How to strengthen the Ember Guard to beat CR20 Opponents?

[magicalmagicman]

Ember Guards are in the MM5 p.52

I made this thread last month:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550555-Which-construct-looks-like-Infernals-from-Warcraft-III
I found an awesome picture for my Ember Guard:https://i.pinimg.com/originals/08/f2/e7/08f2e768269a821e7cbc805883a53a54.jpg

And I fell in love with the Ember Guard ever since, so much that I want to try using them all the way to level 20! As in I want to beat a Pit Fiend or a Balor senseless with one.

MM5 says a flamebrother salamander is capable of staying inside the Ember Guard, so I'm gonna play a Cleric that transforms into a flamebrother salamander via Phylactery of Change or some other fire immune creature that is probably not an outsider and stays inside it, buffing it from the inside.

Now the problem here is that monsters don't receive experience, which means the only way the Ember Guard is going to scale is through magic items and buffs.

I read this:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items, but all those options are defensive. Not that that's a bad thing, but I'm stumped trying to increase this guy's damage output.

Just to be clear, after acquiring Ember Guards at level 11, I intend to sink 100% of my wealth by level into this guy. I will essentially be playing as an Ember Guard who gets a cleric buff placed on him as a free action every round.

So what equipment loadout and buff spells do you recommend so that this guy can beat the living **** out of every cr20 monster in the game?

Equipment are -, Buffs are +

With an AC of 33, and Balors having an attack of +33, I figured I'd start by beefing up his AC all the way to 53 so only a nat 20 can hit him.
-Mithral Breast Plate enchanted with Magic Vestment gives +10 AC with 0 armor check penalty. Only 10 more AC to go.
-Animated Heavy Mithral Shield with Magic Vestment gives +7 AC with 0 armor check penalty. Only 3 more AC to go.
+Shield of Faith gives +5 AC, so I hit my quota!

As for attack, Pit Fiends have AC of 40, so I want an attack of at least +39 so I miss only on a natural 1. Emberguards have +22 to hit.
-Cold Iron or Silvered Greatsword that has an Align Weapon (Good) cast on it along with Greater Magic Weapon to bypass damage reduction or regeneration. 12 more to go.
+Righteous Wrath of the Faithful gives +3 to hit and an extra attack like Haste. 9 more to go.
+Bull's Strength (duh). 7 more to go
+Recitation gives +2 luck to attack. 5 more to go.
+Elation gives +2 morale to strength. 4 more to go.

As for damage, Ember Guards have 1d8+10 +1d6fire. Two-handed Greatsword turns it into 4d6+15 damage. (outsider is proficient with all martial weapons, forgot about this!)
-The Greatsword with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it turns it into 4d6+20.
+Bull's Strength boosts it to 4d6+23
+Elation boosts it to 4d6+24
+Righteous Wrath of the Faithful increases his full attack to 4 attacks. Each hit does 38 a hit.

For Miscellaneous stuff...
-Phoenix Cloak for flight.
-Third Eye Conceal for immunity to mind-affecting spells.
+Obviously endless amount of Cure Critical Wounds and Heal

And this is as much as I know. Looking into caster level boosters to counter their at-will greater dispel magic. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Elation, and Recitation are immune to dispel magic because they are auras centered around my cleric, who has total cover from my opponents because hes inside the Ember Guard, so i guess boosting my dispel magic caster level isn't that important.

[magicalmagicman]

Weird... I thought this forum was full of mundane experts who can fully outfit subpar mundane builds like TWF or Whirlwind with awesome magic equipment to the point they could solo cr20 encounters.

This is surprising!

[Eldariel]

Well let's see. You could of course use the Magic Jar trick (basically, cast Magic Jar, take over a body, cast a second Magic Jar and reside in it while an underling takes the first out of range and then breaks it, breaking the first spell without killing you while ending the other soul, return from the second body to your newly Grand Theft Bodied body and reside in ad infinitum) or True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) (purchase items and Use Psionic Device for early access; dorjes go up to 9th level powers for example). Taking the body permanently would enable you to level up naturally while in it.

That said, with your present plan... Fire Immunity is trivial to acquire through Energy Immunity, though you could also just get Mantle of the Fiery Spirit [Sandstorm] cast on you for permanent fire subtype. Other options include Polymorph Any Object and its ilk of course (of course, you could even use the Permanent Polymorph Any Object combo combined with Assume Supernatural Ability [Savage Species] or Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) to become one yourself permanently complete with the supernatural abilities).

Now, the question itself. First of all, you'll also have to mind the nature of equipment. Pumping hit is harder equipment-wise than pumping e.g. damage, AC or anything else, beyond the +5 weapon. Generally the most efficient way of buffing accuracy is by buffing stats. And most of the few existing items overlap with Cleric buffs or other spells (True Strike Bracers exist off the top of my head). If you took Southern Magician [Races of Faerun] (basically cast your divine spells as arcane, qualification and such) and combined it with Spellguard of Silverymoon [Player's Guide to Faerun] or somehow gave your Ember Guard Share Spells, you could imbue it with stuff like Bite of the Werebear for +16 enhancement to Strength, Holy/Infernal Transformation for +4 sacred/profane to strength and Greater Visage of the Deity for +4 untyped to Strength. You could also use Spell domain for Draconic Polymorph turning the Ember Guard into an Ember Guard with +8 base Strength. All of those spells improve saves so they qualify for Spellguard of Silverymoon. You could also share Divine Power since it grants temporary HP giving your Ember Guard BAB equal to your caster level (which you can buff to high heaven).

Without that, you can still access Elation [Book of Exalted Deeds] for +2 morale to Strength and Girallon's Blessing+Fuse Arms [Spell Compendium] for +4 untyped Strength. All these numbers could be improved by additional +2 if you took Ability Enhancer [DR325]. Interfaith Blessing [Complete Champion] would probably grant attack bonuses depending on probably the Elemental Princes' tendencies (I'd say to hit). Far as items go, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone is +1 and Haste from e.g. Boots of Speed is +1. Wraithstrike [Spell Compendium] is a bit harder to get on them (doesn't qualify for Spellguard's ability) but if granted, it would make all the attacks touch attacks, which would solve much of the matter.

Other effects of interest include somehow giving it pounce (eh, maybe Psychic Reformation it?) and combining that with a +1 Valorous [Unapproachable East] weapon for double damage on a charge, and perhaps if you managed to make it work, something like Spikes [Spell Compendium] for caster level to damage.

You could actually reach sufficient numbers to knock Big T off it's socks eventually. However, you'll have to tend to your defenses against spells. It's stuck at 13HD (unless you go into Polymorph > Awaken loops or whatever but that kinda renders this whole exercise moot), so things like Holy Word and Word of Chaos are highly dangerous. More generally, spells are always more dangerous than physical attacks. Buff its saves and use spells like Greater Spell Immunity and Spell Resistance for the rest.

Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)) contains a rather solid listing of the various buffs of interest so you may wish to peruse that. Magic items are more useful for making your spells stick and doing unique things. I mean, you could always get a Brilliant Energy blade, or just cast Brilliant Blade/Aura [Spell Compendium] and kinda not mind that. Same with most things. Metalline Weapon [Magic Item Compendium] might be useful for overcoming DR in general though; then just cast the appropriate Align and you're good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

First, it's uncertain whether you can actually act inside an ember guard. But, assuming that's solved...

Ideally you'll want your ember guard to be your familiar, animal companion, or special mount. I don't think it's a very convincing familiar, but it's arguably a suitable mount to any flamebrother salamander. As CR 13 creature, it should be appropriate for a level 16 or 17 paladin (I don't remember the exact guideline), but maybe you can convince your DM to let you use one at a lower level by giving up some of the HD/stats.

[magicalmagicman]

Ok, so what I'm hearing is that non-custom-magic items aren't that great, and that you can't turn a featless fighter into a god with only magic items. This is surprising! And people say 3.5 is broken.

If I wanted to go the body switch route I'd go astral seed + mind switch + gate since it's significantly cheaper than true mind switch and it's not TO like the magic jar trick. However I don't want to become an Ember Guard, I just want one to fight for me throughout the entire game. An important difference is that if the Ember Guard dies, my character can just plane shift away and get another one, where as if he is the Ember Guard, if he dies he's dead. Another is that my character can lie down, relax, sip a cup of tea while the Ember Guard destroys everything and everyone around him. A true class act.

Share Spell or similar thing that involves the Ember Guard becoming my cohort via a class feature is also not something I'm really looking for especially since it starts marching into homebre territory.

Girallon's blessing is amazing! Question:If I get 4 claw attacks, would the Ember Guard have 2 slams + 4 claw attacks? Since the slams are natural weapons not manufactured weapons, and technically you don't have to slam with hands to do a slam attack.

-Pale Green Ioun Stone
+Girallon's Blessing
+Greater Spell Immunity
+Spell Resistance
-/+Haste


First, it's uncertain whether you can actually act inside an ember guard. But, assuming that's solved...

I don't think it's uncertain at all...

[Eldariel]

Ok, so what I'm hearing is that non-custom-magic items aren't that great, and that you can't turn a featless fighter into a god with only magic items. This is surprising! And people say 3.5 is broken.

That's not it. Just, the broken items are too broken to use and most of the uses for items in general are to directly replicate spells. Thus as a caster you don't really care that much, since you can just cast the spell instead. Candle of Invocation and the like are of course out of bounds simply by having ridiculous effects. Fighter turns into a God by casting Gate or Shapechange or Planar Binding or Simulacrum or the like; those are accessed via. scrolls, wands, staves, etc. This is something any Commoner can do and something that enables ascension to transcendence.

Basically, non-casters become casters with magic items while casters become better casters (that can leech off others' lists) with magic items. Casters use magic to improve magic while mundanes use magic to gain magic. While the absolute advantage might favour casters, the relative advantage allows mundanes to become omnipotent, which is still an infinite leap from not being omnipotent. Generally spells do numbers better than items though and numbers are ultimately of rather low importance.


If I wanted to go the body switch route I'd go astral seed + mind switch + gate since it's significantly cheaper than true mind switch and it's not TO like the magic jar trick. However I don't want to become an Ember Guard, I just want one to fight for me throughout the entire game. An important difference is that if the Ember Guard dies, my character can just plane shift away and get another one, where as if he is the Ember Guard, if he dies he's dead. Another is that my character can lie down, relax, sip a cup of tea while the Ember Guard destroys everything and everyone around him. A true class act.

There's about a billion ways to safeguard yourself against death but fair enough. Though Magic Jar trick isn't necessarily that TO; it's not that bad considering the effect exists as a power already.


Share Spell or similar thing that involves the Ember Guard becoming my cohort via a class feature is also not something I'm really looking for especially since it starts marching into homebre territory.

There might be a way (Pally as mentioned) to get it as a companion the oldfashioned way, which would give you the ability to easily cast stuff on it without having to deal with Southern Magician and Spellguard of Silverymoon. That said if that's a no-go, we'll work with that.


Girallon's blessing is amazing! Question:If I get 4 claw attacks, would the Ember Guard have 2 slams + 4 claw attacks? Since the slams are natural weapons not manufactured weapons, and technically you don't have to slam with hands to do a slam attack.

Eh, slam isn't an unarmed strike, it's generally done with the fists on creatures with two. Also, generally creatures with slam use either slam or their natural attack routine (see e.g. Dustform creature [Sandstorm], so I'd go with "no" but that's firmly in the "ask the DM"-territory.


-Pale Green Ioun Stone
+Girallon's Blessing
+Greater Spell Immunity
+Spell Resistance
-/+Haste

If you want generally useful spells, you obviously want Freedom of Movement and Death Ward because dying and being disabled is for chumps. Items, yeah, you can definitely focus on just improving your own ability to buff it to get it further up.

[magicalmagicman]

That's not it. Just, the broken items are too broken to use and most of the uses for items in general are to directly replicate spells. Thus as a caster you don't really care that much, since you can just cast the spell instead. Candle of Invocation and the like are of course out of bounds simply by having ridiculous effects. Fighter turns into a God by casting Gate or Shapechange or Planar Binding or Simulacrum or the like; those are accessed via. scrolls, wands, staves, etc. This is something any Commoner can do and something that enables ascension to transcendence.

Basically, non-casters become casters with magic items while casters become better casters (that can leech off others' lists) with magic items. Casters use magic to improve magic while mundanes use magic to gain magic. While the absolute advantage might favour casters, the relative advantage allows mundanes to become omnipotent, which is still an infinite leap from not being omnipotent. Generally spells do numbers better than items though and numbers are ultimately of rather low importance.

Yeah so you're saying if you use magic items to emulate the game breaking spells, magic items are broken, but if you use magic items to just beef up your stats for normal combat, magic items aren't that spectacular.


There might be a way (Pally as mentioned) to get it as a companion the oldfashioned way, which would give you the ability to easily cast stuff on it without having to deal with Southern Magician and Spellguard of Silverymoon. That said if that's a no-go, we'll work with that.

Yeah all three are a no go. I hate paladins with a passion, and Southern Magician and Spellguard aren't available to me because of their setting specific fluff. Especially Spellguard, we can't spend 5 levels in a city doing quests in the middle of a campaign.


If you want generally useful spells, you obviously want Freedom of Movement and Death Ward because dying and being disabled is for chumps. Items, yeah, you can definitely focus on just improving your own ability to buff it to get it further up.

I forgot to add those to the list. I just saw Death Ward not protecting against the balor's implosion, and was like, eh, I'll add it later.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think it's uncertain at all...
You should be. You can't move or breathe while surrounded by stone and brass, and nothing in the Ember Guard description says the flamebrother gets to act.

[magicalmagicman]

You should be. You can't move or breathe while surrounded by stone and brass, and nothing in the Ember Guard description says the flamebrother gets to act.

Outsiders breathe, so if the flamebrother can stay inside the ember guard for extended periods of time, it can breathe. If the flamebrother can climb in and out of the ember guard it can act. I mean if you're a DM who doesn't like all the power this tactic gives to the player then there's nothing I can do to change your mind but I think it's a stretch to say the flamebrother can't act rather than a stretch to say the flamebrother can act. If you can cast spells while squeezing, casting spells in an even less cramped space is a no brainer.

[magicalmagicman]

If I may request a favor Eldariel, how would you fully deck out this Ember Guard top to bottom? Like what armor and weapon enchantments would you give it along with which magic items?

[Anthrowhale]

If you
(a) Shapechange into a Mind Leech (Fiend Folio) or one of the other similar creatures
(b) attach yourself
(c) cast a spell
Then the spell can be shared directly with the attached creature.

As an alternative to step (a), you can use some form of Polymorph + assume supernatural ability.

[magicalmagicman]

If you
(a) Shapechange into a Mind Leech (Fiend Folio) or one of the other similar creatures
(b) attach yourself
(c) cast a spell
Then the spell can be shared directly with the attached creature.

As an alternative to step (a), you can use some form of Polymorph + assume supernatural ability.

Very Interesting!

Mind Leech is probably a bad choice since I don't think it can cast spells (can't speak, can't make somatic movements while it is coiled around the brain stem).

Actually reading all the symbionts, they all either can't speak or can't make somatic gestures. It might be worth it to somehow fit some still and silent spells in there, but that will be incredibly feat intensive.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Outsiders breathe, so if the flamebrother can stay inside the ember guard for extended periods of time, it can breathe. If the flamebrother can climb in and out of the ember guard it can act. I mean if you're a DM who doesn't like all the power this tactic gives to the player then there's nothing I can do to change your mind but I think it's a stretch to say the flamebrother can't act rather than a stretch to say the flamebrother can act. If you can cast spells while squeezing, casting spells in an even less cramped space is a no brainer.
It's really rather implied that the flamebrother is kept inside the ember guard in stasis, simply being transported from A to B without having much of a say in it (it is, by far, the weakest creature in the encounter, and prophecy doesn't care for personal comfort). In that case, it would be unconscious and trapped, perhaps pinned by the ember guard, who would enjoy automatic success on grapple checks against an unconscious creature.

I'm not saying that it definitely is, but I think you're assuming way too much about what you can do from what is essentially one line of flavour text. Unless you have an actual rule or DM permission letting you act, being physically inside another creature (surrounded by it on all sides), and then a creature made of rock, means you can't act. I mean, if you think the mind leech is a bad option because it can't make somatic gestures, I wonder how you're going to make them when you have a foot of sentient molten rock wrapped around each appendage.

[magicalmagicman]

It's really rather implied that the flamebrother is kept inside the ember guard in stasis, simply being transported from A to B without having much of a say in it (it is, by far, the weakest creature in the encounter, and prophecy doesn't care for personal comfort). In that case, it would be unconscious and trapped, perhaps pinned by the ember guard, who would enjoy automatic success on grapple checks against an unconscious creature.

I'm not saying that it definitely is, but I think you're assuming way too much about what you can do from what is essentially one line of flavour text. Unless you have an actual rule or DM permission letting you act, being physically inside another creature (surrounded by it on all sides), and then a creature made of rock, means you can't act. I mean, if you think the mind leech is a bad option because it can't make somatic gestures, I wonder how you're going to make them when you have a foot of sentient molten rock wrapped around each appendage.

We're just imagining the Ember Guard differently. You view him like some kind of creature made of clay and when you stick a lizard on it, it sucks it in like quicksand and suffocates it. I view him like a rock monster capable of making holes in his body for breathing holes, enter/exit holes, and storage, so a lizard can crawl inside it and crawl out at-will.

[Eldariel]

If I may request a favor Eldariel, how would you fully deck out this Ember Guard top to bottom? Like what armor and weapon enchantments would you give it along with which magic items?

That would be a colossal undertaking for which I don't have the time right now. I can get back to you down the line and I can give you tips but exhaustive doublechecking of all the possible effects and sources would take too long right now, though a couple of months from now might be plausible. In the absence of all that though, there are other threads about optimising high level characters and their equipment so trying to search and peruse those would be my recommendation.

[magicalmagicman]

That would be a colossal undertaking for which I don't have the time right now. I can get back to you down the line and I can give you tips but exhaustive doublechecking of all the possible effects and sources would take too long right now, though a couple of months from now might be plausible. In the absence of all that though, there are other threads about optimising high level characters and their equipment so trying to search and peruse those would be my recommendation.

Ok, fair enough, nevermind then. Thanks for all your help! Magic Equipment is a lot more complicated than I thought it is. I should spend the time right now to learn it.