Is adding templates to your character after he's built a munchkin move?

[magicalmagicman]

I'm trying to add the Ghost template from ghostwalk to my character, but my DM is tilting his head as if it's a munchkin move. He's worried about "template stacking", but I honestly don't know what template stacking is and how it can be abused. As far as I know, all templates come at a LA cost so it's not really abusable unless you plan on staying at your level forever, at which point it's only "broken" for your current level and you become "broken" the other way (too weak) because you can never level up, and you gain experience at a slower pace.

[Segev]

"TO" just means "theoretical optimization." Technically, any build that follows the RAW is TO. Well, theoretical. It's TO if it's also optimized rather than randomly slapped together.

As for whether it's a munchkin or powergaming move, that's more about why you're doing it. There's nothing wrong with it, in theory, so long as you're following the rules (both official and those of the tabke as set by the DM). But if the DM is looking askance at you for it, he probably thinks it's too powerful. I'd discuss with him what his concerns are and why you want it, and work out an agreement.

[magicalmagicman]

"TO" just means "theoretical optimization." Technically, any build that follows the RAW is TO. Well, theoretical. It's TO if it's also optimized rather than randomly slapped together.

As for whether it's a munchkin or powergaming move, that's more about why you're doing it. There's nothing wrong with it, in theory, so long as you're following the rules (both official and those of the tabke as set by the DM). But if the DM is looking askance at you for it, he probably thinks it's too powerful. I'd discuss with him what his concerns are and why you want it, and work out an agreement.

Munchkin is the word I was looking for. I'll change the thread's title.

Could you still elaborate what template stacking is and how it's abused?

[AnimeTheCat]

There are several template that are low or no LA that can be applied and template stacking occurs when you apply them in the most beneficial order to yourself to make youself much more powerful than normally necessary for your ECL. I usually see this with other template, not Ghost. The DM could be looking at you with what I call a "who farted" look because it's usually obscure for players to seek out the Ghost template. Now, that may not contextually be the case for you, but I would look at my players funny if they asked me, mid campaign, if they could add the ghost template to their character somehow. If the player had just died doing something, and felt like there was unfinished business left for them to attend to, I may be inclined to offer them the ghost template if they so desired. With Ghost comes incorporiality and endless flight which can really throw a monkey wrench in many DMs plans, so he/she may feel as though your're trying to get the ghost template in and of it's self to powergame or be a munchkin.

[Falontani]

the application of multiple templates that should not be mixed can be mixed to create something unfathomably stronger.

I kept trying to come up with a good example, but I'm coming up with blanks

[magicalmagicman]

There are several template that are low or no LA that can be applied and template stacking occurs when you apply them in the most beneficial order to yourself to make youself much more powerful than normally necessary for your ECL. I usually see this with other template, not Ghost. The DM could be looking at you with what I call a "who farted" look because it's usually obscure for players to seek out the Ghost template. Now, that may not contextually be the case for you, but I would look at my players funny if they asked me, mid campaign, if they could add the ghost template to their character somehow. If the player had just died doing something, and felt like there was unfinished business left for them to attend to, I may be inclined to offer them the ghost template if they so desired. With Ghost comes incorporiality and endless flight which can really throw a monkey wrench in many DMs plans, so he/she may feel as though your're trying to get the ghost template in and of it's self to powergame or be a munchkin.

It's a common misconception, but the Ghost from Ghostwalk is not the same ghost from MM. It is LA:0, and you turn into an outsider instead of undead, and all the special stuff ghosts from MM can do have to be obtained via feats or feat chains.

[Goaty14]

the application of multiple templates that should not be mixed can be mixed to create something unfathomably stronger.

I kept trying to come up with a good example, but I'm coming up with blanks

Beat me to it :/

An example is Half Minotaur + Half Ogre + Primordial Giant for a whole 'lotta STR and a disproportionate less amount of int for a measly +1 LA. That's template stacking.


It's a common misconception, but the Ghost from Ghostwalk is not the same ghost from MM. It is LA:0, and you turn into an outsider instead of undead, and all the special stuff ghosts from MM can do have to be obtained via feats or feat chains.

Honestly, I think it is a munchkin move if the party is ECL 1 and you're ECL 6. If you actually want to become a ghost for RP reasons, you might suggest that the two of you work out a monster class.

Oh. I guess he's looking at you wrong like you're suggesting he run a ghostly campaign or somesuch.

[magicalmagicman]

An example is Half Minotaur + Half Ogre + Primordial Giant for a whole 'lotta STR and a disproportionate less amount of int for a measly +1 LA. That's template stacking.

I figured it'd be something like that so I was wondering about template stacking after character creation, so you can't be a half-everything.

[magicalmagicman]

Oh. I guess he's looking at you wrong like you're suggesting he run a ghostly campaign or somesuch.

No, it's just that normal players don't use templates, so he's just alarmed since I'm the first of our group who's trying to use a template mid-campaign.

He'll probably let me use it since we're playing with the gentleman's agreement, but it just got me curious. Is acquiring templates mid-campaign a munchkin move? Because I honestly never played with anyone who used templates.

[Celestia]

Is acquiring templates mid-campaign a munchkin move? Because I honestly never played with anyone who used templates.
Not necessarily. A munchkin is someone who tries to powergame and minmax their characters into absurdity. A munchkin is someone who plays to win instead of have fun. If you're adding the template so as to make your character mechanically better than the other players, then you're munchkining. If you're adding the template because you think it'll make your character more fun and interesting to play, then you're fine.

[TheYell]

Not necessarily. A munchkin is someone who tries to powergame and minmax their characters into absurdity. A munchkin is someone who plays to win instead of have fun. If you're adding the template so as to make your character mechanically better than the other players, then you're munchkining. If you're adding the template because you think it'll make your character more fun and interesting to play, then you're fine.

My groups have had so little free time that it's usual for them to discover a template or archetype they want to incorporate after Session 0. I'm the rare guy with the time to chart my feats and spells in advance.

[RoboEmperor]

Not necessarily. A munchkin is someone who tries to powergame and minmax their characters into absurdity. A munchkin is someone who plays to win instead of have fun. If you're adding the template so as to make your character mechanically better than the other players, then you're munchkining. If you're adding the template because you think it'll make your character more fun and interesting to play, then you're fine.

Virtually everything anyone does makes their character stronger/better, so I disagree. I think it's only munchkin if you're doing it solely for ridiculous power. Like a player who hates nature but plays a planar shepherd druid because it's OP, that's a munchkin. A player who likes robots doing everything he can to stack cost reduction feats on top of cost reduction feats on his construct master artificer, that's not munchkin, that's just normal optimization.

[Celestia]

Virtually everything anyone does makes their character stronger/better, so I disagree. I think it's only munchkin if you're doing it solely for ridiculous power. Like a player who hates nature but plays a planar shepherd druid because it's OP, that's a munchkin. A player who likes robots doing everything he can to stack cost reduction feats on top of cost reduction feats on his construct master artificer, that's not munchkin, that's just normal optimization.
You may note that is basically exactly what I said.

[Anthrowhale]

Beat me to it :/

An example is Half Minotaur + Half Ogre + Primordial Giant for a whole 'lotta STR and a disproportionate less amount of int for a measly +1 LA. That's template stacking.


The Half-ogre from Races of Man is LA+2 and giant. The half-ogre in Dragon #313 is LA+1 but it does not change type into a giant so this seems invalid. Half-Minotaur in Dragon #313 is LA+1. Primordial (Secrets of Xendrik, LA+0) Half-Minotaur (Dragon #313, LA+1) Half-ogre (Races of Man, LA+2) is LA+3 in total offering Str+6, Dex-2, Con+2, Cha+2, Large Giant, Natural Armor+6, Darkvision 60', gore 1d8 attack, Scent, Search/Spot/Listen+2, a 1/day SLA, and one knowledge class skill. That actually seems fairly balanced. At ECL 4, you have the same to-hit as a human Fighter 4, and a notably better AC but a substantially worse hp reserve, fewer feats, and lower skills.

[zergling.exe]

There are PrCs that give you templates as capstones or at other points, so getting one after character creation isn't necessarily munchkinism even by WotC's standards.

[magicalmagicman]

There are PrCs that give you templates as capstones or at other points, so getting one after character creation isn't necessarily munchkinism even by WotC's standards.

There's a difference between obtaining a template at the end of a 10 level prc, and obtaining a template out of the blue.

I just remembered Necropolitan. Wouldn't you say becoming a Necropolitan for its increase hit die when you have 8 con a munchkin move versus someone who doesn't?

[TheYell]

I'd say no, since you become undead and probably can't be healed by the cleric or the party inventory of potions and wands.

[tyckspoon]

The Half-ogre from Races of Man is LA+2 and giant. The half-ogre in Dragon #313 is LA+1 but it does not change type into a giant so this seems invalid. Half-Minotaur in Dragon #313 is LA+1. Primordial (Secrets of Xendrik) Half-Minotaur (Dragon #313) Half-ogre (Races of Man) is LA+0. Altogether, this an LA+3 approach offering Str+6, Dex-2, Con+2, Cha+2, Large Giant, Natural Armor+6, Darkvision 60', gore 1d8 attack, Scent, Search/Spot/Listen+2, a 1/day SLA, one knowledge class skill. That actually seems fairly balanced. At ECL 4, you have the same to-hit as a human Fighter 4, and a notably better AC but a substantially worse hp reserve, fewer feats, and lower skills.

The half-ogre cheese depends very strongly on using the Dragon Magazine template version. If you don't get to play with that, then the Races of Destiny race version is balanced to probably a bit weak.. heck, Half-Minotaur is kind of weak if you're putting it on a race that is naturally Large or larger, since you don't get the size increase.

If you're using both of the Dragon magazine templates, however, what you get is Half-Minotaur (applied first) Half-Ogre (applied second, because Half-Minotaur makes you Large and then this version of Half-Ogre is LA 0 if you're already Large) ..probably Human, because bonus feat and you want that skill point to help soak the Int you're sacrificing. But Water Orc if you don't mind completely dumping your mental stats into the basement and want to really do the BIG DUMB beatstick thing. If you want to add on Primordial Giant, than Half-Giant from the Expanded Psionics Handbook is a Medium Giant, so you still benefit from the size increase.

Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre on a Medium base creature gets you a ludicrous +16 Strength, +6 Con, +6 Natural armor, -4 Int, - 2 Cha, - 2 Dex, Large size for LA +1. The main reason the numbers are that silly is Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur explicitly tell you to use the chart for monsters advancing in size in addition to their other stat changes. Without that, they wouldn't have gotten a second glance in optimization (well, aside from being a relatively cheap way to be truly Large without eating racial hit dice - most other LA+1 options that are anything similar just get Powerful Build.)

Half-Minotaur alone is also pretty silly, if your game is using the racial form of Half Ogre instead of the template - you just don't get the 'free' addon of the LA 0 template once Half-Minotaur makes you Large.

[RoboEmperor]

There's a difference between obtaining a template at the end of a 10 level prc, and obtaining a template out of the blue.

I just remembered Necropolitan. Wouldn't you say becoming a Necropolitan for its increase hit die when you have 8 con a munchkin move versus someone who doesn't?

It is min/maxing for sure but I wouldn't call it "munchkin". Necropolitan ain't that great. It takes 2,000xp to acquire (more if done later than level 3), and if you hit 0 hp you die. Poof. That's it. And you're susceptible to turn undead, something clerics have oodles and oodles of.

[Anthrowhale]

Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre on a Medium base creature gets you a ludicrous +16 Strength, +6 Con, +6 Natural armor, -4 Int, - 2 Cha, - 2 Dex, Large size for LA +1. The main reason the numbers are that silly is Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur explicitly tell you to use the chart for monsters advancing in size in addition to their other stat changes. Without that, they wouldn't have gotten a second glance in optimization (well, aside from being a relatively cheap way to be truly Large without eating racial hit dice - most other LA+1 options that are anything similar just get Powerful Build.)

I see, thanks. The dump on the mental stats is interesting since it means most spellcasters can't really benefit.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If, and only if, you're doing so without paying commensurate costs for the templates. The ghost template from Ghostwalk had its level adjustment set at +0 under the presumption of a Ghostwalk campaign. Outside of the manifest zone, the incorporeality of the template probably warrants a +1.

Savage Species has guidelines for placing an ad-hoc LA to a non-standard race character. Use those guidelines and assess a reasonable LA for the abilities your character has, pay the appropriate ritual costs (that's how you'll get most templates), and you shouldn't run into to many problems.

[RoboEmperor]

If, and only if, you're doing so without paying commensurate costs for the templates. The ghost template from Ghostwalk had its level adjustment set at +0 under the presumption of a Ghostwalk campaign. Outside of the manifest zone, the incorporeality of the template probably warrants a +1.

I disagree. Raise Dead already takes a level away and unless you have a way to drop by Manifest you are going to lose a level. So it's already a +1. The unique part here is that you pay for the LA at the end instead of at the beginning. Not to mention only being able to advance as a Eidolon or Eidoloncer is also extremely detrimental. It means you cannot use PrCs because the Life Epiphany directly says it advances the base spellcasting class, never the PrC, so a Ghostwalk Ghost will have 0 PrCs unless you continuously weave in and out of Manifest.

There's even a sidebar saying how to adapt the ghostwalk setting into other campaigns like forgotten realms, and none of it says increase the template to +1, so its +0 outside ghostwalk is intentional.

I think no PrCs, no advancement of class features as a ghost, and needing constant raise deads with a risk of a level loss is more than enough for incorporeality. Some DMs don't include the city of Manifest so the level loss is unavoidable except with True Resurrection.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I disagree. Raise Dead already takes a level away and unless you have a way to drop by Manifest you are going to lose a level. So it's already a +1. The unique part here is that you pay for the LA at the end instead of at the beginning. Not to mention only being able to advance as a Eidolon or Eidoloncer is also extremely detrimental. It means you cannot use PrCs because the Life Epiphany directly says it advances the base spellcasting class, never the PrC, so a Ghostwalk Ghost will have 0 PrCs unless you continuously weave in and out of Manifest.

There's even a sidebar saying how to adapt the ghostwalk setting into other campaigns like forgotten realms, and none of it says increase the template to +1, so its +0 outside ghostwalk is intentional.

I think no PrCs, no advancement of class features as a ghost, and needing constant raise deads with a risk of a level loss is more than enough for incorporeality. Some DMs don't include the city of Manifest so the level loss is unavoidable except with True Resurrection.

You missed a detail, if you're making near zero change from Ghostwalk's setting rules; raise dead doesn't lower your level if the ghost of the character being raised is present.

Another detail you missed was that Ghjostwalk is a 3.0 supplement. LA proper wasn't a thing yet. PC suitable races that would have LA in 3.5 came with an aside giving their ECL.

If you're going to keep -all- of that baggage, effectively playing a Ghostwalk campaign, then you're right. It doesn't need a LA. Note, however, that there are official variants in Ghostwalk to relax all of that baggage; "flexible ghost advancement" and "no calling" both on page 12. In the typical kitchen-sink campaign, I don't see why either or both wouldn't be in play. If they are then +1 LA is warranted, given the potency of incorporeality without all the other baggage.

[Telonius]

It is min/maxing for sure but I wouldn't call it "munchkin". Necropolitan ain't that great. It takes 2,000xp to acquire (more if done later than level 3), and if you hit 0 hp you die. Poof. That's it. And you're susceptible to turn undead, something clerics have oodles and oodles of.

Something like Necropolitan can be munchkinny in particular circumstances. It's an easy way to get around Tainted Scholar's "might turn your character into a blubbering, insane, unusable mess" drawback, for one thing. It also combines really well with aging penalties on a caster that doesn't care about Strength or Dex (like a Druid with Corrupted Wild Shape), and Dread Necromancer generally (for unlimited self-healing).

[RoboEmperor]

You missed a detail, if you're making near zero change from Ghostwalk's setting rules; raise dead doesn't lower your level if the ghost of the character being raised is present.

I didn't know about this... Thanks for pointing this out! I misread the passage that explained this. I interpreted it as needing to cast raise dead within the manifest ward instead of just having the ghost nearby.


If you're going to keep -all- of that baggage, effectively playing a Ghostwalk campaign, then you're right. It doesn't need a LA. Note, however, that there are official variants in Ghostwalk to relax all of that baggage; "flexible ghost advancement" and "no calling" both on page 12. In the typical kitchen-sink campaign, I don't see why either or both wouldn't be in play. If they are then +1 LA is warranted, given the potency of incorporeality without all the other baggage.

Variant rules, like fumble rules, or paying money to level up, etc., as in it's not normal d&d. My DM doesn't do variant rules so he doesn't do either so i am stuck eidoloncer all the way until level 12 at which point I need a raise dead or a true resurrection. We're in Eberron.


Something like Necropolitan can be munchkinny in particular circumstances. It's an easy way to get around Tainted Scholar's "might turn your character into a blubbering, insane, unusable mess" drawback, for one thing. It also combines really well with aging penalties on a caster that doesn't care about Strength or Dex (like a Druid with Corrupted Wild Shape), and Dread Necromancer generally (for unlimited self-healing).

IIRC Black Sand also gives infinite self healing right? Anyways true dat! But like you said "under the right circumstances", as in the munchkin doing more than just adding necropolitan template.