changes to Holy Water, wise or unwise?

[LAiR master]

I am experimenting with the rules concerning the creation of holy water. They seem to be written to limit potential abuse:
“A Cleric or Paladin may create holy water by performing a Special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.”
So, to create holy water, you must:

be a cleric or paladin
perform a 1 hour ritual
use 25 gp of powdered silver
expend a 1st-level spell slot

What are these requirements meant to protect against? What unintended consequences could arise if, say, I allowed a cleric to perform the ritual without expending a spell slot or 25 gp?

Holy water appears to be weaker than any 1st level cleric spell (guiding bolt puts it to shame), and one can deal the same amount of damage with a greatsword or maul (2d6+mod). I hope to gain a better understanding of why these rules are in places and the pitfalls and changing them.

I suspect I am underestimating its value.

[Tanarii]

Non-spellcasters can use it.

It can be stockpiled.

[Toadkiller]

And those limits - imaginary time and money - allow a DM to throttle production as much or as little as they care to do so.

[Tiadoppler]

“A Cleric or Paladin may create holy water by performing a Special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.”
So, to create holy water, you must:

be a cleric or paladin
perform a 1 hour ritual
use 25 gp of powdered silver
expend a 1st-level spell slot


The spell in question is called Ceremony, and it's written out in Xanathar's. It's a ritual, so it can be cast without expending a spell slot in 70 minutes.

It's a divinely blessed potion that's similar in effect to Acid or Alcehmist's Fire, therefore it has a similar cost in GP, and it requires someone who's on good terms with a divine being to cast it.


Divine Soul sorcerers and Magic Initiates could also cast this spell, although what kind of sorcerer would wastespend a Spell Known on Ceremony, I don't know.

[Tanarii]

Divine Soul sorcerers and Magic Initiates could also cast this spell, although what kind of sorcerer would wastespend a Spell Known on Ceremony, I don't know.
An non-adventuring NPC? Although they wouldn't necessarily be specifically classed, but instead based off the class/feat.

[TheYell]

It's a divinely blessed potion that's similar in effect to Acid or Alcehmist's Fire, therefore it has a similar cost in GP, and it requires someone who's on good terms with a divine being to cast it.

Divine Soul sorcerers and Magic Initiates could also cast this spell, although what kind of sorcerer would wastespend a Spell Known on Ceremony, I don't know.

Actually the Warlock's incantation Book of Ancient Secrets says in relevant part "Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class's spell list (the two needn't be from the same list)."

They don't have to have good terms with a Divine Being to cast it.

As to who'd bother...it would suit my theme to make Unholy Water, and be amusing to offer weddings and funerals in the name of my Great Old One patron.

[Tiadoppler]

Actually the Warlock's incantation Book of Ancient Secrets says in relevant part "Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class's spell list (the two needn't be from the same list)."

Good point, and Bards can poach it too.

I should say: I think it's reasonable that by default the casters who most easily learn the spell are those who are directly hooked into a divine power.

[BoxANT]

Man... the UA version of Ceremony did not consume the gold when you made holy water.

My cleric had a nice little side business in Chult.

Stupid Xanathar's.

[Cespenar]

The alchemical items in D&D are always so absurdly costed.

Just make it 5 gp instead of 25. Nothing will "get out of hand". It's just silly.

[Unoriginal]

The cost is to prevent players from throwing a bathtub-sized bottle of the stuff at demons & vampires.

[Anonymouswizard]

The cost is to prevent players from throwing a bathtub-sized bottle of the stuff at demons & vampires.

Pretty much this (although honestly, if I had PCs willing to acquire that much powered silver I'd let them bless it all in an hour).

It's like why alchemist's fire and acid are so expensive, they're very effective hammers. By the time you can reasonably afford a steady supply better hammers tend to become available (such as fireball). But for holy water there's generally nothing wrong with allowing PCs to make as much as they want, except on those rare occasions it circumvents an entire boss fight.

[Cespenar]

It's nothing that couldn't be done by alcohol and any non-fire resistant enemy, for much, much cheaper.

[Unoriginal]

It's nothing that couldn't be done by alcohol and any non-fire resistant enemy, for much, much cheaper.

Holy water damages enemies that are typically resistant to a lot of things.

Also, by 5e rules, the quantity of oil/alcohol doesn't really change the amount of damage, while the quantity of alchemist's fire/acid/holy water does.

[Sigreid]

AFB but if I remember right the cost to buy holy water is the same as the cost to make it. That's the really silly bit.

[Millstone85]

AFB but if I remember right the cost to buy holy water is the same as the cost to make it. That's the really silly bit.Because the temple doesn't make a margin? I don't know, maybe they sell only to the faithful, or to those who have made a donation.

[Unoriginal]

Because the temple doesn't make a margin? I don't know, maybe they sell only to the faithful, or to those who have made a donation.

The only reason to want holy water is to destroy undead and fiends. Most good deities would see as that as doing them a favor.

[Sigreid]

I'd perhaps allow for a magic item, a holy cistern or something that allows for the creation of holy water without spending silver.

[nickl_2000]

AFB but if I remember right the cost to buy holy water is the same as the cost to make it. That's the really silly bit.

Not really if you think about the point of Holy Water in 5e. Holy Water is used in damaging undead creatures and doesn't do much else. Any temple that is making holy water likely wants the undead creatures re-deaded and is therefore offering it at cost to do so.

[Typhon]

Not really if you think about the point of Holy Water in 5e. Holy Water is used in damaging undead creatures and doesn't do much else. Any temple that is making holy water likely wants the undead creatures re-deaded and is therefore offering it at cost to do so.


The only reason to want holy water is to destroy undead and fiends. Most good deities would see as that as doing them a favor.

I think many here aren't thinking about the fact that some religions, even in games, do use holy water for rituals and ceremonies. PCs and their players tend to only see a weapon. No ceremonial need, no holy water. Kind of like no fireworks, no firearms.

Besides, no one said the holy water of a god of death would be a good thing to use on anyone. Also outside of a rulebook, who says you need silver? Pretty sure in previous editions it was basically casting bless on water.

[nickl_2000]

I think many here aren't thinking about the fact that some religions, even in games, do use holy water for rituals and ceremonies. PCs and their players tend to only see a weapon. No ceremonial need, no holy water. Kind of like no fireworks, no firearms.


Even in the case where holy water is being used for religious reasons, why would a church want to charge extra for that? A church wants to propagate, so an offering holy water at price for this would still make perfect sense.




Besides, no one said the holy water of a god of death would be a good thing to use on anyone. Also outside of a rulebook, who says you need silver? Pretty sure in previous editions it was basically casting bless on water.

There are two official ways to create holy water

XGE


Ceremony 1st-level abjuration (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (25 gp worth of powdered silver, which the spell consumes)

Thus silver.


PHB

A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot

Either way it costs silver to make now.



Any church that wouldn't want to harm fiends of undead would simply not sell holy water to adventurers that they didn't know.

[PopeLinus1]

Ok, guys how does this sound, the decanter of endless holy water.

[nickl_2000]

Ok, guys how does this sound, the decanter of endless holy water.

Sounds like a decent Rare to Very Rare item :smallcool:

[Sigreid]

Ok, guys how does this sound, the decanter of endless holy water.

Can we call it the Holy Fire Hose?

[Zombimode]

I hope to gain a better understanding of why these rules are in places and the pitfalls and changing them.

The actual answer is legacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWater.htm).

Difference is the 1 hour casting time. I've no idea where this comes from. Maybe to counteract the fact that you don't need to "prepare" Bless Water?

[JackPhoenix]

The only reason to want holy water is to destroy undead and fiends. Most good deities would see as that as doing them a favor.

Also as a material component for some spells, like Protection from Evil and Good.

[Tanarii]

Also as a material component for some spells, like Protection from Evil and Good.
So ... does that mean the spell has a (hidden) material component cost, and cannot be cast using a Focus instead?

[nickl_2000]

So ... does that mean the spell has a (hidden) material component cost, and cannot be cast using a Focus instead?

No, the PHB is very specific about this. Is there is no material cost listed then you can use a focus. If there is no cost listed it is assumed that you have it in your material pouch as well.

[JackPhoenix]

No, the PHB is very specific about this. Is there is no material cost listed then you can use a focus. If there is no cost listed it is assumed that you have it in your material pouch as well.

Holy water has specified cost in the equipment list. In addition, it is consumed during the casting, so it couldn't be replaced anyway.

[Beelzebubba]

The cost is to prevent players from throwing a bathtub-sized bottle of the stuff at demons & vampires.

Or, like my Druid was planning to do:

Crafting several bandoliers full of vials of the stuff, Conjuring 4 Apes (who are proficient with throwing rocks), and having them basically be a squad of anti-Undead grenadiers.

[Unoriginal]

Or, like my Druid was planning to do:

Crafting several bandoliers full of vials of the stuff, Conjuring 4 Apes (who are proficient with throwing rocks), and having them basically be a squad of anti-Undead grenadiers.

Talk about Gorilla Warfare.

[Tiadoppler]

Holy water has specified cost in the equipment list. In addition, it is consumed during the casting, so it couldn't be replaced anyway.

A Holy Water (flask) costs 25gp and weighs 1lb. The material component of Protection from Evil and Good is not a specified quantity/value of holy water, so it could be merely a droplet. Alternatively, you could cast it with (a small quantity of) powdered silver and iron, again with no gp cost.

Even if you had to expend 25gp of Holy Water to cast Protection from Evil and Good, you could choose to use 0gp of (handwaved in your materials pouch) powdered silver and iron instead.

If you can cast the spell using 0gp of powdered silver and iron, you can instead choose to use a focus to replace that material.

[JackPhoenix]

A Holy Water (flask) costs 25gp and weighs 1lb. The material component of Protection from Evil and Good is not a specified quantity/value of holy water, so it could be merely a droplet. Alternatively, you could cast it with (a small quantity of) powdered silver and iron, again with no gp cost.

Even if you had to expend 25gp of Holy Water to cast Protection from Evil and Good, you could choose to use 0gp of (handwaved in your materials pouch) powdered silver and iron instead.

If you can cast the spell using 0gp of powdered silver and iron, you can instead choose to use a focus to replace that material.

Protection from Evil and Good consumes the component. It doesn't matter if it has a price or not, consumed components can't be replaced with focus or component pouch (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/15/material-component-and-spellcasting-focus/).

[Tiadoppler]

Protection from Evil and Good consumes the component. It doesn't matter if it has a price or not, consumed components can't be replaced with focus or component pouch (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/15/material-component-and-spellcasting-focus/).

Oh, right. Good point. Still, 0gp is the cost for casting if you use an arbitrarily small amount of powdered silver+iron.

[Tanarii]

Protection from Evil and Good consumes the component. It doesn't matter if it has a price or not, consumed components can't be replaced with focus or component pouch (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/15/material-component-and-spellcasting-focus/).
Huh. Pretty sure JC got this one wrong. The actual rule has the clauses separated by paragraph, and so reads as two separate clauses: 1 Focus is no costs components indicated only. 2. A separate unrelated rule that you must use consumables in each casting.

In other words, the consumables rule is just telling you that its, y'know, consumed if you use it.

From the PHB:
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.

[Tiadoppler]

Huh. Pretty sure JC got this one wrong. The actual rule has the clauses separated by paragraph, and so reads as two separate clauses: 1 Focus is no costs components indicated only. 2. A separate unrelated rule that you must use consumables in each casting.

In other words, the consumables rule is just telling you that its, y'know, consumed if you use it.

From the PHB:
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.

This can be "fixed" by stating that you've added an arbitrarily small quantity of powdered silver and iron to your component pouch (which is, you know, a pouch with stuff in it). When you cast this spell, you pull out a pinch of the metals and expend it. Yes, it's expended. Yes, it was stored in your component pouch before you cast the spell. Because it's free, the specific cost/method can be generally handwaved unless you're playing in a setting where silver is super rare or iron doesn't exist.

[Sigreid]

This can be "fixed" by stating that you've added an arbitrarily small quantity of powdered silver and iron to your component pouch (which is, you know, a pouch with stuff in it). When you cast this spell, you pull out a pinch of the metals and expend it. Yes, it's expended. Yes, it was stored in your component pouch before you cast the spell. Because it's free, the specific cost/method can be generally handwaved unless you're playing in a setting where silver is super rare or iron doesn't exist.

If I remember correctly the PHB states that the cost of living expressly includes repairing and maintaining your gear, which to me would include restocking your component pouch.

In the end though, both the pouch and the focus are clearly meant to relieve players from having to track worthless components like a small piece of leather or a spider web.

[JackPhoenix]

Huh. Pretty sure JC got this one wrong. The actual rule has the clauses separated by paragraph, and so reads as two separate clauses: 1 Focus is no costs components indicated only. 2. A separate unrelated rule that you must use consumables in each casting.

In other words, the consumables rule is just telling you that its, y'know, consumed if you use it.

From the PHB:
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.

I actually read it as part of the same rules, regardless of paragraphs (if they were meant to be separate rules, it would be better to have them in bullet points, paragraph is propably only for better readability), that you may replace the component if it's not consumed and doesn't have cost, but you *must* provide it if it is consumed. I was about to post that, but decided to check SA, because it was a bit ambiguous.

Looks like RAI agrees with my reading, just like with Conjure x spells before.

[Tanarii]

I actually read it as part of the same rules, regardless of paragraphs (if they were meant to be separate rules, it would be better to have them in bullet points, paragraph is propably only for better readability), that you may replace the component if it's not consumed and doesn't have cost, but you *must* provide it if it is consumed. I was about to post that, but decided to check SA, because it was a bit ambiguous.

Looks like RAI agrees with my reading, just like with Conjure x spells before.
The RAW is very unclear, so I can totally either reading, despite which one my brain automatically jumped too.

And if this was SA, I'd say "yeah, clearly RAI". But JC tweets often seem to be off the cuff answers without looking closely at something, and he seems to be inclined towards strict rules-lawyering in them, not sensible RAI. That's a personal view of course.

Or maybe I'm just thinking that way because I don't agree with what he's tweeted. :smallamused:

[JackPhoenix]

The RAW is very unclear, so I can totally either reading, despite which one my brain automatically jumped too.

Or maybe I'm just thinking that way because I don't agree with what he's tweeted. :smallamused:

Totally agree on that. I immediately jumped to the opposite reading, that why I was checking SA afterwards. And I'm biased too, I tend to track all components on my characters even if I have the pouch (been since before 3.5e was a thing), and I generally pack pouch, focus (or multiple) and perhaps even separate components hidden amongst other gear at the same time and consider some material components consumable even if they are not marked as such... sand or rose petals for Sleep, for example, but not the cricket.

[sithlordnergal]

The big draw to holy water is being able to use it when you lack your normal radiant damage. It also gives a nice thing to use Catapult on when facing undead. But honestly, the edge cases of:

1) Facing things with Undead Fortitude when your Paladin and Cleric are away, and you have no other way to deal radiant damage

Or

2) Wanting to Catapult holy water at undead

Are so few and far between it isn't really an issue. Even the ones who plan around using Catapult to launch things like vials of acid, holy water, ect. have to really optimize to use an object as a bonus action and still have the spell...and even then you can do so much better.

[Coidzor]

Holy water has specified cost in the equipment list. In addition, it is consumed during the casting, so it couldn't be replaced anyway.

Cost for an entire flask, not an unspecified quantity for a spell.

If you want to figure out the cost of a few drops of Holy Water extrapolating from the cost of a pint of it, by all means, it's your time to spend how you so choose.


Protection from Evil and Good consumes the component. It doesn't matter if it has a price or not, consumed components can't be replaced with focus or component pouch (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/15/material-component-and-spellcasting-focus/).

Sounds like he got confused to me, and thought they were asking about expensive material components.


Holy water damages enemies that are typically resistant to a lot of things.

Also, by 5e rules, the quantity of oil/alcohol doesn't really change the amount of damage, while the quantity of alchemist's fire/acid/holy water does.

I don't recall anything that says or implies that multiple pints of oil don't stack to increase the additional amount of fire damage a creature takes the next time they take fire damage. The only real limitation is with oil burning on the ground and how the oil somehow dries up in 1 minute upon exposure to air.

The rules are completely silent on the subject of alcohol, so it's less that the rules say that the quantity doesn't change the amount of damage so much that the rules are silent and it's all up to individual DMs to make a ruling.

[Unoriginal]

I don't recall anything that says or implies that multiple pints of oil don't stack to increase the additional amount of fire damage a creature takes the next time they take fire damage. The only real limitation is with oil burning on the ground and how the oil somehow dries up in 1 minute upon exposure to air.

Yes, but as you'll note, the damage from the fire is due to the oil burning. 1d6 per 5ft square.



The rules are completely silent on the subject of alcohol, so it's less that the rules say that the quantity doesn't change the amount of damage so much that the rules are silent and it's all up to individual DMs to make a ruling.

Fair enough.

[Coidzor]

I am experimenting with the rules concerning the creation of holy water. They seem to be written to limit potential abuse:
“A Cleric or Paladin may create holy water by performing a Special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.”
So, to create holy water, you must:

be a cleric or paladin
perform a 1 hour ritual
use 25 gp of powdered silver
expend a 1st-level spell slot

What are these requirements meant to protect against? What unintended consequences could arise if, say, I allowed a cleric to perform the ritual without expending a spell slot or 25 gp?

Holy water appears to be weaker than any 1st level cleric spell (guiding bolt puts it to shame), and one can deal the same amount of damage with a greatsword or maul (2d6+mod). I hope to gain a better understanding of why these rules are in places and the pitfalls and changing them.

I suspect I am underestimating its value.

One consequence of that is that a level 1 cleric could generate wealth, unless you lower the price of Holy Water. Spending 2 copper on a flask, they can then sell that for 12.5 gp. So an 8 hour day of generating holy water would yield a net profit of 99.84 gp. If they also support an entire 5 person party at a modest lifestyle, that's a daily net profit of 94.84 gp.

Assuming a party of 1 heavy armor, 2 medium armor, and 2 light armor users, they could afford the best tiers of mundane armor after a little over a month. Or take 4 days and upgrade the light armor users to Studded Leather and put the heavy armor user in Splint, bumping up to 10 days if they did that and bought a set of 2 silvered rapiers, 1 silvered mace, 1 silvered longsword, and 1 silvered greatsword.

Alternatively, it means that every 5 hours they set aside to make Holy Water turns into 1 basic Potion of Healing and some change. If they set aside 2 hours a day while traveling for holy water production, then every ten days they'd have generated 249.6 gp of net profit, just shy of 5 potions of healing.