perks. You could take more, but 5 levels gets most of the goodies for the lowest cost.


So... anything catch your eye?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to agree that more than one level of Shadow Adept is too much, and that the sixth Sorcerer level could probably go as well.

You're losing one level of spellcasting for Effigy Master, so you can't lose more than one more and still get 9th level spells. I'd avoid losing any more at all if possible, since Practiced Spellcaster doesn't make up for the loss of spells/day, spells known, or highest level spells, it only makes up your caster level.

Paragnostic Apostle in Complete Champion could be a fantastic choice for one to five levels, depending on how many abilities you want to pick up from it. Incantatrix is a go-to because of how powerful it can be, even for just a few levels, but you may not want to take the prohibited school hit. Fatespinner 4 can also be good, and Divine Oracle 2 or 4 for Evasion and Uncanny Dodge is also decent.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Im a stronghearted half ling (human in a small size). I was doing shadow adept so high for the shield with SR but I can always toss that out and just do the 1 level dip. No problem with that.

Yes I would like to stay sorcerer since i like being able to do variant of spells but wouldnt mind shifting to a wizard if someone gave me a good enough reason to do so.

Looking up gish i keep seeing Abjurant Champion as a "must have for caster/melee" and was honestly looking into that some. or doing something as a dusk blade to be a Abjurant champion easier.

Mindbender 1 for telepathy was one of the choices i was looking forward to already :D

Nightmare Spinner sounds interesting for illuision spells. Id have to see how it works for me. I typically go the "blaster" i.e fireball magic missle scorching ray etc type of caster.

Sandshaper? I heard it gave some interesting spells but they kinda were Based on being near/by sand. ill dig into it.

Fatespinner Sounds interesting also im going to dig into it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to make a Gish, you'll need to get 9th level spells (which Practiced Spellcaster doesn't help with) and a +16 BAB by 20th level. You can't use Sacred Exorcist if you're not good aligned, and Eldritch Knight doesn't improve your spells known so it's off the table, but Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) (reflavored if needed) can be used to finish out the build.

You could go something like Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 7, for 9th level spells and a +17 BAB at 20th level. You can replace one Knight Phantom level with a dip into either Mindbender or Shadow Adept, but you can't put those earlier because Sorcerer 6 gives you the BAB required for Spellsword.

If you switch to Wizard, you can afford to lose three levels of spellcasting, and if Knight Phantom isn't available you can still use Eldritch Knight as you can learn as many spells as you want anyway. In that case go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4. Use this UA variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get a bonus Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Take the Dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighter and use that with Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2. Incantatrix will allow you to make an absurd number of buffs Persistent if you optimize your Spellcraft skill check, good choices include Draconic Polymorph, Ray Deflection, Superior Invisibility, Wraithstrike, Ruin Delver's Fortune (three times), Shield, Magic Circle Against (alignment), Swift Fly, Expeditious Retreat, Foresight, etc.

Be warned, going with that Wizard/Incantatrix gish build is getting into TO levels of power that should never even see play.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Instead of gish i might just stick to caster focus and power casting that way so my DM doesnt throw a book at me. He has the heavy ones. lol.

[Nifft]

Instead of gish i might just stick to caster focus and power casting that way so my DM doesnt throw a book at me. He has the heavy ones. lol.

Being a gish itself isn't that bad.

Incantatrix can be that bad, if you abuse Persistent Spell.

Anyway, getting you into Mindbender on time will be a challenge, mostly from a skill points perspective. You'll need:
- Bluff 4 ranks , Diplomacy 4 ranks , Intimidate 4 ranks , Sense Motive 4 ranks -- all doable by level 5 cross-class, if you have the points to spend. Being a Human with Able Learner would help in two ways.
- Must be able to cast charm person, this is easy.
- Caster level 5, this is automatic if you're a level 5 Sorcerer.

So the question is: can we get you enough skill points as a Halfling that you can afford all those cross-class ranks before level 6?

Yes we can.


Str 15(gauntlents of ogre strength)
Dex 19
Con 17
Int 13
wis 12
Cha 16


Str 13 (?)
Dex 19
Con 13
Int 16
wis 12
Cha 17


I suspect your Str was originally 13 and became 15 with a pair of +2 Gauntlets, so trading with Con wouldn't help. However, if you can increase your Con to 14 by swapping with Str, do so.

With 16 Int, you'll get (2+3) skill points per level, and that's enough to buy all the social skills you need, plus Concentration which you also need -- but only if you can get TWO of those four social skills as class skills. You have one already (Bluff) from Sorcerer, so you need one more.

There are a number of feats which grant Diplomacy (or another relevant skill) as a class skill:
- at level 1, take Draconic Heritage (RotDr) - Amethyst, Crystal, Pan Lung, Prismatic, or T'ien Lung - grants Diplomacy as a class skill.
- at level 1, take Apprentice (DMG2) - grants Diplomacy & Perform, or Intimidate & Kn(local), or Sense Motive & Kn(any).
- at level 1 or 3, take Martial Study (ToB) - grants Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive depending on the school of the specific maneuver.

... and probably more ways, check with your DM.

Any of those ought to be enough to get you into Mindbender at level 6, so you can take the Mindsight feat on time.

Cheers, -N

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I will gladly look into the tweaking into getting into mindbender early. and getting this guy underway. :D thank you for the advice and suggestions for the feats to take to get into the class.


Im currently working on the "blue print" of my character so I can post it and see if im missing anything.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

From some suggestions I have ran into the Shadow Evocation and similar spell sets and found you can increase the % of "Real". Is there any major down side to it? (besides people disbielving them?) and is there ways to patch the weakness and make them more reliable?

Is shadow based spells and reinforcement worth the feats/Class levels?