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View Full Version : Tis your delight on a moonlit night...



Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 12:23 AM
The Prime material plane in the homebrew setting I'm developing has six moons, one representing and connected to each inner plane. I'm considering that because of this, travel to the inner planes from the Prime (or vice versa) should only be possible at night. Would this cause any particular balance problems? Would there by any problems if the level of planar travel spells were lowered to compensate for not working half the time?

Stormcrow
2007-08-30, 12:36 AM
"When I was bound aprentice in famous linconshire..."

I think its probably not unbalancing as people wont TRY to shift during the day.

Kizara
2007-08-30, 12:40 AM
Don't lower the spell levels, those spells are hardly combat spells for the most part, and as the above poster said, people just simply won't try it during the day.

Don't touch Gate though, it should work regardless (much more potent effect, 9th-level spell, etc) and lower its level would be somewhat disasterous balance-wise, as it's already one of the top 5 best spells in the game.

Jasdoif
2007-08-30, 01:12 AM
Might I ask what would prevent a caster impatient for nightfall from teleporting to the other side of the planet, where it will be night, and then shifting?

Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 01:20 AM
Might I ask what would prevent a caster impatient for nightfall from teleporting to the other side of the planet, where it will be night, and then shifting?

There is no other side.

Stormcrow
2007-08-30, 01:20 AM
*chuckles* Good Answer.

Jasdoif
2007-08-30, 01:39 AM
There is no other side.That would account for it, yes. Just needs to be accounted for.

In any case, I can't see any compelling reason to reduce the spell level of plane shift. Its level counts for its sheer ability to cross planar boundaries at all, I don't feel that restricting the times it can function warrants making planar travel more easily accessable to lower-level characters.


I'm very curious as to the details of this, though. Is it as simple as you can shift to any of the associated planes as long as it's night? Does the related moon have to be visible? Does the moon have to be in its full phase? Come to think of it...can you travel directly between the inner planes, or do you have to stop at the Material Plane?

Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 01:47 AM
You can shift to any inner plane as long as it is night. The moons don't have phases (they aren't lit by the sun, they glow of their own accord, except the negative energy moon, which is invisible). You can travel directly between the inner planes; they're all interconnected. You can also travel to the inner planes from the Shadow plane at any time.

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-30, 02:06 AM
There is no other side.
Is it a Discworld-like setting, or what?

Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 02:09 AM
Is it a Discworld-like setting, or what?

Not really. The Prime Material is just a rectangle with only one face.

puppyavenger
2007-08-30, 08:24 AM
what happens if you telaport onto the moons?

Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 08:30 AM
You can't. They aren't actually part of the Prime Material, so they aren't a valid destination.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-30, 08:46 AM
First of all, the day/night cycle doesn't really dictate whether the moon is visible. Eclipses happen in the middle of the day. Sometimes you can see the moon in the morning/evening. That being said, your world may be different.

Over in the Tears of Blood homebrew, we've been discussing modifying planeshift so that you need to be in a specific location to shift, rather than the specific tuning fork.

When dealing with these elemental moons and breaching the fabric of reality, you should address several levels of tearing.

Natural elemental occurance. Like lighting a fire. Can you light a fire during the day?
Alchemical magic. Do tindertwigs work during the day?
magic items with elemental effects. Do they function during the day?
elemental spells. Can you create water during the day?
Elemental summoning. Can you summon elementals during the day?
Plane shifting. This seems to be your target level. Needs to be night time to plane shift to the elemental planes.
Gate. Highest level of travel. Is this usuable during the day?


Another thing to consider is making the Outer planes reachable only during the day. Or, the presence of the moons isn't what grants access, but rather the presence of sunlight inhibits the transit. Also, what happens underground?

Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 08:53 AM
The Outer Planes aren't reachable at all from the Prime, you have to be in the Plane of Shadow to get to them. The sun has no effect on planar travel; it's an output-only portal from the Positive Energy Plane. Being underground, inside or otherwise away from the sky doesn't prevent planar travel; just the moons being in the sky is enough.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-30, 09:24 AM
Could I make the suggestion that the moons/sun/cosmos doesn't actually orbit, but rather the 'sun' goes through purge cycles from the positive plane. If you are a fan of "darkest before the dawn" concept, then the sun would suddenly spring into being in the morning at full strength and then dim out slowly through the day. Eventually theres just sort of a residual halo of light (which is actual night time). It's certainly different. The whole East/West concept would get abandoned since that is based on the travel of the sun. Instead you could stick the 4 of the moons in the cardinal directions. That way your would refer to directions as Earthward (east) and Waterly (west). North/south is less convenient but I thing South (sur) was named after Surtur (the fire giant god) so fire to the south would be good. That leave air to the north (n'Airth?).

That lets you do stuff like making an unexplored boundless sea to Waterly and a rugged impenetrable mountain range to Earthward. N'Airth would have bitter cold winds and tundra while Surturly is a barren desert.

During the 'day' these moons dip down below the horizon, metaphorically going to bed in their designated terrains. At light, they rise up above the horizon and grant access to the elemental planes.

I'm not sure what those other two moons are, unless they are the energy planes. In that case one is the sun and the other is the 'anti-sun'. These two could orbit each other to occlude each other on occasion.

Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 09:40 AM
The sun and moons are indeed extinguished and recreated every cycle. The moons all move in the same direction (opposite to the sun). The Sun and the Positive energy moon are seperate entities.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-30, 09:58 AM
I think you'll be better off if they aren't physically moons but rather rifts to the various planes that open and close at varying schedules. They just HAPPEN to look like moons from the surface.

The sun seems like a similar rift, except that it is one way and much larger. Perhaps the formation of the solar rift destabilizes the other rifts, causing them to disappear. Perhaps it is the closing of the other rifts the dumps extra energy into the positive to form the larger solar rift.

Anyway, the original question was that of balance. I don't think it will have much effect mechanically, but metaphysically it will be quite incongruous to the way the world works for most players. To that end, you definitely need a cosmology primer for them.

Yakk
2007-08-30, 12:19 PM
I dunno, the ever-changing moon is just too good of a meme to throw away...

If the portals open and close, ever changing, sometimes closed, sometimes open, they would produce a similar effect -- of waxing and waning, but from their internal light, and not from the mere reflection of the solar light... They don't even have to be predictable (at the level that a player could work out -- sages might be able to predict their movement, or maybe not) or cyclical, which reduces the amount of bookkeeping required.

Are summon spells somehow restricted?

Why is there a separate positive moon and sun? Wouldn't it be simpler if the sun was just the positive moon? Then you could have some neat antagonism -- the sun having elbowed the other moons out of the day.

CasESenSITItiVE
2007-08-30, 12:48 PM
i don't see how stopping planar travel half the time would change things much. normally, when planar traveling (unless to a plane like the ethreal plane), its not a very urgent action, and could wait half a day

slexlollar89
2007-08-30, 01:39 PM
The prime i a rectangle with only one face, but what is the other side? The plane of shadow?

Citizen Joe
2007-08-30, 01:53 PM
there is no other side

Randalor
2007-08-30, 02:10 PM
"There is no other side" as in the plane is both flat and round at the same time *Go ahead, figure that one out* or "There is no other side" as in "As far as they know, and will never know"?

Thanatos 51-50
2007-08-30, 02:11 PM
The plane is a modious strip. Is obvious.:smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-08-30, 02:34 PM
The plane is a modious strip. Is obvious.:smallbiggrin:

Klein Bottle, actually.

Jasdoif
2007-08-30, 03:05 PM
Klein Bottle, actually.And the sun is actually a side effect of where it passes through itself!

goat
2007-08-30, 03:17 PM
Are summon spells somehow restricted?

This is an interesting question. Summon Monster describes the creatures as originating from extra-planar sources in the fluff, while Summon Nature's Ally doesn't appear to (although it's quite capable of summoning extra-planar creatures). However, it doesn't say whether these creatures came from there NOW, or at some point in the past.

I suppose it would depend on whether you consider the summoned creatures as teleported from a location on the material plane, or plane-shifted in for a few rounds.


This universe sounds delightfully non-euclidean.

Dhavaer
2007-08-30, 07:26 PM
Summoning is unrestricted. Calling is less restricted than travel; if the moons aren't in the sky you can route the spell through the Plane of Shadow; it takes a lot longer but it's possible. Calling anything from the Outer Planes has to go through the Plane of Shadow, and if you do it too often the vashar might come and kill you. They're bastards like that.

'There is no other side' as in 'don't try to work it out if you don't want a cerebral haemorrhage, because it doesn't make sense with human perceptions'. It's not curved or anything like that at all.

Chronos
2007-08-30, 09:51 PM
'There is no other side' as in 'don't try to work it out if you don't want a cerebral haemorrhage, because it doesn't make sense with human perceptions'. It's not curved or anything like that at all.It's simpler than you think, actually... There are even a few things in our world which have only one side. Ever see the back side of a rainbow? That said, though, what happens if you dig a really deep hole? Do you just go through a heck of a lot of rock, or is there an impenetrable barrier at some depth? Likewise, what happens if you go out to the edge and step off?

Incidentally, if you happen to consider the Gate spell unbalancing (as many folks do), this world gives you the perfect fluff to disallow it. Just say that the six (and a half) existing gates put such a strain on the fabric of existance that any further ones are impossible.

Dhavaer
2007-08-31, 07:32 AM
The back side of a rainbow would either be the sun, or water in the air. If you dig a really deep hole you have a really deep hole. There is a bottomless pit that leads to the Plane of Shadow, but it doesn't do that because of depth, it does that because it was built that way. The north and south edges you can't step off; the north edge has a wall of some indestructible metal and the south a wall of indestructible ice. You can sail off the sea to the east or west, and you'll fall of the edge. I'm not sure what happens after that; probably you hit the limit of the plane and die. Either that or you land on the Plane of Shadow, because everything leads to the Plane of Shadow in this cosmology. It's like Rome.

I've already nerfed Gate a bit; it takes 10 minutes to cast if you want to call anything. Also, outsiders have issues with staying on the Prime; it kicks them out after a while.

Evil DM Mark3
2007-08-31, 07:44 AM
I can see not problems.

IF you wanted problems however:

Make the phase of the moon matter. On the night of the apropriate full moon all calling and summoning spells are Extended and Empowered. At the new moon htey don't work at all. Planar travel may only be possible if the moon is at least cresent, or half or even gibbious if you want to make it harder.

Gate, as the true exemplar, should not change. Gate WORKS, period.

If you really wanted to run with it then make there be a type of Lycanthrope for every moon. These lycanthropes are the mortal servants of the respective planes, if you do somthing like link moons to planes you have to make it matter, or the Players are going to ignore it.

Yakk
2007-08-31, 01:28 PM
So, if you want to have more fun with cosmology, some ideas:

Summon spells contain the true name of a creature. So a given summon spell summons a specific planar being. More accurately, the shadow of that being (this is what lets it work any time of day).

The Gate spells themselves also contain the name of a specific planar being: except the Gate spell brings the being itself, and not a shadow.

Naturally you cannot extract the name of the being from merely hearing the spell cast. You can, however, from the study of the written spell.

This creates an interesting dynamic with summoning: the being summoned is the same one every time the given spell is cast. Variants of the spell exist that summon different beings, naturally.