Sorcererous questions

[Azazel_Unbound]

So, I'm a little anxious in asking this question, mainly in part because I can see two sides of an argument, but at the same time, I want to increase this player's enjoyment of their class. But, I digress.

So, I have a player who plays sorcerer, they love the thematic and the metamagic options for the character, however they have complained that their spell selection leaves them envious of other casters. I will acknowledge that they have a great deal of power from their metamagic, and this is balanced by said limited spell list. However, at the same rate I am curious if expanding the Sorcerer's known spells would cause a negative impact on the game as a whole, or tilt the powers scale on the sorcerer a bit too far.

The thematic idea for the change fits, being a sorcerer's magic is emotional, or based on intuition. Supplied by their feelings, thoughts, memories, and instinct.

Is there a way to make this work*, or should I trash the idea and tell the player that they will have to deal? The only ways I can think of is giving the sorcerer a more divine magic type of preparation. Thoughts?

[Tiadoppler]

So, I have a player who plays sorcerer, they love the thematic and the metamagic options for the character, however they have complained that their spell selection leaves them envious of other casters.

Is the problem with the number of spells known, or with the Sorcerer spell list? Have they chosen Spells Known that they don't like, or don't use? Maybe they should retrain some of their choices.

What level are they? Is a dip into Warlock and/or Bard an option? That'd give a bunch of cantrips/1st level spells for some variety.

[Hesh]

Is it the spell list, or the limit of spells known.

If it's the former, give then a magic item or boon which teaches them spells, or can expand charges to cast spells. If it's the lattwr, spell scrolls.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Maybe revive the good old runestaves from 3.5e?

[FelineArchmage]

If you're worried about spell list selection, perhaps have them switch to a Divine Soul Sorcerer? Divine Soul gets to choose spells from the sorcerer and cleric spell list whenever they learn something new.

Alternatively, you could backtrack a couple editions and homebrew just say that sorcerer and wizard share the same spell list again. Regardless of where they choose their spells from, they still only know a certain number of spells and have to choose wisely.

[Azazel_Unbound]

The issue comes from spells known, they feel it is lacking and restricting from what I understand.

[Kane0]

Aye, many others have had sinilar experiences with the sorcerer. Are you open to homebrew or are you seeking a meta solution like a magic item or boon?

[Tiadoppler]

The issue comes from spells known, they feel it is lacking and restricting from what I understand.

Is it just that they feel the number is too low at whatever level they are? What is their level/sorcery origin? What are they trying to do with their build? I could see bumping up spells known by Proficiency Modifier or something.

[Azazel_Unbound]

Honestly, I am open to either.

[Azazel_Unbound]

Is it just that they feel the number is too low at whatever level they are? What is their level/sorcery origin? What are they trying to do with their build? I could see bumping up spells known by Proficiency Modifier or something.

Most of it is that they feel the number is too low.

[Kane0]

Adding a handful of extra spells in a similar manner to paladin oaths/cleric domains doesnt break anything. Even half that like xanathar’s rangers will do the trick.
If you wanted to get more drastic you could add in new features or even overhaul the whole thing, but it’s really up to you.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?537049-Sorcerer-Rework

[Hesh]

Ask your player what it is they want to to with the additonal spells known if they were to have it.

That gives you an idea of what they want, and you can gradually build up to it.

[DarkKnightJin]

There's only one kind of Sorcerer that I'd wanna make/play.. Amd that is a Warforged Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer. Based on Xerath from League of Legends. And since I haven't delved too much into specifics of spells for him yet.. I just know that I want to get Call Lightning at some point. For the flavor of calling down 'magical artillery' on my foes.

I should probably look into what spells I'd want/need for a build like that, since the Spells Known amount is apparently pretty dang tight.

..Maybe Storm Sorcerer and a 2-level Warlock dip for at-will Mage Armor. Maybe Mask of Many Faces to hide his true form.. Eldritch Sight, since "The secrets of magic are mine alone!" and all that.
That could work, and it'd be pretty thematic, too.

[samcifer]

The issue comes from spells known, they feel it is lacking and restricting from what I understand.

It IS restricting. It's the worst feature of the class.

[Zene]

Spells known is insanely small for the sorcerer. But the thing is, if you give them metamagic and sorcery points, and then let them have as many spells known as even, say, a bard... they start to feel more powerful than any other caster.

Having played a sorcerer that found a staff of power, even just the additional spells in that --what, like 6 or so?-- made the character suddenly feel almost godly.

[Pharaon]

Are there other casters in the group? Buffing the sorcerer's spells known may irritate them.

That being said, the solution I've allowed at my table before is one extra spell known at levels 2, 4, 6, and 8. It really opens up some options for the sorcerer without turning them into a bard and ought to still be fewer than a wizard.

Also keep in mind that sorcerers get to know the most cantrips of any caster (besides tomelocks). Cantrips - especially twinned fire bolt - ought to be a sorcerer's primary weapon, with spell slots reserved for team support and heavy hits.

[Kane0]

Cantrips - especially twinned fire bolt - ought to be a sorcerer's primary weapon, with spell slots reserved for team support and heavy hits.

That sounds like the Warlock's thing if you ask me. When I see full casting + metamagic + sorcery points my first thought isn't generally 'gonna soup up my cantrips!'

[Pharaon]

That sounds like the Warlock's thing if you ask me. When I see full casting + metamagic + sorcery points my first thought isn't generally 'gonna soup up my cantrips!'

That's true! And it's partially because sorcerers and warlocks have similar number of spells known, with the sorcerer having only 1 extra spell known from 10-18 but otherwise the same.

Both classes get penned in a little due to low spells known. Warlocks get some help from invocations and (potentially) rituals. Sorcerers are supposed to get help from metamagic, but I feel like they still need a few more spells known.

[EvilAnagram]

The issue comes from spells known, they feel it is lacking and restricting from what I understand.

The easiest fix to this is to give them a magic item with a handful of extra spells. I'm playing a sorcerer now, and I understand the struggle, but I haven't felt remotely useless, even with a Bard, Druid, and Warlock in the group. Granted, I've had a ton of practice in spell selection with limited choices, but if they're hurting and you want to give them a hand, a staff that complements their choices would hardly hurt.

Do they have a ton of damage spells? Staff of Charming. Non-combat heavy? Staff of Fire. Do they need fun? Staff of Swarming Insects. Are they under level 7? Wand of Paralysis. Yes, this is a brute force measure to help a player who probably should have made better spell choices, but if it means everyone has more fun, who cares?

[Raif]

I've played a few sorcerers now and understand this. The small spells known list does suck, but it's definitely fixable.

Here are my recommendations:
1. Create a domain spell list and add 5 spells that are thematically appropriate and follow the "power level" of domain spells from other classes. My group created a domain spell list for every single sorcerer for me since I constantly play them (I'm the only one who does). These would be added at the same levels as other domain spells (1,3,5,7,9). I can ask if it's OK to share the spell lists if you'd like to peruse them.
2. Give them a wand of something. If they enjoy throwing fireballs, try a wand of fireballs or lightning bolts. There are so many wand options and from personal experience, a wand really gives a "freeing" feeling on the spell slot pressure
3. A ring of spell storing with pre-loaded spells
4. If they're high enough level, one of the staves. This would do the same as the wand, but a lot more freeing as something like the staff of power or fire is huuuuuuuge in increasing spells known

[Davrix]

Something my DM did for my wizard recently that you could use for this was allow for the following.

The player takes his total number of spells known, adds up their spell level and uses that point pool to buy extra spells for the spell-book. I can still only prepare so many per day as the class rules state but I have more options each morning to choose from.

So say you have 2 lv 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells and 1 lv 3 spell

Thats is 2 + 4 + 3 = 9 points to spend so they can either buy 9 more level 1 spells or 3 more level 3 spells. IT will give the player more options but if you stick to the so many spells prepared per day rules the power gap wont be to much. They will just have more tools in their chest. And if this winds up being to much you could always tailor it down if you need to.

[Raif]

Something my DM did for my wizard recently that you could use for this was allow for the following.

The player takes his total number of spells known, adds up their spell level and uses that point pool to buy extra spells for the spell-book. I can still only prepare so many per day as the class rules state but I have more options each morning to choose from.

So say you have 2 lv 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells and 1 lv 3 spell

Thats is 2 + 4 + 3 = 9 points to spend so they can either buy 9 more level 1 spells or 3 more level 3 spells. IT will give the player more options but if you stick to the so many spells prepared per day rules the power gap wont be to much. They will just have more tools in their chest. And if this winds up being to much you could always tailor it down if you need to.

That doesn't particularly work for sorcerer as all the spells they know are always prepared, which is the issue with sorcerer that is being discussed that they don't have enough.

Wizards can know a massive amount of spells, but prepare a certain amount per day and can change it per day.

Sorcerers know only a limited amount of spells and what they know is automatically prepared and can only be changed on level up.

[TheUser]

Without this limitation Sorcerers overshadow other casters greatly.


Recommendations:
1) Splash 1 level of Bard and swap out your level 1 spells. This provides 4 level 1 spells which is a bump up from the standard 1 per level of sorcerer. If you're feeling brave you can opt to take it all the way to level 3 Bard for Valor which still provides 6 spells known ranging up to level 2, along with medium armor and jack of all trades (works on counter spell and telekinesis!). This strategy has the added benefit of not disrupting your spell slot progression either.

2) providing items that give spells; hat of disguise, glass staff of defense, gem of seeing etc.

3) have them play a different class to see what losing metamagic vs versatility feels like (wizard or cleric imho).

[Davrix]

That doesn't particularly work for sorcerer as all the spells they know are always prepared, which is the issue with sorcerer that is being discussed that they don't have enough.

Wizards can know a massive amount of spells, but prepare a certain amount per day and can change it per day.

Sorcerers know only a limited amount of spells and what they know is automatically prepared and can only be changed on level up.

Ah i forgot that part, sorry its late for me.

*Checks the PH*

Ok so simple solution

Spells known in the PH Increase spells known by one each level until it caps at 20. This will put them a little ahead of the game, leave them at half of the wizards spells known pool and roughly around the same but a little less then a wizard at lv 20 who with a int of 5 would have 25 spells prepared

Its not the best solution but any higher would, like others have said take away the power from say a wizard. As it is this unbalances it a little but if its not AL who cares itsyour table.

[TheUser]

Ah i forgot that part, sorry its late for me.

*Checks the PH*

Ok so simple solution

Spells known in the PH Increase spells known by one each level until it caps at 20. This will put them a little ahead of the game, leave them at half of the wizards spells known pool and roughly around the same but a little less then a wizard at lv 20 who with a int of 5 would have 25 spells prepared

Its not the best solution but any higher would, like others have said take away the power from say a wizard. As it is this unbalances it a little but if its not AL who cares itsyour table.

This will actually LOWER spells known from levels 1-11 so I would advise against it.

I would recommend giving the player +1 spells known per tier of play;
this means +1 at levels 1-4,
+2 spells known at levels 5-10,
+3 at levels 11-16
and +4 at level 17+ (+4 total, NOT +1, then 2 more then 3 more after that, 1 per tier).
EDIT: formatting

[Davrix]

This will actually LOWER spells known from levels 1-11 so I would advise against it.

I would recommend giving the player +1 spells known per tier of play;
this means +1 at levels 1-4,
+2 spells known at levels 5-10,
+3 at levels 11-16
and +4 at level 17+ (+4 total, NOT +1, then 2 more then 3 more after that, 1 per tier).
EDIT: formatting


How is it going to be lower?

At lv 1 it goes from 2 known to 3
At lv 2 it goes from 3 to 4
and so forth until you get to 20 spells known which would be at lv 18 and cap it there which is still 5 more total then they would normally have and offering 1 extra spell known per level at the start.

[TheUser]

How is it going to be lower?

At lv 1 it goes from 2 known to 3
At lv 2 it goes from 3 to 4
and so forth until you get to 20 spells known which would be at lv 18 and cap it there which is still 5 more total then they would normally have and offering 1 extra spell known per level at the start.

I misunderstood; thought you meant 1 known per level

so 1 at 1, 2 at 2 etc.

[Morollan]

I agree that the number of spells known does feel very limiting, especially at lower levels. I think the idea of a 'domain' list of added spells is quite good without being overpowered. Adding even 1 spell every other level up to 9th is a significant boost (it's a 50% boost on spells known at 9th level) but if they are specific spells based on a theme that is suited to the character and agreed with the DM then I think it could work.

[Davrix]

I agree that the number of spells known does feel very limiting, especially at lower levels. I think the idea of a 'domain' list of added spells is quite good without being overpowered. Adding even 1 spell every other level up to 9th is a significant boost (it's a 50% boost on spells known at 9th level) but if they are specific spells based on a theme that is suited to the character and agreed with the DM then I think it could work.

Ah i think ive worded myself badly here i don't mean to double the spell amount

they get +1 spells known at lv 1 and that was it so they are always essentially one level ahead of what they are at

So at lv 9 they would be at 11 spells known vs 10 Its a little more without going overboard.

[Morollan]

Ah i think ive worded myself badly here i don't mean to double the spell amount

they get +1 spells known at lv 1 and that was it so they are always essentially one level ahead of what they are at

So at lv 9 they would be at 11 spells known vs 10 Its a little more without going overboard.

I was actually referring to the idea that Raif proposed earlier in the thread about a 'domain' list. I see it as being similar to the warlock's expanded spell list but only 1 spell per level and this actually does add to the number of spells known. You could have a number of different domains based on themes such as fire, ice etc with a single additional spell known at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th levels.

For example, the Ice theme could be:

1st: Ice Knife
3rd: Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
5th: Sleet Storm
7th: Ice Storm
9th: Cone of Cold

[Raif]

I was actually referring to the idea that Raif proposed earlier in the thread about a 'domain' list. I see it as being similar to the warlock's expanded spell list but only 1 spell per level and this actually does add to the number of spells known. You could have a number of different domains based on themes such as fire, ice etc with a single additional spell known at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th levels.

For example, the Ice theme could be:

1st: Ice Knife
3rd: Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
5th: Sleet Storm
7th: Ice Storm
9th: Cone of Cold

This is always my preferred solution to this issue and it adds to the "theme" of the subclass. The spells don't have to be super powerful, but just flavorful like Fog Cloud or Create/destroy water. For example for storm sorcerer it allows them to get Call Lightning, which there is still no reason they shouldn't have it.

[TheUser]

This is always my preferred solution to this issue and it adds to the "theme" of the subclass. The spells don't have to be super powerful, but just flavorful like Fog Cloud or Create/destroy water. For example for storm sorcerer it allows them to get Call Lightning, which there is still no reason they shouldn't have it.

How about because quicken spell and call lightning is bonkers OP? Coupled with the fact you can use empowered spell with it and you have an absurd amount of damage output.

[Raif]

How about because quicken spell and call lightning is bonkers OP? Coupled with the fact you can use empowered spell with it and you have an absurd amount of damage output.

The only reason they don't have it at the moment is because WoTC didn't want to set a precedent with new printings having domain spells while old ones did not - stated from when Mearls did a video of creating a giant soul sorcerer. Link to the video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogjdX4LxqCs)

Quoting someone else who stated it better:

WotC considered giving the storm sorcerer a set of free spells to handle this, but they decided against it because that would feel like a straight upgrade, and might pressure WotC to try and errata the PHB to make things more even. They were heavily against changing the PHB for a change that isn't very significant.


Also, 3d10 (16 avg) on a bonus action is not "bonkers OP" when you consider that it is a 3rd level spell + 2 sorcery points per bonus action usage + concentration when you have clerics who can use Spiritual weapon at 3rd level and have 2d8+spellcasting modifier (14 avg with a 5Wis) and can crit with no concentration and no additional resources spent to use it.

To empower that spell, depending on DM ruling, would be either 1 more spell point for the entire casting or 1 point for every subsequent use of Call Lightning, upping the power of Call Lightning to 18(?)ish.

That would be 3 spell points per turn to use another action with quicken and empower. Is that good? Sure. Bonkers OP? Not in my opinion.

[Morollan]

How about because quicken spell and call lightning is bonkers OP? Coupled with the fact you can use empowered spell with it and you have an absurd amount of damage output.

Why would you bother using quicken spell on Call Lightning? Okay, it reduces the initial casting time to 1 bonus action, which is nice, but every subsequent turn it would still take your action (not a bonus action) to call down another bolt:

"On each of your turns until the spell ends, you can use your action to call down lightning in this way again..."

I'd also take issue over anyone trying to empower the damage on subsequent rounds without paying more sorcery points to do so.

[Azazel_Unbound]

I'm really liking the domain idea, as it gives it a small expansion and may expand on a desired theme. Thanks Playgrounders!

[TheUser]

The only reason they don't have it at the moment is because WoTC didn't want to set a precedent with new printings having domain spells while old ones did not - stated from when Mearls did a video of creating a giant soul sorcerer. [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogjdX4LxqCs"]Link to the video.[/URLI]




You're confusing two seperate things. Storm sorcerers don't get domain -spells- beecause it overshhadows other origins.

They don't get call lightning specifically because its horrendous with quicken spell

Quoting someone else who stated it better:



Also, 3d10 (16 avg) on a bonus action is not "bonkers OP" when you consider that it is a 3rd level spell + 2 sorcery points per bonus action usage + concentration when you have clerics who can use Spiritual weapon at 3rd level and have 2d8+spellcasting modifier (14 avg with a 5Wis) and can crit with no concentration and no additional resources spent to use it.

To empower that spell, depending on DM ruling, would be either 1 more spell point for the entire casting or 1 point for every subsequent use of Call Lightning, upping the power of Call Lightning to 18(?)ish.

That would be 3 spell points per turn to use another action with quicken and empower. Is that good? Sure. Bonkers OP? Not in my opinion.



Why would you bother using quicken spell on Call Lightning? Okay, it reduces the initial casting time to 1 bonus action, which is nice, but every subsequent turn it would still take your action (not a bonus action) to call down another bolt:

"On each of your turns until the spell ends, you can use your action to call down lightning in this way again..."

I'd also take issue over anyone trying to empower the damage on subsequent rounds without paying more sorcery points to do so.

You guys are forgetting that the wording of the spell allows you to effectively get two uses of the effect if you cast it as a bonus action.

Quicken cast 3d10 -> standard action 3d10

And every turn thereafter you can deal 3d10 AND cast a spell with quicken because using your action to activate call lightning doesn't count as "casting a spell"

So first turn you cast is 6d10 damage for a 3rd level slot and 2 sorcery points...

The turn after you can shell out another 3d10 and a fireball for 8d6....

4 sorcery points to effectively do 4 rounds of damage in just two.

If you think that's fair and balanced I'm not sure what to tell you...

[DarkKnightJin]

You're confusing two seperate things. Storm sorcerers don't get domain -spells- beecause it overshhadows other origins.

They don't get call lightning specifically because its horrendous with quicken spell

Quoting someone else who stated it better:






You guys are forgetting that the wording of the spell allows you to effectively get two uses of the effect if you cast it as a bonus action.

Quicken cast 3d10 -> standard action 3d10

And every turn thereafter you can deal 3d10 AND cast a spell with quicken because using your action to activate call lightning doesn't count as "casting a spell"

So first turn you cast is 6d10 damage for a 3rd level slot and 2 sorcery points...

The turn after you can shell out another 3d10 and a fireball for 8d6....

4 sorcery points to effectively do 4 rounds of damage in just two.

If you think that's fair and balanced I'm not sure what to tell you...

It also eats through available resources with the quickness, too.
Those Sorcery Points don't come back until a Long Rest. And unless you want to keep sacking out spell slots to get more points to cast Bonus Action spells, with each use of such costing another 2 SP to do..
You're gonna be casting just cantrips or relying on the action to call down another bolt of Lightning for your damage fairly quickly.

That candle would burn twice as bright.. but also half as long.
Maybe shorter, since that Sorcerer just painted a MASSIVE bullseye on their back by showing that they need to be taken out pronto.

[EvilAnagram]

It also eats through available resources with the quickness, too.
Those Sorcery Points don't come back until a Long Rest. And unless you want to keep sacking out spell slots to get more points to cast Bonus Action spells, with each use of such costing another 2 SP to do..
You're gonna be casting just cantrips or relying on the action to call down another bolt of Lightning for your damage fairly quickly.

That candle would burn twice as bright.. but also half as long.
Maybe shorter, since that Sorcerer just painted a MASSIVE bullseye on their back by showing that they need to be taken out pronto.

After putting out four rounds worth of spell damage in two rounds, with two slots, there's not going to be much left to hit that bullseye. Yeah, you're not doing that every combat, but putting out 60+ points of damage over a malleable area of effect in 12 seconds is... impressive.

[Citan]

Honestly, I am open to either.


Most of it is that they feel the number is too low.


Adding a handful of extra spells in a similar manner to paladin oaths/cleric domains doesnt break anything. Even half that like xanathar’s rangers will do the trick.
If you wanted to get more drastic you could add in new features or even overhaul the whole thing, but it’s really up to you.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?537049-Sorcerer-Rework
Hi!

I'd also go with Kane0's suggestion of following some of ideas of this thread.
You could also search the forum history for threads suggesting "Domain-like" extra spells, there have been a handful in the past.

Or if you don't want to brainstorm or analyse existing work, you could just do the following.
1. Allow them to learn a 3rd metamagic at level 6.
2. Give them additional number of spell known equal to CHA.
3. Allow them to swap a number of spell known with others from the list every long rest, up to half-proficiency (rounded up or down depending on your taste).
4. Allow them to ritual cast the relevant spells, fluffing that ability as you like. ;)

This should give your players some leeway without jeopardizing game balance in any way (not that the risk would be significant in the first place ^^).

[Zalabim]

If you think that's fair and balanced I'm not sure what to tell you...
Unless you're hitting multiple enemies in the 5' radius AoE, that's only 3d10 more damage than a sorcerer casting firebolts instead, for the cost of concentration and a 3rd level spell slot. It's a distinct improvement, for a lot of reasons, but it's not something they've avoided giving the sorcerer. They still get Sunbeam later on, for example.

[Raif]

You're confusing two seperate things. Storm sorcerers don't get domain -spells- beecause it overshhadows other origins.

They don't get call lightning specifically because its horrendous with quicken spell


Except that the origin UA of storm sorcerer had call lightning as one of its domain spells. Thats the only way it ever had access to it. They removed them because it having domain spells would have overshadowed current printings of sorcerers, not because said spells where bonkers op.

And no, I'm not confusing 2 things.

[TheUser]

Unless you're hitting multiple enemies in the 5' radius AoE, that's only 3d10 more damage than a sorcerer casting firebolts instead, for the cost of concentration and a 3rd level spell slot. It's a distinct improvement, for a lot of reasons, but it's not something they've avoided giving the sorcerer. They still get Sunbeam later on, for example.

Well if there isn't more than 1 target being hit there's very little reason to be using call lightning at all.

However, by level 11 when firebolts are dealing 3d10 damage (and the combo is only doing an additional 3d10 as you state) the sorcerer will have level 5 slots; the combo now costs the same # of sorcery points but has the potential to do 10d10 on the first turn and unlike sunbeam can be done multiple times per day (even more when you recall that sorcerers can synthesize 5th level slots).

Sunbeam is balanced because it is once per day and cannot be upcast to increase output...in fact if both are using a level 6 slot Call Lightning will do more damage and outpaces it further as slot level increases....

I hate to derail the thread by focusing on this one thing but if you're going to grant domain spells to a sorcerer save yourself the headache and make sure they are spells already on the sorcerer list.

[samcifer]

One spell Combo I came up with as a sorcerer is using Dragon's Breath and quickening other spells, primarily AoE spells that do have damage on a successful save.

Imagine using a quickened Fireball, Shatter, Vitriolic Sphere or Burning hands, then using Dragon's Breath for your regular action. That's at least 6d6 worth of saving throw damage during a single turn with half-damage on a save and that's with using DB at its lowest casting level. Granted it's a small amount of AOE range, but that's pretty good. Using Fireball or Shatter or another large AoE then running in and throwing out a DB attack can really put the hurt on enemies and you can do it during multiple rounds. There IS risk to using this as the DB attack only has a range of 15', but it can be a great way to end a battle.