Paladin build

[Ethernil]

I was trying to brainstorm some builds based on paladin. As in the actual class, not cleric that can be like a paladin or sorcerer gish or paladin 1 wizard 19. Dips and prcs are fine. Only 3.5 no PF.

2 of said ideas:

1)paladin 5 - pious templar 2 - divine crusader 1 - fist of raziel 10(progressing divine crusader casting) last 2 levels i don't know. Maybe something that can add another domain to the divine crusader spell list? it has some 1st level palading spells mostly for rhino rush since it has full smite progression and along with the charging smite acf it should do some decent damage.

2)paladin 5 - fist of raziel 10(advancing palading casting) last 5 i have no idea. Sword of the arcane order to add arcane spells to your list. In this build i can't decide if mystic fire knight acf or turn undead with some divine/devotion feat would be better.

3)something you have to suggest?

[Venger]

in the vein of paladin but good, check out the a game paladin (https://web.archive.org/web/20150919074158/http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376)

[emeraldstreak]

If you're interested in having an optimized mount, DMG - Unusual Mounts - choose a flying mount of (paladin level-4 )CR - eventually choose Adult Gold Dragon - further advance the dragon per the MM without adding enough HD to raise its CR.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not the most optimal build but I like paladin 4/ crusader 1/Ruby Knight vindicator 10/ X 5 where X is something advancing divine spellcasting (rarely make it past 15~16).

[Falontani]

Paladin, Crusader, and Soulborn are all in the same vein so as to be good replacements for each other.
Prestigious Paladin can be added to many classes to really give the flavor of a paladin to another class.

[Venger]

never use soulborn for anything, it is a terrible class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

never use soulborn for anything, it is a terrible class.

Eh, it's alright for entry into iron soul forgemaster. Less good than incarnate, obviously, but passable. Really for entry into any PrC that subsumes the base class can be workable.

There are no bad classes, only classes you haven't figured out what to do with. See iron chef in the playground for details.

[Falontani]

Eh, it's alright for entry into iron soul forgemaster. Less good than incarnate, obviously, but passable. Really for entry into any PrC that subsumes the base class can be workable.

There are no bad classes, only classes you haven't figured out what to do with. See iron chef in the playground for details.

omg yahs I want an Iron Chef with some base classes, just to see what we can come up with!

[Venger]

omg yahs I want an Iron Chef with some base classes, just to see what we can come up with!

check out the junkyard challenge, it will do things like that sometimes.

[Metahuman1]

Consider going small size and using crusader instead of paladin, and wild cohort or something of the sort at level 6 for a mount. Maybe think about Dipping Bard for the first few levels and optimizing Inspire Courage and Knowledge Devotion with Song of the White Raven to pay for Power Attacking while mounted charging.

[Ethernil]

Is special mount the best paladin class feature? If yes then probably a small race with a medium mount would be best since we do a lot of dungeon crawling and fighing in buildings. Maybe the typical ubermount build starting with a riding dog and swaping for a medium size gold dragon at level 9 with the dragon cohort feat.

I said i don't want a class that looks like paladin... especially tob since the group has never used it before and i don't want to build something crazy so that i wont have any problem getting a warblade eternal blade allowed in a future game, group is REALLY low op.Like fighter getting the cold endurance feat in order to wear a blue ice armor he found.

As for the typical not too short guy in shining armor wielding a big 2handed weapon, any better suggestion? Of my 2 ideas above which would be better?
I tried to run the a game paladin from the dm and he said i can't be a part of 2 orders for rp reasons.

I forgot to mention, there are few magic markets and they sell pretty crapy stuff, not on demand. With gather information, paying extra etc we might manage to find something actually good like a belt of strength but even in that case we have to roll for the chance of finding it and up to a single item per group member every time we visit a major city.

[Metahuman1]

Special mount is one of the better ones. The other good ones are:


Turn Undead, but only because of feats you can take that use turn undead attempts to do things that do not involve turning undead.

Divine Grace: But only if you have a really excellent Charisma Score and modifier.

Paladin Spell Casting: Really it's not great unless you have full splat book support for feats to use with it, and for spells because a paladin automatically knows all Paladin spells in the game of a level he is able to cast. And with full splat support there are some gems, more so with access to things like Battle blessing (Spend turn undead to cast as a free action.) Sword of the Arcane Order (Access to Wizard spells if you have the stats for it.) and of course, Divine Metamagic (Spent turn undead attempts to use metamagic feats on spells instead of higher level spell slots.)

And to a lesser extent, the immunities (Of note is that the Paladin Of Freedom variant form Unearthed Arcana/The SRD, has an excellent immunity that's better than other variants, and further, has a better written paladin code that allows more flexibility in how to play the character with out actually falling or ceasing to BE a paladin.), and Detect Evil.






That said, frankly, it's still I'd wager more efficient to spend a feat on Leadership or Wild Cohort for a medium ridable companion, play a crusader or a crusader with some Bard levels for Inspiring courage, and then just go along with Power Attack and the Mounted Combat line.

It's like a Paladin with out the parts that suck about being a Paladin, or needing to jump through nearly as many hoops.

[Anthrowhale]

I like your first build, but I'd suggest modifying it to be Paladin 5/Pious Templar 1/Fist of Raziel 1/Divine Crusader 1/Fist of Raziel 9/Witch Hunter 1/Divine Oracle 2

This gives you charisma to saves twice, Mettle, and the extra good evasion that works in armor. You also have two domains to cast from (Oracle and the Divine Crusader's chosen domain) and hit level 9 spells at ECL 16.

Good domains here might include Spell (for anyspell), Magic (AMF/Disjunction), Animal (Shapechange), Transformation (the crazy Eberron one if you can get it), Luck (Miracle), Protection (AMF/Mind Blank), Travel (Fly/Teleport), and War (which is extra mean with the Holy Warrior feat).

Consider picking up the feat Channel Charge so you can use your Divine Crusader spell slots to cast any L8- spell that you buy a staff of, even if the staff has only 1 charge (i.e. 1/50th the normal price).

Consider using DMM[Persistent Spell] to use up your Turn Undead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If ToB is out and you're really set on fist of raziel then the best suggestion I can make is to be sure you nab battle blessing from CC and slide a level of contemplative from CD in there somewhere. Spell domain's anyspell can give you a crap-ton of mileage.

[Ethernil]

I don't know how anyspell is supposed to work... do you need a spellbook? Do you need 15 minutes preparation for every spell you use it to cast?

[Venger]

I don't know how anyspell is supposed to work... do you need a spellbook? Do you need 15 minutes preparation for every spell you use it to cast?

you need a scroll or spellbook, and you spend 15 minutes casting it each time, but it's not of preparation, it's casting time, as listed in the spell description.

[Piggy Knowles]

I know paladin gets a bad rap, but it's actually a fine class for low- to medium-op games if you build around it properly. The biggest piece of advice I can give you is to not spread yourself too thin; the paladin gets a lot of disparate abilities that are kind of eh unless you focus on them heavily. So pick a main focus, and maybe a secondary, but don't try to do everything.


Special Mount: Paladin's mount progression is fantastic and there are various ways to make it even better. If you think riding a dragon sounds fun, this is the one for you. There are various ways to optimize your mount, the best of which generally involve the Devoted Tracker feat and Halfling Outrider. Be careful, though; depending on your choice of supermount, it may not be able to join you everywhere, and you'll be playing a decidedly disappointing character without your mount. Requires more build resources than just about any of the other options, but it can be a lot of fun in the right campaign.
Smite Evil: If you're playing a lot of evil foes, this is a good one to optimize, and since you seem interested in Fist of Raziel I suspect that's kind of what you're leaning toward. Basically just look up ways to tack on as many different smiting abilities as is humanly possible. Can be combined with charging or turn undead, but not usually both.
Turn Undead: Not really the actual turning ability, but with Devotion feats and Divine Might you can use your Turn Undead attempts to power yourself up a decent amount. Try a desert half-orc with the half-orc paladin substitution levels for the righteous fury ability with Divine Might and Law Devotion as a nice starting point.
Charging: There are two ways to go about being a good paladin charger: either play a small character on a medium-sized mount and focus on charging with a lance, or give up your mount for the charging smite ability and enjoy a flat damage boost on charges, and just add on Power Attack and your standard multipliers. Easy, clean, effective.
Spells: Paladin spells are mostly kinda eh (they aren't bad but you get so few of them, they have low CL and they key off a super awkward stat), but Battle Blessing is a great feat. So find a way to expand your spell list heavily and get as many extra spells as you can get your greedy little mitts on. Can have surprisingly good payoff for relatively minimal resources (Battle Blessing is a feat you'll probably want regardless, and expanding spell lists is easy.) A bit DM-dependent, as Battle Blessing lets you cast paladin spells as a swift action. Are wizard spells prepared in paladin slots via Sword of the Arcane Order paladin spells for the purpose of Battle Blessing? How about domain spells added from classes such as Divine Oracle or Contemplative? I don't know, but I bet you can get people arguing for hours if you ask! Better to just cut the conversation short and go straight to your DM if this is something you're interested in.

For example, I might build a charge-focused paladin with a minor in smiting and turn undead by staying straight paladin and going with...

Human, Paladin 20
1- Power Attack, Law Devotion
3- Improved Bull Rush
6- Shock Trooper
9- Leap Attack
12- Divine Might
15- Battle Blessing
18- Awesome Smite/Practiced Spellcaster

ACFs: Charging Smite (PHB2), Curse Breaker (Complete Mage, not really required for the build but in every game I've ever played enchantments have been way more common than diseases)

Clean, easy, decent for a lower-op game. You've got all the usual charging goodies, made a lot better at level 5 when Charging Smite kicks in. Law Devotion gives you a decent attack bonus (especially useful at low levels to mitigate Power Attack's penalties) while Divine Might helps boost your damage. Charge, leap, kill things. When you're not killing things, use your magic evil radar to help spot hidden foes and ruin campaigns by accidentally revealing the bad guy early, and diplomacy to pretend you're more than just a murderer with divine backing. You have a big sword and a winning smile, what more do you need?

[Kelb_Panthera]

you need a scroll or spellbook, and you spend 15 minutes casting it each time, but it's not of preparation, it's casting time, as listed in the spell description.

This is pretty close. The casting time and preparation time overlap, that is to say that casting anyspell and preparing the spell from a book or scroll are the same action. You have to do it spell by spell and if you prep' from a scroll that scroll is expended.

The key is to select versatile spells and/ or spells that don't care about CL/ save DC.

[Ethernil]

you need a scroll or spellbook, and you spend 15 minutes casting it each time, but it's not of preparation, it's casting time, as listed in the spell description.

Any idea how to get a spellbook i can add spells to?

[Venger]

Any idea how to get a spellbook i can add spells to?

buy one or steal one from an npc wizard after you kill him. spellbooks have a value as treasure, so let your gm know so he can come up with one as your encounter loot.

[Demidos]

I think some people might be getting a bit too far ahead of themselves, given there is a fighter who has taken Cold Endurance in the party. While Piggy Knowles' build (for example, not trying to call anyone out) is definitely a solid low-medium op build, I don't think it is low op by the standards of the OP, and I think it might be quite beyond the optimization scope of this party.

I would recommend the A-game paladin, but ditch the spells (there's an option where you can get bonus feats, read bonus smites) and just being part of the Harmonious Knights (or just taking the smite to song feat). That should fix the issues of illegal RP requirements. If you really want to push your character you can take a dip in marshal for charisma to dex checks, and give your party a boost to initiative, stealth, and sleight of hand.

The reason i'm suggesting this is because it is still a strong build, but it boosts the entire party, keeping everyone at a consistent damage output, which is good for inter-party happiness, and easier than forcing everyone else to spend dozens or hundreds of hours going through D&D books and guides to play their characters, which some people simply don't enjoy.

One more comment -- if you really want an oversized weapon, there's a feat called Monkey Grip that lets you do that. It's not an great feat, but it's probably more on the level of the other players. Just a thought.

[Doctor Awkward]

Notes on Sword of the Arcane Order.

-You need the requisite Intelligence to cast spells you prepare, if they are wizard spells. This means a minimum of 14 Intelligence on an already MAD character class.
-The Spellcraft DC to prepare from a borrowed book is 15 + spell level. So without levels in wizard, you'll need a +9 to your Spellcraft check in order to prepare 4th level spells and run no risk of messing it up.
-You have to worship Azuth or Mystra-- though Mystra isn't really much of a downside since her patrons clearly get the best class features and substitution levels in the Forgotten Realms source books.
-The feat is unclear if the spells now count as paladin spells, or if they are simply wizard spells occupying paladin spell slots.
-The feat is also unclear as to whether the spells are divine or arcane after they are prepared. If the you and the DM decide they are arcane, then you qualify for things that require arcane spellcasting (Vecna-Blooded, eternal wands, prestige classes). But you are subject to arcane spell failure, and they don't interact with Divine Metamagic or any other divine-only class features.

I've never been much of a fan of this feat. Leaves too much up to personal interpretation.

[The Viscount]

For an oversized weapon, I'd recommend buying the strongarm bracers over Monkey Grip. They don't have penalties and don't cost a feat.

I'll say that for paladin mount the drakkensteed gets underestimated. It has better stats than a warhorse, has flight, and gets full benefits of paladin's mount except for command similar creatures (but was anybody actually using that?)

[Malimar]

Battle blessing (Spend turn undead to cast as a free action.)
I suspect you have Battle Blessing confused for something else (perhaps DMM Quicken). Battle Blessing works automatically on all spells, no Turn uses needed; Standard becomes Swift and Full Round becomes Standard.

[Ethernil]

That fighter will be playing a cleric this game, there will also be a sorcerer or wizard and a roguelike. I will be the big stu oh the frontline. If the serenity feat from dragon compedium is accepted should i get it? And i never said i wanted an oversized weapon, just a big twohander like a greatsword, maul or something. Maybe a fullblade/knight sword(or whatever that a&eg sword that gets mounted bonus damage like a lance is called) if i actually wanted to waste a feat on it.

[Faily]

One of my groups have had 2 Paladins that were *Paladins* (not Crusader or re-fluffed Clerics).

Shackled City had a Dwarven Paladin of Moradin. Build was Paladin 5 (Charging Smite instead of Mount)/ Pious Templar 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Hammer of Moradin 10.
War of the Burning Sky had an Elf Paladin of Corellon Larethian. Build was Paladin 5 (Charging Smite, and gave up spellcasting for a bonus feat)/ Pious Templar 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 10/ Contemplative 1 (switching Protection domain to Protection Devotion). Sheet here (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=444948)

So the chassis was Paladin, and the prestige classes ontop of that continued boosting Paladin-esque abilities, like either Smite (or bonus to attack and damage against certain enemies) or Lay on Hands.

[Metahuman1]

Another route you could go would be Cracking open Tome of Magic and using Binder. There are some Vestiges that can be combo'd there that can make a better Paladin than the actual Paladin class. While still getting access to a lot of the iconic stuff like mounted combat supremacy on demand with out having to over invest in it, Detect evil at will, turning undead and even more access to Smiting Evil. While also leaving room for cool stuff like armor that doesn't inhibit movement, tactical teleporting to be were you need to be to protect people, Pounce, out of combat healing with protection from diseases and poisons, Gaze attacks, Social skill use, all kinds of cool stuff.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Any idea how to get a spellbook i can add spells to?

The rules regarding magical writing specify wizards as they go on about how spells get recorded -but- the wu-jen, archivist, and chameleon all use the same rules for recording their own spells. That being the case, I'm of the opinion that any character having used anyspell to prepare an arcane spell from an appropriate scroll should be able to record it into their very own spellbook per the arcane magical writing rules.

Personally, I'd probably disregard the references to "wizard" in that particular block of text and let any character with the skill in spellcraft record any spell to a book, though they'd still have to be of the appropriate class to actually prepare a spell so recorded. That's firmly in house rule territory though.

[RoboEmperor]

The rules regarding magical writing specify wizards as they go on about how spells get recorded -but- the wu-jen, archivist, and chameleon all use the same rules for recording their own spells. That being the case, I'm of the opinion that any character having used anyspell to prepare an arcane spell from an appropriate scroll should be able to record it into their very own spellbook per the arcane magical writing rules.

Personally, I'd probably disregard the references to "wizard" in that particular block of text and let any character with the skill in spellcraft record any spell to a book, though they'd still have to be of the appropriate class to actually prepare a spell so recorded. That's firmly in house rule territory though.

I had a thread about it recently, and the RULES COMPENDIUM directly state that only classes that use spellbooks may write spellbooks. So unfortunately no, an anyspell cleric cannot write spells into his spellbook.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I had a thread about it recently, and the RULES COMPENDIUM directly state that only classes that use spellbooks may write spellbooks. So unfortunately no, an anyspell cleric cannot write spells into his spellbook.

Well that's just plain stupid. Spellcraft will let you read spells off of scrolls of every kind, out of any spell or prayer book, and even out of the gestures and words of literally any spellcaster. It'll let you pick out details of a spell from its aura and visible effects. Write in arcane notation like any wizard, wu-jen, archivist, or chameleon? Nah. That just wouldn't make sense. :smallannoyed:

[RoboEmperor]

Well that's just plain stupid. Spellcraft will let you read spells off of scrolls of every kind, out of any spell or prayer book, and even out of the gestures and words of literally any spellcaster. It'll let you pick out details of a spell from its aura and visible effects. Write in arcane notation like any wizard, wu-jen, archivist, or chameleon? Nah. That just wouldn't make sense. :smallannoyed:

I know right! That was actually one of my arguments. But stupid rules compendium.

[The Viscount]

That fighter will be playing a cleric this game, there will also be a sorcerer or wizard and a roguelike. I will be the big stu oh the frontline. If the serenity feat from dragon compedium is accepted should i get it? And i never said i wanted an oversized weapon, just a big twohander like a greatsword, maul or something. Maybe a fullblade/knight sword(or whatever that a&eg sword that gets mounted bonus damage like a lance is called) if i actually wanted to waste a feat on it.

Serenity is a pretty nice feat. If your table allows the book, I'd recommend you weigh it against Dynamic Priest, which allows you to use Cha for number needed to cast spells and bonus spells. It doesn't apply to saves, but looking through the paladin list there are very few spells that actually provoke the enemy to roll saves.
It basically comes down to whether you'd prefer Cha focus or Wis focus. Charisma makes for better Diplomacy, and may be more useful depending on other classes. It will also kick in for opposed Charisma checks for charm. Wisdom makes for better Sense Motive and effectively would add to will saves twice.

[Freelancespy87]

I'm actually going to upload my Paladin OHKO build soon you might be interested.

[Ethernil]

What devotion feats are good? I tend to find animal devotion very usefull, flight on demand, speed boost or strength in a low magic item world.

[Metahuman1]

Travel devotion is quite nice as well. Never underestimate the value of being able to move as a swift action, or of being able to move AND full attack, or of being able to move AND full attack while not charging and thus not dealing with those restrictions, or if you also have pounce, of being able to Move, Full Attack AND move away on your turn.

[flamewolf393]

Warlock/paladin was an interesting build I made once, one of my favorite ever. Dark ones own luck for charisma to saves doubling with the paladins charisma to saves is hilarious. Combining smite with eldritch blast does some amazing damage. Beguiling influence adds +6 to all your social skills and you are most likely the party face already so thats good.

Warlock has so many awesome abilities even in just the least invocs that can boost a paladins fighting/roleplay style.

[Ethernil]

Warlock/paladin was an interesting build I made once, one of my favorite ever. Dark ones own luck for charisma to saves doubling with the paladins charisma to saves is hilarious. Combining smite with eldritch blast does some amazing damage. Beguiling influence adds +6 to all your social skills and you are most likely the party face already so thats good.

Warlock has so many awesome abilities even in just the least invocs that can boost a paladins fighting/roleplay style.

I have found hybrid builds to range from weak to useless without use of questionable rulings. Warlock has already a slow invocation advancement although straight classed should be stronger than paladin. A hexblade dip would have been better for a charisma to save boost. Anyway i think i got my answer on the first page. I now to plan feats and a list of useful spells.

[Metahuman1]

Depends on the hybridization.




Regardless, you've had 2 or 3 very sound viable suggestions that don't require paladin, and the best recommendations possible if you do use the named class specifically for the role anyway, already offered.

[Ethernil]

I said i want the actual class and not something similar refluffed, something like a mental exercise, since optimizing too much when the rest of the party isn't would lead to the not-so-fun scenarios of either the dm making combat harder to challenge me which would hurt the others or making it easy so that they can feel strong but then i will be too much. We re talking blaster wizards and clerics who actually spend their turn healing and using turn undead for it's origianl purpose with not much knowledge of spells outside the phb. Prestige paladin was also denied as the dm read the clause about prestigious classes replace standard ones in the setting. I did receive a good answer i will use in the first page about a modification of my idea using divine crusader.

[Metahuman1]

Play a Strongheart Halfling or a Gnome.


Take Paladin of Freedom if you can.


Prioritize Buying a Riding Dog trained for War, and your Str, Con, Wisdom and Charisma stats, in that order. Buy a Lance.

Take 2 flaws, I recommend Shakey, a -2 to Ranged Attacks, and whatever else that's relatively low impact. Vulnerable is a -1 to AC, you can probably survive that.


Take Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, and when you have a 4th Feat, Power attack.


Other feats to look at: Improved Initiative, Battle Blessing, Travel Devotion, Animal Devotion, True Believer if you have a god who happens to have a good Relic item (Reliquary Holy Symbols can be neat if you have enough stuff that uses Turn Undead Attempts, and Kord has a neat Belt that gives some neat bonuses.) or perhaps Divine Metamagic.




Use your spells to supplement what your doing in and out of combat.

Your decent at fighting in a style of hit and move away before they can hit you back, and while your probably not going to oneshot anything particularly tough barring a very lucky nat 20 at the right time, your hitting hard enough that sensible enemy's will want to deal with you, and not attack your friends as much till they have.

You'll have tolerable survivability.

And spells should also give you the ability to rev up the hurt on enemy's that really need it (boss fights usually.), or to have some tricks outside of just stabbing things to break out. And the healbot cleric, fireball wizard, whatever rogue and whatever fighter or barbarian should still feel useful.





I think that's as good as it's going to get then.