Rope Trick Bunker of Doom?

[Schwann145]

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Rope_Trick_Bunker_of_Doom

I don't understand the criticism here. Seems like all that's being described is the spell, working as intended; a safe place for a party to rest in the middle of hostile territory.
Any thoughts?

[Fizban]

Sure, the 2nd level Rope Trick is intended to allow 8 people to rest invisibly and extradimensionally in perfect safety wherever you want. When the 3rd level Tiny Hut only allows 9 people to extremely visbily avoid weather conditions with no defenses against intruders aside from obscuring sight, and the 4th level Secure Shelter only allows 8 people to rest in a very visible stone hut.

Yup, that's totally the correct interpretation of Rope Trick.

There's really nothing else to it. The char-op use of the spell is obviously out of line compared to every other spell which actually has the desired use, to provide shelter. Some people don't care, so they allow it, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense.

[Ashtagon]

It's interesting to note that the 3.5 version (and presumably other 3.pf.xx version) of the spell has a duration of one hour per level, so that by 9th level is is perfectly good for the eight hour rest plus one hour spell prep. In AD&D (both 1st and 2nd edition), it had a duration of two turns per level (i.e., 20 minutes per level). That's good for avoiding a wandering monster encounter or navigating a pit/tower/cliff obstacle, but it won't ever be useful for a long rest.

Basically, it's the 3e revision that broke the spell.

[Schwann145]

Aaahh, I see.
I was thinking they were trying to imply something was broken with the spell mechanics, but what's broken is the spell level. Got it. Thanks!

[Fizban]

It's interesting to note that the 3.5 version (and presumably other 3.pf.xx version) of the spell has a duration of one hour per level, so that by 9th level is is perfectly good for the eight hour rest plus one hour spell prep. In AD&D (both 1st and 2nd edition), it had a duration of two turns per level (i.e., 20 minutes per level). That's good for avoiding a wandering monster encounter or navigating a pit/tower/cliff obstacle, but it won't ever be useful for a long rest.

Basically, it's the 3e revision that broke the spell.
Arg, the list of spells borked by 3.0-3.5 is already too long, I don't even have 2e books to look for those!

[Eldariel]

Arg, the list of spells borked by 3.0-3.5 is already too long, I don't even have 2e books to look for those!

Basically every spell that's out of line in 3.X was broken by the conversion. And many of the "Insanely strong"-category spells like Grease, Glitterdust and company received direct or indirect buffs, particularly from the changes to how saves work and HP progresses (of course, some spells were also massively nerfed by the same changes, Fireball being perhaps the most iconic of these). It's to the point that in one system revision I just used 3.5 base (with some major rules reworks), except all spells used the AD&D 2e versions instead (spells without AD&D 2e versions were only allowed on a case-by-case basis).

Saved me the trouble of rewriting most of the PHB, though AD&D is far from perfect as well. Still, of all the broken 3.X spells only Shapechange is arguably a problem in AD&D to a similar degree, and it at least has a 1.5K material component (a focus in 3.X) and more stringent restrictions on using spells while shifting shape.

[Kobold Esq]

There is one reason Rope Trick often isn't heavily used in many games, especially at higher levels. To quote the SRD:


Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

[Fizban]

Basically every spell that's out of line in 3.X was broken by the conversion. -snip-
That is extremely interesting, I may have to pick one up then.

[Ashtagon]

In my opinion, one of the more unexpected 2e-3e rule changes that helped break the system is that in 2e, character level (ie caster level) had no effect on the difficulty of the saving throws against your spells. In effect, save-or-dies become less potent because level-appropriate targets had saves good enough to beat the spell just about every time.

[Zombimode]

In my opinion, one of the more unexpected 2e-3e rule changes that helped break the system is that in 2e, character level (ie caster level) had no effect on the difficulty of the saving throws against your spells. In effect, save-or-dies become less potent because level-appropriate targets had saves good enough to beat the spell just about every time.

Eh, kinda but not quite.

Sure, high profile opponents probably make their saves. But lower Level opponents stay relevant much MUCH longer then in 3.5 (and even in 3.5 modules and from my experience DMs fall into the trap of using only few numbers of high-Profile enemies instead of making larger Encounters with mixed Group of stronger and weaker opponents - if you do the later, blasting is actually pretty good).

Personal anecdote: the sencond-to-last Encounter in the old Pool of Radiance game is infamous for throwing 12 Level 8 fighters against you group. The battle is MUCH harder than the actual boss fight (a brass Dragon with about 90hp... it did not last 2 rounds...). A Level 8 fighter has a large ammount of HP, and hits good and hard. Level 8 fighters are a threat to characters of all Levels, especially in such numbers.
Pretty much the only way of beating this Encounter is to spam save-or-loose effects like Hold Person.


Bottom line: regardless of Edition, the best results are achieved by creating encounters of mixed groups.

[BowStreetRunner]

One of the things I believe the 1d4chan discussion attempts to point out is the confusion over the exact shape of the dimensional space and the relative location of the entrance.


Note that the spell does not specify whether the dimensional space is roughly cubical, spherical, or some other shape - it just says it will "hold as many as eight Medium or smaller creatures".
Also, the spell doesn't clarify whether the opening is at the bottom of the space or perhaps one of the sides. You can imagine the rope goes up to the top edge of the space with the side opening centered on the hanging rope, or you can imagine (which I think more people do) that the rope goes up to the top center of the space and hangs through an opening at the bottom. The opening is 3x5, but if it is in the bottom is there a ledge that you can stand on or do you have to hang from the rope to avoid dropping?
Another point is the question of whether you can create the space at the edge of a thin wall or door, climb up one side and then drop down the other.

[Eldariel]

Eh, kinda but not quite.

Sure, high profile opponents probably make their saves. But lower Level opponents stay relevant much MUCH longer then in 3.5 (and even in 3.5 modules and from my experience DMs fall into the trap of using only few numbers of high-Profile enemies instead of making larger Encounters with mixed Group of stronger and weaker opponents - if you do the later, blasting is actually pretty good).

Personal anecdote: the sencond-to-last Encounter in the old Pool of Radiance game is infamous for throwing 12 Level 8 fighters against you group. The battle is MUCH harder than the actual boss fight (a brass Dragon with about 90hp... it did not last 2 rounds...). A Level 8 fighter has a large ammount of HP, and hits good and hard. Level 8 fighters are a threat to characters of all Levels, especially in such numbers.
Pretty much the only way of beating this Encounter is to spam save-or-loose effects like Hold Person.

Well, that also depends on the edition. In 3rd edition, simple Glitterdust would mostly disable a bunch of them and unlike in AD&D, they'd be fairly unlikely to save. Slow too would be much more powerful than the 2e version and Confusion would straight-up wreck them - meanwhile Hold Person is basically whatever since 3e version is single target and allows a new save each round. Same with stacking defenses like AC or miss chances or whatever; in 3e an obsolete level Fighter can fall far enough behind that they only hit on 20s (though the particular Fighters we're talking about have some excellent stats and items so that's less of a problem; IIRC 18/XX Str and +2 Two-Handers).

That's actually a perfect example of an encounter that would be much easier in 3.X than in AD&D (and in tabletop than on a computer due to the kinds of things you need a DM to adjudicate) and showcases all the flaws of the 3e Fighter-class compared to the AD&D Fighter-class. 3e Fighter has a much harder time hitting above their paygrade since AC is steadily increasing and uncapped, is unlikely to make their saves vs. casters because save DCs scale and Fighter save progression sucks, and has much less relative impact each round without heavy duty specialization due to the HP creep of 3e. In 3e in general, mooks are far less efficient unless buffed or optimising their accuracy/effect stats a lot or focusing on autohit effects (Jovocs [MMII] or Ice Beasts [Frostburn] or Drowned [MMIII] or the like). Defenses scale so fast that mook accuracy quickly drops to "nat 20"-levels, at which point they aren't much of a threat. Though that depends on how the characters are building of course - ones that ignore their defenses need to pay slightly more heed to secondary enemies. Now, a big boss buffing a ton of mooks is a different beast entirely and very scary, as are mooks that essentially act as human(oid/monstroid/whatever) shields to block attacks against the big opponent itself.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Eh, kinda but not quite.

Sure, high profile opponents probably make their saves. But lower Level opponents stay relevant much MUCH longer then in 3.5 (and even in 3.5 modules and from my experience DMs fall into the trap of using only few numbers of high-Profile enemies instead of making larger Encounters with mixed Group of stronger and weaker opponents - if you do the later, blasting is actually pretty good).

Personal anecdote: the sencond-to-last Encounter in the old Pool of Radiance game is infamous for throwing 12 Level 8 fighters against you group. The battle is MUCH harder than the actual boss fight (a brass Dragon with about 90hp... it did not last 2 rounds...). A Level 8 fighter has a large ammount of HP, and hits good and hard. Level 8 fighters are a threat to characters of all Levels, especially in such numbers.
Pretty much the only way of beating this Encounter is to spam save-or-loose effects like Hold Person.


Bottom line: regardless of Edition, the best results are achieved by creating encounters of mixed groups.

I think this is one of the under-appreciated changes that came with the 3.x CR system: a lot of adventure writers started writing encounters with far fewer monsters. The change in design philosophies had a pretty big impact on how the game plays out--maybe just as much as the mathematical changes.

As for low level opponents not being threatening to higher level PCs, that is generally a consequence of insufficient design on the part of adventure writers. Sure, PCs will mow through the mooks statted out in Red Hand of Doom by the time they reach level 7 or 8, but it's not really very hard to write mooks who can be a threat. And its not really as though masses of straight from the monster manual level 1 orcs were much of a threat to level 7 characters in 1e/2e either.

[Arael666]

There is one reason Rope Trick often isn't heavily used in many games, especially at higher levels. To quote the SRD:

This. Pretty much no one ever used the spell in my games, since it meant more than half of the party (often everyone) could not enter due to having handy haversacks or bags of holding on them.

[Doctor Awkward]

Step 1. Cast See Invisibility. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeInvisibility.htm)
Step 2. Easily locate Rope Trick window. Paint an "X" on the ground underneath it.
Step 3. Position guards hidden nearby in rotating shifts until the party exits.
Step 3a. Position guards around the window, then cast Dispel Magic and proceed to slaughter the confused, drowsy, and prone party.
Step 4. Players reroll and take time to ponder their place in the world.


Seriously. Ya'll whine too much about everything being broken.
Use the tools the game gives you.

[Andor13]

I seem to recall in Piratecats amazing campaign log the party was abusing ropetrick, so the goblin shaman went around detecting magic until he found a glowy patch of ceiling, then they built a giant fire under it and waited. The party survived, but they learned a valuable lesson. And that was just goblins.

[Elkad]

Step 1. Cast See Invisibility. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeInvisibility.htm)
Step 2. Easily locate Rope Trick window. Paint an "X" on the ground underneath it.
Step 3. Position guards hidden nearby in rotating shifts until the party exits.
Step 3a. Position guards around the window, then cast Dispel Magic and proceed to slaughter the confused, drowsy, and prone party.
Step 4. Players reroll and take time to ponder their place in the world.


Seriously. Ya'll whine too much about everything being broken.
Use the tools the game gives you.

Alternate method. No magic needed.
Step 1: Kobolds track the party to where they disappeared. Kobold witchdoctor makes an educated guess as to what happened. See Invisibility is unneeded, just throw mud and see where it sticks to the sky.
Step 2: Kobolds dig a large pit under the rope. Optionally fill with spikes, hungry tigers, gelatinous cubes, etc.
Step 2a: One or two kobolds gets on top of the window, equipped with a knife or a big pair of scissors or a cross-cut saw.
Step 3: Position archers nearby. Don't even bother to hide. When the rope re-emerges, just enjoy the pinata shoot as the characters either try to swing the rope back and forth to a safe landing point, or drop rocks on them if the characters drop into the pit. While the window kobold reaches underneath and saws at the rope.
Step 4: Players reroll and take time to ponder their place in the world.