Deities : are outsider HD the same as class levels ?

[Puke]

Hello,
I'm building a set of tools for my players to use. They are playing gods. We are playing this settings for more than one year and we are updating the character sheets and trying to figure out if everything is fine. I'm pretty sure some players messed up because their sheets have very different ability scores...

The characters are : lvl 20 + 20 outsider hit dice.

Regarding outsider HD : how much ability point does 20 HD provide ?
Is it 1/4 HD ?

Other question : do they count as levels for the maximum ranks cap for skills ?

And here comes a very dumb question : when you take the first Outsider HD, you do not use the multiplier to calculate the skill points if the outsider HD are taken after the first class level, right ?

Thanks.

[Celestia]

Racial hit dice function exactly the same as class levels, including multiclassing with actual classes. They do not, however, count towards multiclass penalties if you use that rule. So, to answer your specific queations...

Yes, RHD give ability boosts every fourth level, just like classes. At level 40, your players would have +10 total.

Yes, they increase skill maximums. Your cap is always total hit dice + 3, so for your players, that would be 43. Or 21 for non class skills.

Correct. Only your first level gives the ×4 skill multiplier. That said, usually RHD are counted first with monster characters. Though, if your players gained class levels before becoming gods, then I suppose the Ousider RHD would be second.

[BowStreetRunner]

The Outsider Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) nets you "Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die." So that's fairly clear. Note that you would not then also get quadruple skill points for your first class level. The quadruple points are handed out for your first Character level, whether that comes from racial HD or from a class.

[Puke]

Many thanks to both of you for these very clear answers.

I'm currently using google sheets to include as much automation for these very complicated character sheets.

As you can imagine, building gods as player characters is a pain, and the character sheets are far from being suited for this purpose as all players have bonus from a lot of different sources (gear, divine rank, epic bonus etc...)

[Puke]

Hey guys, another question :

It is stated "Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter)"

Does this mean that it replaces the BAB of the class ?
So, we have 20 class levels and 20 OHD.

I assume the answer depends on : what the player get first : the 20HD or the 20 class levels ?
Or maybe it does not matter and we just take the best of the 2 ?
Obviously this only matters for the 20 first "overall level" since past 20 we enter into epic rules.

[BowStreetRunner]

Hey guys, another question :

It is stated "Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter)"

Does this mean that it replaces the BAB of the class ?
So, we have 20 class levels and 20 OHD.

I assume the answer depends on : what the player get first : the 20HD or the 20 class levels ?
Or maybe it does not matter and we just take the best of the 2 ?
Obviously this only matters for the 20 first "overall level" since past 20 we enter into epic rules.

It means that your Outsider levels give you +1 BAB for each HD. It has no effect on your actual class levels.

An Outsider 10/Fighter 10 would have BAB +20
An Outsider 10/Cleric 10 would have BAB +17
An Outsider 10/Wizard 10 would have BAB +15

For comparison, a Humanoid only gets 3/4 BAB. So the BAB they get from HD follows the Cleric progression (+0, +1, +1, +1, repeat...). Fey only get 1/2 BAB (+0, +1, repeat...).

(Edited to reflect BAB only goes up to character level 20.)

[Falontani]

Epic rules generally do not allow you to gain more bab after level 20. Rhd ignores this rule. Meaning you get the bab and saves of your outsider levels on top of your regular levels.

[BowStreetRunner]

Epic rules generally do not allow you to gain more bab after level 20. Rhd ignores this rule. Meaning you get the bab and saves of your outsider levels on top of your regular levels.

Actually, this is a good point. The rule states that "the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th". Character level includes class levels and HD levels. So the Outsider 20/Class 20 examples would not apply. You get the BAB of your first 20 levels. After that you get the Epic Attack Bonus progression.

[Falontani]

Actually, this is a good point. The rule states that "the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th". Character level includes class levels and HD levels. So the Outsider 20/Class 20 examples would not apply. You get the BAB of your first 20 levels. After that you get the Epic Attack Bonus progression.

Except that all epic creatures continue their BAB based on RHD normally. Epic levels only applies to PC levels apparently.

INFERNAL
Large Outsider (Evil, Chaotic, Extraplanar))
Hit Dice: 40d8+360 (700 hp)
Initiative: +11 (+7 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 80 ft., fly 240 ft. (perfect)
AC: 50 (+7 Dex, –1 size, +34 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +58 melee, 1 bite +50 melee, 2 wings +50 melee, 1 tail slam +50 melee
Damage: Claw 4d6+16, bite 4d8+8 +spell suck, wing 2d6+8, tail slam 4d8+8
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, spell suck, learned spell immunity, spell-like abilities, summon fiend
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, fast healing 15, regeneration 15, SR 38, DR 15/Good and Epic
Skills: Balance +11, Concentration +52, Diplomacy +13, Escape Artist +50, Hide +46, Jump +21, Knowledge (arcana) +49, Knowledge (the planes) +49, Listen +53, Move Silently +50, Scry +49, Search +49, Sense Motive +51, Spellcraft +49, Spot +53, Tumble +50
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Sunder, Weapon Focus (claw)
Epic Feats: Blinding Speed (×2), Tenacious Magic (improved invisibility), Tenacious Magic (blur), Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus (claw), Epic Weapon Focus (bite)
Saves: Fort +31, Ref +29, Will +30
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 29
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary or hell brigade (1 infernal and 1d4 balors, or 1 infernal and 1d4 pit fiends)
Challenge Rating: 26
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Lawful evil or chaotic evil
Advancement: 41–50 HD (Large); 51–56 HD (Huge); 57–72 HD (Gargantuan)
Infernals are born of the ill-starred meeting of god and fiend. Even gods are seduced, and from the union of heaven and hell are born fiendish abominations called infernals. Those born of god and baatezu are lawful, and infernals born of god and tanar’ri are chaotic. All are horrors of fiendish form, pitch-black scaled humanoids standing 15 or more feet tall. Vast dragonlike wings enfold each infernal, but are unable to hide the tearing claws, the hellish maw, or the eyes from which gleam the promise of eternal damnation.
Unlike many other abominations, infernals have more freedom to roam areas of their hells of origin, though they are proscribed by divine decree from moving farther afield. This suits the various princes of the Nine Hells and the Abyss, because many infernals are possessed of such might that they could challenge even a prince’s supremacy. For this reason, most powers of the lower planes seek to further isolate infernals if possible, or even slaying them when they can. For their part, infernals plot and scheme with malice unlike any other, until the time is right to tear the multiverse to ribbons.
Combat
Infernals are mighty creatures, and crafty. If possible, they seek to neutralize spellcasting foes first, should any conflict arise. Their bite sucks the spells and minds of any it can catch. Infernals cast blur and improved invisibility on themselves as needed during combat.
Improved Grab (Ex): If an infernal hits with a claw, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Infernals can use this ability on Large and smaller creatures. The infernal has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use its claw to hold the opponent. Each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals standard claw damage, in addition to automatic spell suck damage.
Spell Suck (Su): If an infernal bites a foe, the foe loses one of its highest-level prepared spells or one of the spell slots for this day that it has not used. The victim chooses the prepared spell to lose. If the victim has no prepared spells or unused spell slots (either because it has exhausted its spellcasting for the day or because the victim is not a spellcaster), the bite instead deals 2 points of temporary Intelligence damage.
Learned Spell Immunity (Su): If an infernal is affected by a spell cast by a particular spellcaster, the infernal thereafter becomes immune to that spell when cast by that spellcaster. For instance, if the infernal is hit by Mialee’s horrid wilting and is affected, it then becomes immune to horrid wilting if cast by Mialee ever again, though if Hennet casts horrid wilting on the infernal, it is subject to the spell’s effects (the first time).
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—animate dead, blasphemy, blur, charm person, create undead, darkness, deeper darkness, desecrate, detect chaos, detect good, detect law, detect magic, fear, fireball, greater dispelling, hold person, improved invisibility, magic circle against good, major image, produce flame, polymorph self, pyrotechnics, read magic, scrying, suggestion, symbol, telekinesis, teleport without error (self plus 1,000 pounds), unholy aura, unholy blight, unhallow, wall of fire; 1/day—fire storm, hellball (see Chapter 2), implosion, meteor swarm. Caster level 26th; save DC 19 + spell level.
Summon Fiend (Sp): An infernal can summon four balors or four pit fiends per day, depending on the internal’s orientation toward law and chaos (lawful infernals summon pit fiends, and chaotic infernals summon balors).
Abomination Traits: Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-effecting effects; fire resistance 20; told resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft. telepathy out to 1,000 ft.
Regeneration (Ex): Infernals take normal damage from good weapons. Lawful infernals also take normal damage from chaotic weapons and vice versa.
Bolded importance: 43 str = +16 from str. Epic Weapon focus = +2, Weapon Focus = +1. He is large so he gets a -1. So his total from non BAB = +18. He has a +58 which gives us a surprising 40 BAB. His HD = BAB just like it should for an outsider.
Now with the example I will state, we have no examples of creatures with both RHD and Class Levels.