Unarmed Strike, Gauntlets, Slam Attack, and Grapple

[sorcererlover]

If a medium humanoid with gauntlets succeeds in a grapple, is the unarmed strike lethal?
If the gauntlet is enchanted with flaming, shocking, or freezing, do you deal the energy damage when you succeed the grapple?
Same question if the humanoid wins a grapple check while maintaining a grapple.

If a construct with a slam attack succeeds in a grapple, do you deal its slam attack as the unarmed strike damage?
If a construct with a slam attack wears gauntlets enchanted with flaming, shocking, or freezing, is his slam attack now include the gauntlet energy damage?
How about during grapples?
What if the construct with a slam attack has energy damage enchanted onto its slam attack and wears the gauntlets? Do the slam attack energy damage get added to the gauntlets?

I asked on the FAQ but no one answered.

[Rijan_Sai]

If a medium humanoid with gauntlets succeeds in a grapple, is the unarmed strike lethal?
If the gauntlet is enchanted with flaming, shocking, or freezing, do you deal the energy damage when you succeed the grapple?
Same question if the humanoid wins a grapple check while maintaining a grapple.

If a construct with a slam attack succeeds in a grapple, do you deal its slam attack as the unarmed strike damage?
If a construct with a slam attack wears gauntlets enchanted with flaming, shocking, or freezing, is his slam attack now include the gauntlet energy damage?
How about during grapples?
What if the construct with a slam attack has energy damage enchanted onto its slam attack and wears the gauntlets? Do the slam attack energy damage get added to the gauntlets?

I asked on the FAQ but no one answered.

Just looking through the PHB, I can say that for the first question: Yes.
The attack would be considered lethal damage (per the gauntlet), and any enhancements on the gauntlet would apply.
I believe, however, that damaging an opponent simply by winning a grapple check only applies if you have Improved Grab... someone with more knowledge than myself will need to confirm/deny this...

Second Question:
A slam attack is considered a natural weapon, so would be available during a grapple. It would not, however, work with a gauntlet; you would have to choose one or the other.

[The Viscount]

I agree the first answer is yes.

For an enchanted gauntlet, I believe the answer is also yes, since that's the damage your unarmed strike now deals.

If you win a grapple check while maintaining a grapple, it does not automatically deal the damage. The damage is only dealt if you use the option "damage your opponent" and roll the check with the express purpose of grappling them. This is true even of creatures with improved grab and constrict. The srd does not do a great job of making this clear, but the Rules Compendium helps.

A creature with a slam does not deal that damage on a grapple check to deal damage unless they have improved grab with the slam. A slam is not the same as an unarmed strike.
A construct with a slam and a gauntlet would only add the energy damage to attacks with the gauntlet. Attacks with slam do not trigger the energy damage.
If the construct's slam is enchanted, the energy damage does not apply to attacks made with a gauntlet. A slam is not the same as an unarmed strike.

[Necroticplague]

If a medium humanoid with gauntlets succeeds in a grapple, is the unarmed strike lethal?
Define what you mean by 'succeeds in a grapple'. Yes, it does turn the 'damage an opponent' grapple option into lethal damage, since that's 'equivalent to an unarmed strike'.

If the gauntlet is enchanted with flaming, shocking, or freezing, do you deal the energy damage when you succeed the grapple?Yes. Since a strike with a guantlet is considered an unarmed attack, then you can use the guantlet for the unarmed strike equivalence the grapple check to do damage does.


Same question if the humanoid wins a grapple check while maintaining a grapple.Grapple checks to maintain control of the grapple don't do damage. The grapple check to do damage is seperate from the grapple check to maintain control.


If a construct with a slam attack succeeds in a grapple, do you deal its slam attack as the unarmed strike damage?No. A slam attack is not an unarmed strike. It's an entirely seperate natural weapon. This makes just as much sense as if you had replaced 'slam' with 'bite'.

However, there is a feat explicitly to allow this. Beast Strike lets you add claw or slam damage to unarmed strikes or grapple damage.


If a construct with a slam attack wears gauntlets enchanted with flaming, shocking, or freezing, is his slam attack now include the gauntlet energy damage?
Like the above, no. A slam isn't an unarmed strike, so things improving your unarmed attacks don't help them.

How about during grapples?
Irrelevant.

What if the construct with a slam attack has energy damage enchanted onto its slam attack and wears the gauntlets? Do the slam attack energy damage get added to the gauntlets? Nope. Unarmed attacks and Slams continue to be entirely distinct weapons.

[sorcererlover]

Alright thanks for clearing that up. Warforged got me confused but Beast Strike set me straight.

[Darrin]

Alright thanks for clearing that up. Warforged got me confused but Beast Strike set me straight.

If you want to get completely confused again, read the description of the battle fist. (It's a mess.)

[Rijan_Sai]

A creature with a slam does not deal that damage on a grapple check to deal damage unless they have improved grab with the slam.
A slam is not the same as an unarmed strike.

I disagree with the bolded part, only on one point:
A slam attack is a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons), and is usable on it's own in a grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapplingConsequences) without any other conditions:


Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Other than that, yes: a slam has no connection to an unarmed strike, and any modifiers to one will not affect the other.

[Necroticplague]

I disagree with the bolded part, only on one point

Note that he said "on a grapple check". Attacking with a weapon is not a grapple check, it's an attack roll.

[Rijan_Sai]

Note that he said "on a grapple check". Attacking with a weapon is not a grapple check, it's an attack roll.

Oh yes, I see... my mistake, then!

[sorcererlover]

Help me understand a bit further.

If a construct slams an opponent with his fist, he's slamming the opponent with the gauntlet too. So how come the gauntlet doesn't do anything for the slam attack? Not just for energy damage, but also for special material to bypass damage reduction?

[Necroticplague]

Are you looking for a mechanical answer, or a ludonarrative answer?

Mechanically: Unarmed Strikes, Guantlets, and Slams are seperate weapons. However, the second has text that lets it count as the first, while the third does no. Cut and dry, no real room for confusion. Unless you can find some text indicating a slam is an unarmed strike, it isn't one.

Ludonarratively: Never says that a slam attack is made with your fists. It does mention arms, but that's A:only for Large creatures, and B: still not hands. In another part, it simply refers to an 'appendage'. Even the feat that givees you another slam involves taking advantage of your 'form', not your hand. By all appearences, a slam attack can be almost any form of body-check for Medium or smaller creatures, and any kind of elbow strike or shoulder check for Large and bigger creatures.

[sorcererlover]

Well, then how do you get a creature's natural attack to bypass damage reduction? If covering it with gauntlets won't help, I don't know what will. And how do you make it stronger if you can't add energy damage to it?

[RedWarlock]

Amulet of Magic Fang. Not sure if it’s RAW, but many GMs allow enchanting it as you would a weapon, much as you can do armor enchants with Bracers of Armor.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, then how do you get a creature's natural attack to bypass damage reduction? If covering it with gauntlets won't help, I don't know what will. And how do you make it stronger if you can't add energy damage to it?

I just say I put cold iron/silvered metal/etc. over the creature's natural attack. It's not a weapon it's a coating. Just because it looks like a glove and fits like a glove does not make it a gauntlet. It's a glove, a metal special material glove, or shoe, or horseshoe, or "claw shoe".

[Necroticplague]

Well, then how do you get a creature's natural attack to bypass damage reduction? If covering it with gauntlets won't help, I don't know what will. And how do you make it stronger if you can't add energy damage to it?
1. Adding energy damage is a crap way to increase damage.
2. For natural weapons, the answer is typically ‘get (effectively) bigger, get stronger, get more of them’ to increase how much damage you do.
3. Necklace of Natural Attacks can let you add magic properties to your Slam, including Metaline. As would Magic Fang.
4. The fact something could be weaker if something else was true has no relation to the second things status as being true, so that’s not really any kind of case.
5. Warforged have the Silver Tracery,Cold Iron Tracery, and Shockinf Fist feats feats, since Warforged was mentioned.
6. Similarly, Thayan Gladiators have several class features improving a natural weapon to let it bypass DR and do more damage.

[sorcererlover]

1. Adding energy damage is a crap way to increase damage.
2. For natural weapons, the answer is typically ‘get (effectively) bigger, get stronger, get more of them’ to increase how much damage you do.
3. Necklace of Natural Attacks can let you add magic properties to your Slam, including Metaline. As would Magic Fang.
4. The fact something could be weaker if something else was true has no relation to the second things status as being true, so that’s not really any kind of case.
5. Warforged have the Silver Tracery,Cold Iron Tracery, and Shockinf Fist feats feats, since Warforged was mentioned.
6. Similarly, Thayan Gladiators have several class features improving a natural weapon to let it bypass DR and do more damage.

Do you have any objections to what someonenoone11 suggested?

[Necroticplague]

Do you have any objections to what someonenoone11 suggested?

Yes, I do, assuming you're talking about the claw glove concept.

[sorcererlover]

Yes, I do, assuming you're talking about the claw glove concept.

What's wrong with it?

[The Viscount]

What's wrong with it?

There are rules for bestowing properties, as necroticplague explained. Using a metal coating does not have rules to support it or explain how to decide cost, implementation, removability, etc.
What matters in your game will be what the DM says is allowed. If they agree to homebrew some rules about metal coatings, that's great.

[Seharvepernfan]

If a medium humanoid with gauntlets succeeds in a grapple, is the unarmed strike lethal?


If you're a monk.

[Necroticplague]

What's wrong with it?
Depends on what angle i'm looking at it from:
Rules wise: There's absolutely nothing saying things exist, and how to price/make them. Ergo, they don't.
Houserules-wise: Adding something like that as a houserule would appear to be blatant favoritism (due to vastly simplifying and streamlining a build), as well as completely and utterly obviating several already existant mechanics. Silver/Cold Iron Tracery, Necklace of Natural Attacks, and Thayan Gladiator indicate that adding properties and materiel-piercing to a non-UAS Natural Weapon has a notable cost. So it seems like a very poor idea to introduce something that is almost completely superior to all of these methods.

[RoboEmperor]

Depends on what angle i'm looking at it from:
Rules wise: There's absolutely nothing saying things exist, and how to price/make them. Ergo, they don't.
Houserules-wise: Adding something like that as a houserule would appear to be blatant favoritism (due to vastly simplifying and streamlining a build), as well as completely and utterly obviating several already existant mechanics. Silver/Cold Iron Tracery, Necklace of Natural Attacks, and Thayan Gladiator indicate that adding properties and materiel-piercing to a non-UAS Natural Weapon has a notable cost. So it seems like a very poor idea to introduce something that is almost completely superior to all of these methods.

I don't know about claw or bite attacks, but constructs whose slam attacks are them slamming stuff with their fists... if you're saying appropriately sized gauntlets/gloves of special metals don't do the trick then...

[Necroticplague]

I don't know about claw or bite attacks, but constructs whose slam attacks are them slamming stuff with their fists...
Any indicator the bolded is the case? If that true, you'd expect Warforged to have 2 slams, not one. They have two hands, after all.



if you're saying appropriately sized gauntlets/gloves of special metals don't do the trick then...
Then what? The rules don't support that being the case by any measure, and there are already other ways of getting that benefit.

[emeraldstreak]

If you want to get completely confused again, read the description of the battle fist. (It's a mess.)

Reads perfectly fine to me. It just refers to two unrelated things.

Still, it's possible to combine unarmed strike and slam via Beast Strike (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161). Another option exists via Two-Weapon fighting but isn't worth it IMO due to cost/loss of Strength modifiers. A Beast Strike build adds x2.5 Strength which is good for non-Girallon games.

[RoboEmperor]

Any indicator the bolded is the case? If that true, you'd expect Warforged to have 2 slams, not one. They have two hands, after all.

Just because you have two hands, or ten hands, doesn't mean you are good enough to use them all in one round.

I agree that slam attack and unarmed strike are two different things, but in warforged case, if a cold iron battlefist which is directly described as just an oversized spiked gauntlet boosts the warforged's slam attack, then it's obvious that his slam attacks are in fact using his fists, and using a normal spiked gauntlet that doesn't boost his slam attack damage should at least give him the DR penetration.

Also
Silver/Cold Iron Tracery - Warforged Exclusive, and Warforged can ignore this with battlefists
Necklace of Natural Attacks - Only magic properties, no special metal properties for overcoming DR.
Thayan Gladiator - Prestige Class so can't help any monster, especially constructs, and is restricted to FR only.

So no, there aren't "already existing mechanics" for creatures to give their natural weapons the ability to overcome DR. Metalline is used to give a weapon the ability to bypass all DR, not just one, and it's from underdark, as in not setting neutral.

[Necroticplague]

A Beast Strike build adds x2.5 Strength which is good for non-Girallon games.
A weapons' damage doesn't include STR modifier. So, using that sheet as an example, using Beast Strike for the slam adds 1d8, not 1d8+15.
There's also that natural weapons don't get 1.5STR damage, only STR, but that's more of a side point.

[Necroticplague]

I agree that slam attack and unarmed strike are two different things, but in warforged case, if a cold iron battlefist which is directly described as just an oversized spiked gauntlet boosts the warforged's slam attack, then it's obvious that his slam attacks are in fact using his fists, and using a normal spiked gauntlet that doesn't boost his slam attack damage should at least give him the DR penetration.The battlefist is a magic item. It's function and form are not intrinsically related. It makes his slams stronger not because of any result of being actively involved in the attack, but because of the magic of the battlefist. Just as it makes his unarmed strikes deal more damage, even if he kicks a person for his Unarmed Strike.


Silver/Cold Iron Tracery - Warforged Exclusive, and Warforged can ignore this with battlefists.
The bold is incorrect. The only benefit to Slam attacks the Battlefist provides is changing damage to 1d8 B/S.

Necklace of Natural Attacks - Only magic properties, no special metal properties for overcoming DR.
Transmuting, Metalline.


Thayan Gladiator - Prestige Class so can't help any monster, especially constructs, and is restricted to FR only. Fair point on the campaign-specific, but monsters can take PRCs, and that one is even pretty easy to qualify for.

[sorcererlover]

So if I understand the rules correctly, Iron Golems need metal gauntlets to do lethal damage with their grapples and unarmed strikes? WHAT DOES GAUNTLETS DO FOR IRON GOLEMS WHOSE HANDS ARE ALREADY METAL???

[RoboEmperor]

@Necroticplague
I am agreeing that by RAW, you are 100% correct. Without a doubt you are 100% correct.

Even if you say a warforged's slam attack is a headbutt, and the battlefist magically increases the headbutt damage, I am saying by RAW you are correct :P
And if you're saying we can't make the Battlefist out of Cold Iron to make it penetrate DR, I am saying by RAW you are correct.

But for tables that sometimes uses logic where there is no RAW, I'm saying I'm right.

For example, what if I completely cover the construct head to toe with cold iron full plate? So that if he strikes a demon with any part of his body with his slam attack, he's hitting with cold iron? Would you say that penetrates DR? I say yes, you'll probably say no because there are no rules saying you can.

[Seharvepernfan]

No where does it say you use slam damage when making a grapple check. I'm not sure if a slam is considered a "light weapon" or not, but if it is, you can attack with it while grappling. A slam is otherwise like an unarmed strike, except it's proficient & lethal & does a certain die of damage regardless of what the creature's unarmed strike damage ought to be based on size. An iron golem, for instance, is made entirely of metal and has a lethal slam attack, but they can also use weapons. It stands to reason that if an iron golem were wearing +1 flaming gauntlets, then it's slam attacks would have a +1 enhancement and deal the extra flaming damage.

[The Viscount]

So if I understand the rules correctly, Iron Golems need metal gauntlets to do lethal damage with their grapples and unarmed strikes? WHAT DOES GAUNTLETS DO FOR IRON GOLEMS WHOSE HANDS ARE ALREADY METAL???

The answer is that a lot of the rules were written when thinking about humanoid player characters, and not much thought was given to other creatures. Gauntlets aren't the only way to make unarmed strikes and grapples deal lethal damage, there are also effects giving you Improved Unarmed Strike that do the same. The game simply regards slams and unarmed strikes as different things. I'm sorry that I can't give you an answer that makes sense.


@Necroticplague
I am agreeing that by RAW, you are 100% correct. Without a doubt you are 100% correct.
[...]But for tables that sometimes uses logic where there is no RAW, I'm saying I'm right.

For example, what if I completely cover the construct head to toe with cold iron full plate? So that if he strikes a demon with any part of his body with his slam attack, he's hitting with cold iron? Would you say that penetrates DR? I say yes, you'll probably say no because there are no rules saying you can.

People on the board answer questions from a RAW perspective because RAW doesn't change, but the logic that is used at tables does change.
Do you not want to have a discussion about RAW?
If you want to make this a discussion about logic used at certain tables, I'm sure there are DMs that would allow this hypothetical construct to penetrate DR. I'm sure there are also DMs that wouldn't. There's not much more to say there.


No where does it say you use slam damage when making a grapple check. I'm not sure if a slam is considered a "light weapon" or not, but if it is, you can attack with it while grappling. A slam is otherwise like an unarmed strike, except it's proficient & lethal & does a certain die of damage regardless of what the creature's unarmed strike damage ought to be based on size. An iron golem, for instance, is made entirely of metal and has a lethal slam attack, but they can also use weapons. It stands to reason that if an iron golem were wearing +1 flaming gauntlets, then it's slam attacks would have a +1 enhancement and deal the extra flaming damage.

Slams, like all natural attacks, are considered light weapons. They can be used in a grapple following the normal rules for attacking an enemy with a light weapon in a grapple.
Those gauntlets applying to slams might stand to reason, but by RAW they don't.

[emeraldstreak]

There's also that natural weapons don't get 1.5STR damage, only STR, but that's more of a side point.

Yeah they do. Single primary natural weapons (like a warforged's slam) add 1.5 Str. Multiple primary natural weapons, like two claws, add x1 x1. Secondary natural weapons, ie primary bite/secondary claw/secondary claw add .5 for x1/.5./.5

As for Beast Strike, it says your "slam damage" not your "slam damage dice".

[magicalmagicman]

People on the board answer questions from a RAW perspective because RAW doesn't change, but the logic that is used at tables does change.
Do you not want to have a discussion about RAW?
If you want to make this a discussion about logic used at certain tables, I'm sure there are DMs that would allow this hypothetical construct to penetrate DR. I'm sure there are also DMs that wouldn't. There's not much more to say there.

It's not so much RAW, it's more like a lack of RAW.

someonenoone11 is saying warforged slams opponents with their fists, and adding gauntlets add DR penetration.
Necroticplague is saying there are no rules saying that so you can't do that.
Necroticplague is saying there are expensive alternatives, so those should be the only way to add DR penetration to natural attacks.
Necroticplague is also saying that slam attacks aren't just fists, it could also be a kick, or a body slam, or some other body part.
But then if that's true, then adding gauntlets should sometimes allow slam attacks to hit as DR penetrating attacks.

Then you look at creatures like Mariliths, who have either 6 longsword attacks and a tail slap, or 6 slam attacks and a tail slap, which clearly shows it is their fists that are doing the slamming.

So no matter how you look at it, gauntlets should add DR penetration to slam attacks if they're made out of a special material.

But as mentioned before, Necroticplague's argument is "There is no RAW for that, so you can't do that."

[Necroticplague]

Yeah they do. Single primary natural weapons (like a warforged's slam) add 1.5 Str. Multiple primary natural weapons, like two claws, add x1 x1. Secondary natural weapons, ie primary bite/secondary claw/secondary claw add .5 for x1/.5./.5 A warforged doesn't have only one natural weapon. It has at least two: it's unarmed strike, and it's slam.


As for Beast Strike, it says your "slam damage" not your "slam damage dice".
My point is that those are equivalent terms. Your slam damage is the dice it deals. Your STR is a modifier to that damage, not the damage itself.

[emeraldstreak]

A warforged doesn't have only one natural weapon. It has at least two: it's unarmed strike, and it's slam.

If that were the case Monster Manuals would list warforged slam attack as slam/unarmed strike, but they list it as simply slam, hence it is a single natural attack getting x1.5 Str


My point is that those are equivalent terms. Your slam damage is the dice it deals. Your STR is a modifier to that damage, not the damage itself.

I get your point, but my point is there are a zillion RAW examples of the term "damage" meaning "Dice+Str" and probably very few if any when "damage" meant "Dice only".

[RoboEmperor]

So if I understand the rules correctly, Iron Golems need metal gauntlets to do lethal damage with their grapples and unarmed strikes? WHAT DOES GAUNTLETS DO FOR IRON GOLEMS WHOSE HANDS ARE ALREADY METAL???

That's RAW for you.

If a creature's hands are a natural weapon like a slam or a claw attack, I'd say they'd deal lethal damage on an unarmed strike, because that's exactly what gauntlets do right? Turn your nonlethal fists into metal lethal fists. But this is RAI.

They'd still provoke AoOs when initiating a grapple though.

[sorcererlover]

That's RAW for you.

If a creature's hands are a natural weapon like a slam or a claw attack, I'd say they'd deal lethal damage on an unarmed strike, because that's exactly what gauntlets do right? Turn your nonlethal fists into metal lethal fists. But this is RAI.

They'd still provoke AoOs when initiating a grapple though.

If you think about an iron golem it makes sense, but then if you think about warforged the line gets weird. If it was normal attacks then warforged would just use their slam, but if they were using an unarmed strike... putting gauntlets on warforged would be redundant..

Alright so on one hand the rules make it clear a warforged's slam attack and their unarmed strike are two different things, and they use monks as an example.
On the other hand, warforged and iron golem's hands are already metal, so putting gauntlets, which is just metal gloves, on their hands is redundant and pointless.

Whatever, I'll just say to my DM that natural weapons on your hands is no different than manufactured weapons on your hands, and gauntlets are just manufactured weapons on your hands.

As for DR penetration, energy damage, and others, I'll just say these are homebrew weapons instead of gauntlets. So like if you put enchanted horseshoes on the hooves of a nightmare, it'll be priced like a gauntlet, but it will be a homebrew weapon called a horse shoe.

[The Viscount]

But as mentioned before, Necroticplague's argument is "There is no RAW for that, so you can't do that."

Necroticplague is correct. There isn't RAW for it. By RAW you cannot do it. When on the board we say that you cannot do something, we often mean that the rules do not allow it. Certainly it would be possible for you to do this for a character, and the game acknowledges that you are encouraged to use your own rules at your table, but this would be homebrew.
RAW doesn't always make sense and at times it is frustrating, but it's the rules. Of course it's reasonable to discuss rules that are hampering your fun with your DM to make a better game. But you can't say that the rules are doing something that they're not.