Invisibility Assassination

[alex1g]

I got a group that uses invisibility to kill my npcs. I'm trying to explain to them that my npcs can make a spot check of DC 20 to spot them and with a charging modifier from one of my players likes to do which is -20 to the DC Spot check it would be a DC 0. Also since they are constantly flying as with Fly Spell they say that they aren't making any noise. Since they are doing a surprise attacks, they usually win they're initiative which makes it basically impossible for my NPCs to not be flat footed and since they have cover as per invisibility I can't make a AoO in that round.
I could throw these tactics back at them but I feel that would be a cheap way to assassinate them. Is there a argument or tactic I could make to balance these cheap assassinations without meta gaming my npcs with magic buffs????

[Segev]

You have to make a Hide check to not be detected while invisible. You do benefit from not needing cover. Being invisible also gives you a +20 to hide if you're moving. Charging does give you a -20 penalty to Hide. Technically, they still can make a Hide check at their normal Hide modifiers.

Listen checks are unaffected by Fly. They must make Move Silently checks; they suffer no penalties for any sort of "noisy ground" since they're flying, but they still don't get a freebie.

Either way, their targets get Spot and Listen checks to detect them. I'd go ahead and ignore the Listen and just go with Spot; it avoids needless dice rolling and arguments.

The PCs roll Hide (d20+dex+skill ranks+whatever else, +20 for being invisible-but-moving and -20 for charging). Foes roll Spot. If the foes' Spot beats the PCs' Hide, the foes notice them. Still haven't pinpointed them.

You should use Move Silently and Listen checks for when the PCs are moving into position and approaching the foes. If the foes hear them, then they'll be on guard and not surprised. If they don't, then give them the spot checks both when PCs first come into line of sight, and again when they charge. Remember that, when the PCs aren't charging, they don't suffer the -20 charging penalty to hide. But they still must be attempting to hide! This means they need to roll. Taking 10 is not an option in combat circumstances.

Guard dogs have scent. This would result in detecting the PCs even when invisible and flying. ...though with a maximum 60 ft. range (when downwind from the creature being smelled), that may not help against PCs readying to charge from 60+ feet away.



Perhaps the biggest thing you can do is have more enemies. The PCs can't stay invisible after attacking unless they're using greater invisibility, and even then, enemies can do things like glitterdust or throwing flour or dust around. Having enough enemies that they can't kill them all in the opening round of attacks would mean they're now visible and the fight can progress.

Have enough encounters, too, that burning spells on making the whole party invisible before every fight - let alone maintaining it long enough to explore while invisible - is draining to impossible.

[Venger]

I got a group that uses invisibility to kill my npcs. I'm trying to explain to them that my npcs can make a spot check of DC 20 to spot them and with a charging modifier from one of my players likes to do which is -20 to the DC Spot check it would be a DC 0. Also since they are constantly flying as with Fly Spell they say that they aren't making any noise. Since they are doing a surprise attacks, they usually win they're initiative which makes it basically impossible for my NPCs to not be flat footed and since they have cover as per invisibility I can't make a AoO in that round.
I could throw these tactics back at them but I feel that would be a cheap way to assassinate them. Is there a argument or tactic I could make to balance these cheap assassinations without meta gaming my npcs with magic buffs????

By definition, anything you do will be metagaming. The question is how to do it without being unfair to your players.

First of all, there is no such thing as a "charging modifier" that lowers the spot dc by 20, so get that out of your head.

Next, hitting a dc 20 spot check will only let your npcs be aware of the presence of an invisible creature. it won't let them actually pinpoint the creature.

there is nothing in the text of the fly spell that says it eliminates noise, so it does not alter the listen DCs at all.

invisibility does not give cover. it gives total concealment. these are different things.

you can't make an aoo because you're flat-footed, not because of anything to do with total concealment.

throwing these tactics back at them is absolutely a cheap way to assassinate them since as the gm, you have unlimited resources, so you wouldn't be proving anything. it's good that your instinct is not to do this.

what method is your party using to be invisible all the time? I'm assuming it's wands. once the initial attack goes off and the pc kills its target, invisibility (assuming it's regular and not greater we're talking about) turns off. what is happening at this stage that the npcs can't form some kind of counterattack?

are you just giving your pcs one single bad guy to kill with no henchmen surrounding him? if so, that's easy to fix. instead of one overwhelming monster, give them one challenging monster and a bunch of weakling henchmen, or an equal number of mid-level bad guys. this way they can't just get their invisible sneak attack off against the one and only enemy involved in play.

if you're interested in the metagaming route, give your pcs a fair shake to figure it out before they go with their invisibility strategy. if any of them have knowledge, you can say that one of the pieces of information they pick up is "this monster has the scent ability, allowing him to pinpoint foes without the use of his sight" or similar. this will let them know they ought to try something different before they commit to the invisibility strategy instead of you whipping out after the fact that an npc "just happened" to have see invisibility running when the pcs came to kill him, which would be cheap metagaming.

this said, invisibility is pretty common in the game, and past mid levels, it's reasonable now and then for enemies to have some general tactics that will foil it, such as wands of faerie fire or glitterdust. the advantage of these is after the pcs kill the bad guy, they can claim these items as loot and keep them in case any enemies try invisibility tactics against them. this way they will have a fair shake at being able to circumvent the strategy themselves, so if you wanted to throw an invisible attacker at them occasionally, they'd have the resources to meaningfully interact with him.

[Long_shanks]

See invisibility? True seeing? Blindsight? Antimagic field?
There are numerous ways to negate invisibility. If they always use the same trick, then they would become quite notorious, and their enemies would start using some of the aformentioned methods to defend themselves.

Your scenario relies on the fact that the PC have the informational edge and thus can setup the surprise round (and have the time to buff up as well). If you turn the tables on that point, at least they wouldn't have the time to buff and would guarantee a fairer fight.

Also, I hope that they aren't just killing random NPCs for fun; if so you have a murderhobo situation that will not be resolved in game. Communication is always key, so talk to them.

[Venger]

See invisibility? True seeing? Blindsight? Antimagic field?
There are numerous ways to negate invisibility. If they always use the same trick, then they would become quite notorious, and their enemies would start using some of the aformentioned methods to defend themselves.

Your scenario relies on the fact that the PC have the informational edge and thus can setup the surprise round (and have the time to buff up as well). If you turn the tables on that point, at least they wouldn't have the time to buff and would guarantee a fairer fight.

Also, I hope that they aren't just killing random NPCs for fun; if so you have a murderhobo situation that will not be resolved in game. Communication is always key, so talk to them.
these are all textbook things to avoid, as they are cheap metagaming.

the npcs just happened to have the thing that defeats the strategy you like to use? also unlike say a wand of glitterdust or faerie fire, the pcs can't harvest it once they kill the bad guy.

if they kill everyone, then where would that information come from? again, good gms shouldn't metagame.

[Falontani]

Blindsense, Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, Mindsight, Dweomersight, Detect Magic, See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, and a watchman that knows what to look for can all pierce invisibility.

As for paying them back:

Burrow/Earth Glide creatures can both sneak up on your party with relative ease. Examples:
Earth Elemental CR 1+ (there is an earth elemental to fit your need)
Remorhaz CR 7
Purple Worm CR 11

Invisible Creatures can sneak give them a taste of their own medicine, and doing it without a mage is a +! Examples:
Imp CR 1, invisible flyer that can put points into UMD and rain wand charges at them
Quasit CR 1, invisible flyer that sounds like an imp but isn't one
Invisible Stalkers CR 7, invisible flyer
Pixies CR 4-5, hey look another invisible flyer!

And finally we get to the mighty dragons. With CRs that run the gambit, environments that run the gambit, blindsight, and flight they can truly be anywhere you need them to be. Your group consists of what is called an Adventurer. Monsters seek out adventurers to grow their wealth when they believe they will win. So any Chromatic dragon that wishes for a huge boost in wealth for their growing hoard has reason to actively seek these creatures out. A smart dragon played correctly can easily kill your party.

Oh and a bonus, just because there is a random bandit that was killed doesn't mean that bandit didn't have family. At some point include a group of bandits with some guy that wasn't a bandit. This bandit will pick up his weapon to attempt to defend himself from the sudden ambush. He or she will die. He or she happens to have a father that is a powerful mage, or a brother, or a sister. Someone with the knowledge, power, and capabilities to learn who did it and why. One who is hellbent on vengeance. Bonus points if you have a paladin and this creature is good!

These are all examples from the Monster Manual. Without really searching, I am sure if you look you can find a few interesting creatures to challenge your group.

__
Note I do agree with what has been said as I typed this up, dont throw a strategy down just to counter them, but find a way to make it fit in game. Another example of magical items: Brazier of Detect Magic

[Segev]

First of all, there is no such thing as a "charging modifier" that lowers the spot dc by 20, so get that out of your head.


Incorrect!


You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)

[Long_shanks]

these are all textbook things to avoid, as they are cheap metagaming.

the npcs just happened to have the thing that defeats the strategy you like to use? also unlike say a wand of glitterdust or faerie fire, the pcs can't harvest it once they kill the bad guy.

if they kill everyone, then where would that information come from? again, good gms shouldn't metagame.

Yeah, I missed the line at the end of the OP, my bad. I was just naming "solutions" to invisibility that popped into my head.

Still, something has to give, be it additional monsters/npc as enemies or more resources. Invisibility is a common mid-level tactic. We don't know what level the group is, but invisibility and assassination means at least 6-7. Ennemies in that range that have acces to the resources I named (well, maybe not true seeing or antimagic field, obviously) or you named should be fairly common.

I think that without knowing the specifics of the game (what were the enemies, what were their tactics, what level are the PCs, how many time have they done this, etc.), we can't really offer any more than we have so far.

[Venger]

Yeah, I missed the line at the end of the OP, my bad. I was just naming "solutions" to invisibility that popped into my head.

Still, something has to give, be it additional monsters/npc as enemies or more resources. Invisibility is a common mid-level tactic. We don't know what level the group is, but invisibility and assassination means at least 6-7. Ennemies in that range that have acces to the resources I named (well, maybe not true seeing or antimagic field, obviously) or you named should be fairly common.

I think that without knowing the specifics of the game (what were the enemies, what were their tactics, what level are the PCs, how many time have they done this, etc.), we can't really offer any more than we have so far.

Reading the whole post often provides interesting and useful information.

I don't know the specifics either, but I'm making an educated guess OP is just having 1 enemy present for the pcs to kill. in this case, adding a larger number of weaker enemies will likely obviate the problem.

invisibility is available starting at 3, and as you said, true seeing or amf would be grossly inappropriate for enemies to have at this level.

hopefully OP will provide information like level, op level, and party composition soon so we can give more helpful advice.

[Daefos]

these are all textbook things to avoid, as they are cheap metagaming.

the npcs just happened to have the thing that defeats the strategy you like to use? also unlike say a wand of glitterdust or faerie fire, the pcs can't harvest it once they kill the bad guy.

if they kill everyone, then where would that information come from? again, good gms shouldn't metagame.

In a world where Invisibility is a real thing that even low-level wizards can do, it is entirely reasonable for some enemies, particularly the more intelligent or paranoid ones, to take steps to protect themselves from it. That is especially true if word of the PCs' tactics have gotten out. But even if it hasn't, you don't need every enemy to be packing a wand of Glitterdust to counter Invisibility. Give the bandits a few guard dogs, who can pick up the PC's scent. Heavy foliage could reduce the bonus to Hide checks granted by Invisibility because you can't move without displacing something. Maybe the guy they want to kill is behind the bane of invisible characters everywhere: a closed door. All of these challenge the PC's tactics without negating them. They provide an additional obstacle that both enhances the players' sense of satisfaction if they succeed and gives the DM a little more control over the situation. And sometimes, just sometimes, the wizard really did just decide to prepare Glitterdust that morning. It happens.

The idea that making any NPC who happens to be able to counter something the PCs do is badwrongfun is ridiculous. The PCs should be challenged by throwing a monkey wrench in their plans now and then. Don't do it all the time, don't do it when it doesn't make sense, don't do it out of DM spite, but don't not do it.

[alex1g]

Concealment right, I meant concealment instead of cover. But
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Also I was thinking of Listen checks to the DC of Spots for
Running or charging Move Silently check result –20

And a typical setup for my "Boss" battle is 1 boss surrounded by a couple of lackeys. See invisibility, True seeing, Blindsight, and Antimagic field, are things I use seldomly; Makes the campaign a farce if I have that for too many boss encounters.

[Doctor Awkward]

I got a group that uses invisibility to kill my npcs. I'm trying to explain to them that my npcs can make a spot check of DC 20 to spot them and with a charging modifier from one of my players likes to do which is -20 to the DC Spot check it would be a DC 0. Also since they are constantly flying as with Fly Spell they say that they aren't making any noise. Since they are doing a surprise attacks, they usually win they're initiative which makes it basically impossible for my NPCs to not be flat footed and since they have cover as per invisibility I can't make a AoO in that round.
I could throw these tactics back at them but I feel that would be a cheap way to assassinate them. Is there a argument or tactic I could make to balance these cheap assassinations without meta gaming my npcs with magic buffs????

1. Invisibility provides concealment, which allows creatures to make Hide checks. Noticing them then becomes the chargers Hide check vs the targets Spot check.
2. Nothing in the Fly spell says it negates noise. Armor still clinks. Air rushes around them while they move their weapon through it. Enemies are still entitled to Listen checks to notice them (remember armor check penalties for the charger).
3. Surprise rounds only occur when one side is completely unaware of the other side at the beginning of combat. If a creature makes his Spot check to notice the invisible charger, the surprise round does not occur and initiative is rolled normally.


Also Invisibility Purge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityPurge.htm).

It is available to all clerics at the same time as Invisibility is for wizards.


For level 9 clerics and higher, a Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) spell can be set up on any important religious site the party is attempting to sneak into to do their killings, and can be keyed with an Invisibility Purge that will affect all who enter the area, or certain creatures of the casters choosing.

There is nothing "meta-gamey" about NPC's preparing for potential attacks from invisible foes in a world where Invisibility is a spell that exists.

[heavyfuel]

It is available to all clerics at the same time as Invisibility is for wizards.

Invisibility is available 2 levels earlier but yeah, pretty good advice

[Fizban]

Insufficient data. Classes, levels, build details, and most importantly: what kind of encounters are you giving them that they can just wipe with invisibility spam? Letting the players dictate the terms of engagement means they win, especially if you're holding yourself to some idea of "fairness"- the CR system already gives the PCs an expected 4v1 or equivalent or greater advantage most of the time.

[Jack_Simth]

And sometimes, just sometimes, the wizard really did just decide to prepare Glitterdust that morning. It happens.Just sometimes? It's a crazy-useful spell. It's a pretty serious debuff, especially for it's level. Save or blind, no SR? A lot of Sorcerers will take that one. The fact that it counters invisibility as well is mostly just icing.