Mordenkainen's Tome: what monsters are in it?

[Beechgnome]

UPDATED as of May 2: adds Duergar Warlord, Eidolon and Eidolon sacred statue, Elder Oblex, Star spawn mangler, hulk and seer.
Updated May 4: adds Corpse Flower.
Updated May 8: adds Rutterkin demon, adds Sorrow Sworn: The hungry, The angry, confirms Abashai of five colors.
Update May 11: Adds Alkilith, Maurezhi and Dybbuk demons, Howler, Kruthik, Phoenix, Drow house captain, Oaken Bolter, Clockwork Stone Defender, clockwork frog, Arch-Devil Titivillus, Zariel plus Amnizu and Narzugon devils.
Update May 12: Add Githyanki Gish, Kith'rak.

Now that there have been a few interviews, D&D beyond previews and a Dragon+ article, I thought it would be good to create a thread of all the confirmed monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes and for us to chat about what monsters we would like to see.

I will try to add to this as we learn more stuff, but I might be a bit slow to add links, so if you find something can you throw the link to it when you do?

Also, I hesitate to bring this up, but can we please pretty please not turn this thread into a referendum on:

·What WOTC have or haven’t done right about a) setting neutrality b) alignment c) really anything; or
· Any kings who may or may not have names, and who may or may not, in fact, be kings.

So, what do we know?

All of these come from eith the latest issue of Dragon, from a
Crawford interview: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/jeremy-crawford-and-kate-irwin-mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-tome-foes, D&D Beyond interviews, Mordenkainen Mayhem battles, a Fantasy Grounds preview (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store...?id=WOTC5EMTOF), a Kate Welsh interview and other little tidbits here and there. Hat tip to Envyus, Unoriginal, Millstone85 and everyone else who has unearthed some of this arcana as it has been released:


Allip (a spectral undead, CR 5)
Astral Dreadnaught (CR 21)
Balhannoth (tentacled aberration, CR 11)
Berbalang (little winged Astral plane abberations)
Boneclaw (CR 12, undead I think)
Cadaver Collector (Acheron construct)
Cambion (variants)
Choker (TotYP abberation)
Clockwork frog, Clockwork Stone Defender, Oaken Bolter.
Corpse flower
Demon; Alkilith, Bulezau, Dybbuk, Abyssal Wretch, Maurezhi, Rutterkin, Sibriex
Demon Lord; Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy
Devil; Abashai - Tiamat servants/jailors, (Black, Blue (CR 17) Green, Red, White
Other devils: Amnizu, Narzugon.
Devil, Archdevil; definitely Bael, Geryon, Moloch, Titivillus and Zariel and some but not all of Asmodeus, Dispater, Fierna, Glasya, Levistus, Mammon, Mephistoles
Duergar - different kinds, including Azer, Hammerer, Screamer, Soulblade, Warlord, Xarrorn. Soulblade and Xarrorn appeared in OotA
Eidolon, a CR 12 undead that hides in a CR 0 statue
Eladrin; Winter (+ likely Autumn, Spring, Summer)
Elder elemental; Leviathan, Tempest, +earth, fire? CR 23
Elder Oblex (A memory swiping CR 10 ooze)
Elemental Myrmidon; Air, Earth, Fire, Water - these were in PotA
Elf, Drow; Arachnomancer, House Captain, Inquisitor, Matron Mother, Royal Consort
Elf, Shadar-kai; gloom weaver, Shadow dancer, soul monger
Giff- hippo humanoid blunderbuss weilding planar mercenaries
Gith; Githyanki Gish, Kith'rak, Supreme commander +others?, Githzerai Anarch +others?
Grey Render
Frost salamander
Howler
Iron Cobra
Kruthik
Marut (as it's own thing or an Inevitable?)
Meazel
Nagpa - birdlike former wizards who live in Shadowfell
Nightwalker, CR 20
Ogre; battering ram, bolt launcher
Phoenix
Retriever - a construct or demon?
Skulk
Skull lord
Sorrow Sworn: The Angry, The Hungry, The Lonely, The Lost.
Star spawn; Hulk, Mangler, Seer
Tortle, Tortle druid
Troll; Dire (CR 13) and Spirit (CR 11)
Vampiric Mist - TotYP reprint
Yugoloths; Canoloth (dog-like yugoloths, CR 8), Dergholoth, Merrenoloth (CR 3 boatmen of the River Styx)



So no mention yet, that I am aware of, of higher level Modrons, Slaad or celestials like Archons or Guardinals, all of which would be nice. But still two months of previews to come so I remain hopeful.

Did I miss something? Let me know.

[Envyus]

Next Monday we may find out 8 more monsters.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-mayhem

[Beechgnome]

Next Monday we may find out 8 more monsters.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-mayhem

Dear god, yes. That is awesome.

[Hesh]

I'm hoping for Gem Dragons.

[Nettlekid]

I'm not holding my breath but I'd love to see some of the Elder Evils from 3.5, possibly as examples of Great Old Ones but also to describe their potential threat as campaign-enders. Pandorym was one of my favorite pieces of flavor in all of 3.5, but Father Llymic and Atropus were pretty cool too.

[Millstone85]

I would like to see the kaorti.

They could be reintroduced completely out of left field, as I believe a few monsters in VGtM were. So here is what became of some humanoids who tried to explore the Far Realm. They now wear full bodysuits made of a resin they secrete, without which they can no longer survive the Material. They also coat and close tunnels with the same resin, creating "cysts" in which they can live. Kaorti are driven to spread their condition to others and remake the Material to their liking. Classic themes of assimilation and terraforming.

However, in 3.5, those who would become the first kaorti were working on ancient tablets from an event that gets mentioned in 5e core books.
Ancient elves once pierced the boundary of eons with a vast portal to the Far Realm within a mountain called Firestorm Peak, but their civilization imploded in bloody terror and the portal's location--even its home world--is long-forgotten. And since elven history is one of the major themes of MToF, that would be a fitting link. Maybe they can simplify the lore by retconning the first kaorti into these elves, rather than humans who later walked in their footsteps.

[HMS Invincible]

I'm hoping for more goodies for summoning, especially druid and wild shape.

[Malifice]

Daddy wants more class options.

[Millstone85]

Marut, a construct that seeks out those who would cheat death. (This makes me hope other Inevitables from Mechanus are in the book)The marut will be a true test of what the Shadowfell represents in 5e.

If maruts are described as being at home in the Shadowfell as well as in Mechanus, then the former is retaining some of its reaperland aspect from 4e.

If maruts commonly go to the Shadowfell to destroy the undead but are described with a fundamental distaste for the place, then it isn't.

Similarly, I am very curious of their relationship with the Raven Queen. Do they work for her, with her or against her? The character has new origins, goals and methods, so anything is possible.

[Malifice]

My shadowvar hexblade of the Raven Queen is looking forward to expanded shadowfell and Raven Queen fluff..

[Arkhios]

Apparently there is a picture of a steampunk-ish Giff holding a blunderbuss in the book. Yes, those hippo-humanoids from Spelljammer!

That might suggest there could be a small inclusion of rules for firearms, outside of DMG! And, obviously, stats for Giff. Either as monster or PC-race, or maybe even both!?

(not that I was interested in the race myself, I realize that someone else might be)

Here's a link (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5054-Is-Spelljammer-Coming-To-D-D-5E) for reference.

[Whoracle]

Apparently there is a picture of a steampunk-ish Giff holding a blunderbuss in the book. Yes, those hippo-humanoids from Spelljammer!

That might suggest there could be a small inclusion of rules for firearms, outside of DMG! And, obviously, stats for Giff. Either as monster or PC-race, or maybe even both!?

(not that I was interested in the race myself, I realize that someone else might be)

Here's a link (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5054-Is-Spelljammer-Coming-To-D-D-5E) for reference.

Yes, please :) After that I can just drop in Spelljammer into my 5e session and homebrew a quick ship-to-ship battle system.

[Arkhios]

Yes, please :) After that I can just drop in Spelljammer into my 5e session and homebrew a quick ship-to-ship battle system.

Or, maybe take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553294-Seafaring-in-Fifth-Edition)? I just found it myself, and it looks really good!

[Millstone85]

Other monsters I would like to see:

Alicorn
♫ When I was young, I was too busy to make any friends. Such silliness did not seem worth the effort it expends. But my little ponies, you opened up my eyes. ♫ So yeah, a winged unicorn, or a horned pegasus, depending how you look at it. The next combo will not be so cute.

Gibbering Orb
The horrid blend of a gibbering mouther and a beholder into one creature, which also happens to be Huge and to hide a genius intellect behind its apparent madness. When a GOO manifests on the Material, don't use just any mass of oozing flesh, eyes and tentacles, use this mass of oozing flesh, eyes and tentacles.

Living Spell
Sometimes, Bigby's hand doesn't care that it is "concentration, up to 1 minute". It has places to be and people to slap.

Shardmind
Psionics! I think it uses points or something? Maybe crystals? Yes, and sometimes those crystals assemble into a humanoid shape. Such a being sees itself as a fragment of a cosmic structure that got destroyed. Perhaps it was one of those crystal spheres that supposedly contain the various worlds of the Material?

Skull Lord
One seems to already be on the alternate cover for MToF. When a lich or other necromancer wants an undead to marshal the others, what do they do? Put three skulls on one skeleton, of course! I don't know, it just looks cool.


Apparently there is a picture of a steampunk-ish Giff holding a blunderbuss in the book. Yes, those hippo-humanoids from Spelljammer!So their tease in VGtM will amount to something. That's great!

[Finback]

Skull Lord
One seems to already be on the alternate cover for MToF. When a lich or other necromancer wants an undead to marshal the others, what do they do? Put three skulls on one skeleton, of course! I don't know, it just looks cool.



Skull Lords are fun enemies to use as "leaders" in undead attacks. The 4e version could basically choose to combo its effects differently, and could basically do "fear", "fire" or an Army of Darkness-esque "pick yourselves up, you lazy bags of bones!" Put them at the back out of combat, and just keep respawning those mooks.

[Beechgnome]

I'm very tempted to add Skull lord and Giff to the top post based on these tips, but I think I'll leave that top entry for things 100 per cent confirmed (though that Skull lord pic is a very very strong indication).

Also, is it just me, or is it more than a little confusing that there is a race called the Giff and also a race called the Gith? Especially if both end up being a playable race.

[Arkhios]

Also, is it just me, or is it more than a little confusing that there is a race called the Giff and also a race called the Gith? Especially if both end up being a playable race.

It sure is weird, but from what I have gathered (I never got to play Spelljammer personally; I'm too young for that), Spelljammer is a bit tongue-in-cheek, what with the spacefaring orcs called "scro", for example. I wouldn't be surprised if Giff is a joke from the Gith.

[Millstone85]

Also, is it just me, or is it more than a little confusing that there is a race called the Giff and also a race called the Gith? Especially if both end up being a playable race.Does anyone have a GIF of a giff gish beating a gith in a jiff?

[mephnick]

I think I've got a GIF of a riff of a giff gish biffing a gith in a jiff.

[Unoriginal]

Apparently there is a picture of a steampunk-ish Giff holding a blunderbuss in the book. Yes, those hippo-humanoids from Spelljammer!

That might suggest there could be a small inclusion of rules for firearms, outside of DMG! And, obviously, stats for Giff. Either as monster or PC-race, or maybe even both!?

(not that I was interested in the race myself, I realize that someone else might be)

Here's a link (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5054-Is-Spelljammer-Coming-To-D-D-5E) for reference.


Next Monday we may find out 8 more monsters.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-mayhem


Truly we live in blessed times.






Also, is it just me, or is it more than a little confusing that there is a race called the Giff and also a race called the Gith? Especially if both end up being a playable race.


Eh, it's close, but it's not a problem. Fictional works should try to mimic organic language, I think, and not everything in the lore should be neat and well separate.

I mean, they're aliens, they didn't think "mmmh, our name is too close of this other species, we should change it."

[EvilAnagram]

Maybe I'm just a downer, but I'm not really interested in this book. It seems to be leaning really hard into the cosmology of the planes and the Great Wheel, which just doesn't interest me. It's nice they're branching out of Faerun a bit, but a Greyhawk module or campaign guide would be more fun.

[mephnick]

Maybe I'm just a downer, but I'm not really interested in this book. It seems to be leaning really hard into the cosmology of the planes and the Great Wheel, which just doesn't interest me. It's nice they're branching out of Faerun a bit, but a Greyhawk module or campaign guide would be more fun.

I'm buying it because I like collecting things, but I agree. I already know that Great Wheel epic rivalry stuff. I'm just hoping for some high CR monsters.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe I'm just a downer, but I'm not really interested in this book. It seems to be leaning really hard into the cosmology of the planes and the Great Wheel, which just doesn't interest me. It's nice they're branching out of Faerun a bit, but a Greyhawk module or campaign guide would be more fun.


I'm buying it because I like collecting things, but I agree. I already know that Great Wheel epic rivalry stuff. I'm just hoping for some high CR monsters.

It won't be much about the Great Wheel.

It'll talk about the planes, notably what changed about the ones involved in the Blood War this edition (ex: the state of the River Styx), but it's mostly be about the different people involved in the conflicts (or non-conflicts) of D&D.

Plus we're getting a good bunch of tasty, tasty monsters, so this is alone is a reason to get hyped.

[Beechgnome]

Eh, it's close, but it's not a problem. Fictional works should try to mimic organic language, I think, and not everything in the lore should be neat and well separate.

I mean, they're aliens, they didn't think "mmmh, our name is too close of this other species, we should change it."

Oh, I didn't mean a problem for the races. I just meant a Problem for players keeping track of things, particularly hard of hearing players. It would be like a new race called Half-things or Dragonsworn.

Note: Now I want a race called Half-things.

[Unoriginal]

Oh, I didn't mean a problem for the races. I just meant a Problem for players keeping track of things, particularly hard of hearing players. It would be like a new race called Half-things or Dragonsworn.

Note: Now I want a race called Half-things.

I got what you meant the first time, I'm just saying that for this, the confusion is not a problem, it's more a feature.

Though some players are peculiar about remembering that kind of stuff, anyway. I've had a player telling me that one character called Gondolo and one called Borando had names too similar.

I agree that Half-Things has a good ring to it. Sounds like some kind of beings corrupted by the Far Realm or something like that. Maybe humanoids fused with various items.

[EvilAnagram]

It won't be much about the Great Wheel.

It'll talk about the planes, notably what changed about the ones involved in the Blood War this edition (ex: the state of the River Styx), but it's mostly be about the different people involved in the conflicts (or non-conflicts) of D&D.

Plus we're getting a good bunch of tasty, tasty monsters, so this is alone is a reason to get hyped.

The "different people involved in the conflicts of D&D" strikes me as mostly boring Great Wheel droning. A handful of plot hooks revolving around GW planar conflicts and the monsters that serve those conflicts just seems boring to me.

[Unoriginal]

The "different people involved in the conflicts of D&D" strikes me as mostly boring Great Wheel droning. A handful of plot hooks revolving around GW planar conflicts and the monsters that serve those conflicts just seems boring to me.

...No?

It's not going to be "a handful of plot hooks revolving around GW planar conflicts", it'll be things like the culture and society of Dwarves, the history of the Elves and of the Gith, what happen to souls in the Shadowfell, descriptions of demonic and diabolical cults, and other stuff of that nature.


Of course I'm not saying you're obligated to be interested in that kind of things, far from it, but it seems to me you think it's going to be very different from what the writers said it'll be.

[Millstone85]

Personally, I don't have the old books and I wouldn't have minded a proper Manual of the Planes. But this is good too.


Though some players are peculiar about remembering that kind of stuff, anyway. I've had a player telling me that one character called Gondolo and one called Borando had names too similar.That reminds me of that moment in DM of the Rings where the players think they have won because the big bad evil wizard is dead.

DM: Don't tell me all this time you have been confusing Sauron and Saruman!
Aragorn: Oh yeah, I can't imagine how we would have confused those two names.

[EvilAnagram]

...No?

It's not going to be "a handful of plot hooks revolving around GW planar conflicts", it'll be things like the culture and society of Dwarves, the history of the Elves and of the Gith, what happen to souls in the Shadowfell, descriptions of demonic and diabolical cults, and other stuff of that nature.

Of course I'm not saying you're obligated to be interested in that kind of things, far from it, but it seems to me you think it's going to be very different from what the writers said it'll be.
That's fair, but the relationships of Faerun (and from the Beyond videos I've seen, it will primarily be Faerun) races also doesn't interest me. I have a fairly fleshed out campaign world thanks to the work I and my players have put into it, so I probably won't incorporate much of their material into that.

On top of all that, I tend not to be interested in "lore" outside of the frameworks of actual stories, so it doubly doesn't interest me. Throwing out made-up facts divorced from narrative isn't compelling.

I'm not saying that no one should buy it. I'm just not interested in what they're selling right now. Maybe if some of the monsters blow me away I'll reconsider, but for now it's a reluctant pass.

[Millstone85]

· Astral Dreadnaught, the former cover boy of the Manual of Planes.Which is baffling to me, as I find the creature's look to be spectacularly unappealing. Not just ugly, but really dumb looking, like "I am a monster, rawr!".

Then again, I adore every illustration of a beholder in 5e, including on the covers of the MM and XGtE, and there is a lot in common between those designs. So I am not sure why I feel differently.

I do love the fluff of the astral dreadnought's "tail" being reminiscent of the silver cord of an astral projection, and what it implies. Funny headcanon time, the astral dreadnought is actually an eye of the deep, the lobster beholderkin, projecting a greatly exaggerated representation of itself.


· Archdevils (Geryon mentioned in Dragon, but we can reasonably expect the ones mentioned in the UA on Fiendish options to be there);
· Demon Lords (likely same as those mentioned in UA);With the possible exception of the tarrasque in the MM, I believe that 5e never had a non-adventure book feature a stat block for an unique creature. So that is a little shift in game design there.

I wonder if we will get stats for Lolth herself.


So no mention yet, that I am aware of, of higher level Modrons, Slaad or celestials like Archons or Guardinals, all of which would be nice. But still two months of previews to come so I remain hopeful.I think that archons might be redundant with angels in this edition, but I have hopes for guardinals.

[Envyus]

That's fair, but the relationships of Faerun (and from the Beyond videos I've seen, it will primarily be Faerun) races also doesn't interest me. I have a fairly fleshed out campaign world thanks to the work I and my players have put into it, so I probably won't incorporate much of their material into that.


How do the relationships of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings have anything to do with Faerun. Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings are in all settings.

The other chapters we know focus on the Blood War and the Gith. Both of which don't originate in Faerun.

[Millstone85]

That's fair, but the relationships of Faerun (and from the Beyond videos I've seen, it will primarily be Faerun) races also doesn't interest me.
How do the relationships of Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings have anything to do Faerun.The OP asked that we do not turn this thread into another referendum on setting neutrality. I believe this is the start of one.

[Beechgnome]

The OP asked that we do not turn this thread into another referendum on setting neutrality. I believe this is the start of one.

You are doing [insert divinity of choice]'s work here Millstone85. I appreciate it. Keep focus, people.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don’t care much about Spelljammer, but news of the Marut makes me a little giddy. Inevitable were one of my favorite monster groups back in 3.5e.

[Daithi]

I'm hoping for more goodies for summoning, especially druid and wild shape.

Recently started playing a druid, so I second this. Maybe some Shadowfell beasts?

[Millstone85]

I don’t care much about Spelljammer, but news of the Marut makes me a little giddy. Inevitable were one of my favorite monster groups back in 3.5e.I found Dragon#341's Ecology of the Inevitable and here are my thoughts on these creatures.

Kolyarut
Pursues those who commit a breach of contract. I had been wondering if a pact could enforce itself independently from a warlock or their patron, and this seems to be one way it would. I believe this benefits warlocks more than it does patrons, as the latter already have goons to send. Kolyaruts also care about oaths, which might mean that paladins better watch out for these guys too.

Marut
Pursues the undead and others who cheat death. I thought the game was missing a lawful neutral reaper, and this seems to be exactly it. It should be easy to include one in a campaign, be it as an ally against a lich or as an antagonist for a party that used raise dead a few too many times. Like I said before, I am very curious of how the maruts view the Shadowfell and the Raven Queen.

Quarut
Pursues those who alter reality, notably spacetime. Quaruts are what TV Tropes calls "clock roaches". Since the game does not offer options for time travel, it seems that it would take some spectacular use of wish for one to show up, making the creature a little niche. I suppose that making a pact with an entity from the Far Realm might also gain you the enmity of a quarut.

Varakhut
Pursues those who seek deicide and/or godhood. Interestingly, a varakhut gives up on a target who actually achieves godhood, lets the varakhut itself seek deicide. I am not sure what happens after a still-mortal target kills a god. In any case, this creature looks like a great way to drive home that the BBEGod is more than a really powerful BBEGuy. The universe doesn't like you mortals trying to off divinity.

Zelekhut
Pursues fugitives from justice. I fear that one migth invite derision. Oaths and pacts can be played as having mystical weight, but when the baron of Pravoka puts an arrest warrant on you and suddenly a winged mechanical centaur appears from Mechanus to catch you... I don't know, maybe it is the power of nobility, or the spirit of a nation, directing this hunter on you?


Recently started playing a druid, so I second this. Maybe some Shadowfell beasts?I am trying to think of a shadowfell creature with the beast type, but I got nothing.

[Unoriginal]

I found Dragon#341's Ecology of the Inevitable and here are my thoughts on these creatures.

Kolyarut
Pursues those who commit a breach of contract. I had been wondering if a pact could enforce itself independently from a warlock or their patron, and this seems to be one way it would. I believe this benefits warlocks more than it does patrons, as the latter already have goons to send. Kolyaruts also care about oaths, which might mean that paladins better watch out for these guys too.

Marut
Pursues the undead and others who cheat death. I thought the game was missing a lawful neutral reaper, and this seems to be exactly it. It should be easy to include one in a campaign, be it as an ally against a lich or as an antagonist for a party that used raise dead a few too many times. Like I said before, I am very curious of how the maruts view the Shadowfell and the Raven Queen.

Quarut
Pursues those who alter reality, notably spacetime. Quaruts are what TV Tropes calls "clock roaches". Since the game does not offer options for time travel, it seems that it would take some spectacular use of wish for one to show up, making the creature a little niche. I suppose that making a pact with an entity from the Far Realm might also gain you the enmity of a quarut.

Varakhut
Pursues those who seek deicide and/or godhood. Interestingly, a varakhut gives up on a target who actually achieves godhood, lets the varakhut itself seek deicide. I am not sure what happens after a still-mortal target kills a god. In any case, this creature looks like a great way to drive home that the BBEGod is more than a really powerful BBEGuy. The universe doesn't like you mortals trying to off divinity.

Zelekhut
Pursues fugitives from justice. I fear that one migth invite derision. Oaths and pacts can be played as having mystical weight, but when the baron of Pravoka puts an arrest warrant on you and suddenly a winged mechanical centaur appears from Mechanus to catch you... I don't know, maybe it is the power of nobility, or the spirit of a nation, directing this hunter on you?

I am trying to think of a shadowfell creature with the beast type, but I got nothing.

You forgot:

Jabbadahut

Pursue you if you don't pay your monetary debts.

[the_brazenburn]

Varakhut
Pursues those who seek deicide and/or godhood. Interestingly, a varakhut gives up on a target who actually achieves godhood, lets the varakhut itself seek deicide. I am not sure what happens after a still-mortal target kills a god. In any case, this creature looks like a great way to drive home that the BBEGod is more than a really powerful BBEGuy. The universe doesn't like you mortals trying to off divinity.

The Varakhut seems irrelevant. If you are able to kill gods, you don't need to worry about some Mechanus beat cop.

[Millstone85]

You forgot:

Jabbadahut

Pursue you if you don't pay your monetary debts.Often works in pair with...

Anhydrut
Pursues those who attempt to change deserts by farming, irrigating or otherwise transforming the sands.

I wish that one was also a joke, but it is from something called Sandstorm. That seems like a stretch of the concept.


The Varakhut seems irrelevant. If you are able to kill gods, you don't need to worry about some Mechanus beat cop.You have a point. Personally, I would merge it with the quarut.

[EvilAnagram]

I remember the marut being frickin terrifying in 4e. I'm probably most excited to see them.

[Regitnui]

Maybe the inevitables are what the gear-system of Mechanus are designed to produce; the entirety of Mechanus is an inevitable-making machine that is maintained by modrons.

[the_brazenburn]

I remember the marut being frickin terrifying in 4e. I'm probably most excited to see them.

I've not played 4e, but I remember seeing them in the 3.5 MM and thinking, "Holy ****, lichdom ain't worth it."


Maybe the inevitables are what the gear-system of Mechanus are designed to produce; the entirety of Mechanus is an inevitable-making machine that is maintained by modrons.

That would be a really fantastic plot hook for a chaotic party who's on the wrong side of some Kolaryuts or what have you.

[EvilAnagram]

I've not played 4e, but I remember seeing them in the 3.5 MM and thinking, "Holy ****, lichdom ain't worth it."

Their tactics in the book were to show up and focus on whomever pissed them off. One would use stunning abilities, while four or five stomped on the stunned PC.

[Millstone85]

I remember the marut being frickin terrifying in 4e. I'm probably most excited to see them.The fluff wasn't there, though. 4e maruts were astral mercenaries who got paid in promised favors. Nothing to do with undeath and the like. :smallsigh:


Maybe the inevitables are what the gear-system of Mechanus are designed to produce; the entirety of Mechanus is an inevitable-making machine that is maintained by modrons.According to Wikipedia's page on Primus, modrons do work in the inevitables' factories, but only as part of a truce between the two groups. Of course, this is old edition lore.

Me, I like the idea that inevitables have clearly stated goals (maintaining cycles of life and death, avoiding time paradoxes, etc.) but nobody really understands why modrons go on their Great March or do anything they do.

Anyway, inevitables give a great excuse to use modrons in a less mysterious context.


I've not played 4e, but I remember seeing them in the 3.5 MM and thinking, "Holy ****, lichdom ain't worth it.""I was told Death would look like me, a skeleton in robes. But when it came, it was this hulking piece of metal. At least the helmet somewhat looked like a bird, a small concession to the theme."

[Regitnui]

According to Wikipedia's page on Primus, modrons do work in the inevitables' factories, but only as part of a truce between the two groups. Of course, this is old edition lore.

Me, I like the idea that inevitables have clearly stated goals (maintaining cycles of life and death, avoiding time paradoxes, etc.) but nobody really understands why modrons go on their Great March or do anything they do.

Anyway, inevitables give a great excuse to use modrons in a less mysterious context.

It's something I came up with. I'd certainly make that the purpose of Mechanus or a Mechanus-like plane. The universal laws are set in place, but the existence of Limbo and its 'destructive' chaos requires a countermeasure in the form of a plane-sized machine that produces enforcers of those laws who limit chaos to transformative.

[EvilAnagram]

The fluff wasn't there, though. 4e maruts were astral mercenaries who got paid in promised favors. Nothing to do with undeath and the like. :smallsigh:


I liked it. Raven Queen was the anti-undead reaper figure, while the Maruts would be working with (and fully aligned with the beliefs of) any celestial entity, including evil gods. Basically, in order to bring them out, you had to piss off a god, not just break a specific rule. They could show up a lot more often.

[Envyus]

The Varakhut seems irrelevant. If you are able to kill gods, you don't need to worry about some Mechanus beat cop.

Varakhut's are the strongest of the Inevitables. And I assume they would come in numbers if one of them was not able to best it's target. (As they are always rebuilt if defeated.)

[the_brazenburn]

Do people expect that we'll get any different types of yugoloths? I'd like to see them expanded on.

[Unoriginal]

Do people expect that we'll get any different types of yugoloths? I'd like to see them expanded on.

It's not unlikely we get more of them, but I still wouldn't bet on it.

Still, they're probably going to expend their lore, given the Blood War stuff.

[Beechgnome]

I'll update once the Twitch tv thing happens this evening, but it looks like the first battle is between a devil and a demon.

Based on Twitter pics from Wizards account, I'd say the demon was a Sibriex and the devil was a... Wingless Malebranche (War Devil)? Not sure.

[Millstone85]

Based on Twitter pics from Wizards account, I'd say the demon was a SibriexThe sibriex walks the line between a fiend and a great old one. First with how it looks, but I hope they also kept the lore of it being from an ancient age of the Abyss.

My dream would be for a celestial equivalent. Some guardinal with multiple heads (cherub) or a weird amalgam of wings, eyes and wheels (ophan).


and the devil was a... Wingless Malebranche (War Devil)? Not sure.Whatever it is, I dislike the art. Too cartoony.

[Beechgnome]

The sibriex walks the line between a fiend and a great old one. First with how it looks, but I hope they also kept the lore of it being from an ancient age of the Abyss.
Snip


I think the line about from the 'furthest reaches of the Astral Plane' leads me to believe It is some sort of Aberration turned Fiend. Whether it is a Sibriex we'll see.

[Unoriginal]

I'll update once the Twitch tv thing happens this evening, but it looks like the first battle is between a devil and a demon.

Based on Twitter pics from Wizards account, I'd say the demon was a Sibriex and the devil was a... Wingless Malebranche (War Devil)? Not sure.

Which pic?

[Beechgnome]

Which pic?

Dungeons & Dragons (@Wizards_DnD)
2018-03-18, 3:12 PM
A challenger approaches, ready to fight to the death in Mordenkainen's Mayhem!
Tune in to twitch.tv/dnd tomorrow, Monday 3/19 at 4:00pm PT

pic.twitter.com/LwTgDfRr7e

And...

Dungeons & Dragons (@Wizards_DnD)
2018-03-17, 8:01 PM
What Mayhem calls forth creatures from the furthest reaches of the astral plane down the deepest pits of the nine-hells. What could this mean?
Tune in to twitch.tv/dnd this Monday 3/19 at 4:00pm PT

pic.twitter.com/Irfo0JWZLj

[Unoriginal]

I think the red devil could be Moloch. Or Bel.

[Envyus]

Do people expect that we'll get any different types of yugoloths? I'd like to see them expanded on.


It's not unlikely we get more of them, but I still wouldn't bet on it.

Still, they're probably going to expend their lore, given the Blood War stuff.

It was confirmed during the first stream that we are getting more Yugoloths.

[Envyus]

I think the red devil could be Moloch. Or Bel.

It's Moloch I am almost certain.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j3n-2h6uc1Q/WGdOCRBPyHI/AAAAAAAAKlY/U-sp44aeIqEBmYtywCJKCq1PPTi6QRCGACEw/s1600/archdevilmoloch.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYl-ZDMW0AEVXnH.jpg:large

The Picture seems to be in a lower quality right now. You can't even make out his scourge.

[Unoriginal]

It's Moloch I am almost certain.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j3n-2h6uc1Q/WGdOCRBPyHI/AAAAAAAAKlY/U-sp44aeIqEBmYtywCJKCq1PPTi6QRCGACEw/s1600/archdevilmoloch.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYl-ZDMW0AEVXnH.jpg:large

The Picture seems to be in a lower quality right now. You can't even make out his scourge.

Do you mean his flail?

In any case, they said they based Moloch's design on the Idol on the AD&D PHB. Seems to fit, IMO.

[Envyus]

Do you mean his flail?

In any case, they said they based Moloch's design on the Idol on the AD&D PHB. Seems to fit, IMO.

No his scourge that is what the weapon is called.

https://www.bladesandbows.co.uk/ekmps/shops/bladesbows/images/flail-1-ball-91-p.jpg

https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/5/59593/2612669-6139346526-K066-.jpg

[Unoriginal]

Mayhem starting soon! As in, right now!

[Beechgnome]

Mayhem starting soon! As in, right now!

Yup. It's Sibriex versus Moloch.

See Unoriginal's thread for the full combat report: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553993-Agents-of-Mayhem-First-fight-of-Mordenkainen-s-Mayhem

[Unoriginal]

Well, what a fight, folks. What a fight.

Moloch is a goddam beast in battle, that's for sure.

[Beechgnome]

Well, what a fight, folks. What a fight.

Moloch is a goddam beast in battle, that's for sure.

Did you want to summarize the fight here or in the other thread? If here I'll kill the link to the other one.

Never mind, I saw that you did.

[Unoriginal]

After rewatching the fight, it turns out the Sibriex only won because it got max HPs, 24 goons for free (as in, not summoned by its power), 12 at the start and 12 showing up midway, and Juiblex spitting acid on Moloch from the audience (again, not the Sibriex power), while Moloch was alone and without Legendary actions and saves.

So yeah, Moloch did pretty amazing in those conditions. Remove any one of those factors and Moloch would almost certainly have won.

[Beechgnome]

After rewatching the fight, it turns out the Sibriex only won because it got max HPs, 24 goons for free (as in, not summoned by its power), 12 at the start and 12 showing up midway, and Juiblex spitting acid on Moloch from the audience (again, not the Sibriex power), while Moloch was alone and without Legendary actions and saves.

So yeah, Moloch did pretty amazing in those conditions. Remove any one of those factors and Moloch would almost certainly have won.

First Rule of the Blood War: Demons ignore all other rules.

[Unoriginal]

First Rule of the Blood War: Demons ignore all other rules.

Oh sure, I'm just saying the Sibriex didn't win from its own power. Not that it was OOC.

Still, I'd rather have had Moloch continue the tournament, rather than the combatant who needed (near-)divine intervention to stand a chance. Because it'll get old if the Sibriex does the same next time.

"Ally throw acid when the enemy finishes their turn" is pretty much a Legendary action, though.

[Beechgnome]

Oh sure, I'm just saying the Sibriex didn't win from its own power. Not that it was OOC.

Still, I'd rather have had Moloch continue the tournament, rather than the combatant who needed (near-)divine intervention to stand a chance. Because it'll get old if the Sibriex does the same next time.

"Ally throw acid when the enemy finishes their turn" is pretty much a Legendary action, though.

It does make me wonder who the other combatants will be and how they will balance things. I can see a Drow Matron mother with some goons taking on some Celestial elves in an elf bracket. But curious what the other big guns are going to be.

[the_brazenburn]

It does make me wonder who the other combatants will be and how they will balance things. I can see a Drow Matron mother with some goons taking on some Celestial elves in an elf bracket. But curious what the other big guns are going to be.

For an undead bracket, maybe Skull Lord vs. ?

What other undead do people expect or hope for?

I could also see some Duergar variants in a Dwarf bracket.

[Unoriginal]

I think they're going to go for the Skeksis-looking magic bird vs some Shadowfell enforcers.

[Regitnui]

Where do we see these matches? I want to look at the art.

[Unoriginal]

Where do we see these matches? I want to look at the art.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/240617298?t=12m35s

[Millstone85]

For an undead bracket, maybe Skull Lord vs. ?

What other undead do people expect or hope for?I am having a hard time thinking of one.

How about a skull lord and lotsa skeletons against a marut? Not strictly speaking an undead bracket, but still within the theme of undeath. Also a great conflict of the multiverse.

Perhaps Vecna can summon more skeletons from the stands. :smallwink:

[Beechgnome]

I am having a hard time thinking of one.

How about a skull lord and lotsa skeletons against a marut? Not strictly speaking an undead bracket, but still within the theme of undeath. Also a great conflict of the multiverse.

Perhaps Vecna can summon more skeletons from the stands. :smallwink:

I would love to see that matchup. And it's good and thematic to the marut's purpose.

[Fire Tarrasque]

HEY, SO, they announced in the most recent D&D Beyond that all the Demon Lords from OOTA will be in it.

[Nettlekid]

HEY, SO, they announced in the most recent D&D Beyond that all the Demon Lords from OOTA will be in it.

This kind of annoys me, because that's just pages being taken up for statblocks that we already have. A little extra flavor and detail is welcome, in the vein of 3.5's Fiendish Codex, but I'd rather see NEW stuff than reprinted old stuff.

[Envyus]

I would rather the Demon Lords be in in one location alongside the Archdevils rather then stuck in one adventure. So I view this as a positive.

[Beechgnome]

I would rather the Demon Lords be in in one location alongside the Archdevils rather then stuck in one adventure. So I view this as a positive.

Yeah it's a bit repetitive but I'd rather have it all in one home too. There are some modules too that have monster stat blocks but no big write ups that I'd like to read more about. The Derro in OotA and the fey creatures (Nereid and Siren) in TotYP come to mind.

Updating main entry.

[Beechgnome]

One thing that occurs to me as I update this thread is that all of the videos, previews etc have stayed pretty singularly on the rivalries already mentioned: the blood war and internal and external wars of elves, dwarves and gith, with an eye toward the lower planes and Shadowfell.

But if they are really looking at great rivalries throughout the multiverse, there are a few other really prominent ones: Dragons v. Giants, Slaad v. Modrons and the Genie/elemental planes rivalries.

Although I hold out hope for Modrons v. Slaad, I feel like the other ones (particularly dragons v. Giants) may be too big to cover in this book. It also seems unlikely they would have awesome content on dragons and not, you know, advertise it.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

One thing that occurs to me as I update this thread is that all of the videos, previews etc have stayed pretty singularly on the rivalries already mentioned: the blood war and internal and external wars of elves, dwarves and gith, with an eye toward the lower planes and Shadowfell.

But if they are really looking at great rivalries throughout the multiverse, there are a few other really prominent ones: Dragons v. Giants, Slaad v. Modrons and the Genie/elemental planes rivalries.

Although I hold out hope for Modrons v. Slaad, I feel like the other ones (particularly dragons v. Giants) may be too big to cover in this book. It also seems unlikely they would have awesome content on dragons and not, you know, advertise it.

I think there's some amount of covering the dragons v giants war in the introduction to Storm King's Thunder. Hardly a full sourcebook worth, but enough for a DM really interested in delving into that to get on with. Certainly there's more information on that one than on the elemental rivalries, for one.

[Unoriginal]

Thing is, the conflict between dragons and giants is mostly over. I think Mordenkainen is focusing on ongoing things.

[Beechgnome]

Thing is, the conflict between dragons and giants is mostly over. I think Mordenkainen is focusing on ongoing things.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of the ongoing theme of the book. That puts Modron v. Slaad still on the table, I hope.

[Unoriginal]

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of the ongoing theme of the book. That puts Modron v. Slaad still on the table, I hope.

Modrons vs Slaadi is ancient history, too. The Slaadi got created by Primus's magic stone, then destroyed the Modrons' Limbo enclaves, then when asked about it Primus just went "Working As Intended" and things stayed like that.

[Millstone85]

I would rather the Demon Lords be in in one location alongside the Archdevils rather then stuck in one adventure. So I view this as a positive.Me too, especially since I don't collect adventures.


Modrons vs Slaadi is ancient history, too. The Slaadi got created by Primus's magic stone, then destroyed the Modrons' Limbo enclaves, then when asked about it Primus just went "Working As Intended" and things stayed like that.That's also the impression I got.
As creatures of utter chaos, slaadi loathe modrons and attack them on sight. Nonetheless, Primus stands by his creation and either doesn't perceive the slaadi as threats or chooses to ignore them. It doesn't sound like a great ongoing conflict of the multiverse, just a particularly difficult étape for the Great Modron March.

And it makes sense too, in my opinion. The Blood War is where the forces of Law and Chaos go full nuclear on each other.

[Unoriginal]

Something I really hope they put in the book is the different creatures that serves as boatmen on the River Styx.

Don't have to be a complete new statblock, or even a statblock at all. A few paragraph of lore with some suggested changes would be enough, but I really hope they address it.

Dunno why, but the idea of the River Styx as the one mean of travel in-between planes for most Fiends sounds pretty damn awesome to me.

[Beechgnome]

Something I really hope they put in the book is the different creatures that serves as boatmen on the River Styx.

Don't have to be a complete new statblock, or even a statblock at all. A few paragraph of lore with some suggested changes would be enough, but I really hope they address it.

Dunno why, but the idea of the River Styx as the one mean of travel in-between planes for most Fiends sounds pretty damn awesome to me.

In first edition Charon and his crew were Daemons, the first edition version of Yugoloths. His crew were called Charonodaemons, which would translate to Charonoloths. Don't know if they kept that connection in later editions. Other daemons that could be turned into Yugoloths would be the Derghodaemon (insect-like with five arms), Hydrodaemon (frog-like gliders) and the giant Yagnodaemon, which, I kid you not, had one arm bigger than the other. First edition was delightfully stupid sometimes.

[Unoriginal]

In first edition Charon and his crew were Daemons, the first edition version of Yugoloths. His crew were called Charonodaemons, which would translate to Charonoloths. Don't know if they kept that connection in later editions. Other daemons that could be turned into Yugoloths would be the Derghodaemon (insect-like with five arms), Hydrodaemon (frog-like gliders) and the giant Yagnodaemon, which, I kid you not, had one arm bigger than the other.

In 3.X, there was a kind of Yugoloth who were specifically hired to transport people on the Styx. Can't remember the name, though.



First edition was delightfully stupid sometimes.

It's D&D. If it's not awesome, epic and silly at the same time, something's wrong.

People tend to underestimate how important the silliness part is, I think.

[Millstone85]

I thought they would have teased the next battle by now. :smallannoyed:

[Unoriginal]

I thought they would have teased the next battle by now. :smallannoyed:

They said they wouldn't.

But on the other hand, doesn't it mean they managed to make us shiver in antici

[Millstone85]

They said they wouldn't.I missed/forgot that.


But on the other hand, doesn't it mean they managed to make us shiver in anticiYeah, it is fun. :smallsmile:

[Millstone85]

We do get a tease (https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/978311734460022785) on the day proper, though.

Githyanki versus githzerai, it seems.

[Unoriginal]

We do get a tease (https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/978311734460022785) on the day proper, though.

Githyanki versus githzerai, it seems.

Indeed, indeed.

Expect gish vs monk

[Millstone85]

The third Mayhem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2zmCo2IKM) confirmed the drow matron mother, putting her against a nightwalker. She summoned a retriever, while her opponent got help from an allip.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The third Mayhem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2zmCo2IKM) confirmed the drow matron mother, putting her against a nightwalker. She summoned a retriever, while her opponent got help from an allip.

Wait wait wait Nightwalker? Damn straight. I was hoping for the Nightshades to get in. Also nice to see the Allip, I guess.

[Unoriginal]

The third Mayhem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2zmCo2IKM) confirmed the drow matron mother, putting her against a nightwalker. She summoned a retriever, while her opponent got help from an allip.

I'm really beginning to think they're cheating to make the one most likely to win lose.

[the_brazenburn]

The third Mayhem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2zmCo2IKM) confirmed the drow matron mother, putting her against a nightwalker. She summoned a retriever, while her opponent got help from an allip.

We get Nightwalkers? Excellent!

Do you think we'll get the other Nightshades, then? Nightwalker was actually weaker than some of the others.

And I guess an even higher-powered drow is nice as well. Though "matron mother" is one of the wussiest possible names they could have given it. I know it makes sense with the matriarchal drow theme, but I can't hear the word "matrom mother" without thinking of a dumpy, middle-aged, pregnant drow with one of those idiotic 1800s bonnets.

I think I've got a problem (like I didn't already know that).

[Beechgnome]

Updating with latest 4 monsters. I totally must have slept through Easter Monday because I missed the last mayhem battle entirely. It didn't even occur to me it would be on.

[Millstone85]

Updating with latest 4 monsters. I totally must have slept through Easter Monday because I missed the last mayhem battle entirely. It didn't even occur to me it would be on.Same. I learned of it when it appeared in my Youtube recommendations.


I'm really beginning to think they're cheating to make the one most likely to win lose.Even if they aren't, there is definitely too much mayhem in Mordenkainen's Mayhem. The matron mother manages to banish the nightwalker, only temporarily as the fight is taking place on the Shadowfell, and an angel randomly takes its place while it is away. Just why? It is not to keep the fight going, as the allip is still here. It is not to showcase a new type of angel, as it is a planetar.

I am also disappointed that they went with "Underdark versus Undead". That's not thematic. It is barely a pun.

Will you be making more threads to analyse the fights, or does it feel pointless now?


Wait wait wait Nightwalker? Damn straight. I was hoping for the Nightshades to get in. Also nice to see the Allip, I guess.
We get Nightwalkers? Excellent!

Do you think we'll get the other Nightshades, then? Nightwalker was actually weaker than some of the others.I don't really know nightshades, so all I can say is that the art for the nightwalker is really good.

And the allip is like an even more tortured ghost than the specter? Is that it?


And I guess an even higher-powered drow is nice as well. Though "matron mother" is one of the wussiest possible names they could have given it. I know it makes sense with the matriarchal drow theme, but I can't hear the word "matrom mother" without thinking of a dumpy, middle-aged, pregnant drow with one of those idiotic 1800s bonnets.

I think I've got a problem (like I didn't already know that).I am not a native English speaker, but the first thing I thought of when I read "matron" was the French word "maton", which is slang for jailer. Wiktionary tells me that it matches one of the meanings of matron.

So, it doesn't evoke such a kind figure to me.

The art is pretty pink, though.

[Unoriginal]

Even if they aren't, there is definitely too much mayhem in Mordenkainen's Mayhem. The matron mother manages to banish the nightwalker, only temporarily as the fight is taking place on the Shadowfell, and an angel randomly takes its place while it is away. Just why? It is not to keep the fight going, as the allip is still here. It is not to showcase a new type of angel, as it is a planetar.

Yeah, it's all incredibly pointless. The pattern seems to be "one side clearly dominate the fight, then get their face caved in by the DM intervention, and then lose".



Will you be making more threads to analyse the fights, or does it feel pointless now?


Feel kinda pointless, yeah. I appreciate the preview in the monstes' stat we can get, but the battle itself doesn't matter much. Maybe they'll do better next time, but...



I am not a native English speaker, but the first thing I thought of when I read "matron" was the French word "maton", which is slang for jailer. Wiktionary tells me that it matches one of the meanings of matron.

So, it doesn't evoke such a kind figure to me.

As a French native speaker, "matron" always evoke more the kind of tyrannical caretaker you'd see in a story to demonstrate how much the orphanage sucks or as the "evil governess too strict with the kids"




The art is pretty pink, though.

After decades, a RPG company finally realized you could make a drow woman look powerful and sexy without revealing clothes in black and purple.

That being said, it's true the Matron Mother is the pinkest of all the land. She makes it work extremely well, though.

[Falren]

Just watched the newest D&D fireside chat where Kate Welch showed off her favorite creature from Mordenkainen's Tome- the Grey Render! It's a Chaotic Neutral CR-12 Large Monstrosity. On the next page over you can catch a quick glimpse of some githzerai, including the Githzerai Anarch and art for another one we haven't seen yet. The close up was too blurry to make out any details about the Gith, but we get a pretty good look at the Grey Render. It has multi-attack claw and bite, as well as a reaction called Bloody Rampage. In its description is a table called "Grey Render Quirks", where you can roll a d12 to determine quirks like "Whines piteously in the dark" or "Likes to snuggle". Apparently they are very attached to their master.

I remember these guys from 3rd edition, and they were pretty neat. They were very protective of seemingly random places or people. One of them also featured in Critical Role.

[the_brazenburn]

Just watched the newest D&D fireside chat where Kate Welch showed off her favorite creature from Mordenkainen's Tome- the Grey Render! It's a Chaotic Neutral CR-12 Large Monstrosity. On the next page over you can catch a quick glimpse of some githzerai, including the Githzerai Anarch and art for another one we haven't seen yet. The close up was too blurry to make out any details about the Gith, but we get a pretty good look at the Grey Render. It has multi-attack claw and bite, as well as a reaction called Bloody Rampage. In its description is a table called "Grey Render Quirks", where you can roll a d12 to determine quirks like "Whines piteously in the dark" or "Likes to snuggle". Apparently they are very attached to their master.

I remember these guys from 3rd edition, and they were pretty neat. They were very protective of seemingly random places or people. One of them also featured in Critical Role.

Seriously? Grey Renders were awesome!

I do think that they should be monstrosities in 5e, rather than aberrations, but that's just me.

And that quirks table sounds interesting. Do you have a screenshot of it somewhere, or at least a link to the video?

[Falren]

I do think that they should be monstrosities in 5e, rather than aberrations, but that's just me.

And that quirks table sounds interesting. Do you have a screenshot of it somewhere, or at least a link to the video?

This is a new account so I can't post links yet, but the video was "Fireside Chat with Nathan Stewart & Kate Welch". As of the time of this posting it was the most recent video on the dnd youtube channel.

Also, when were they abberations? I'm looking at the 3rd edition monster manual and it's listed as a beast.

[the_brazenburn]

Also, when were they abberations? I'm looking at the 3rd edition monster manual and it's listed as a beast.

Sorry. I misread your post.

That was embarrassing. Do know the approximate CR?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sorry. I misread your post.

That was embarrassing. Do know the approximate CR?


Just watched the newest D&D fireside chat where Kate Welch showed off her favorite creature from Mordenkainen's Tome- the Grey Render! It's a Chaotic Neutral CR-12 Large Monstrosity. On the next page over you can catch a quick glimpse of some githzerai, including the Githzerai Anarch and art for another one we haven't seen yet. The close up was too blurry to make out any details about the Gith, but we get a pretty good look at the Grey Render. It has multi-attack claw and bite, as well as a reaction called Bloody Rampage. In its description is a table called "Grey Render Quirks", where you can roll a d12 to determine quirks like "Whines piteously in the dark" or "Likes to snuggle". Apparently they are very attached to their master.

I remember these guys from 3rd edition, and they were pretty neat. They were very protective of seemingly random places or people. One of them also featured in Critical Role.

Early morning, eh? :smallwink:

[Beleriphon]

Zelekhut
Pursues fugitives from justice. I fear that one migth invite derision. Oaths and pacts can be played as having mystical weight, but when the baron of Pravoka puts an arrest warrant on you and suddenly a winged mechanical centaur appears from Mechanus to catch you... I don't know, maybe it is the power of nobility, or the spirit of a nation, directing this hunter on you?

I am trying to think of a shadowfell creature with the beast type, but I got nothing.

I think its cosmic justice. Like you murder Baron von Parkova's whole family, you get an bounty hunters after you, come back murder the Baron and then declare yourself (or are perhaps declared) ruler of Parkova thus forever avoiding justice. I think it takes a pretty heavy load of avoiding justice to get a zelekhut to chase you.

[Beechgnome]

Just watched the newest D&D fireside chat where Kate Welch showed off her favorite creature from Mordenkainen's Tome- the Grey Render! It's a Chaotic Neutral CR-12 Large Monstrosity. On the next page over you can catch a quick glimpse of some githzerai, including the Githzerai Anarch and art for another one we haven't seen yet. The close up was too blurry to make out any details about the Gith, but we get a pretty good look at the Grey Render. It has multi-attack claw and bite, as well as a reaction called Bloody Rampage. In its description is a table called "Grey Render Quirks", where you can roll a d12 to determine quirks like "Whines piteously in the dark" or "Likes to snuggle". Apparently they are very attached to their master.

I remember these guys from 3rd edition, and they were pretty neat. They were very protective of seemingly random places or people. One of them also featured in Critical Role.

Thanks. Missed this and will add.

[Falren]

New Mordenkainen's Mayhem! Astral Dreadnaught versus the Leviathan. The Astral Dreadnaught is the same as always- a titanic astral monstrosity with a small dimension in it's pocket. The Leviathan is a serpent-shaped elder elemental of water. The Leviathan had some awesome art.

[Arkhios]

New Mordenkainen's Mayhem! Astral Dreadnaught versus the Leviathan. The Astral Dreadnaught is the same as always- a titanic astral monstrosity with a small dimension in it's pocket. The Leviathan is a serpent-shaped elder elemental of water. The Leviathan had some awesome art.

While I don't know the specifics, it seems that a Leviathan could work as a substitute for Iku-Turso in a campaign that draws heavily upon Kalevala epos.

[Unoriginal]

Other artworks of the Astral Dreadnought I've seen could make it look scary, but more in a "oh ****, a huge alien is after me" way.

This one, though? It manages to make the creature downright sinister.

Now this is a being that makes you understand why it has "dread" in its name.

[Regitnui]

New Mordenkainen's Mayhem! Astral Dreadnaught versus the Leviathan. The Astral Dreadnaught is the same as always- a titanic astral monstrosity with a small dimension in it's pocket. The Leviathan is a serpent-shaped elder elemental of water. The Leviathan had some awesome art.

Wasn't the leviathan an Elder Evil back in 3.5?

[EvilAnagram]

You know, until now I've found everything about this book fairly underwhelming, but these guys look pretty sweet.


Wasn't the leviathan an Elder Evil back in 3.5?

I believe it changed in 4e, in which the term "celestial" just meant "inhabitant of the Astral Sea" and carried no alignment implications. I could easily be mistaken, though.

[Unoriginal]

Well, having now watched the fourth Mayhem, I have to say: it's such bull****.

I don't even believe it's staged by the players, I think the DM just outlandishly decides one side is going to win and grossly advantage the side he favors.

It's four times in four fights that it has turned into player vs player + DM. Arguably 3 times if you consider that the Mind Flayer in the second match attacked everyone.

[the_brazenburn]

Well, having now watched the fourth Mayhem, I have to say: it's such bull****.

I don't even believe it's staged by the players, I think the DM just outlandishly decides one side is going to win and grossly advantage the side he favors.

It's four times in four fights that it has turned into player vs player + DM. Arguably 3 times if you consider that the Mind Flayer in the second match attacked everyone.

Everybody agrees that the videos are crap. I do think it's good that they stage them, if just so we can see the new monsters in play.

[Millstone85]

4e, in which the term "celestial" just meant "inhabitant of the Astral Sea" and carried no alignment implications. I could easily be mistaken, though.The term was "immortal". And an interesting quirk of 4e is that while devils were immortals, demons were elementals.

[Unoriginal]

Everybody agrees that the videos are crap. I do think it's good that they stage them, if just so we can see the new monsters in play.

I'd rather see the new monsters in actual play.

The monsters are awesome, that is obvious, but I can only take so many smug declarations that one combatant is getting hit by a "totally fair" intervention from the DM, with said DM looking annoyed any time his monsters don't hurt the combatant as badly as he wished to.

[EvilAnagram]

The term was "immortal". And an interesting quirk of 4e is that while devils were immortals, demons were elementals.

Yeah, they did learn pretty hard into Law v. Chaos in 4th, with those sides representing the amoral extremes.

[Sigreid]

Really looks like they have decided it's time to flesh out the higher level game.

[the_brazenburn]

Really looks like they have decided it's time to flesh out the higher level game.

I'd say that's a good thing. Low-level campaigns are all very well, but sometimes you want to be really, really heroic.

[Arkhios]

I'd say that's a good thing. Low-level campaigns are all very well, but sometimes you want to be really, really heroic.

Agreed. I wish there were official adventures that would start from a much higher level than 1st through 3rd. Like, something that would actually start from 10th level and up. If only to let more players experience the end game more reliably.

[the_brazenburn]

Agreed. I wish there were official adventures that would start from a much higher level than 1st through 3rd. Like, something that would actually start from 10th level and up. If only to let more players experience the end game more reliably.

I hear you, brother.

If we want to do a high-level campaign, we need to homebrew our own, and balance at the high levels is tricky. Without much guidance from WotC (Crawford said somewhere that they don't take the high levels into account for playtesting), we're pretty much stuck.

[Arkhios]

I hear you, brother.

If we want to do a high-level campaign, we need to homebrew our own, and balance at the high levels is tricky. Without much guidance from WotC (Crawford said somewhere that they don't take the high levels into account for playtesting), we're pretty much stuck.

Indeed. I was pretty ecstatic when I finally finished my first real Adventure Path back in Pathfinder, with our characters at 17th level by the end of it. Still, not the same as being at 20th level, but it was higher than ever before, and it was amazing feeling. It's really a shame that so many adventures end earlier than that.

[Unoriginal]

Really looks like they have decided it's time to flesh out the higher level game.

That is one of the announced goals of the book, so they better have.

[mephnick]

. It's really a shame that so many adventures end earlier than that.

I've never played a high level module 17+, but how would a writer even lay it out? Just a collection of scenes to litter in between teleports and plane shifts? I feel like high level play demands a flexibility modules inherently lack. Not being snarky, I'd love to see an example of a good one.

[Envyus]

There is a bunch of stuff over at Fantasy grounds that shows off a few little previews.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=WOTC5EMTOF

[Millstone85]

There is a bunch of stuff over at Fantasy grounds that shows off a few little previews.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=WOTC5EMTOFIt looks like 4e's archons have become 5e's elemental myrmidons. Well, an elemental in armor makes for an odd yet not entirely unpleasant look. But it mainly makes me hopeful for a return of celestial archons.

Then we have the modron's evil cousin, an Acheronian construct called the cadaver collector.

We are also getting more trolls. The art shows one who grew more heads and limbs, and one who looks pestiferous. There is also a mention of dire trolls.

New art for the eladrin and shadar-kai. I dig the latter, not sure about the former.

Also, new halfling art, which continues to be terrifying.

[Envyus]

Also we now know the Abishai are in the book and another Archdevil in the form of Bael.

[Millstone85]

Also we now know the Abishai are in the book and another Archdevil in the form of Bael.Yes, and after even more reading:
* balhannoth
* berbalang
* black abishai
* blue abishai
* boneclaw
* bronze scout
* bulezau
* canoloth
* choker
* duergar azer
* duergar hammerer
* duergar screamer
* duergar soulblade
* duergar xarrorn
* dwarf acolyte
* elder tempest
* frost salamander
* merrenoloth
* ogre battering ram
* ogre bolt launcher
* skulk
* spirit troll
* the Lonely
* the Lost
* tortle
* tortle druid
* vampiric mist
* winter eladrin

[Beechgnome]

Yes, and after even more reading:
* balhannoth
* berbalang
* black abishai
* blue abishai
* boneclaw
* bronze scout
* bulezau
* canoloth
* choker
* duergar azer
* duergar hammerer
* duergar screamer
* duergar soulblade
* duergar xarrorn
* dwarf acolyte
* elder tempest
* frost salamander
* merrenoloth
* ogre battering ram
* ogre bolt launcher
* skulk
* spirit troll
* the Lonely
* the Lost
* tortle
* tortle druid
* vampiric mist
* winter eladrin

Ok, lots to update once I'm at a computer. I'm a bit disappointed so much of it is stuff that already has appeared in modules: choker and vampiric mist were in Yawning, many of the duergar and demons in Oota, elemental myrmidons were in PotA. And some those just like NPC stat blocks reskinned to races: bronze scout, tortle druid, dwarf acolyte.

But I am glad the abashai are there and am intrigued by the ogre variants.

Also, that screen shot pretty neatly lays out the chapters, confirming what we already got hints of: there is no player races section, just a subsection within each chapter.

It's just Blood War, Elves, Dwarves, Gith, Halfling/gnomes and then bestiary.

[Unoriginal]

Don't know about you, but I'm still hyped about those things.

[Beechgnome]

Yeah I shouldn't say disappointed. There is bound to be repetition from the adventures and few can afford to buy them all up.

I am still totally excited for the book (I wouldn't have started the thread otherwise) but I know some people were wondering what, if any, player options would be available. Based on those chapters and the Gith/Duergar preview pages it looks like the player races are embedded in each chapter.

It is curious to see the Tortle druid in the terrain lists though. Are they putting the Tortle player race in the book? And if so, where? maybe they will list Tortles (and Giffs, for example) as a monster and then have a 'Tortle as player race' box within the bestiary... Which opens up other potential surprises in the book. Or maybe there is simply a Chapter 6 we can't see.

[Unoriginal]

The Tortle Druid, Dwarf Acolyte, etc might just be part of the encounter tables.

In any case, I wonder if those "raid composition" parts will be in the book.

[Beechgnome]

Upon closer look it seems like Tortle could just be a monster.

The fields in the 4th screengrab has a window for player races with just Tiefling, Elf, Dwarf, Gith and Gnome... with a seperate window for Deep Gnome magic, so clearly Svirf's are being reprinted, along with Duergar, from SCAG).

[Unoriginal]

Upon closer look it seems like Tortle could just be a monster.

The fields in the 4th screengrab has a window for player races with just Tiefling, Elf, Dwarf, Gith and Gnome... with a seperate window for Deep Gnome magic, so clearly Svirf's are being reprinted, along with Duergar, from SCAG).

Who know, there might be a "miscellanious races" section that they didn't put in the stuff yet.

Also, I must say I love the artworks that got released. Most of them are gorgeous.

Seems we're getting some kind of door demon.

[Regitnui]

Seems we're getting some kind of door demon.

We have the mimic, the trapper, the doppelganger, and animated furniture... All we need now is a window and we can rebuild the "Everything Trying to Kill You" house.

[Daphne]

Who know, there might be a "miscellanious races" section that they didn't put in the stuff yet.

I really hope this is the case, I like to have all official on printed books, not in some random pdf on the internet.

[Beechgnome]

Assuming the Archdevils from the UA make the cut, the bestiary is starting to look like this...

Allip, Astral Dreadnaught
Balhannoth, Berbalang, Boneclaw
Cadaver Collector, Cambion (variants), Choker, Clockwork something somethings
Demon; Bulezau, Sibriex, Wretched, (door demon?)
Demon Lord; Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy
Devil; Abashai (Black, Blue, maybe Green, Red, White?)
Devil, Archdevil; definitely Bael, Geryon, Moloch and some of Baalzebul, Dispater, Fierna, Glasya, Levistus, Mammon, Mephistoles, Zariel
Duergar; Azer, Hammerer, Screamer, Soulblade, Xarrorn
Eladrin; Winter (+ likely Autumn, Spring, Summer)
Elder elemental; Leviathan, Tempest, +earth, fire
Elemental Myrmidon; Air, Earth, Fire, Water
Elf, Drow; Arachnomancer, Inquisitor, Matron Mother, Royal Consort
Elf, Shadar-kai; gloom weaver, Shadow dancer, soul monger
Giff, Gith; Githyanki Supreme commander +, Githzerai Anarch +
Grey Render
Frost salamander
Iron Cobra
The Lonely, The Lost
Marut (as it's own thing or an Inevitable?), Meazel
Nagpa, Nightwalker
Ogre; battering ram, bolt launcher
Retriever
Skulk, Skull lord, Star spawn
Tortle, Troll; Dire, Spirit
Vampiric Mist
Yugoloths; Canoloth, Merrenoloth

Not too shabby. More to come for sure but I definitely like all of these planar options.

[Millstone85]

We have the mimic, the trapper, the doppelganger, and animated furniture... All we need now is a window and we can rebuild the "Everything Trying to Kill You" house.The mimic alone could already be a carpet, a chair, a chest, a door, a window or something else. And in 4e, it would eventually grow into an impersonator. There probably are a few "family homes".


I really hope this is the case, I like to have all official on printed books, not in some random pdf on the internet.It that a jab against SCAG, or are you thinking of EE?

[Daphne]

It that a jab against SCAG, or are you thinking of EE?

EEPC and the Tortle Package to be precise.

[Envyus]

We are not getting all of the Lords of the Nine. But that may just be because of Levistus. (Hard to fight a guy trapped in a glacier.)

[Unoriginal]

We are not getting all of the Lords of the Nine. But that may just be because of Levistus. (Hard to fight a guy trapped in a glacier.)

I think it would make an ice fight.

[Falren]

Assuming the Archdevils from the UA make the cut, the bestiary is starting to look like this...

Allip, Astral Dreadnaught
Balhannoth, Berbalang, Boneclaw
Cadaver Collector, Cambion (variants), Choker, Clockwork something somethings
Demon; Bulezau, Sibriex, Wretched, (door demon?)
Demon Lord; Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy
Devil; Abashai (Black, Blue, Green, Red, White)
Devil, Archdevil; Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Bael, Dispater, Fierna, Geryon, Glasya, Levistus, Mammon, Mephistoles, Moloch, Zariel
Duergar; Azer, Hammerer, Screamer, Soulblade, Xarrorn
Eladrin; Winter (+ likely Autumn, Spring, Summer)
Elder elemental; Leviathan, Tempest, +earth, fire
Elemental Myrmidon; Air, Earth, Fire, Water
Elf, Drow; Arachnomancer, Inquisitor, Matron Mother, Royal Consort
Elf, Shadar-kai, ++
Giff, Gith; Githyanki Supreme commander +, Githzerai Anarch +
Grey Render
Frost salamander
The Lonely, The Lost
Marut (as it's own thing or an Inevitable?)
Nagpa, Nightwalker
Ogre; battering ram, bolt launcher
Retriever
Skulk, Skull lord
Tortle, Troll; Dire, Spirit
Vampiric Mist
Yugoloths; Canoloth, Merrenoloth

Not too shabby. More to come for sure but I definitely like all of these planar options.

I also spotted meazels and iron cobras in the description for the bestiary section.

[Beechgnome]

I also spotted meazels and iron cobras in the description for the bestiary section.

Thanks, I see where that is now. I'll add it to my last post.

[Beechgnome]

Something I really hope they put in the book is the different creatures that serves as boatmen on the River Styx.

Don't have to be a complete new statblock, or even a statblock at all. A few paragraph of lore with some suggested changes would be enough, but I really hope they address it.

Dunno why, but the idea of the River Styx as the one mean of travel in-between planes for most Fiends sounds pretty damn awesome to me.

In case you didn't spot it, your wish has been granted: that's the Merrenoloth listed in the Coastal monster list. That's what they were called in 2nd edition. (Spelling bit different, but you get the idea).

[RedMage125]

I think it would make an ice fight.

He's a pretty cool character.

[Unoriginal]

He's a pretty cool character.

Please, he's a special snowflake.

[RedMage125]

Please, he's a special snowflake.

That's cold, bro.

[Unoriginal]

In case you didn't spot it, your wish has been granted: that's the Merrenoloth listed in the Coastal monster list. That's what they were called in 2nd edition. (Spelling bit different, but you get the idea).

Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, I don't know if people have noticed, but the Duergars chapter will have clockwork enhancements (prone to malfunction).

[EvilAnagram]

That's cold, bro.

He really needs to chill out.

[Millstone85]

He really needs to chill out.That's enough. Let. It. Go.

[EvilAnagram]

That's enough. Let. It. Go.

What's with the icy demeanor? There's no reason to lose your cool over a joke. Try to chillax.

[Beechgnome]

I just saw the Lore you Should Know episode where Chris Perkins and Matt Sernett talk about Giff and Star Spawn (a reworked 4e foul spawn) being in Mordenkainen's ToF. I'll add Star Spawn to my last list.

[EvilAnagram]

I just saw the Lore you Should Know episode where Chris Perkins and Matt Sernett talk about Giff and Star Spawn (a reworked 4e foul spawn) being in Mordenkainen's ToF. I'll add Star Spawn to my last list.

Damn. Now I'm officially interested. Star Spawn (which are not reworked foulspawn, unless things are significantly changed) are the bees unfathomable knees from beyond our mortal ken. For example, when Hadar, of Hunger fame, sends the avatar of his fathomless void to the material plane, it takes the shape of a star spawn (4e Monster Manual 2).

[Unoriginal]

I think Star Spawn used to be a template in 3.X's Lord of Madness book.

[Millstone85]

Star Spawn (which are not reworked foulspawn, unless things are significantly changed)I am kind of "meh" on the ushemoi. Humanoids whose bodies change to match their classes, becoming hulking warriors, four-armed rogues or portly mages. It may not be D&D's most comical concept, but still, I think it is a bit much.

But I am especially not fond of how 4e made them foulspawn, humanoids touched by the Far Realm. I feel they took a spot that would have been better occupied by the kaorti.

[Beechgnome]

I am kind of "meh" on the ushemoi. Humanoids whose bodies change to match their classes, becoming hulking warriors, four-armed rogues or portly mages. It may not be D&D's most comical concept, but still, I think it is a bit much.

But I am especially not fond of how 4e made them foulspawn, humanoids touched by the Far Realm. I feel they took a spot that would have been better occupied by the kaorti.

TBH, I'm not too familiar with either star Spawn or foul spawn. If you search you should be able to find the video they talk about both so not really sure which way the new monster will lean.

[Falren]

I just saw the Lore you Should Know episode where Chris Perkins and Matt Sernett talk about Giff and Star Spawn (a reworked 4e foul spawn) being in Mordenkainen's ToF. I'll add Star Spawn to my last list.

Wait, so they're changing the name of 4e foulspawn to Star Spawn, but they're not adding actual 4e Star Spawn? Well that's just confusing.

[Millstone85]

TBH, I'm not too familiar with either star Spawn or foul spawn. If you search you should be able to find the video they talk about both so not really sure which way the new monster will lean.
Wait, so they're changing the name of 4e foulspawn to Star Spawn, but they're not adding actual 4e Star Spawn? Well that's just confusing.The video is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIfxU5HIfJs) and I have no idea why they mention foulspawn at all. Everything they are describing is clearly about the star spawn as they existed in 4e. Some great old ones are stars, and some astrological omens are followed by the appearance of aberrant beings in the world, known as star spawn, who may act as patrons for warlocks.

[the_brazenburn]

It looks like 4e's archons have become 5e's elemental myrmidons. Well, an elemental in armor makes for an odd yet not entirely unpleasant look. But it mainly makes me hopeful for a return of celestial archons.

Elemental myrmidons were in PotA. Is it going to be a reprint, or do you think we'll get more types?


Then we have the modron's evil cousin, an Acheronian construct called the cadaver collector.

No. No, that's just wrong.

Modrons are supposed to be truly lawful, with no other thing involved. The idea of a modron with any alignment on the Good/Evil spectrum goes against everything modrons are.


We are also getting more trolls. The art shows one who grew more heads and limbs, and one who looks pestiferous. There is also a mention of dire trolls.

Yes! I've been waiting for diretrolls for ages!


New art for the eladrin and shadar-kai. I dig the latter, not sure about the former.

Eh. I despise anything that gives elves another reason to be haughty. By which, I mean that fact that they're all related to mighty rulers of the planes.

Shadar-kai are different. I've always thought of elves as "banished fey", i.e. minor fey who were kicked out of the Feywild for some reason and fell to Earth. Elves from the Shadowfell is an interesting twist that I'll be looking forward to.


Also, new halfling art, which continues to be terrifying.

When is it not?

[Millstone85]

Elemental myrmidons were in PotA. Is it going to be a reprint, or do you think we'll get more types?I haven't read PotA and have no idea.


No. No, that's just wrong.

Modrons are supposed to be truly lawful, with no other thing involved. The idea of a modron with any alignment on the Good/Evil spectrum goes against everything modrons are.All I meant is that the cadaver collector is a construct from a plane adjacent to Mechanus.


When is it not?I like the one on page 176 of the PHB.https://i.pinimg.com/originals/40/45/bc/4045bc53aee76424b9d3f471dedf94e1.jpg

[Unoriginal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZHzLn2S6CY

This video shows the Maruts, who are how Inevitables are called this edition, with the artwork making them look like Modrons build for war in 40k Terminator armor.

Not sure if it's old news or not. Geryon is also shown (and has the dubious honor of being the first artwork for this book that I don't like).

[Millstone85]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZHzLn2S6CYOh, this guy. His videos almost always include something that irks me. It is amazing.

I found what he is reading: http://www.dragonmag.com/5.0/#!/article/116385/103617813


This video shows the Maruts, who are how Inevitables are called this editionNo, he was just reading too fast and making stuff up. The document says "Inevitables appeared in 3e's MotP... Among them, the marut...".


with the artwork making them look like Modrons build for war in 40k Terminator armor.My goodness, it really does!

[Unoriginal]

Eh. I despise anything that gives elves another reason to be haughty. By which, I mean that fact that they're all related to mighty rulers of the planes.

Shadar-kai are different. I've always thought of elves as "banished fey", i.e. minor fey who were kicked out of the Feywild for some reason and fell to Earth. Elves from the Shadowfell is an interesting twist that I'll be looking forward to.


The Mordenkainen's reveals that Elves stupidly lost their original semi-divinity by acting like fantastical dumb***es and jerk***es.

They don't have much reasons to be haughty

[the_brazenburn]

The Mordenkainen's reveals that Elves stupidly lost their original semi-divinity by acting like fantastical dumb***es and jerk***es.

They don't have much reasons to be haughty

I think that's the point. They're haughty about their divine origin, even though they lost it by being haughty.

And people think orcs are stupid.

[Unoriginal]

Oh, this guy. His videos almost always include something that irks me. It is amazing.

Eh, myself I can't stand any of Cloville's stuff.




I found what he is reading: http://www.dragonmag.com/5.0/#!/article/116385/103617813

No, he was just reading too fast and making stuff up. The document says "Inevitables appeared in 3e's MotP... Among them, the marut...".


Thanks


I think that's the point. They're haughty about their divine origin, even though they lost it by being haughty.

And people think orcs are stupid.

Well, orcs are convinced they're superior.

[Millstone85]

The Mordenkainen's reveals that Elves stupidly lost their original semi-divinity by acting like fantastical dumb***es and jerk***es.I will give them the benefit of the doubt until I read the whole story. Yes, the original elves could be anything, go anywhere and do whatever, in true embodiment of freedom, but I understand them wanting forms, places and aspirations they could call their own, an identity as a people. Daddy can't be bothered to help them find it, but daddy's wife yes. So they start establishing woodland kingdoms, and sea kingdoms, and so on. But when it becomes clear that mommy's plans have a sinister side (and I hope that's not just challenging daddy's authority) they almost all go back to daddy. They still all get punished, and for generations to come.

[Gingervitis]

Is there any word on Abyssal Tiefling subraces? I want my two headed Demogorgon Tiefling who doesnt get along with himself.

[Unoriginal]

Is there any word on Abyssal Tiefling subraces? I want my two headed Demogorgon Tiefling who doesnt get along with himself.

There is no Abyssal Tiefling this edition.

[EvilAnagram]

The Mordenkainen's reveals that Elves stupidly lost their original semi-divinity by acting like fantastical dumb***es and jerk***es.

They don't have much reasons to be haughty
I see no reason why anyone should read anything this book has to say about elves or dwarves. I haven't seen anything that seems remotely interesting in that respect, and I think it's silly to pretend that their histories should be in any way related across different settings.

[Gingervitis]

There is no Abyssal Tiefling this edition.

There was one in the UA, if I recall

[Unoriginal]

I see no reason why anyone should read anything this book has to say about elves or dwarves. I haven't seen anything that seems remotely interesting in that respect

That is your opinion. Personally, I love what they told us about those, and have found it very interesting.


and I think it's silly to pretend that their histories should be in any way related across different settings.

This, however, is just plainly ignoring 5e lore. As they have repeatedly said, all the official D&D settings happen either in the same Material Plane or in a plane connected to it, even if each world is in its own Crystal Sphere which obeys to slightly different rueles. So, yes, all their histories are related, because mostly eternal divine entities sharing a relatively unified workspace.

[Millstone85]

Yeah! It has been almost five pages since we (but mostly EvilAnagram) last went into the matter of setting neutrality!

The last time, the OP said I was "doing [insert divinity of choice]'s work here". Which I guess means I am doing nobody's work, and I have little hope the subject can be avoided much longer.

[Unoriginal]

There was one in the UA, if I recall

Nope, there were many variants of the Infernal ones, however.

[Beechgnome]

Yeah! It has been almost five pages since we (but mostly EvilAnagram) last went into the matter of setting neutrality!

The last time, the OP said I was "doing [insert divinity of choice]'s work here". Which I guess means I am doing nobody's work, and I have little hope the subject can be avoided much longer.

I am in a car at the moment and I started thinking... Should I just post a gif of the bus driver in the Simpsons tapping the sign? Will anyone get it? But yeah, a separate thread on 'Does anyone care about the lore of MToF?' will keep this one clean and useful.

[gloryblaze]

Nope, there were many variants of the Infernal ones, however.

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf

(S)he's right, there was one in UA. Who knows how canon it is, though. After all, Eberron was in UA and we all know how that's gone :smalltongue:

[Millstone85]

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf

(S)he's right, there was one in UA. Who knows how canon it is, though. After all, Eberron was in UA and we all know how that's gone :smalltongue:If I remember recent videos correctly, it looks like MToF will have a variety of cambions from the Lower Planes, but they are keeping tieflings an infernal matter exclusively.

[Unoriginal]

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf

(S)he's right, there was one in UA. Who knows how canon it is, though. After all, Eberron was in UA and we all know how that's gone :smalltongue:

My bad, then. This was before I started reading the UA again, I think. Or I just forgot about it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZHzLn2S6CY

This video shows the Maruts, who are how Inevitables are called this edition, with the artwork making them look like Modrons build for war in 40k Terminator armor.

Not sure if it's old news or not. Geryon is also shown (and has the dubious honor of being the first artwork for this book that I don't like).

If the art on the far right is the Marut art, then that's got my honor of being my first piece of disliked art. I am... not a fan of that abomination.

[EvilAnagram]

This, however, is just plainly ignoring 5e lore. As they have repeatedly said, all the official D&D settings happen either in the same Material Plane or in a plane connected to it, even if each world is in its own Crystal Sphere which obeys to slightly different rueles. So, yes, all their histories are related, because mostly eternal divine entities sharing a relatively unified workspace.
The thing is that I don't recall reading that in any of the books. I could be mistaken, but I only remember hearing it in videos made when the designers were explaining why they weren't bothering with actual setting books, and I think it's a disingenuous post-hoc justification for a financial decision. It makes no sense for the wild, cannibalistic elves of the godless Dark Sun to have any meaningful relationship to the pantheon of the Forgotten Realms. They cannot possibly exist on the same plane, and Dark Sun has no meaningful connection to the planes or Crystal Spheres. You could claim that Spelljammer implies this is the case (it doesn't imply that the same creative forces are in any way involved in the creation of different planes); however, they haven't released any official Spelljammer material, so you can't count it as 5e lore.

So no, this stuff isn't canonical in any setting other than Faerun, and there's no reason to think it ever will be because WotC doesn't seem to have any intention of fleshing out any settings (many of which have completely different origins and interspecies relationships for elves and dwarves).

[Regitnui]

So no, this stuff isn't canonical in any setting other than Faerun, and there's no reason to think it ever will be because WotC doesn't seem to have any intention of fleshing out any settings (many of which have completely different origins and interspecies relationships for elves and dwarves).

Faerun wizard: "so elves and dwarves have each other..."

Eberron sociologist: "er... No, the root cultures weren't in contact until after the unification of the continent, so that's a sweeping generalisation."

Athas trader: "Everybody hates elves, the damned thieves. Steal your water, your supplies and anything else they think they can get away with.

Me, to WotC: Yes, a unified lore where every elf and every dwarf ever everywhere dislike each other because Tolkien/nonexistent (in most settings) gods said so. You do you. I'll buy your book for the statblocks, and I'll ask my 3.5 books for distinct flavour, thanks."

So yeah, I'll be buying MToF, but I doubt I'll be using any of the lore.

((This has been your monthly 'homogenization is bad' rant. For more on this subject, or any kind of feedback, please don't message the writer.))

[Unoriginal]

The thing is that I don't recall reading that in any of the books. I could be mistaken, but I only remember hearing it in videos made when the designers were explaining why they weren't bothering with actual setting books, and I think it's a disingenuous post-hoc justification for a financial decision. It makes no sense for the wild, cannibalistic elves of the godless Dark Sun to have any meaningful relationship to the pantheon of the Forgotten Realms. They cannot possibly exist on the same plane, and Dark Sun has no meaningful connection to the planes or Crystal Spheres. You could claim that Spelljammer implies this is the case (it doesn't imply that the same creative forces are in any way involved in the creation of different planes); however, they haven't released any official Spelljammer material, so you can't count it as 5e lore.

So no, this stuff isn't canonical in any setting other than Faerun, and there's no reason to think it ever will be because WotC doesn't seem to have any intention of fleshing out any settings (many of which have completely different origins and interspecies relationships for elves and dwarves).

That's a pretty out here claim. Of course they can exist in the same plane, there is nothing preventing variations when they're on different planets that obey slightly different physico-magical laws.

Plus you're ignoring the existence of the "default setting", which is different from Faerun.

You may say that it sounds like a disingenuous justification to you, but you have no evidence that it is a fact, so it's just insulting the designers for a creative decision you don't like.

Also, Regitnui, what are you even talking about? D&D 5e Elves and Dwarves don't particularly hate each other, especially not "because Tolkien".

Outside from the specific history of the campaign and personal opinions, they just have theological and cultural differences that they can find annoying in the other.


If you want to criticise something and be taken seriously, knowing about it would help, just saying.

Anyway, this derailling has gone on long enough. The Mordenkainen's arrives today in some stores, right? We'll soon have all the answers.

[Millstone85]

The Mordenkainen's arrives today in some stores, right? We'll soon have all the answers.I think you are a month early.

link (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/mordenkainens-tome-foes)
Look for Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes in your local game store on May 18! Otherwise, you can pick it up on May 29, and start adding new monsters and lore nuggets to your D&D sessions.

[Beechgnome]

That's a pretty out here claim. Of course they can exist in the same plane, there is nothing preventing variations when they're on different planets that obey slightly different physico-magical laws.

Plus you're ignoring the existence of the "default setting", which is different from Faerun.

You may say that it sounds like a disingenuous justification to you, but you have no evidence that it is a fact, so it's just insulting the designers for a creative decision you don't like.

Also, Regitnui, what are you even talking about? D&D 5e Elves and Dwarves don't particularly hate each other, especially not "because Tolkien".

Outside from the specific history of the campaign and personal opinions, they just have theological and cultural differences that they can find annoying in the other.


If you want to criticise something and be taken seriously, knowing about it would help, just saying.

Anyway, this derailling has gone on long enough. The Mordenkainen's arrives today in some stores, right? We'll soon have all the answers.

We have a month yet. Let's use this month for any number of passtimes, but let not these discussions include the 'how WOTC handles setting neutrality', a back and forth as endless as an Astral Dreadnaught's tail.

[Unoriginal]

I think you are a month early.

link (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/mordenkainens-tome-foes)

You're right. Well, if patience is a virtue, the hype's certainly teaching me to sin.

[EvilAnagram]

That's a pretty out here claim. Of course they can exist in the same plane, there is nothing preventing variations when they're on different planets that obey slightly different physico-magical laws.
How can different places on the same plane obey different fundamental laws about reality?

I guess the term is a bit vague and open to interpretation, but I can't see two places in which magic behaves in a fundamentally different manner (Dark Sun and Faerun) as being part of the same plane. In one, magic drains life force, and in the other it doesn't.


Plus you're ignoring the existence of the "default setting", which is different from Faerun.
The default setting in 5e is basically just Faerun with eraser marks. There's nothing wrong with that. 3.5 had Greyhawk as the default, and that worked out well for the game.


You may say that it sounds like a disingenuous justification to you, but you have no evidence that it is a fact, so it's just insulting the designers for a creative decision you don't like.
They only started bringing it up after they abandoned any material relating to specific settings, and they only rely on that talking point when they're bringing up how a specific piece of narrowly focused lore is actually widely applicable.

The company has obviously made a financial decision not to pursue campaign guides, which is fine. I wish they hadn't, but capitalism makes demands of companies. However, pretending that it's a creative decision after the fact is disingenuous. I don't need documentation by WotC to deduce that, and it's not just insulting the designers. It's an apt description of their behavior.

[Millstone85]

Going by the neogi entry in VGtM, I expect MToF to have star spawn of Acamar, Caiphon, Gibbeth, and Hadar.

Acamar is "a dead star of utter inky nothingness that devours other stars that draw too close" (4e MM2 p196), essentially a fantasy black hole. Its spawn is called the maw of Acamar.

"As times grow hard [...] Caiphon grows bright" (4e MM3 p185), making itself a star to wish upon. Its spawn, the emissary of Caiphon, is a deceiver whose helpful guidance leads to more ruin.

Gibbeth is a maddening star. Its spawn is called the scion of Gibbeth and "no two observers can agree on its actual appearance" (4e MM2 p197). I am getting something of an It vibe here.

Hadar is the "blood-red ember" of an once bright star. "A herald of Hadar is an avatar of Hadar's dying gasps" (4e MM2 p195). Well, I am surprised. With the spells and such, Hadar is the one I remembered as a black hole.

Others "stars" I would like to see return are Allabar and Ulban.

Allabar is basically Marvel's Ego the Living Planet. It is also known as the Opener of the Way, because it helps other stars send their spawn. Amusingly, the 4e MM3 actually tried to stat Allabar itself.

Ulban is a comet. Its spawn, found in the 4e MM3, is just called the spawn of Ulban, and accordingly is a generic evil tentacle guy. Dragon#381 did something much more interesting when it described Ulban as a warlock patron. The thing is supposedly from the future and trying to avert the end of everything, by all means.

In the interview about star spawn in 5e, Matt Sernett and Chris Perkins were asked if such stars could be seen from all worlds. Perkins gave a long exaggerated er. I hope MToF offers possible ways this could work. A crystal-sphere-hopping Allabar, maybe?


I guess the term is a bit vague and open to interpretation, but I can't see two places in which magic behaves in a fundamentally different manner (Dark Sun and Faerun) as being part of the same plane.You are right that it is open to interpretation. The crystal spheres could be seen as different material planes, different layers of the same material plane, or different material structures in what should really be called the Plane of Phlogiston.

Even without using Spelljammer concepts, I have no problem with two distant planets having different rules of magic. I guess I see magic more as an energy lifeform than as a force of physics, so it feels right to me that an alien world would have alien magic.

In any case, the PHB and DMG both present Athas and Toril as "worlds of the Material Plane". Nothing here about a prime material plane and secondary material planes, in 5e lore it is just "the" Material Plane.

[Envyus]

How can different places on the same plane obey different fundamental laws about reality?

I guess the term is a bit vague and open to interpretation, but I can't see two places in which magic behaves in a fundamentally different manner (Dark Sun and Faerun) as being part of the same plane. In one, magic drains life force, and in the other it doesn't.


The default setting in 5e is basically just Faerun with eraser marks. There's nothing wrong with that. 3.5 had Greyhawk as the default, and that worked out well for the game.


They only started bringing it up after they abandoned any material relating to specific settings, and they only rely on that talking point when they're bringing up how a specific piece of narrowly focused lore is actually widely applicable.

The company has obviously made a financial decision not to pursue campaign guides, which is fine. I wish they hadn't, but capitalism makes demands of companies. However, pretending that it's a creative decision after the fact is disingenuous. I don't need documentation by WotC to deduce that, and it's not just insulting the designers. It's an apt description of their behavior.

Athas is actually outright stated to be part of the same material plane back in 2e. Someone criticizing the Harmonium makes comparison to their actions as similar to the actions of the Sorcerer Kings that turned Athas into a hellhole of a material plane world.

Even ignoring that it's clear this book is not FR exclusive given that its a Greyhawk Wizard on the cover of the book.

[EvilAnagram]

Athas is actually outright stated to be part of the same material plane back in 2e. Someone criticizing the Harmonium makes comparison to their actions as similar to the actions of the Sorcerer Kings that turned Athas into a hellhole of a material plane world.
Isn't Harmonium a Planescape faction? You know, the crossover setting all about crossing the planes?


Even ignoring that it's clear this book is not FR exclusive given that its a Greyhawk Wizard on the cover of the book.
True, but my criticism is that they're trying to liberally apply an FR coating to all of the D&D settings. It's attempting to force all of the cosmology and races into boxes of, "Like FR, but..." rather than independent entities that stand on their own.

Edit: On second thought, I'd rather not bring FR into it too much My objection is that they are trying to genericize all of their settings with a filter based off of a popular setting. That sucks because the highlights some settings are in how much they differ from the more popular ones. It has nothing to do with the value of FR or GH.


snip
You make some good points.

That said, I don't see how it benefits the settings to have them pushed into that box. They are unlike each other, so forcing them to be cosmically related seems ridiculous when Athas never seemed to have anything to do with the greater cosmology of D&D, and plenty of setting have entirely separate cosmologies.

[Envyus]

Isn't Harmonium a Planescape faction? You know, the crossover setting all about crossing the planes?


True, but my criticism is that they're trying to liberally apply an FR coating to all of the D&D settings. It's attempting to force all of the cosmology and races into boxes of, "Like FR, but..." rather than independent entities that stand on their own.

Edit: On second thought, I'd rather not bring FR into it too much My objection is that they are trying to genericize all of their settings with a filter based off of a popular setting. That sucks because the highlights some settings are in how much they differ from the more popular ones. It has nothing to do with the value of FR or GH.


You make some good points.

That said, I don't see how it benefits the settings to have them pushed into that box. They are unlike each other, so forcing them to be cosmically related seems ridiculous when Athas never seemed to have anything to do with the greater cosmology of D&D, and plenty of setting have entirely separate cosmologies.

Yes and FR was one of the first settings linked to Planescape. And Planescape is pretty much how all the settings are linked. And as it shows all the settings have been cosmically related since 2e.

You clearly don't understand FR or D&D itself too much if you think they are trying to apply an FR coating to all D&D settings. When this simply is not true. This stuff is generic D&D, settings like Greyhawk and FR use the generic D&D Lore more or less wholesale. While other settings make changes here and there. Pretty much it's the opposite, D&D does not take after FR, FR takes after D&D.

[Regitnui]

D&D does not take after FR, FR takes after D&D.

So why is there a massive and impenetrable wiki made up of FR lore? Even if your statement is true, FR has built up so much lore over the years with everything (except possibly DDO) being canon, that the reason FR is 'default D&D' is sheer weight of information. For example, WoW is default MMO, and Morrowind is default Elder Scrolls. Biggest scope, longest reach, so therefore it's become the baseline by which other settings must be judged or moulded.

And before you object to me not knowing anything about FR and FR not being explicitly what's in the PHB, FR changes to the rules of the edition, so as I understand it, whatever was true about FR in 4e or 3.5 is now replaced by whatever's stated by 5e, which has a neat coating of FR over it all. FR bends to the setting and moves forward in history.

But you're right, this isn't the place for a setting war. Just wanted to say that. I'm probably going to be told I'm wrong.

[Unoriginal]

So why is there a massive and impenetrable wiki made up of FR lore? Even if your statement is true, FR has built up so much lore over the years with everything (except possibly DDO) being canon, that the reason FR is 'default D&D' is sheer weight of information. For example, WoW is default MMO, and Morrowind is default Elder Scrolls. Biggest scope, longest reach, so therefore it's become the baseline by which other settings must be judged or moulded.

And before you object to me not knowing anything about FR and FR not being explicitly what's in the PHB, FR changes to the rules of the edition, so as I understand it, whatever was true about FR in 4e or 3.5 is now replaced by whatever's stated by 5e, which has a neat coating of FR over it all. FR bends to the setting and moves forward in history.

But you're right, this isn't the place for a setting war. Just wanted to say that. I'm probably going to be told I'm wrong.

Yeah, you're wrong. There is a huge FR wiki *because* FR has a lot of lore that is NOT the standard D&D one.

That FR is modified for each editions is further proof of that: there is the default D&D, and FR has to adapt otherwise it'd become too different. But the explanation for how Dragonborn showed up in the Realms is different from the default D&D explanation, just for one example.

[Millstone85]

the reason FR is 'default D&D' is sheer weight of informationI agree that, in term of support, FR is the default setting of 5e. There is, as you say, the sheer weight of information it has accumulated over the years. There is also the fact that SCAG, and possibly CoS, are currently 5e's only setting books. And of course, there is AL taking place in FR.


FR changes to the rules of the edition, so as I understand it, whatever was true about FR in 4e or 3.5 is now replaced by whatever's stated by 5eEvery setting changes to the lore and rules of the edition. The difference is that, as you say, FR moves forward in history, undergoing some new cataclysm in the process, while other settings do a more traditional reboot.

For example, a 5e FR historian could talk about how none in Faerûn had heard of the Elemental Chaos until 1385 DR, when the Spellplague jumbled the Elemental Planes, and how as of 1489 DR the Elemental Chaos appears to persist around the reformed Elemental Planes.

But I believe 5e's default setting, which is probably called 5e Planescape (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/885909193718341633), is being written from the point of view that the Great Wheel has been as it is presented in the PHB for thousands upon thousands of years. If we got 5e Dark Sun, it would probably work under that same assumption, with the addendum that travel to or from Athas is extremely difficult.

In that sense, FR is actually harder than any other setting to reconcile with edition lore.

[Beechgnome]

Can we all just agree to be done with the setting conversation, now?

I made a few additions to the list I made (page 5 of this thread for newcomers, so yes, 2 pages of setting talk later). I had not noticed until now the three variants of Shadar-Kai: Shadow dancer, gloom weaver and soul monger and have added them.

Also, I watched the last mayhem battle, and there were no new monster reveals, but the Gith Supreme Commander (Cr 14) defeated Sibriex (Cr 18) in an upset. Really good rolls, an early Crit with his Bigby's Hand attack and at one point he used telekinesis to lift the demon up and drop it on all her wretched - Who strangely died from the demon's noxious aura, but whatever, it was actually cool.

[Unoriginal]

Can we all just agree to be done with the setting conversation, now?

I made a few additions to the list I made (page 5 of this thread for newcomers, so yes, 2 pages of setting talk later). I had not noticed until now the three variants of Shadar-Kai: Shadow dancer, gloom weaver and soul monger and have added them.

Also, I watched the last mayhem battle, and there were no new monster reveals, but the Gith Supreme Commander (Cr 14) defeated Sibriex (Cr 18) in an upset. Really good rolls, an early Crit with his Bigby's Hand attack and at one point he used telekinesis to lift the demon up and drop it on all her wretched - Who strangely died from the demon's noxious aura, but whatever, it was actually cool.

That battle's setup was just ridiculous, especially compared to the Moloch vs Sibriex one.

To "balance" the fight, Moloch had to fight 24 Wretched along with the Sibriex. The Githyanki Supreme Commander had ONE regular kobold to help them in the fight. A kobold who couldn't even survive one turn next to the Sibriex (though I suppose serving as shield for one spell helped. And the Sibriex not only still had one Wretched, it STILL had the maxed out HPs.

In any case, the Sibriex's slow speed, as well as the Supreme Commander being trained in parrying as well as having a player who used their abilities better, ended up being major factors.

The main danger the Sibriex brought to the table was the poison aura, which eventually got countered once the Commander passed their save near the end, while the Supreme was in the end far more skilled a combatant in a straight up brawl.

I think the deciding factor of the fight, however, was the Mass Suggestion used by the Supreme Commander on the second-to-last turn, which forced the Sibriex to move away from them rather than attack.

Still, it's rather sad how the DM favors one side over the other that much.

I doubt the Supreme Commander will be able to win the final round, in any case.

[Millstone85]

I made a few additions to the list I made (page 5 of this thread for newcomers, so yes, 2 pages of setting talk later). I had not noticed until now the three variants of Shadar-Kai: Shadow dancer, gloom weaver and soul monger and have added them.Why update a list on page 5 and not the one on page 1?

I also forgot to write down those three, sorry.

[Beechgnome]

Why update a list on page 5 and not the one on page 1?

I also forgot to write down those three, sorry.

Easier on my phone?. I've not been home much this month (new baby, hospital, things better now). But I'm near a laptop now so I should be able to grab whole text from that page 5 post and move it to OP.

EDIT: Original post edited. It will be easier to keep that updated as long as there aren't wholesale changes like the Fantasy Grounds screenshots. Which was a treasure-trove of info, Envyus.

[Unoriginal]

We should do our own Mayhem, when we get more monster stats.

[Beechgnome]

Looks like starting May 7 there will be podcasts of adventures featuring monsters from the book.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/podcasts-foes

[the_brazenburn]

Looks like starting May 7 there will be podcasts of adventures featuring monsters from the book.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/podcasts-foes

Oh, great.

This looks like it will be even worse than the "one-on-one" "unbiased" Mayhem fights.

@Unoriginal: Great idea! We could get people to volunteer to do certain matches and post them up somewhere. Personally, I'd love to handle the Marut, if the stats get leaked somehow.

[Envyus]

Posted a new thread over the reveal of Moloch's stats in the new issue of Dragon +

Edit Link. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556744-Archdevil-Moloch-(Mordenkainen-s-tome-of-foes-preview)&p=23008442#post23008442

Also Githyanki Lich Queen Vlaakith. Though I don't feel like making a thread for her yet. Edit I made a thread for her http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556751-Githyanki-Lich-Queen-Vlaaktih-(Dragon-preview)

[Beechgnome]

Posted a new thread over the reveal of Moloch's stats in the new issue of Dragon +

Edit Link. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556744-Archdevil-Moloch-(Mordenkainen-s-tome-of-foes-preview)&p=23008442#post23008442

Also Githyanki Lich Queen Vlaakith. Though I don't feel like making a thread for her yet. http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/dragon/19/DRA19_LichQueen2.pdf

I can definitely see Moloch as the kind of guy who would hire the party for a job. Disguised as a noble, of course.

[Beechgnome]

Was looking at another attempt to catalogue upcoming monsters and someone mentioned this Mearls tweet as an indication we are getting Phoenix in the book. Or could just be a joke. But I am hopeful we will get at least a couple celestials to bolster the current 8.

Mike Mearls (@mikemearls)
2018-02-11, 11:30 AM
Funny story - we kept deleting it from the book, but every day when we went back to work it would be back in there and my desk would be on fire.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/962725469681459200?s=21

[Beechgnome]

As well it was suggested The Lost and The Lonely were demons, like the previously shown The Wretched. That would make sense as a group.

And weirdly, Google tells me there is a Joan Baez song called The Last, Lonely and Wretched. Which is funny, because I have always found her music Abysmal.

[Beechgnome]

New update: One of the adventures to tie in with MToF previews 9 stat blocks for monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes: the previously mentioned Allip and Duergar Stoneguard, plus Duergar Warlord, Eidolon, Eidolon Sacred Statue (really more of an extension of the Eidolon), Elder Oblex, and three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.

Here is original reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8g9fcl/mordenkainens_preview_adventure/)

and here is Bell of Lost Souls with stat blocks of eight (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-a-motherlode-of-monsters-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html) of those (but not Elder Oblex for some reason).

Updating list.

[the_brazenburn]

New update: One of the adventures to tie in with MToF previews 9 stat blocks for monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes: the previously mentioned Allip and Duergar Stoneguard, plus Duergar Warlord, Eidolon, Eidolon Sacred State, Elder Oblex, and three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.

Here is original reddit post (plus https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8g9fcl/mordenkainens_preview_adventure/)

and here is Bell of Lost Souls with stat blocks of eight (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-a-motherlode-of-monsters-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html) of those (but not Elder Oblex for some reason).

Updating list.

What's the adventure plot?

[Beechgnome]

What's the adventure plot?

I fixed reddit link. I haven't read the adventure myself, but it involves you acting as Gith to hunt down some illithid and muck up their plans across a number of planes. Or so the redditer says.

[Millstone85]

three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.So they are using the ushemoi again. Those just don't click for me.

Let's hope high level star spawn are something more interesting.

[Unoriginal]

New update: One of the adventures to tie in with MToF previews 9 stat blocks for monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes: the previously mentioned Allip and Duergar Stoneguard, plus Duergar Warlord, Eidolon, Eidolon Sacred State, Elder Oblex, and three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.

Here is original reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/8g9fcl/mordenkainens_preview_adventure/)

and here is Bell of Lost Souls with stat blocks of eight (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-a-motherlode-of-monsters-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html) of those (but not Elder Oblex for some reason).

Updating list.

Having seen the Allip statblock, I can confirm that it was used by Matt Mercer in Critical Role season 2 episode 16, as the boss of an abandoned necromantic research facility.

Duergar Warlord is interesting: their mental stats make them above average nd even pretty charismatic, but not incredibly so, their Call to Attack only work on Duergar, but their high STR and CON as well as their multiattacks make it pretty clear how they managed to get the rank. It ties really well with how the Duergar favor practicality over imagination.

Duergar Stone Guard's use of a King's Knife is very interesting. It clearly has some kind of cultural significance, even though it's not the best weapon they could have. Even a regular hammer (of the same kind the Warlord has, but without the psychic link) would up the damages.

Also damn those Duergars are strong. Should definitively show off that 18 STR as a DM.

Eidolon and Sacred Statue are an incredible idea. A technically weak CR 12 enemy that can reveal its true power when paired with a CR 0 one -or several.

[strangebloke]

I love the combos built into the Eidolon and starspawn.

The Eidolon combo is just fantastic as a high-level puzzle monster. Set up five statues in a room and watch it go to work. The best part is that if the party is stupid they can keep facing the thing over and over again. "That thing was only CR 12? Are you kidding me?"

With Starspawn, I see the manglers bursting from stealth over and over while a couple of hulks wade into combat, and the Seer fires orb after orb at the hulks, cascading to damage the party. Very weird combo of abilities, and super fitting, given the themes.

[Regitnui]

Hmm... I'm going to have to do some thinking over those creatures... I do like that they're populating the Far Realm (which is not so Far in my preferred setting), and that Eidolon sounds like just the thing to drive my players batty in an otherwise boring field of "standing stones"...

[Beechgnome]

I found the stat block for Elder Oblex. It is a CR 10 ooze that drains memories and can create duplicates of creatures it consumes. It is very awesome. Juiblex be praised.

I cannot attach image from my phone but here is the link:

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/hSf4R67

[EvilAnagram]

I found the stat block for Elder Oblex. It is a CR 10 ooze that drains memories and can create duplicates of creatures it consumes. It is very awesome. Juiblex be praised.

I cannot attach image from my phone but here is the link:

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/hSf4R67
The Star Spawn and Oblex all look pretty damn sweet.

[Devcon1]

Is it just me, or does the Elder Oblex almost resemble a more powerful ooze-version of obliviax (memory moss)?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Seems like a reasonably cool thing to use to spice up Blingdenstone in OotA.

[strangebloke]

Man, I really want to use the Elder Oblex as an evil mob boss now. The council-of-seven that rules the streets are actually all simulacrums of the mighty Elder Oblex!

[Unoriginal]

"Oblex, no, you fell in the magic potion when you were a little boy."

[the_brazenburn]

"Oblex, no, you fell in the magic potion when you were a little boy."

Hmph. These Romans are crazy!

[Regitnui]

Hmph. These Romans are crazy!

That's Oblex the Younger!

[Tanngrisnr]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before on this thread, but the game Idle Champions of the Realms has potencially spolied the art for the Ogre bolter, Ogre battering ram, Spring Eladrin and Summer Eladrin. And maybe some of the new Drow.

So far, the game has only used the official published images of the creatures in WotC books (I believe the game developer is contractualy oliged to do that). The ogres were part of a game event a few weeks past (sorry, I can't provide images of that) and the eladrin are part of the game event that started today. I cannot search the Drow images right now, as I'm in the middle of another game mission.

https://ibb.co/iAr8jS

https://ibb.co/g8BijS

[Beechgnome]

The latest fireside chat showed a Corpse Flower in MToF, which I want to say is undead based on the art, but could be classified as a plant. It is macabre, and not much like the real-life corpse flowers.

Link to screen grabs: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/05/05/new-images-reveal-3-new-alternate-tiefling-with-different-traits/

Off topic, but of note: it looks the Mephistopheles Tiefling (the legacy of Cania) was nerfed/altered, with its spells changing from Magic Missile and web to burning hands and flame blade.

[Beechgnome]

The Dragon+ Chat today on Twitch is going over the art in MToF and they break down some of the monsters.

New additions include the Sorrow Sworn, which includes The Wretched, The Lost and The Lonely but also The Angry and The Hungry. It's not clear if they are undead or demons. The art is pretty cool.

The video also confirms there are five Abashai devils, one for each chromatic dragon.

Plus the Rutterkin demon.

They also show art for the Nightwalker, Giff, Marut and Sea elves (presumably listed as a player race).

[Beechgnome]

Also, in the Dragon+ video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFF2cby0OYU) they showed art for a monster that looked like a woman with a red throbbing ooze entwined around her, and faces of horror in the ooze, but did not reveal what it was, saying only it would be discussed later.

It's at the 54:24 mark. Anyone know what that is?

EDIT: it occurs to me that this might be the Elder Oblex, and the woman one of its simalacrums. Either way, the art is amazing.

[Unoriginal]

Also, in the Dragon+ video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFF2cby0OYU) they showed art for a monster that looked like a woman with a red throbbing ooze entwined around her, and faces of horror in the ooze, but did not reveal what it was, saying only it would be discussed later.

It's at the 54:24 mark. Anyone know what that is?

EDIT: it occurs to me that this might be the Elder Oblex, and the woman one of its simalacrums. Either way, the art is amazing.

Apparently it's a new monster, or at least a new design.

it looks like an evolved form of a Gibbering Mouther, so maybe you're right and it's the Elder Oblex.

Edit:

Man the Eidolon is just pure amazing. I love it.

I also love the Giff artworks and sketches, as well as the one with the Sea Elves fighting the Sahuigan Baron.

[EvilAnagram]

Also, in the Dragon+ video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFF2cby0OYU) they showed art for a monster that looked like a woman with a red throbbing ooze entwined around her, and faces of horror in the ooze, but did not reveal what it was, saying only it would be discussed later.

It's at the 54:24 mark. Anyone know what that is?

EDIT: it occurs to me that this might be the Elder Oblex, and the woman one of its simalacrums. Either way, the art is amazing.

You know, I was pretty resigned to not purchasing this book, but I'm a sucker for gorgeous art, and some of these are fantastic. The sea elves and Nightwalker in particular.

[Beechgnome]

Adding Drow house captain. Latest preview includes it and the Drow inquisitor. I like that the Drow captain's battle command let's an ally take the dodge action too. Good way to aid an ally by negating advantage.

https://www.tabletopgaming.co.uk/images/files/Mord_Drow.pdf

[Unoriginal]

Adding Drow house captain. Latest preview includes it and the Drow inquisitor. I like that the Drow captain's battle command let's an ally take the dodge action too. Good way to aid an ally by negating advantage.

https://www.tabletopgaming.co.uk/images/files/Mord_Drow.pdf

I like how the different Commander-type enemies all have slightly different boost-your-allies abilities tied to their natures. The Drow House Captain being able to order their allies to Dodge or Hide as a bonus action is very fitting indeed.

Also I like how the Captain's whip gives advantage if used on an ally.

For the Inquisitor, their ability to auto-detect lies is great. It's the kind of details that change an impressive statblock into a kind of characters you go "oh ****" when they're involved.

[Beechgnome]

Ho-boy, another hour, another preview: Zarial is confirmed. From Bell of Lost Souls:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-check-out-zariel-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/zariel-art.jpg

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Zariel-Mordenkainens-Stats.jpg

Edit: One missing piece here is here Horrid Touch. She poisons you no saving throw, but then you get a saving throw to end the effect, but no DC. Seems like they need to get started on the first errata.

[Beechgnome]

Also adding Alkilith demon based on this tweet from an illustrator: https://twitter.com/claudiopozas/status/994913217834094594

There sure are a lot of fiends in this book. I guess we can run a proper lower planes adventure/campaign now.

[EvilAnagram]

Ho-boy, another hour, another preview: Zarial is confirmed. From Bell of Lost Souls:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-check-out-zariel-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/zariel-art.jpg

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Zariel-Mordenkainens-Stats.jpg

Edit: One missing piece here is here Horrid Touch. She poisons you no saving throw, but then you get a saving throw to end the effect, but no DC. Seems like they need to get started on the first errata.

Good catch on the save.

Still, that's some gorgeous art, and I love her abilities. If she catches you off guard, she coo could slaughter an epic party.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks for the finds!

Man, I love Zariel.

Though some of the choices they went for her abilities are a bit strange. Like, only two attacks per round?

Still, she's awesome, and her art is lovely.




There sure are a lot of fiends in this book

Well yeah, they announced it.


If she catches you off guard, she coo could slaughter an epic party.

Even if she doesn't catch them off-guard, she would have a decent chance to do that.




Interesting thing to note: Zariel has +8 of proficiency bonus. Literally better than any mortal.

[Beechgnome]

I hesitate to bring up this find, since it is a bit sneaky, but the Instagram account Major Spoilers posted a few page flips from the book. Among the reveals:

Two clockwork automations: An Oaken Bolter and a Clockwork Stone Defender (the guy with two shields) plus an unnamed pic of a clockwork frog.
Howlers (I loved these crazy pandemonium guys)
Phoenix confirmed.
More demons: Maurezhi, another one that starts with a D (can't make it out) and The Wretched appears to be called Abyssal Wretch in the book. So maybe they aren't sorrowspawn.
Kruthiks.

EDIT: One that starts with a D is a Dybbuk.

[Envyus]

Thanks for the finds!

Man, I love Zariel.

Though some of the choices they went for her abilities are a bit strange. Like, only two attacks per round?

Still, she's awesome, and her art is lovely.



Well yeah, they announced it.



Even if she doesn't catch them off-guard, she would have a decent chance to do that.




Interesting thing to note: Zariel has +8 of proficiency bonus. Literally better than any mortal.

Thats not too interesting. A +8 is what you get at CR 26.

[Envyus]

I hesitate to bring up this find, since it is a bit sneaky, but the Instagram account Major Spoilers posted a few page flips from the book. Among the reveals:

Two clockwork automations: An Oaken Bolter and a Clockwork Stone Defender (the guy with two shields) plus an unnamed pic of a clockwork frog.
Howlers (I loved these crazy pandemonium guys)
Phoenix confirmed.
More demons: Maurezhi, another one that starts with a D (can't make it out) and The Wretched appears to be called Abyssal Wretch in the book. So maybe they aren't sorrowspawn.
Kruthiks.

EDIT: One that starts with a D is a Dybbuk.

There is also a sticker picture of Titivilus.

[Beechgnome]

There is also a sticker picture of Titivilus.

Yeah, caught that too. We are almost at a hundred monsters, or at least 100 stat blocks known. Since they only have about 130-140 pages for the bestiary, not sure how much more they can cram in there.

[Beechgnome]

Evidently today is review/spoiler day: io9 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/get-a-downright-demonic-look-at-the-devils-and-cults-yo-1825959601)has two more devils mentioned: the Amnizu (formerly Styx) devil, and the Narguzon, paladins who make a pact and join the hells.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--jEWO93jT--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/riiyshosm2lpg2zksxmj.png

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--v-TkMAd5--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/acrzv1hgpixyu0fumzxp.png

So, yeah. I'm buying this book

[EvilAnagram]

Evidently today is review/spoiler day: io9 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/get-a-downright-demonic-look-at-the-devils-and-cults-yo-1825959601)has two more devils mentioned: the Amnizu (formerly Styx) devil, and the Narguzon, paladins who make a pact and join the hells.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--jEWO93jT--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/riiyshosm2lpg2zksxmj.png

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--v-TkMAd5--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/acrzv1hgpixyu0fumzxp.png

So, yeah. I'm buying this book

Damn. I think I am, too.

[Envyus]

Damn. I think I am, too.

Why were you against buying the book at first out of curiosity?

[Unoriginal]

Thats not too interesting. A +8 is what you get at CR 26.

You're right. Must have been confused by the STR mod of the other CR 26 I saw.

[EvilAnagram]

Why were you against buying the book at first out of curiosity?

The information that was coming out didn't interest me, and it seemed like it was mostly geared towards exploring the Great Wheel, which my home setting does not have. Moreover, I don't like the shared material plane history, and the first few monsters released weren't terribly interesting to me both artistically and mechanically. I loved Moloch's fluff, for example, but the rest of him just didn't pique my interest.

The art released over the last two weeks, however, has been absolutely gorgeous, and I'm enjoying the stat blocks of more of the monsters.

[mephnick]

Damn the Narguzon is nasty. Gonna have to switch my new campaign around to fit some devil action in.

[Beechgnome]

Adding Githyanki Gish (self-explanatory) and Kith'rak (a general of sorts looks like). Based on this screen-grab tweet:

https://twitter.com/fistfullofdice/status/995373818083532800?s=21

[Millstone85]

Githyanki Gish (self-explanatory)I thought "gish" started as a fan term derived from "gith", as most githyanki are magical swordsmen?

[Beechgnome]

Well, this thread is pretty much wrapped up folks. The same guy on Twitter posted the monster list by challenge rating.

The major takeaways:

more Yugoloths than I was expecting and more ogres and trolls too, but not much else we didn't already have.

And for the mild disappointments, lots of deposed devils and lieutenants and Arch-Dukes but Zariel is the only one of the nine who appears to have made the cut. And as far as I can tell, Phoenix is the only celestial and the Marut did not appear to bring it's Inevitable friends.

Major spoiler: https://twitter.com/fistfullofdice/status/995054993328820224?s=21

[Envyus]

I thought "gish" started as a fan term derived from "gith", as most githyanki are magical swordsmen?

Nope the term gish was what the Githyanki Magic Knights were called. And fans eventually started using the term referring to any D&D Magic Knight.

[Envyus]

Strange that Oinoloth seems to be a Yugoloth on that chart.

[Millstone85]

Nope the term gish was what the Githyanki Magic Knights were called. And fans eventually started using the term referring to any D&D Magic Knight.So it actually started as a gith gish. That must have been fun.

[Unoriginal]

Strange that Oinoloth seems to be a Yugoloth on that chart.

Why is that strange? All the references about him I've found said he was a Yugoloth, or at least has been one.

[Envyus]

Why is that strange? All the references about him I've found said he was a Yugoloth, or at least has been one.

It's strange cause the Oinoloth is a unique fiend, the title given to the one sitting in the throne of the Tower of Khin-Oin. The ruler of all Yugoloths in the Grey Wastes of Hades. Back in 1e the Holder of that title was Anthraxus a powerful Altraloth (An Altraloth is a unique Yugoloth like a Demon Lord or Duke of Hell). He was replaced by a powerful Ultroloth in 2e, but got the title back at the end of 3e if I recall correctly.

The thing that is strange is that the Oinoloth is listed as a CR 12 monster in that book, which is weaker then a normal Ultroloth.

Also for some reason the Piscoloth is in the book, which is kind of strange as it's the only notable Yugoloth missing.

[Millstone85]

My big disappointment is that star spawn seem to come in these five flavors:
* star spawn grue, CR 1/4
* star spawn mangler, CR 5
* star spawn hulk, CR 10
* star spawn seer, CR 13
* star spawn larva mage, CR 16

So yeah, it is these guys:
https://img00.deviantart.net/c3e7/i/2008/150/4/3/foulspawn_by_daveallsop.jpg
but with the sword-wielding one in the middle replaced by a larva mage. And that's it.

I knew about the ushemoi/foulspawn being star spawn now, but I was still hoping for things like the Maw of Acamar:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warriorsofmyth/images/f/f9/Excerpts_mm2_0417.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/318

[Beechgnome]

It's strange cause the Oinoloth is a unique fiend, the title given to the one sitting in the throne of the Tower of Khin-Oin. The ruler of all Yugoloths in the Grey Wastes of Hades. Back in 1e the Holder of that title was Anthraxus a powerful Altraloth (An Altraloth is a unique Yugoloth like a Demon Lord or Duke of Hell). He was replaced by a powerful Ultroloth in 2e, but got the title back at the end of 3e if I recall correctly.

The thing that is strange is that the Oinoloth is listed as a CR 12 monster in that book, which is weaker then a normal Ultroloth.

Also for some reason the Piscoloth is in the book, which is kind of strange as it's the only notable Yugoloth missing.

Yeah I thought the Oinoloth was way too low on power. As far for Piscoloth... Well I had a notion to convert 1e fiends and was going to convert them when I realized all of their abilities (and appearance) had been assumed by the chuul, the aboleth servants. So they would either have to change them a lot or drop them. So I'm ok with that.

[Beechgnome]

Keeping with the fiend theme, a few thoughts:

They did a reasonable job of balancing the two sides of the blood war. In the MM devils were generally weaker than the demons, but they included more lower tier demons and higher tier devils, so it balances out.

There are now 29 non-named demons and 8 demon princes, 20 non-named devils and 6 Arch-Dukes/arch-devils, and 10 Yugoloths (up from 4).

Annoyingly, while they added 10 demons, not one is CR 1/2, so summon lesser demons still doesn't quite work as it should. They did add a CR 1/2 devil, the nupperibo, likely to troll Abyssal wizards.

[EvilAnagram]

My big disappointment is that star spawn seem to come in these five flavors:
* star spawn grue, CR 1/4
* star spawn mangler, CR 5
* star spawn hulk, CR 10
* star spawn seer, CR 13
* star spawn larva mage, CR 16

So yeah, it is these guys:
https://img00.deviantart.net/c3e7/i/2008/150/4/3/foulspawn_by_daveallsop.jpg
but with the sword-wielding one in the middle replaced by a larva mage. And that's it.

I knew about the ushemoi/foulspawn being star spawn now, but I was still hoping for things like the Maw of Acamar:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warriorsofmyth/images/f/f9/Excerpts_mm2_0417.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/318

Well, that sucks. I was hoping for a monstrosity that sucks the life out of the world around it, ravaging the countryside and heralding the end of times.

A kind of gross mook is a bit of a letdown. And they were on such a solid streak, too.